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Central Midfielders don't get in the opponents box


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Hello,

I like playing 4-3-3 with fb's (a) , holding dm (s) or (d) , 2 if's (a) and a tm (s) or f9. 
But i have some issues choosing my cm's. I would like them to organize midfield situations  Next to this, i want them to support the forwards and also get in the box with f.e. crossing plays.
I would think of using the rpm roles but I see that they won't get in the box but instead, camp outside it for long shot opportunities, when my full backs are crossing from the upper sides of the field.
Is this really the situation? Or do they well get in the box in cases?
I thought of using the b2b roles, but i think these players don't really organize in midfield like playmakers do.

I really need some help cause i can't actually find the right role for utilising my preferred midfield combinations.

Thanks.

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You are right that an RPM will generally not get into the box. If you are looking for playmaker (or playmaker-like) roles that still get into the box, I think you have a few options:

  1. Advanced Playmaker (support or attack) with the "Get further forward" PI added
  2. CM (support or attack) and then add various PIs to encourage more playmaking if you'd like. If 'support', then perhaps add 'get further forward' PI as well
  3. Mezzala (support or attack)... either has 'get further forward' baked in, so they will definitely get in the box. On attack, though, probably not enough involvement in build-up for what you are looking for
  4. Focus on getting players with the right PPMs... PPMs like "arrives in box late" or "gets into opposition area" (less so for that one, since I think they'll tend to sit outside the box) will lead to the midfielder getting into the box at least some times, somewhat regardless of the role

The other, more general, thing to keep in mind is the interaction of team mentality and player mentality. You haven't specified your mentality, but that can make a difference to players regardless of specific roles/duties assigned

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14 minutes ago, ozilthegunner said:

You are right that an RPM will generally not get into the box. If you are looking for playmaker (or playmaker-like) roles that still get into the box, I think you have a few options:

  1. Advanced Playmaker (support or attack) with the "Get further forward" PI added
  2. CM (support or attack) and then add various PIs to encourage more playmaking if you'd like. If 'support', then perhaps add 'get further forward' PI as well
  3. Mezzala (support or attack)... either has 'get further forward' baked in, so they will definitely get in the box. On attack, though, probably not enough involvement in build-up for what you are looking for
  4. Focus on getting players with the right PPMs... PPMs like "arrives in box late" or "gets into opposition area" (less so for that one, since I think they'll tend to sit outside the box) will lead to the midfielder getting into the box at least some times, somewhat regardless of the role

The other, more general, thing to keep in mind is the interaction of team mentality and player mentality. You haven't specified your mentality, but that can make a difference to players regardless of specific roles/duties assigned

Thanks for your repy.

I also thought of a Central midfielder with get further forward, but then he makes more off the ball runs forward rather then organizing the midfield, not?
I really think FM should make an PI like "get in to box" wich should make this available, because i think a CM doens't play like an AP or RPM. Players will not "focus play" on cm's like they do on RPM's, and the fact that the RPM never get into the box,
i find very disappointing.

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51 minutes ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

Thanks for your repy.

I also thought of a Central midfielder with get further forward, but then he makes more off the ball runs forward rather then organizing the midfield, not?
I really think FM should make an PI like "get in to box" wich should make this available, because i think a CM doens't play like an AP or RPM. Players will not "focus play" on cm's like they do on RPM's, and the fact that the RPM never get into the box,
i find very disappointing.

Yes about more 'off the ball' runs with 'get further forward', but you can temper that too with making the duty a support duty, which will encourage being involved in build-up. I left out the idea that you could put 'get further forward' on an RPM as well (I think)

But it sounds to me like you want something that really makes no sense... a playmaker is not expected to get in the box, since they'd have no space to manage play there. Typically, you link a playmaker role with a runner role, and it is the runner role that is more likely to get into the box. This vaguely reminds me of a discussion on these forums some 3-4 years ago where someone wanted something similar to what you are asking (a playmaker who does non-playmaker things)

However, you keep talking about 'organizing the midfield' and seemingly assuming that only playmaker roles do that. But that just isn't true. Basically any 'support' or 'defend' duty in midfield will help with organizing the midfield. A CM(s) certainly will.

I also think you should be focusing more on PPMs... that is basically the main way to get a player to play a role in an unusual way - pair the role with PPMs that make it play different

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5 hours ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

Hello,

I like playing 4-3-3 with fb's (a) , holding dm (s) or (d) , 2 if's (a) and a tm (s) or f9. 
But i have some issues choosing my cm's. I would like them to organize midfield situations  Next to this, i want them to support the forwards and also get in the box with f.e. crossing plays.
I would think of using the rpm roles but I see that they won't get in the box but instead, camp outside it for long shot opportunities, when my full backs are crossing from the upper sides of the field.
Is this really the situation? Or do they well get in the box in cases?
I thought of using the b2b roles, but i think these players don't really organize in midfield like playmakers do.

I really need some help cause i can't actually find the right role for utilising my preferred midfield combinations.

Thanks.

The problem is that any role will behave differently within different tactical setups (apart from player traits, which will normally affect behavior of a player). Therefore, without taking a look at your tactic as a whole, all we can do is just speculate and nothing else. 

For example, I sometimes see even my holding DM coming as high up as the edge of the opposition area, simply because circumstances on the pitch allow him to do that relatively safely. 

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4 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

Yes about more 'off the ball' runs with 'get further forward', but you can temper that too with making the duty a support duty, which will encourage being involved in build-up. I left out the idea that you could put 'get further forward' on an RPM as well (I think)

But it sounds to me like you want something that really makes no sense... a playmaker is not expected to get in the box, since they'd have no space to manage play there. Typically, you link a playmaker role with a runner role, and it is the runner role that is more likely to get into the box. This vaguely reminds me of a discussion on these forums some 3-4 years ago where someone wanted something similar to what you are asking (a playmaker who does non-playmaker things)

However, you keep talking about 'organizing the midfield' and seemingly assuming that only playmaker roles do that. But that just isn't true. Basically any 'support' or 'defend' duty in midfield will help with organizing the midfield. A CM(s) certainly will.

I also think you should be focusing more on PPMs... that is basically the main way to get a player to play a role in an unusual way - pair the role with PPMs that make it play different

Okay i seem to be little convinced with choosing cm (s) + get further forward and the right ppms. But to add: with a rpm you can’t add get further forward.
But maybe i can choose the correct ppm’s with rpms again..

thanks


 

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57 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

The problem is that any role will behave differently within different tactical setups (apart from player traits, which will normally affect behavior of a player). Therefore, without taking a look at your tactic as a whole, all we can do is just speculate and nothing else. 

For example, I sometimes see even my holding DM coming as high up as the edge of the opposition area, simply because circumstances on the pitch allow him to do that relatively safely. 

Hi,

my preffered tactic would look like this in general, with the if' and f9 roaming.
do you think it's an okay tactic and wich ppms i would look for with the rpms?

image.png.8d2a3c25dbf5752ed2c9547a69463f8a.png

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4 hours ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

Hi,

my preffered tactic would look like this in general, with the if' and f9 roaming.
do you think it's an okay tactic and wich ppms i would look for with the rpms?

image.png.8d2a3c25dbf5752ed2c9547a69463f8a.png

Traits will be very important for penetrating through the middle for RPMs and your flanks had better track back or opposition wings will run riot there. Your DM will have a hard time joining the build-up play and getting the second balls thus recycling possession. There will be a gap in the middle of the final third and on the flanks.

Considering removing Be More Expressive. Individual mentalities are already higher letting them improvise things. To sum up, it's too risky for my liking. You may concede goals against teams with two strikers and/or fast wingers.

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5 hours ago, frukox said:

Traits will be very important for penetrating through the middle for RPMs and your flanks had better track back or opposition wings will run riot there. Your DM will have a hard time joining the build-up play and getting the second balls thus recycling possession. There will be a gap in the middle of the final third and on the flanks.

Considering removing Be More Expressive. Individual mentalities are already higher letting them improvise things. To sum up, it's too risky for my liking. You may concede goals against teams with two strikers and/or fast wingers.

After trying rpm's with arriving late in opponents area, i saw again that they still won't get in the box, disappointingly.
I finally am convinced to choose 2 bbm's with maybe ppm dictates tempo, to also make them more playmaking.
I still think that FM should make a PI "gets in the box" or simply let them sometimes do it, because playmakers who really "never" get in the box with crossing plays in real life is not realistic.

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1 hour ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

After trying rpm's with arriving late in opponents area, i saw again that they still won't get in the box, disappointingly.
I finally am convinced to choose 2 bbm's with maybe ppm dictates tempo, to also make them more playmaking.
I still think that FM should make a PI "gets in the box" or simply let them sometimes do it, because playmakers who really "never" get in the box with crossing plays in real life is not realistic.

Playmakers are not meant to get in the box on the end of things, they are the providers for the runners who get into the box. 

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33 minutes ago, Hilly1979 said:

Playmakers are not meant to get in the box on the end of things, they are the providers for the runners who get into the box. 

i don't think this is true. I saw that players like Kroos, Iniesta, Xavi, .. and a lot more, just get in the box to finish plays, while they played just the on the cm's playmaking support roles, which was easy to see.
In FM, this NEVER happens, they can only score from outside or with direct free kicks, or with free kicks/corners when they are in.

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2 hours ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

After trying rpm's with arriving late in opponents area, i saw again that they still won't get in the box, disappointingly.
I finally am convinced to choose 2 bbm's with maybe ppm dictates tempo, to also make them more playmaking.
I still think that FM should make a PI "gets in the box" or simply let them sometimes do it, because playmakers who really "never" get in the box with crossing plays in real life is not realistic.

So use BBMs or CMS with roam from position who have those mentioned traits above and raise their mentality by one notch I think they are attracted to the ball and go there rather being late runners into the box. Maybe this time it could work in the engine in the way you wanted them to play.

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1 hour ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

i don't think this is true. I saw that players like Kroos, Iniesta, Xavi, .. and a lot more, just get in the box to finish plays, while they played just the on the cm's playmaking support roles, which was easy to see.
In FM, this NEVER happens, they can only score from outside or with direct free kicks, or with free kicks/corners when they are in.

Iniesta maybe but Xavi and kroos mostly camps outside of the box. And as a playmaker their main job is to provide options on the ball which they cannot do if they run into the box at every opportunity. Sure they do enter the box occasionally but so does the playmaker roles in FM. And their goal scoring record and their heat maps reflect their play style. And who says a playmaker must be a playmaker role in FM? A CM(a) can be a playmaker if you want to.

Edited by zyfon5
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If you want a player who gets into the box, scores and assists you want a CM(A). The player I have in this role has double digit goals and leads my team in assists in my current season. Of course you need to set things up around him to get the most out of him. A player does not need to be a playmaker to get assists. He needs to be in the right area of the pitch to pick the right pass, with players making good runs around him. 

A RPM is not going to get in the box to score, because that is not the job of a playmaker. 

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So everyone has been repeating the same obvious point - playmakers rarely (if ever) enter the box. This is especially true of the deep-lying playmaker and the roaming playmaker. Additionally, as everyone is also noting - you can have a player with playmaking abilities play a non-playmaking role (like CM(a)) and accomplish all you want.

The only other thing I'll mention is that an AP(a) will certainly wind up in the box on occasion. Again, not their main deal since you cannot really playmake from inside the box, but the AP(a) is probably the only playmaker role that will get into the box somewhat regularly. So, use that if you really want a playmaker role to get in the box

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58 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'm literally playing around with a Segundo Volante in a 4-2-3-1, he has loads of traffic in front of him & he'll get into the box no worries. This on a balanced mentality too 

A Segundo Volante is a role I want to explore so badly, but I rarely if ever play with 2 DMCs. Maybe I should try to make some kind of 4231 deep. 

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13 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

A Segundo Volante is a role I want to explore so badly, but I rarely if ever play with 2 DMCs. Maybe I should try to make some kind of 4231 deep. 

Man, it's a sweet role, so much fun to watch. I'm running an asymmetric 4-2-3-1 with the one CM in the DMC slot. I hate asymmetric formations but I'm just mucking about

It's hard as hell finding SV in the game though, you'd have to retrain BTB types to play DMC 

 Untitled.png.077676c3ac5f7f06d36ca0bc3a9d03d6.png

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19 hours ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

image.png.8d2a3c25dbf5752ed2c9547a69463f8a.png

 

19 hours ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

my preffered tactic would look like this in general, with the if' and f9 roaming.
do you think it's an okay tactic

Definitely not my cup of tea, given that I am "obsessed" with tactical balance, especially in terms of roles and duties. But at the end of the day, who am I to judge?

You seem to be trying to counterbalance an otherwise very aggressive setup with possession-friendly TIs such as PoD and WBiB, but I am not sure if it can work that way. Not least because it looks contradictory. 

19 hours ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

wich ppms i would look for with the rpms?

Gets forward whenever possible and gets into opposition area look like the most obvious ones for what you want to achieve. Especially the latter. 

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1 hour ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

Respond to all:

I just don't find it realistic that a rpm or ap s will never enter the box in wich situation it might be, even if they have the right ppm to do so (because i tried).
 

i think this is something SI should evaluate, hopefully.

I previously suggested an AP(a) would likely get in the box. Just want to confirm that my AP(a) (playing the Midfield strata) does get in the box quite a bit. Generally, only midfielders on 'attack' duty are going to get in the box, no matter their role, so if you really want this just use an AP(a) and you can add a PI like 'roam from position' if you want him to move about more like a RPM

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On 13/12/2020 at 20:14, sporadicsmiles said:

A Segundo Volante is a role I want to explore so badly, but I rarely if ever play with 2 DMCs. Maybe I should try to make some kind of 4231 deep. 

It is a fun role to play with. I have a 42211 tactic in my third tactic slot, a Klopp Dortmund inspired once, which I chuck out from time to time which features a DLPsu next to a SVsu. I feel that the long shots this role scores from time to time are programmed to happen :D 

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3 hours ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

Respond to all:

I just don't find it realistic that a rpm or ap s will never enter the box in wich situation it might be, even if they have the right ppm to do so (because i tried).
 

i think this is something SI should evaluate, hopefully.

My AP(s) managed to get quite a few goals in the box in FM20. You just need to have the correct tactical set up. Not sure if anything has been changed in FM21.

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12 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

My AP(s) managed to get quite a few goals in the box in FM20. You just need to have the correct tactical set up. Not sure if anything has been changed in FM21.

So does my DLP(S), but that is not really what he is supposed to do.

13 hours ago, Justified said:

It is a fun role to play with. I have a 42211 tactic in my third tactic slot, a Klopp Dortmund inspired once, which I chuck out from time to time which features a DLPsu next to a SVsu. I feel that the long shots this role scores from time to time are programmed to happen :D 

I thinking of doing some kind of Sam Allardyce inspired tactical thread at some point based on a 4231, so maybe I will make it deep and use a SV as another player to fight for the second ball. 

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