I don't understand the free agents thinking/logic in this transfer or most others

[Davey Boy]

what am i missing here?

i got promoted in my first season from the Vanarama League up to League 2 and in pre-season there is a good free agent who i wanted to sign he wanted so much in wages over 5k in fact, talks break down, he then goes and signs for a team in the Vanarama League for just over 1k when i was offering him more plus future incentives, also the club he went to are not on his favourite list or any personnel.

 

[robbie.owen333]

We see it all the time don't we?

We are told no transfer bias against the human player - but the AI can seemingly get good players for affordable prices and normal wages

[Preveza]

Can you provide a save game file? 

[Bruce Drundrige]

2 hours ago, Davey Boy said:

what am i missing here?

i got promoted in my first season from the Vanarama League up to League 2 and in pre-season there is a good free agent who i wanted to sign he wanted so much in wages over 5k in fact, talks break down, he then goes and signs for a team in the Vanarama League for just over 1k when i was offering him more plus future incentives, also the club he went to are not on his favourite list or any personnel.

 

This is a dig at you as such, but maybe he didn't want to play for you or his agent didn't like you? Or he might have a local connection to the team he signed for (if that's a thing in the game)? 

[samdiatmh]

do people generally have VERY little idea that money doesn't necessarily matter to stuff like this?

you can pay me as much as you want, but I'm not taking my old job back - I took a paycut to take my current role, and I'm FAR happier than before
of course... I must be broken because I'd openly turn down my old role if it was offered to me, but there's WAY more to life than money - particularly if the new club is based to the location for his old one (moving across country isn't exactly easy/cheap)

of course, you're probably treating them like a faceless robot, but moving a whole family (wife / kids) isn't as easy as "yep, these will take me, let's go to RandomXYZ city"
I always think of young players "retiring" as them getting a non-football related job (oh... football didn't work out, so I've become an office worker), which provides FAR more of a realistic viewpoint than "game broken, 30yo retires due to lack of interest"

Edited December 2, 2020 by samdiatmh

[HUNT3R]

Neil has posted about this before. Maybe it'll help to understand these situations a bit better:

Quote

 

Yeah it's more a combination of factors, some of which have already been raised above. The amount of money the club has, the quality of living available in the area where the club is, the reputation of the club and the players at the club, the salary of other players at the club etc.

So in theory, say you had a rather poor player (let's say Gary Footballer) on fairly high wages, other players will look at them and think along the lines of "if Gary Footballer is worth that much, I'm worth way more" and potentially will ask for more. 

Always think of the type of contract you're offering a player in regards to your squad rather than that individual player. It's very easy to have wage expectations from players creep up if you start paying players more.

Also something else to bear in mind - generally players already under contract will take more risks in what they expect to be paid, especially those with a decent amount of time left on their deal. They're already relatively financially secure, so they are in a position where they can ask for more.

Players on a free, unless they're in high demand and have lots of interest, generally will accept less.  Although you may have to negotiate a bit, especially if the agent is demanding. In your instance above you may have found that Jennings would have accepted or even asked for a bit less once they were on a free, assuming there wasn't that much interest. However as soon as other clubs start sniffing around again they will use that to their advantage to make sure they get a good deal looking at both finances and potentially a higher squad status. 

It all sounds quite logical and fairly straight-forward to explain, but in terms of creating the code to work in this manner it's much more complex! 

 

 

[majesticeternity]

I feel like one of the main issues is lack of explanation from the game. There’s no indication of why a player declines. Maybe the player contract negotiation should show that, such as player not based in country, player doesn’t wish to move, doesn’t want to play for relegation fodder, hates the color red... I dunno, things like that to help people understand. 
 

 

[SeaCarrot]

Yeah, maybe the new function where you can ask the agent availability of the player, could also say “this guy isn’t really interested in moving to your area” or whatever so you can think to offer more. 

[michaeltmurrayuk]

7 hours ago, majesticeternity said:

I feel like one of the main issues is lack of explanation from the game. There’s no indication of why a player declines. Maybe the player contract negotiation should show that, such as player not based in country, player doesn’t wish to move, doesn’t want to play for relegation fodder, hates the color red... I dunno, things like that to help people understand. 
 

 

The game does (unless it's been removed in FM21?) flag reasons for why a player signs for a club - if a player won't enter in to talks with you they'll say why, whilst the confirmation screen will generally tell you why a player picked a certain team, also in some cases players will come back to you either asking for more money if they have another offer or if to let you know they are willing to talk again if talks broke down.

[robbie.owen333]

13 hours ago, samdiatmh said:

do people generally have VERY little idea that money doesn't necessarily matter to stuff like this?

you can pay me as much as you want, but I'm not taking my old job back - I took a paycut to take my current role, and I'm FAR happier than before
of course... I must be broken because I'd openly turn down my old role if it was offered to me, but there's WAY more to life than money - particularly if the new club is based to the location for his old one (moving across country isn't exactly easy/cheap)

of course, you're probably treating them like a faceless robot, but moving a whole family (wife / kids) isn't as easy as "yep, these will take me, let's go to RandomXYZ city"
I always think of young players "retiring" as them getting a non-football related job (oh... football didn't work out, so I've become an office worker), which provides FAR more of a realistic viewpoint than "game broken, 30yo retires due to lack of interest"

Yeah, but he's talking about a team in the football league (rather than the conference) for 5 times the salary.

Interesting point re. moving.  OP - is the team local to him and are you far away.

Personally I doubt that is the reason, and I do believe there is AI bias.  Not deliberate perhaps, but something somewhere within the game that helps AI to AI signings  helps transfer fees/wages hover closer to the average for that players CA and reputation.

[JordanMilly]

5 minutes ago, robbie.owen333 said:

Yeah, but he's talking about a team in the football league (rather than the conference) for 5 times the salary.

Interesting point re. moving.  OP - is the team local to him and are you far away.

Personally I doubt that is the reason.

I wouldn't doubt it - in previous versions of FM, while doing lower league teams that made their way up, I had potential signees taking lower paid positions in lower league teams because it was closer to where they were from and it explicitly said it was because the wages weren't good enough to justify them moving. I can fully see a National League/League 2 level player deciding they're happy taking a lower paid role if the wages offered don't offset the hassle of selling their house, buying/renting a new one, moving their kid into a new school, etc.

[kiwityke]

13 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

I wouldn't doubt it - in previous versions of FM, while doing lower league teams that made their way up, I had potential signees taking lower paid positions in lower league teams because it was closer to where they were from and it explicitly said it was because the wages weren't good enough to justify them moving. I can fully see a National League/League 2 level player deciding they're happy taking a lower paid role if the wages offered don't offset the hassle of selling their house, buying/renting a new one, moving their kid into a new school, etc.

In this guy's example though the difference in wages in one year is 202k pounds...

Over a 4 year deal thats over 800k pounds thats life changing money that you'd be bonkers not to move for.

If we were talking the difference between 1.2k a week and 1.5k a week this argument would hold water but for over 200k a year...I dunno if you are married but most wives would be furious you ain't taking that pay rise.

(Although as an aside Luke Chadwick on the under the cosh podcast actually said he spent most of his career playing close enough to Cambridge to commute because he just didn't wanna leave his hometown, its why he spent years at MK Dons)

[kevgaleuk]

22 hours ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

The game does (unless it's been removed in FM21?) flag reasons for why a player signs for a club - if a player won't enter in to talks with you they'll say why, whilst the confirmation screen will generally tell you why a player picked a certain team, also in some cases players will come back to you either asking for more money if they have another offer or if to let you know they are willing to talk again if talks broke down.

I think what majesticeternity is saying holds water though - yes there are little lines here and there but I suspect that even if its the agent doing it courtesy dictates a player advising a club he is rejecting why (and these might be bulls*** obviously) but its something lacking in that part of the game. Person X has decided to reject the chance of moving to your club because he didn't feel you wanted him enough (money or squad status perhaps), sees a quicker pathway to the first team, wants to stay closer to his family & friends. Its a small thing but for me, personally, just adds a little bit of realism

Thinking about this topic and the Alan Shearer / Man Utd transfer saga springs to mind - chances are he probably did accept lower wages to sign for his boyhood club and he has said since that he felt obliged to explain why to Fergie...

Edited December 3, 2020 by kevgaleuk

[michaeltmurrayuk]

1 hour ago, kevgaleuk said:

I think what majesticeternity is saying holds water though - yes there are little lines here and there but I suspect that even if its the agent doing it courtesy dictates a player advising a club he is rejecting why (and these might be bulls*** obviously) but its something lacking in that part of the game. Person X has decided to reject the chance of moving to your club because he didn't feel you wanted him enough (money or squad status perhaps), sees a quicker pathway to the first team, wants to stay closer to his family & friends. Its a small thing but for me, personally, just adds a little bit of realism

Thinking about this topic and the Alan Shearer / Man Utd transfer saga springs to mind - chances are he probably did accept lower wages to sign for his boyhood club and he has said since that he felt obliged to explain why to Fergie...

The game does do that though, the only difference in your example is the game says why they signed for someone instead of why they rejected you - so when a player accepts an offer the confirmation message will say he joined the club for money/first team football/the area/manager rep etc...

If you want a Private Chat/Interaction thing where the player approaches you to say he's turning you down due to X then it's worth sticking that in the Feature Requests Forum: https://community.sigames.com/forum/680-football-manager-feature-requests/

[kevgaleuk]

2 minutes ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

The game does do that though, the only difference in your example is the game says why they signed for someone instead of why they rejected you - so when a player accepts an offer the confirmation message will say he joined the club for money/first team football/the area/manager rep etc...

If you want a Private Chat/Interaction thing where the player approaches you to say he's turning you down due to X then it's worth sticking that in the Feature Requests Forum: https://community.sigames.com/forum/680-football-manager-feature-requests/

Completely fair point and you have actually suggested what I was thinking RE utilising the new interaction capability

[goranm]

Here is an example from my save for which I think the various factors mentioned by Neil don't work as intended.

Context:

In April of season 2 I signed CR7 on a free as a Star Player on a 1-year deal. His reason for joining me was my position in the league. I was winner of Serie A in season 1, but at the time of CR7 signing a deal I was 2nd, with Juventus being 1st. This is more-or-less reasonable because Juventus didn't offer him a contract, they've actually transfer-listed him for refusing to sign a contract, and no-one else offered one.

End of season 2 I'm the Serie A champion and made it to the final of the Champions League, which I lost.

Present:

I'm in January of season 3 with Milan, so CR7's first season with me. I'm first in the league, qualified for 1st round of the Champions League with ease, CR7 scored 20 in 17. PSG offers him a contract - I counter it. His requests: essentially the same contract he is already on, Star Player with 375k pw in wages. I even give him a larger sign-on fee.

His decision: signs with PSG as an Impact Sub on a 210k pw in wages.

So what could be the factors of him choosing PSG over Milan:

Location: Paris is the "fancier" city, but it's not like Milano is Milton Keynes.

Culture: Italy pretty much same level as France

Footballing (Club) Culture: Italy by far

League Reputation: in-game Serie A is 3rd, Ligue 1 is 5th

Club Reputation: both clubs have 4.5 stars, Milan is above PSG on the list

Teammates: as of this season Milan has ambitious new owners who brought in Haaland and Pulisic on their own accord. Other notable teammates: Donnarumma, Lucas Hernandez, Tagliafico, Camavinga, Greenwood, Tonali, Kessie and most recently De Bruyne. So it's not like I'm lacking top level quality.

Overall it seems very odd that he would choose to be Neymar's backup in PSG when he's the key player of a team challenging for the CL.

Edited December 4, 2020 by goranm

[Harper]

12 hours ago, goranm said:

Here is an example from my save for which I think the various factors mentioned by Neil don't work as intended.

Context:

In April of season 2 I signed CR7 on a free as a Star Player on a 1-year deal. His reason for joining me was my position in the league. I was winner of Serie A in season 1, but at the time of CR7 signing a deal I was 2nd, with Juventus being 1st. This is more-or-less reasonable because Juventus didn't offer him a contract, they've actually transfer-listed him for refusing to sign a contract, and no-one else offered one.

End of season 2 I'm the Serie A champion and made it to the final of the Champions League, which I lost.

Present:

I'm in January of season 3 with Milan, so CR7's first season with me. I'm first in the league, qualified for 1st round of the Champions League with ease, CR7 scored 20 in 17. PSG offers him a contract - I counter it. His requests: essentially the same contract he is already on, Star Player with 375k pw in wages. I even give him a larger sign-on fee.

His decision: signs with PSG as an Impact Sub on a 210k pw in wages.

So what could be the factors of him choosing PSG over Milan:

Location: Paris is the "fancier" city, but it's not like Milano is Milton Keynes.

Culture: Italy pretty much same level as France

Footballing (Club) Culture: Italy by far

League Reputation: in-game Serie A is 3rd, Ligue 1 is 5th

Club Reputation: both clubs have 4.5 stars, Milan is above PSG on the list

Teammates: as of this season Milan has ambitious new owners who brought in Haaland and Pulisic on their own accord. Other notable teammates: Donnarumma, Lucas Hernandez, Tagliafico, Camavinga, Greenwood, Tonali, Kessie and most recently De Bruyne. So it's not like I'm lacking top level quality.

Overall it seems very odd that he would choose to be Neymar's backup in PSG when he's the key player of a team challenging for the CL.

Is it possible CR7 wants a new challenge, ie win a title in a different nation he hasn't competed in?

[goranm]

1 hour ago, Harper said:

Is it possible CR7 wants a new challenge, ie win a title in a different nation he hasn't competed in?

He hadn't expressed that. If that is something that's in the game, and if he wanted that, why would he enter negotiations and request to be a star player in the first place.

[saihtam]

On 02/12/2020 at 02:59, Davey Boy said:

what am i missing here?

i got promoted in my first season from the Vanarama League up to League 2 and in pre-season there is a good free agent who i wanted to sign he wanted so much in wages over 5k in fact, talks break down, he then goes and signs for a team in the Vanarama League for just over 1k when i was offering him more plus future incentives, also the club he went to are not on his favourite list or any personnel.

 

Do you have the save available? Before transfer went trough?

Would be interesting to test it by taking over that club who made lower offer. If us the player is in that club would he accept also in such way

[Davey Boy]

On 05/12/2020 at 11:16, saihtam said:

Do you have the save available? Before transfer went trough?

Would be interesting to test it by taking over that club who made lower offer. If us the player is in that club would he accept also in such way

i am still on the same save, but have moved well beyond that stage now. Do you still want the file?

[enigmatic]

On 03/12/2020 at 07:08, kiwityke said:

In this guy's example though the difference in wages in one year is 202k pounds...

Over a 4 year deal thats over 800k pounds thats life changing money that you'd be bonkers not to move for.

If we were talking the difference between 1.2k a week and 1.5k a week this argument would hold water but for over 200k a year...I dunno if you are married but most wives would be furious you ain't taking that pay rise.

(Although as an aside Luke Chadwick on the under the cosh podcast actually said he spent most of his career playing close enough to Cambridge to commute because he just didn't wanna leave his hometown, its why he spent years at MK Dons)

He asked for £202k extra pa, apparently. Not sure he actually got it, or close to it and I very much doubt it was for four years.

Of course, IRL he might not flat out refuse to negotiate after not getting his demands even whilst contemplating even worse offers from elsewhere, but then FM is a game and the breakdown in negotiations is there to stop players always winning them...

Also I think wage expectations in FM are linked to club wage bills and average salaries for the level which mostly makes players demands more sensible but sometimes has the opposite effect when a poorer club shows interest.

But below the football league players acting like Luke Chadwick IRL are the rule rather than the exception. Moving house for a 1 year contract really is a hassle and a gamble, a part time contract on a lower salary really might be better for them overall and plenty of footballers will have wives with better careers.

 

[kiwityke]

20 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

He asked for £202k extra pa, apparently. Not sure he actually got it, or close to it and I very much doubt it was for four years.

Of course, IRL he might not flat out refuse to negotiate after not getting his demands even whilst contemplating even worse offers from elsewhere, but then FM is a game and the breakdown in negotiations is there to stop players always winning them...

Also I think wage expectations in FM are linked to club wage bills and average salaries for the level which mostly makes players demands more sensible but sometimes has the opposite effect when a poorer club shows interest.

But below the football league players acting like Luke Chadwick IRL are the rule rather than the exception. Moving house for a 1 year contract really is a hassle and a gamble, a part time contract on a lower salary really might be better for them overall and plenty of footballers will have wives with better careers.

 

I agree but for that kind of money the player would move was my point, also it does kind of explain why he'd ask for so much to move (that assuming he had some connecrion to the area he agreed to sign for less in).

[Geordieboy52]

I saw it a few times in FMT20 where a player would come back to me and say 'your club is my first preference but I need a more competitive wage' and I also saw 'you aren't my first choice but I will come for a bigger wage'.  Perhaps this is just an FMT feature.