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[Snootch]

I am struggling massively in FM21 having started the first 5 matches of the season completely winless with Aston Villa. They are a worse squad than I am used to managing and as such I cannot for the life of me figure out what I would like to achieve with them, and it shows on the pitch with repeatedly disjointed, lifeless performances. 

 

What I know: 

• The team is 19th for Decisions and Work Rate, and 17th for tackling
  • This would lead me to believe they are ill-suited to a pressing game
• The team has average flair and vision 
• The midfield has reasonable passing, vision, and long shot ability 
• There are no "natural" strikers in the squad 
• There is an abundance of decent wide players
• Jack Grealish and Ross Barkley are by a distance the best players available 

 

On the one hand, what I know about my team would lead me to believe I ought to avoid a pressing, high intensity tactic because they have neither the work rate, tackling, nor aggression to achieve it. On the other hand, with their low owrk rate and decision making, I don't know if they have the discipline or concentration for sitting back and defending for long stretches of time. 

My original approach was to create a 4-4-1-1 that emphasized regrouping, soaking up pressure, and running with the ball long distances in an attempt to cause damage on the counter. This has led me to my winless start with only two goals scored from open play. 

My (new) theory: 

- Approach with a Brendan Rodgers at Swansea-esque approach that emphasizes controlling possession as a means of defending. 
- Find a way to create openings for my wide players as that is where most of my team's attacking quality lies. 

Starting template: 

 

The idea here being that we seek to control possession similar to the default 4-2-3-1 setup, with overlaps occurring on either flank to create overloads for the wide players and our AP staying in the hole finding those openings. If we lose the ball we attempt to counter-press, and failing that we retreat into our compact block to ensure we have numbers behind the ball. 

Would anyone be able to critique this setup / suggest improvements?  Does my re-think make any sense? Or should I continue to focus on listening to my assman and making a direct counter attack work? If so, how?

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Snootch

[Experienced Defender]

Short passing + play out of defence + work ball into box are very possession-oriented instructions, especially under a mentality like Balanced. Is that a style of play you want to implement? And if it is, are you sure that Villa is the right kind of team?

Then at the same time, you are using the lower Line of engagement out of possession, which runs counter to your possession-heavy in-possession TIs. Therefore, we have already discovered one obvious contradiction in your tactic that can explain at least one of potential reasons as to why you are struggling at the moment.

Roles and duties look so-so. They also need some tweaking IMHO, but let's first find out what's your idea in terms of the playing style. 

[Snootch]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Short passing + play out of defence + work ball into box are very possession-oriented instructions, especially under a mentality like Balanced. Is that a style of play you want to implement? And if it is, are you sure that Villa is the right kind of team?

Then at the same time, you are using the lower Line of engagement out of possession, which runs counter to your possession-heavy in-possession TIs. Therefore, we have already discovered one obvious contradiction in your tactic that can explain at least one of potential reasons as to why you are struggling at the moment.

Roles and duties look so-so. They also need some tweaking IMHO, but let's first find out what's your idea in terms of the playing style. 

Hey there mate. Been reading your posts for what feels like years now so feels a bit surreal to be getting your help directly, but it’s much appreciated! 
 

I have chopped and changed loads since this game and we’re unfortunately winless in 12 as the disjointedness in managerial approach is absolutely translating to the pitch. I think, unfortunately, I have no idea how I ought to get this lot to play. As I attempted to put into words above, I’ve never managed a team that is so mediocre relative to the competition (18th best on average) and so it feels like my usual identification of strengths is accomplishing nothing. 
 

We aren’t particularly quick, hardworking, disciplined, or technical. What does that leave?

I don’t think the squad is strong enough to rely on defending. At a guess, I might say that the team has strength on the flanks between Grealish, Trezeguet, Traore, and El Ghazi with reasonable ability from the fullbacks. 

That is to say, I feel at a loss for how to play to this squads strengths. I don’t want to invite pressure too passively because we don’t have the concentration levels to keep anyone out (and we conceded boat loads from shots outside the box when I tried). 
 

Perhaps something direct, focused on the flanks+overlaps (wide overloads) with low crossing for our quick strikers, and maybe a Barkley/Grealish AM in the hole to mop up? Not sure if that sounds like anything particularly worth writing home about. 

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, Snootch said:

We aren’t particularly quick, hardworking, disciplined, or technical. What does that leave?

Well, that's all the more reason to avoid technically and mentally demanding instructions such as play out of defence and - especially - work ball into box. Keeping it simple is the best recipe. 

 

5 minutes ago, Snootch said:

Perhaps something direct, focused on the flanks+overlaps (wide overloads) with low crossing for our quick strikers, and maybe a Barkley/Grealish AM in the hole to mop up? Not sure if that sounds like anything particularly worth writing home about

Post a screenshot of that tactic as you envision it, because I need to see the whole picture (rather than just a couple of elements). 

[Snootch]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, that's all the more reason to avoid technically and mentally demanding instructions such as play out of defence and - especially - work ball into box. Keeping it simple is the best recipe. 

 

Post a screenshot of that tactic as you envision it, because I need to see the whole picture (rather than just a couple of elements). 

 

This is the baseline I'm working with now. This is mostly borne out of playing to my individual players' strengths as much as possible and play them in their preferred roles (or as close to while keeping a shape). I'd like to encourage my centerbacks to get on the ball as they're quite technically able, and I want the fullbacks to be able to support the exploitation of the flanks with overlaps. The high defensive line + low line of engagement is my attempt to ensure the team stays compact as I'd like to make up for our lack of ability by keeping the team compact and making sure 11 men get behind the ball. 

It feels weird to have so few instructions beyond that, and perhaps there is too much movement out of the two CM roles (?) but I'm open to keeping it simple and taking on suggestions. 
 

EDIT: screenshot failed to include overlap right. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Snootch

[Tsuru]

I had the same problem playing in Portugal and my team didn´t look like to have any positive points to focus on my tactics. So I decided to hear my assistant and he advised me to play on a 4-4-2 Wing Play. We were playing well but were scoring goals from counter attacks instead of crossing and "aerial game", and then I figured it out why: our best players are the strikers, which are quick and driblle well, so counter works better than wing play. I changed to counter and the team is playing very well now. If I had looked at the two best players and used their main force since the beggnining, the team could have done even better. Now I changed to a 4-4-1-1 because the squad changed and the two best players now are a striker and a Shadow Striker.

A friend of mine was facing some difficulties in Brazil and I looked at his squad, his three best players were on the midfield, which gives him a 4-1-2-3 (4-1-4-1 DM wide). He is not a top team on the division, so I suggested him to play on the counter using a template suggested by Experienced Defender. His team was on the lower bottom and now is at the top of the table.

I really think that looking at your two/three best players and trying to figure it out what they do best is a good starting point. Than you can look at your team´s expectations - fight against relegation? Mid table? - and set a coherent strategy. If you are not the better one, maybe playing on a basic, simple system is better than trying to be so aggresive and counter pressing on a 4-2-3-1 (which is very, very demanding).

It´s just another way of seeing things, maybe it can help you as it did with me.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Tsuru

[Snootch]

4 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I had the same problem playing in Portugal and my team didn´t look like to have any positive points to focus on my tactics. So I decided to hear my assistant and he advised me to play on a 4-4-2 Wing Play. We were playing well but were scoring goals from counter attacks instead of crossing and "aerial game", and then I figured it out why: our best players are the strikers, which are quick and driblle well, so counter works better than wing play. I changed to counter and the team is playing very well now. If I had looked at the two best players and used their main force since the beggnining, the team could have done even better. Now I changed to a 4-4-1-1 because the squad changed and the two best players now are a striker and a Shadow Striker.

A friend of mine was facing some difficulties in Brazil and I looked at his squad, his three best players were on the midfield, which gives him a 4-1-2-3 (4-1-4-1 DM wide). He is not a top team on the division, so I suggested him to play on the counter using a template suggested by Experienced Defender. His team was on the lower bottom and now is at the top of the table.

I really think that looking at your two/three best players and trying to figure it out what they do best is a good starting point. Than you can look at your team´s expectations - fight against relegation? Mid table? - and set a coherent strategy. If you are not the better one, maybe playing on a basic, simple system is better than trying to be so aggresive and counter pressing on a 4-2-3-1 (which is very, very demanding).

It´s just another way of seeing things, maybe it can help you as it did with me.

Thank you for this! That has caused me a little rethink of the above: 

 

 

The thinking here being that it has a more bottom-heavy formation to look to spring counter attacks from, but still keeps the best players in their ideal roles. Does this look like a reasonable counter attacking setup? 

[Tsuru]

29 minutos atrás, Snootch disse:

Thank you for this! That has caused me a little rethink of the above: 

 

 

The thinking here being that it has a more bottom-heavy formation to look to spring counter attacks from, but still keeps the best players in their ideal roles. Does this look like a reasonable counter attacking setup? 

This looks like very much the one I am using right now. I truly believe 4-4-1-1 is one of the best counter systems in FM because you can use the high amount of players which can play on a 4-1-2-3 and 4-2-3-1, the most common formations in the game, but on a more conservative and defensive way. 

Maybe I would swap the sides of the BBM and the BWM, put the Inverted Winger on support and change some TI´s - raise the mentality to Positive, remove all In Possession instructions (I don´t use any), and possibly add Get Stuck In. 

Then I would do some tests, maybe 2 or 3 games, to see how the AM on Support and AF operate in a counter system. From theory your AF could be easily isolated - he advances too much and opposition may create a "barrier" between him and the rest of the team using a DMC and a lower line, for example. You may also lack players to take advantage of the long balls and the speedy transitions, normally on those systems it´s advised to have two players more focused on scoring goals upfront.

However, sometimes the theory is not right - maybe the AM on Support will be well positioned to receive the ball and make a deadly pass during counters, using the space better than a scoring AMC role. I think you better test and see for yourself.

Another possible tweak is a Wide Midfielder on Support instead of the Winger. Personally I don´t see many differences between both roles on attack, but I think the WM operates better from a deeper position, defends more and works alongside the Wingback on a better way than the Winger. But again, test and see, if the Winger does well I think there is no need to change.

And see if using two wingbacks won´t expose your flanks too much. If it does, maybe you can consider changing to a Fullback role, which can also work very well.

Also take into consideration that counter strategies need tweaks during matches - if you score, opponents will press you very hard looking for a goal, and if they score first, you will have to decide what changes you may do (or simply accept and don´t do any). Rashidi has a very good topic here about lower league with some tips for this kind of system, it´s a worth looking at it: 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Tsuru

[Experienced Defender]

You have posted screenshots of 2 tactics in the meantime - a 4231 and a 4411. So which one is currently in use?

[Snootch]

15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You have posted screenshots of 2 tactics in the meantime - a 4231 and a 4411. So which one is currently in use?

Unfortunately whether through my tactical imbalances or just a morale too far gone, we couldn't dig out any wins and I got the sack. However, I've started a new save with Crystal Palace with the idea that I might approach the game similarly but with slightly better players so I can see whether I'm getting my tactics completely wrong, or whether it's just the quality of the squad. Hopefully it's alright to share in here since I'm working on mostly the same concepts: 

 

Average positions: 

 

The core ideas being: 

- Keep it simple

- Out of possession, sit in a deep compact block and invite pressure, encouraging my two hard-working, aggressive DMs to protect the backline, win the ball back, and spring a counter. 

- Encourage the front four to run with the ball often, and give them freedom to roam for quality attacking movement. 

- Have Eze (AP) drop into midfield to link the gaps between DM and AM and also look for our balls into our wide players. 

 

Outstanding questions: 

- What can I do to get the striker more involved? In preseason + opening day in the PL, this position is the one to have consistently struggled. 

- Should I encourage the players to pass into space? Or is that an unnecessary risk coupled with a Positive mentality? 

- When I don't have a fit AM, what should I morph this formation into to encourage the same type of football? The rest of my Eze backups are CMs, at best DLPs, and not very forward inclined. Can I just move the AM into a CM slot and expect similar play? 

 

I will say that I was very pleased against Leicester City that again and again we caught them on the counter, with Zaha running on the ball for fun and causing all sorts of havoc. So that core piece seems to be working fine...for now. 

 

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, Snootch said:

Out of possession, sit in a deep compact block and invite pressure

For a deep and compact block, you don't need much lower LOE. Just lower would be quite enough (especially as the D-line is set to default/standard). Because just as too little compactness is bad, so is too much compactness. You should look to avoid any kind of tactical overkill. 

 

8 hours ago, Snootch said:

I will say that I was very pleased against Leicester City that again and again we caught them on the counter, with Zaha running on the ball for fun and causing all sorts of havoc. So that core piece seems to be working fine...for now.

Okay, if it works, then stick to it (at least until it stops working).