Jump to content

Advice Needed - Possession/Tika Taka - No Goals


Recommended Posts

I've tinkered slightly with the set up many times over the season but I simply cannot score goals.

Games 22, Position 9th, Goals, 24, Goals Against 19

For some reason we have been really good defensively but cannot unlock any teams going forward. Does anyone have any ideas for what I could change in this setup to help. I was going for something Guardiola Barca-esq with an emphasis on really dominating teams and carving them open with good play.

 

image.png.c12e32ac4f7be4c80fb27e0c79f8c645.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, MattLDempsey said:

I've tinkered slightly with the set up many times over the season but I simply cannot score goals.

Games 22, Position 9th, Goals, 24, Goals Against 19

For some reason we have been really good defensively but cannot unlock any teams going forward. Does anyone have any ideas for what I could change in this setup to help. I was going for something Guardiola Barca-esq with an emphasis on really dominating teams and carving them open with good play.

 

image.png.c12e32ac4f7be4c80fb27e0c79f8c645.png

I don't feel like Iniesta was a AP on attack with a Guardiola, I would use a Mezzala on Support and Abidal/Mazwell was not a WB on attack, I would say they were a WB on Support or even FB on Support, that in terms of roles.

I would change the defensive line and engagement line, that means much higher DL and higer LOE

Link to post
Share on other sites

Quite a few things I would change here personally.

Drop Focus Through The Middle. As a top team I don't think it makes much sense to utilise this instruction when opponents will happily pack the middle of the pitch against you (being Arsenal). 

Wide to Fairly Narrow - so your players are closer together for the shorter passing options. Wingbacks will still provide adequate width.

Drop tempo from Higher to Standard (default), possibly even Slower. Higher tempo may be too demanding for your players and lead to unforced errors. 

Drop Hold Shape. You already have a number of instructions that slow play down and this may be overkill on top of everything else.

I don't know that you need all of those out of possession instructions honestly.

SK-At to SK-Su - A sweeper keeper on attack doesn't make much sense in a tiki taka or guardiola-esque system. They're about getting attacks going fast/initiating counter attacks with more direct play. 

The flanks probably need a rethink. Ideally you'd want one support and attack duty for each flank, but you've got the very exposed right flank with two attack duties (and compounded by the overlap right instruction).

AP-At is another role/duty combo that doesn't make much sense for a possession oriented side. They're all about picking up the ball and driving toward the defense. Mez-Su as others have said would be a better option, but also CM-Su or even B2B-Su.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also trying to develop a similar tactic, also with Arsenal (although my team is the real one - I disabled the first window) and I also ran into some similar problems as you (over time, though, I was destroying teams like Chelsea and Liverpool for a short bit before becoming impotent)

I think, in general, you just have way too many instructions and packing way too many people near the box. Also, I found the 'play through the middle', while sometimes producing some great Wenger-esque goals, often led to no shots as we just packed everyone so centrally and there was no space.

I would suggest maybe 'starting again', at least in terms of TIs. Just something like the following to begin:

Balanced mentality with higher tempo. Play out of back (or distribute to CBs/FBs if you prefer) and just a higher d-line (but leave LOE at standard)

 

As for the advice I received and translating it into what you have... definitely no WB(a) on the right with the attack duty for Auba. Perhaps a MEZ(a) on the left CM and AP(s) on the right CM (it was suggested to me to do AP(s) on the left, with a raum/IF(a) ahead and a Mez(a) on the right with an IW(s) ahead... so bit different from yours, but trying to translate the ideas)

I also haven't tried the F9 in FM21, but in FM20 I found that while he was involved in build-up in great ways, he basically never scored. Not sure if you want him to, but if so I have had great luck with Laca as a complete forward (both support and attack). But, again, I played with Auba (or Nelson) on the left as either a Raum or IF(a) and Pepe or Saka on the right as an IW(s) [Pepe being my top player in terms of assists and second in goals behind Laca]

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, josel15 said:

I don't feel like Iniesta was a AP on attack with a Guardiola, I would use a Mezzala on Support and Abidal/Mazwell was not a WB on attack, I would say they were a WB on Support or even FB on Support, that in terms of roles.

I would change the defensive line and engagement line, that means much higher DL and higer LOE

Yes, I do agree with that, I think perhaps in my tinkerings I had made some of the players too attack minded.

I must say, Aouar as a AP (A) has been one of the better players however it certainly hasn't been playing the way I would like him to play. I will try as a Mezz

8 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

You may want to check this nearby thread: FM21 - Total Football, A club dna project with positional play - Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com)

I agree with switching your AP to a Mezzala/S. I'd also try Lacazette as an AF/A or P/A.

I will check out those threads. Regarding Lacazette, I plan to replace with a player who fits my tactical style at the end of the season. I am hesitant to use those roles above because I very much model the position on prime Messi, a player who can drop deep and form a diamond with the players behind whilst also being the main attacking threat. Again, this has been unsuccessful so far and Lacazette has barely scored.

7 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Quite a few things I would change here personally.

Drop Focus Through The Middle. As a top team I don't think it makes much sense to utilise this instruction when opponents will happily pack the middle of the pitch against you (being Arsenal). 

Wide to Fairly Narrow - so your players are closer together for the shorter passing options. Wingbacks will still provide adequate width.

Drop tempo from Higher to Standard (default), possibly even Slower. Higher tempo may be too demanding for your players and lead to unforced errors. 

Drop Hold Shape. You already have a number of instructions that slow play down and this may be overkill on top of everything else.

I don't know that you need all of those out of possession instructions honestly.

SK-At to SK-Su - A sweeper keeper on attack doesn't make much sense in a tiki taka or guardiola-esque system. They're about getting attacks going fast/initiating counter attacks with more direct play. 

The flanks probably need a rethink. Ideally you'd want one support and attack duty for each flank, but you've got the very exposed right flank with two attack duties (and compounded by the overlap right instruction).

AP-At is another role/duty combo that doesn't make much sense for a possession oriented side. They're all about picking up the ball and driving toward the defense. Mez-Su as others have said would be a better option, but also CM-Su or even B2B-Su.

I agree, with dropping Focus Through Middle, the Barca I am modelling used to create triangles in wide positions. I will also narrow the width, this is something I have always had trouble understanding because in my mind it would really depend on the phase of play.

Another one is Tempo. I usually run this lower or very low, however I figured this is a key issue with me struggling to break down teams. I will try on standard for time-being.

5 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

I'm also trying to develop a similar tactic, also with Arsenal (although my team is the real one - I disabled the first window) and I also ran into some similar problems as you (over time, though, I was destroying teams like Chelsea and Liverpool for a short bit before becoming impotent)

I think, in general, you just have way too many instructions and packing way too many people near the box. Also, I found the 'play through the middle', while sometimes producing some great Wenger-esque goals, often led to no shots as we just packed everyone so centrally and there was no space.

I would suggest maybe 'starting again', at least in terms of TIs. Just something like the following to begin:

Balanced mentality with higher tempo. Play out of back (or distribute to CBs/FBs if you prefer) and just a higher d-line (but leave LOE at standard)

 

As for the advice I received and translating it into what you have... definitely no WB(a) on the right with the attack duty for Auba. Perhaps a MEZ(a) on the left CM and AP(s) on the right CM (it was suggested to me to do AP(s) on the left, with a raum/IF(a) ahead and a Mez(a) on the right with an IW(s) ahead... so bit different from yours, but trying to translate the ideas)

I also haven't tried the F9 in FM21, but in FM20 I found that while he was involved in build-up in great ways, he basically never scored. Not sure if you want him to, but if so I have had great luck with Laca as a complete forward (both support and attack). But, again, I played with Auba (or Nelson) on the left as either a Raum or IF(a) and Pepe or Saka on the right as an IW(s) [Pepe being my top player in terms of assists and second in goals behind Laca]

I think you are right, I have over complicated things.

 

I have taken on the advice and tried to simplify the tactic a little bit. I am still not entirely sure about the wide player roles.

While the F9 should be this all encompassing 'baller' the RW (which would have been Sanchez for Guardiola, provided another direct attacking threat whereas the LW maybe not so direct.

I feel like the Barcelona of the time was far more attacking minded on the right flank whereas the left flank was perhaps more methodical in buildup. Thoughts?

 

image.png.e1de115f27963c1eeafac313730455ab.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, MattLDempsey said:

I have taken on the advice and tried to simplify the tactic a little bit. I am still not entirely sure about the wide player roles.

While the F9 should be this all encompassing 'baller' the RW (which would have been Sanchez for Guardiola, provided another direct attacking threat whereas the LW maybe not so direct.

I feel like the Barcelona of the time was far more attacking minded on the right flank whereas the left flank was perhaps more methodical in buildup. Thoughts?

 

image.png.e1de115f27963c1eeafac313730455ab.png

Yes. In harder games Abidal would not go so often on attack and form a backline of three with Piqué and Puyol.

I also remember the left wingers of Pep being more finishers than the right one. What I mean with this is that Villa, or previously, Henry were really wide on the buildup and did not touch the ball until the final third were they were goalscorers. Funnily enough, I don't really remember the right winger being much in play either, but being more inside (not much tho), because Dani Alves was a train on the right and was almost a winger.

There was a time that Pep was also playing with 3 Central Defenders.

In his 4-3-3 tho, and yours, I think that with Arsenal is easier to replicate 08/09 Barcelona. You have a very good and mobile striker in Laca as your Eto'o, Auba could be your Henry and Pepe as Messi, but well, not remotelly as good.

So, I think both 08/09 Barcelona and 10/11 Barcelona (the one you are trying to replicate) both have the same roles on defence and midfield.

On attack tho, this is how I would set them up.
08/09 Barcelona:
LW - Inside Forward, support (get further forward, stay wide).

RW - Trequartist (I mean, it is Messi after all :P )

ST - Hard one but DLF (at) or an AF. He sometimes came deep for a 1-2, but his main job was to mainly make the CD's fix in their position and allow space for Iniesta/Xavi/Messi to exploit the middle.

 

10/11 Barcelona
LW - Inside Forward, attack, stay wide, to replicate Villa.

RW - perhaps Inverted Winger on attack, no PI's, besides making him press the opposing full back, but Villa didn't press as much as Pedro, do no mark opposition FB for him.

Messi - False 9 or Treq, but to have some press, go with F9.

Hope it works for you  :)

Edited by josel15
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, MattLDempsey said:

image.png.e1de115f27963c1eeafac313730455ab.png

How has this set-up been going?

I've now settled on something similar, but finding it also quite sterile (similar to what you're finding). Been trying to find out what I can do add some real punch to my play while keeping the possession styled (lower tempo) build-up...

Link to post
Share on other sites

The tactic is not scoring because there is a lack of goal threats. The only player who is going to regularly be attacking the box is the right winger. Everyone else is supporting build up play.

Let's use the F9 as an example of what I mean. He is going to drop deep. Why? What purpose is he serving there? Normally you drop a F9 in deep so he can link up play, create space and play in other players onto goal. The problem is nobody is looking to move into the space he has vacated. You have nobody getting beyond him centrally, and one player on the flank. This is really not that conducive to doing anything other than having the ball a lot and letting the opposition get into a solid shape. 

You have defined how you play, now you have to define how you want to score. Who is going to be your main goal threat? Who else do you expect to score? What goes do you expect them to score? Who is going to assist? How? Once you know that you can start to define your attacking roles. If you set up your attacking roles to mainly help in possession, then you will see them mainly help in possession and you will score fewer goals. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Step in the right direction I think, but still suggest considering the balance of your flank duties, by having one support and one attack on each side. 

11 hours ago, josel15 said:

 

ST - Hard one but DLF (at) or an AF. He sometimes came deep for a 1-2, but his main job was to mainly make the CD's fix in their position and allow space for Iniesta/Xavi/Messi to exploit the middle.

:)

For a lot of Eto'o's time at Barcelona, I would probably characterize him as a pressing forward on attack, to be honest.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually if he focuses play through the middle his flanks will open up because of the space and his wider players become a bigger threat. I would change Bellerin from attack duty to support or even FB on support. 

If he plays as a wingback he will drive down the flanks trying to cross and do a lot of things, and he may run out of options thus see his crosses blocked.  If he is FB(S) he could play passes down the line for IF(A)

Focus can be something you switch depending on what the opposition is doing. If you focus play down the flanks the overloads there will free up space in the middle.  You also don't need to be using a much higher line of engagement otherwise you end up trying to create space in a very confined area. My advice drop that to higher line of engagement.

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Actually if he focuses play through the middle his flanks will open up because of the space and his wider players become a bigger threat. I would change Bellerin from attack duty to support or even FB on support. 

If he plays as a wingback he will drive down the flanks trying to cross and do a lot of things, and he may run out of options thus see his crosses blocked.  If he is FB(S) he could play passes down the line for IF(A)

Focus can be something you switch depending on what the opposition is doing. If you focus play down the flanks the overloads there will free up space in the middle.  You also don't need to be using a much higher line of engagement otherwise you end up trying to create space in a very confined area. My advice drop that to higher line of engagement.

I was weirdly looking at you channel earlier today, trying to see if you've done anything recent on possession v penetration. One thing that stood out was your 4-2-3-1 with Not Forest and that you use a high tempo with pass into space. (I use lower tempo and don't use pass into space)

Was keen to ask how you balance attack duties/penetration with support duties/possession. This is something I've found particularly difficult with this year's game. I currently feel that too many attack duties and the team becomes too direct and wasteful. However too many support duties and the team becomes toothless. (I, like the OP, only have one attack duty on my right flank. The rest of the team are on support duties and looking to overload the left flank)

Edited by Luizinho
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd scrap all of your TIs & add the ones that are absolutely necessary 

What style are you going for? Work from there then think about your roles & what they do

Duals Wingbacks, both stay wide, run on the ball & look to cross, do you need two? WBIB with wingbacks? Does that make sense?

Dual BPDs, both play risky passes? Are both needed to play risky passes? Risky passes run the risk of turning over possession, runners on the ball also risk losing the ball

Jack Wilshire? is he good enough? DLP is a relatively conservative role in that system, is he doing what you want? Could he be an extra body going forward? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...