Still too easy?

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Jervaj said:

I think Junkhead has a point though. I have read most of the topic in one go and have noticed something. A lot of people is saying it is too easy, because "Look at the results Im able to get wtih X team", "I barelly made any signings", "Im beating sueprior teams left and right", etc.

Thing is, that doesn't really tell us much. Like yeah, it's an indication that the game may be too easy, but it gives no clue as of why. Why does the player overachieve? Is there something players do that is more effective than it should? Its there something that the AI is doing terribly and idnirectly gives players and advantage? Without searching for the cause I dont see how this is going to yield anything. Showing an unrealistic achievement and shuting "FIX PLEASE" is not going to give any clue to the devs where the issue is.

I get this feeling because after reading 4 pages of topic it hasnt't really enlightened me as to what the issue may be, its just about repeatedly pointing that there may be one. The best hint so far has been the one of AI been too passive instead of attacking more when its behind, which seems to eb already under review and hopefully would yield more results. It would be good to have mroe things like that as I doubt its the only issue given the extreme results.

You must have skimmed through the thread then.

[goranm]

One of the ways in which the game could be made more difficult is to make agents more meaningful in contract negotiations. Currently, when an agent comes in with a request to renegotiate a contract for a well performing player, all you need to do is ask the player to sack them, and the player will be happy to do so. The agent will not like you after that, but since most players have different agents, there's very little chance of this backfiring in the future.

Currently I have a 21y/o at €35k p/w who would be on €300k p/w if he was to sign for any other team now. His agent came in with a request to up his contract, I told the player to sack him, and that was that. The player now hires an Ugandan agent that is representing 9 other players that will never come close to being in my team. So what will happen next time the agent requests a pay-rise, you've guessed it, they'll get the sack. Rinse and repeat for 3 more years until my €35k p/w player is 18 months away from his contract expiring.

If the game emulated super agents like Raiola, this would be much harder to do and it would be much harder to build an overpowered squad within the wage budget.

[Jervaj]

37 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

You must have skimmed through the thread then.

Maybe. Tends to happen when you get late to the party and have to digest many pages at once. But even going back (quickly) I dont see much else. Its mainly that point about AI been too passive that is already brought up as a bug and been looked at. There is some vague discussion as some tactics been too effective (specailly attacking ones), but not why the AI fails against those, and I see people claiming this same lack of difficult with coutnerattack tactics too.

I feel like than half the thread is people just saying is easy and given examples of overachievements. Not bad per se, as I said it points to the problem but it doesn't give much to follow on. Also some meta discussion of why they game may be intentionally that easy, and some minor tidbits about that same passiveness transfer market but that doesn't really explain small teams winning leeagues.

 

You are the most active poster in this thread by far and probably. Could you, please, sum up the main reasons why the AI fails to pose a challenge even with equipped with superior players? Do the manage fitness badly? Do they fail tactically?  Im really curios and Im sure others are too.

 

Thanks!

[Pasonen]

13 hours ago, Jervaj said:

Maybe. Tends to happen when you get late to the party and have to digest many pages at once. But even going back (quickly) I dont see much else. Its mainly that point about AI been too passive that is already brought up as a bug and been looked at. There is some vague discussion as some tactics been too effective (specailly attacking ones), but not why the AI fails against those, and I see people claiming this same lack of difficult with coutnerattack tactics too.

I feel like than half the thread is people just saying is easy and given examples of overachievements. Not bad per se, as I said it points to the problem but it doesn't give much to follow on. Also some meta discussion of why they game may be intentionally that easy, and some minor tidbits about that same passiveness transfer market but that doesn't really explain small teams winning leeagues.

 

You are the most active poster in this thread by far and probably. Could you, please, sum up the main reasons why the AI fails to pose a challenge even with equipped with superior players? Do the manage fitness badly? Do they fail tactically?  Im really curios and Im sure others are too.

 

Thanks!

I think it's the initial tactical decision what AI use in match and the logic how win games in same time being cautious. If opponent is from same league starting lower mentality than cautious is just not needed. Using defensive mentality tactic should be more like defending a lead at the end and I don't use Def mentality even then. Logic using mentalities should be caut/standard -- Score a goal -- take one notch down from mentality or tempo or lower attacking roles to support -- If a equaliser comes reset to starting. Etc. Other is I see my AI offer defending mentality tactic + shorter passes as a starting tactic which is worrying. One thing SI should take a look is the amount of Def roles in tactic AI uses. I get notified in every game using 5-6 defending roles.. I can tell you that's not needed  3 defending is my max which is very much been enough.

So some suggestions for AI to make it more competent:

- starting mentality minimum cautious or standard even when underdog in same league.

- respecting support roles defending contribution more. Not so Def role heavy tactics.

-no defending mentality + shorter passes until holding the lead.

-how much AI uses lower defline? Especially in against own league opponents as a starting tactic. I don't use it never and doing fine.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Pasonen

[Jervaj]

47 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

I think it's the initial tactical decision what AI use in match and the logic how win games in same time being cautious. If opponent is from same league starting lower mentality than cautious is just not needed. Using defensive mentality tactic should be more like defending a lead at the end and I don't use Def mentality even then. Logic using mentalities should be caut/standard -- Score a goal -- take one notch down from mentality or tempo or lower attacking roles to support -- If a equaliser comes reset to starting. Etc. Other is I see my AI offer defending mentality tactic + shorter passes as a starting tactic which is worrying. One thing SI should take a look is the amount of Def roles in tactic AI uses. I get notified in every game using 5-6 defending roles.. I can tell you that's not needed  3 defending is my max which is very much been enough.

So some suggestions for AI to make it more competent:

- starting mentality minimum cautious or standard even when underdog in same league.

- respecting support roles defending contribution more. Not so Def role heavy tactics.

-no defending mentality + shorter passes until holding the lead.

-how much AI uses lower defline? Especially in against own league opponents as a starting tactic. I don't use it never and doing fine.

Thanks a lot!

Yeah that seems problematic indeed. Defensive should never be the default mentality except in  maybe very specific cases. Cautious is the one to go if you want to be, well cautious. Ideally there should be a spread between the center 3 depening on manager personality,  tactics, matchup and such.

 

So mostly it seems its a matter of the AI been too passive/defensive tactically even when the situation doesn't merit so. Seems its the main problem they are looking at already. Hope we can see some progress there.

 

Thanks again for the post. Very informative.

[Wavelberry]

From my limited experience with this year's game morale plays a huge part again as well. If you've got a team with good morale and an attacking tactic you'll see all sorts of good things happening to your team but if morale is bad then you will lose and it kind of won't matter what you do tactically. It's why I reckon some people are running away with leagues so easily. They get in a good morale rhythm early and boom... 

[duff33]

On 20/12/2020 at 21:52, Ronnieekelund said:

Me too all good players are out on loan, left with rubbish till 2nd season when they come back to the club

It's not even that; I'm consistently creating a lot of good chances, but scoring goals in FM21 has felt near impossible at times, or like I'm 'only allowed to score 1' - then there's the annual collapse in form around late February or March. 

Three complete seasons, and it's been the same story almost every single year - the fourth seasons isn't shaping up any better, I've out played everyone, but goals are largely absent again.

I've tried to vary tactics, I try to use players in positions they have a high rating in etc. Heck, my squad is pretty impressive I think, but results don't follow, then we miss out on the Champions League by maybe a point, because of this high percentage of ****** draws.

This isn't my first edition, but it is the first time I've genuinely considered going back to an older edition, just because the fun is being sucked out of it at this point. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

On 21/12/2020 at 11:05, Jervaj said:

Maybe. Tends to happen when you get late to the party and have to digest many pages at once. But even going back (quickly) I dont see much else. Its mainly that point about AI been too passive that is already brought up as a bug and been looked at. There is some vague discussion as some tactics been too effective (specailly attacking ones), but not why the AI fails against those, and I see people claiming this same lack of difficult with coutnerattack tactics too.

I feel like than half the thread is people just saying is easy and given examples of overachievements. Not bad per se, as I said it points to the problem but it doesn't give much to follow on. Also some meta discussion of why they game may be intentionally that easy, and some minor tidbits about that same passiveness transfer market but that doesn't really explain small teams winning leeagues.

 

You are the most active poster in this thread by far and probably. Could you, please, sum up the main reasons why the AI fails to pose a challenge even with equipped with superior players? Do the manage fitness badly? Do they fail tactically?  Im really curios and Im sure others are too.

 

Thanks!

It’s been 3-4 threads about this similar subject so to not beat a dead horse, the problems I am seeing are:

 

1. High Intensity attacking tactics are OP and doesn’t tire out or injure players as much as it should (Note: I haven’t played that much with the newest patch so this could have changed)

2. AI teams are very passive. Could be that AI sometimes start games with very defensive and defensive mentalities. This interacts with the first problem as users are most likely going to play with attacking mentalities and if the AI just sit back and defend with defensive, they aren’t going to create any chances with a counter attack exploiting the attacking or very attacking mentality as much as they would if they would have used cautious instead.
 

The AI also doesn’t seem to change their mentality during a game unless they are down a few goals and it’s near the 80th min. Only then they would go more attacking.
 

3. AI tend to play players out of position, meaning that they will slot a player in a position it doesn’t have any experience at. (fixed?)

 

4. The Morale issue was fixed (AI would use wrong shouts tanking morale during game)

 

5. General user advantage over AI in the transfer market and scouting.

1 & 2 are the main issues for me as the others are either fixed or can be worked around.

[Mars_Blackmon]

9 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

From my limited experience with this year's game morale plays a huge part again as well. If you've got a team with good morale and an attacking tactic you'll see all sorts of good things happening to your team but if morale is bad then you will lose and it kind of won't matter what you do tactically. It's why I reckon some people are running away with leagues so easily. They get in a good morale rhythm early and boom... 

Yes, morale is too much of a factor. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

13 hours ago, Jervaj said:

Thanks a lot!

Yeah that seems problematic indeed. Defensive should never be the default mentality except in  maybe very specific cases. Cautious is the one to go if you want to be, well cautious. Ideally there should be a spread between the center 3 depening on manager personality,  tactics, matchup and such.

 

So mostly it seems its a matter of the AI been too passive/defensive tactically even when the situation doesn't merit so. Seems its the main problem they are looking at already. Hope we can see some progress there.

 

Thanks again for the post. Very informative.

Doesn’t seem like it’s high priority. None of the pkm’s on this matter are being downloaded.

[bendixkunert2]

Don't think it's too easy for the average FM player not playing in the Prem where you can buy your way to glory through TV revenue or using knaps tactics. If they make it hard enough for those types of FM junkies to fail, 90% of the players would rage quit.

[Sharkn20]

On 22/12/2020 at 12:59, duff33 said:

It's not even that; I'm consistently creating a lot of good chances, but scoring goals in FM21 has felt near impossible at times, or like I'm 'only allowed to score 1' - then there's the annual collapse in form around late February or March. 

Three complete seasons, and it's been the same story almost every single year - the fourth seasons isn't shaping up any better, I've out played everyone, but goals are largely absent again.

I've tried to vary tactics, I try to use players in positions they have a high rating in etc. Heck, my squad is pretty impressive I think, but results don't follow, then we miss out on the Champions League by maybe a point, because of this high percentage of ****** draws.

This isn't my first edition, but it is the first time I've genuinely considered going back to an older edition, just because the fun is being sucked out of it at this point. 

That's the typical complain of a GM that is not able to adjust their tactical setup when is the superior team.

AI has into account a number of factors when it setup against you.

Most important is recent form and fear factor, if both are high, they are just gonna camp 10 men around the box and get you in set pieces or at the counter. So you need a tactic to break that down, create overloads and make use of tactical changes in set pieces, including training during the week, get players with good long shot attributes and reduce mentality and LOE to make them to get out.

Is very easy to be the underdog, defend and break them with space, the problem comes when u are not the underdog anymore and you become the alpha, you need to change your tactic, plain and simple.

I don't have slumps, I have deserved wins and deserved loses, and the odd win / loss everynow and then.

 

The AI still needs to improve in a lot of things though, but then people will get frustrated and will not buy the game anymore.

That's why we need at least 4 levels of challenge as other games have.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Sharkn20

[duff33]

34 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

That's the typical complain of a GM that is not able to adjust their tactical setup when is the superior team.

AI has into account a number of factors when it setup against you.

Most important is recent form and fear factor, if both are high, they are just gonna camp 10 men around the box and get you in set pieces or at the counter. So you need a tactic to break that down, create overloads and make use of tactical changes in set pieces, including training during the week, get players with good long shot attributes and reduce mentality and LOE to make them to get out.

Is very easy to be the underdog, defend and break them with space, the problem comes when u are not the underdog anymore and you become the alpha, you need to change your tactic, plain and simple.

I don't have slumps, I have deserved wins and deserved loses, and the odd win / loss everynow and then.

 

The AI still needs to improve in a lot of things though, but then people will get frustrated and will not buy the game anymore.

That's why we need at least 4 levels of challenge as other games have.

It's not just teams lower in the table than me it happens against, it's not just one tactic either - this isn't my first rodeo, I know you need to setup different tactics to (try) and use in different situations. But finding one that doesn't just result in another email from the Performance Analyst telling me we're 'aggressive but wasteful' has proven elusive to date, and after a while, playing starts to become a negative experience. 

[Sharkn20]

1 hour ago, duff33 said:

It's not just teams lower in the table than me it happens against, it's not just one tactic either - this isn't my first rodeo, I know you need to setup different tactics to (try) and use in different situations. But finding one that doesn't just result in another email from the Performance Analyst telling me we're 'aggressive but wasteful' has proven elusive to date, and after a while, playing starts to become a negative experience. 

You have a Forum to post your tactics and have some feedback for them, however you need to be open to criticism to improve. Otherwise is not even worth to continue this conversation.

[Polski97]

Game is simply too easy for anyone on these forums. I have to self impose transfer embargo's or self off players I get promoted with to make it semi realistic. I sometimes even use only a certain amount of wage budget and transfer funds. 

 

-I've limited the quality and amount of loan players I bring in to my lower level teams

-I started to steer away from pre set tactics in the game and just make my own. 

 

 

*This is all coming from a manager that was never sacked and never fought relegation battles. Which I'd love to experience. 

[freddieos]

7 hours ago, Polski97 said:

Game is simply too easy for anyone on these forums. I have to self impose transfer embargo's or self off players I get promoted with to make it semi realistic. I sometimes even use only a certain amount of wage budget and transfer funds. 

 

-I've limited the quality and amount of loan players I bring in to my lower level teams

-I started to steer away from pre set tactics in the game and just make my own. 

 

 

*This is all coming from a manager that was never sacked and never fought relegation battles. Which I'd love to experience. 

Sounds like you need the Smarter AI Managers and Realistic Transfer Preferences mods from @majesticeternity

[duff33]

20 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

You have a Forum to post your tactics and have some feedback for them, however you need to be open to criticism to improve. Otherwise is not even worth to continue this conversation.

I've posted them there; it would be nice if there was something 'in game' that have me a bit more help in identifying the problems though; especially the annual collapse in form from late February onwards.

[Polski97]

11 hours ago, freddieos said:

Sounds like you need the Smarter AI Managers and Realistic Transfer Preferences mods from @majesticeternity

where can I get this ? Is it on steam workshop? 

 

Do you mind providing a link ? I'm in dire need of a challenge as I want to enjoy the game but winning isn't that enjoyable. 

[Mr U Rosler]

Post patch I would say the game has become slightly more difficult.

I've now been on the end of some horrific comebacks, lost some 3 goal leads on the back of Half Time AI team talks which results in them becoming an unstoppable force in the 2nd half which no amount of tactical tweaking can seem to stop.

 

However,

The game could easily be made a nightmare, so careful what we wish for i guess, 4 simple steps below could result in a much more difficult game.

• Make the finances much more restrictive (realistic), lower wage budget, transfer budget etc. Lower amount of player sales going into transfer budgets etc. Owners/Shareholders taking loads of cash out of clubs.
• Much more aggressive transfer market, lots of competition for quality players, Elite players only considering a handful of clubs, if you're not one of them, forget it. Make improving your squad a difficult and challenging process, its too easy now, we know who's good and can just go and buy them.
• Replace the attribute numbers with ranges so we don't know EXACTLY how determined someone is or how good a passer they are, 1-6 = Red, 7 - 11 = Yellow, 12 - 16 = Blue, 17 - 20 Green. Or something like that. 
• Get nasty with AI tactics. Imagine a game when AI managers are using Knaps tactics? Perhaps not that extreme but there is huge scope to up the ante on AI tactics, they should all be tested and need to hit a performance baseline before they are allowed in the game for use of AI manager.      

 All of this is easily achievable, but might turn off the casuals.

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Mr U Rosler

[Sharkn20]

53 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Post patch I would say the game has become slightly more difficult.

I've now been on the end of some horrific comebacks, lost some 3 goal leads on the back of Half Time AI team talks which results in them becoming an unstoppable force in the 2nd half which no amount of tactical tweaking can seem to stop.

 

However,

The game could easily be made a nightmare, so careful what we wish for i guess, 4 simple steps below could result in a much more difficult game.

• Make the finances much more restrictive (realistic), lower wage budget, transfer budget etc. Lower amount of player sales going into transfer budgets etc. Owners/Shareholders taking loads of cash out of clubs.
• Much more aggressive transfer market, lots of competition for quality players, Elite players only considering a handful of clubs, if you're not one of them, forget it. Make improving your squad a difficult and challenging process, its too easy now, we know who's good and can just go and buy them.
• Replace the attribute numbers with ranges so we don't know EXACTLY how determined someone is or how good a passer they are, 1-6 = Red, 7 - 11 = Yellow, 12 - 16 = Blue, 17 - 20 Green. Or something like that. 
• Get nasty with AI tactics. Imagine a game when AI managers are using Knaps tactics? Perhaps not that extreme but there is huge scope to up the ante on AI tactics, they should all be tested and need to hit a performance baseline before they are allowed in the game for use of AI manager.      

 All of this is easily achievable, but might turn off the casuals.

 

I agree on all but number 3, that is a very bad idea, besides you already have the hidden attribute of consistency for the ranging points. Unless you got 20 in consistency, you won't live up to your ratings every match.

point 1, 2 and 4 spot on.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Sharkn20

[Mars_Blackmon]

 

2 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Post patch I would say the game has become slightly more difficult.

I've now been on the end of some horrific comebacks, lost some 3 goal leads on the back of Half Time AI team talks which results in them becoming an unstoppable force in the 2nd half which no amount of tactical tweaking can seem to stop.

 

However,

The game could easily be made a nightmare, so careful what we wish for i guess, 4 simple steps below could result in a much more difficult game.

• Make the finances much more restrictive (realistic), lower wage budget, transfer budget etc. Lower amount of player sales going into transfer budgets etc. Owners/Shareholders taking loads of cash out of clubs.
• Much more aggressive transfer market, lots of competition for quality players, Elite players only considering a handful of clubs, if you're not one of them, forget it. Make improving your squad a difficult and challenging process, its too easy now, we know who's good and can just go and buy them.
• Replace the attribute numbers with ranges so we don't know EXACTLY how determined someone is or how good a passer they are, 1-6 = Red, 7 - 11 = Yellow, 12 - 16 = Blue, 17 - 20 Green. Or something like that. 
• Get nasty with AI tactics. Imagine a game when AI managers are using Knaps tactics? Perhaps not that extreme but there is huge scope to up the ante on AI tactics, they should all be tested and need to hit a performance baseline before they are allowed in the game for use of AI manager.      

 All of this is easily achievable, but might turn off the casuals.

 

things like team cohesion needs to matter more (maybe toned down morale effects and bump up team cohesion effects) especially for lower division teams where the players aren’t that talented and team work matter way more.

 

Shouldn't be able to shake up some obscure team with obscure players and win the league so easily in the first year.

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Sharkn20 said:

I agree on all but number 3, that is a very bad idea, besides you already have the hidden attribute of consistency for the ranging points. Unless you got 20 in consistency, you won't live up to your ratings every match.

point 1, 2 and 4 spot on.

They need to just bring attribute bars back as a option...

[RinusFM]

Season 5. Ripping Copenhagen and Rangers. Again reaching Grouprounds. 5 seasons ago I was in the First Division of Ireland. There's definitely something not right. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by RinusFM

[priority76]

35 minutes ago, RinusFM said:

There's definitely something not right. 

I don't think so.  Maybe if you were winning the Champion's league.  Five years to me is a long time in FM, I usually get bored of a save after this length of time.  I would hope to at least be making this sort of progress by this time.

[Freakiie]

52 minutes ago, RinusFM said:

Season 5. Ripping Copenhagen and Rangers. Again reaching Grouprounds. 5 seasons ago I was in the First Division of Ireland. There's definitely something not right. 

 

What leagues do you have loaded though? European qualifiers tend to be relatively easy (at least in the Champions route) since most people don't load all the smaller leagues and playing against a team from an inactive league is far easier. Without any active leagues I can easily take an Icelandic club to the CL knockout stages in a matter of years while doing a youth only save, simply because the opposition isn't there.

 

[RinusFM]

 

1 hour ago, priority76 said:

I don't think so.  Maybe if you were winning the Champion's league.  Five years to me is a long time in FM, I usually get bored of a save after this length of time.  I would hope to at least be making this sort of progress by this time.

Hmm. Perhaps you're right. I would imagine I would take me a little longer. Perhaps a year or 8 before reaching grouprounds. 

37 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

What leagues do you have loaded though? European qualifiers tend to be relatively easy (at least in the Champions route) since most people don't load all the smaller leagues and playing against a team from an inactive league is far easier. Without any active leagues I can easily take an Icelandic club to the CL knockout stages in a matter of years while doing a youth only save, simply because the opposition isn't there.

 

I've loaded 21 leagues + all continents except 2 boxes checked otherwise I would be in millions of player, haha. If you have suggestions I would appreciate it. 

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by RinusFM

[Freakiie]

I'm surprised you even managed to get through 5 seasons with that many leagues loaded!

But yeah, definitely surprisingly fast progress you're making considering all the leagues are loaded.

[Mars_Blackmon]

3 hours ago, priority76 said:

I don't think so.  Maybe if you were winning the Champion's league.  Five years to me is a long time in FM, I usually get bored of a save after this length of time.  I would hope to at least be making this sort of progress by this time.

Maybe you get bored because you’re winning everything in that time frame?

[freddieos]

8 hours ago, Polski97 said:

where can I get this ? Is it on steam workshop? 

 

Do you mind providing a link ? I'm in dire need of a challenge as I want to enjoy the game but winning isn't that enjoyable. 

you'll find them in here 

https://community.sigames.com/forum/834-editors-hideaway-download-forum-fm21/

[priority76]

2 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Maybe you get bored because you’re winning everything in that time frame?

Ha, I wish!  No the opposite, I start these saves with the intention of going from the lowest league to highest.  Then get frustrated at being stuck in the vanarama whatever.  And I use downloaded tactics and whatever else I can to help.  I've played FM for years and years and still can't work out this game.  Love it to bits though, even though it frustrates the hell out of me.  If you know the secret of winning please let me know.  Also I love that you're a reference to She's gotta have it.

Edited December 24, 2020 by priority76

[FlorianAlbert9]

I Just finished my first season with a top club, Wydad Casablanca (the most winning club in Morocco) in 2025-26. (Custom league)

I made the record for the club for: most points (79 out of 90, 30games), most win (25), most goals (83). 

But i finished 2nd. 

Raja Casablanca was terrific, they made 80 points and more than 100 goals (in 30 games). 

A very funny season.

 

[grade]

9 hours ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

I Just finished my first season with a top club, Wydad Casablanca (the most winning club in Morocco) in 2025-26. (Custom league)

I made the record for the club for: most points (79 out of 90, 30games), most win (25), most goals (83). 

But i finished 2nd. 

Raja Casablanca was terrific, they made 80 points and more than 100 goals (in 30 games). 

A very funny season.

 

That is all a game should be. Fun or anything related to this word.

[bahmet]

3 saves - a total of 7 seasons - 5 teams - 7 championships and 5 consecutive victories in the Champions League. In addition to cups. Leipzig, Man U, Milan, Bayer, Chelsea.

Conclusion: top clubs led by AI create little resistance only in the first season. Then they play badly.

For example, Liverpool, Man City, Juventus, Bayern score a maximum of 75 points in the championship.

Salzburg reaches the Champions League final in the second season, passing Barcelona, Chelsea and Real Madrid.

Playing is too easy. In matches ai almost do not create moments and blows.

Edited December 25, 2020 by bahmet

[Polski97]

Just a few pictures of my Palermo save. 
 

Promoted from 3rd tier season one. 
 

DID NOT MAKE any new signings for 2nd Tier and currently in the drivers seat ... I’ve intentionally not done signings and played with the same team that got promotion. 
 

have a look at the teams I beat ... all their players are worth double or even triple the amount my first team costs. 
 

I'm typing this out as there’s a game being played in the background which I’ve just won ... didn’t even have to look at it. 
 

I just want realism ... I want to fight for survival not get two back to back promotions ... that doesn’t happen. It’s like Norwich winning the championship then playing champions league next year ... with the same team !!  

[Polski97]

Just now, Polski97 said:

Just a few pictures of my Palermo save. 
 

Promoted from 3rd tier season one. 
 

DID NOT MAKE any new signings for 2nd Tier and currently in the drivers seat ... I’ve intentionally not done signings and played with the same team that got promotion. 
 

have a look at the teams I beat ... all their players are worth double or even triple the amount my first team costs. 
 

I'm typing this out as there’s a game being played in the background which I’ve just won ... didn’t even have to look at it. 
 

I just want realism ... I want to fight for survival not get two back to back promotions ... that doesn’t happen. It’s like Norwich winning the championship then playing champions league next year ... with the same team !!  

Recent form and the quality of players Spezia have. Whole first team is in the millions ... 

[Polski97]

4 minutes ago, Polski97 said:

Recent form and the quality of players Spezia have. Whole first team is in the millions ... 

Lastly, I’ve got all of this to burn ... which was available at the start of the season. If I used it I’d be absolutely steam rolling it in the league which I’d find incredibly boring and would be a save of ‘click next’ simulator. 
 

 

[Costanino Hummels]

My experience after two seasons with the same team (Valencia CF) in different games:

- I have been in 3rd position in both games, forecast to be 7th.

- My best forward (Maxi Gomez) was the top scorer in both games.

- Block the first transfer period. My budget for the winter market was 0 euros. Valencia this year has sold all its best players. Only by signing just one mediocre player for the bench did I get third place in both games.

- I have observed that with the 4231 gegenpress tactics it is very easy to win. Another thing I wanted to emphasize, how EASY this game is for someone who has seen two tutorials and played editions.

[Viking]

Tell me more about this game being too easy.

[4football]

Polski97
 

which tactic are you using?

3 hours ago, Costanino Hummels said:

- I have observed that with the 4231 gegenpress tactics it is very easy to win

same as this one?

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 hours ago, Viking said:

Tell me more about this game being too easy.

I'd be more impress if this was with a high pressing & attacking tactic. 

The effectiveness of that against some passive AI formations is the biggest issue out of everything else.

[Viking]

13 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

I'd be more impress if this was with a high pressing & attacking tactic. 

The effectiveness of that against some passive AI formations is the biggest issue out of everything else.

I do use a high pressing and attacking tactic.

[HCFC87]

After a brief dip in form using tika-taka after the patch (not creating enough chances due to the full backs smashing every cross into the first defender) I moved to a more gegenpress style, but without wingers in an attempt to make it more challenging. So I'm using a 4-3-2-1.

And we've immediately started destroying the opposition. Lost one game as I went down to 10 men early on, the rest I'm undefeated. And this is in the playoff group, so it's against the best teams in my league. I hammered the top team 4-1, and I'm basically now promoted to the top division in my first season. Of what was supposed to be a long term challenge. And this is using a team whose budget is the lowest in the league.

The game is definitely too easy.

 

My conspiracy theory is that SI want to make the game easy so that more people post on Twitter etc about taking amateur clubs to the Champions League trophy and advertise their game. Hopefully it's not that reason and SI can actually improve this, because winning a game that seems to want you to win isn't very fulfilling. I have had more fun languishing around in mid table season after season in a challenging game.

[bazhsw]

I am in two minds about this.  I came back to FM21 after a long break (FM15 was the last I played).

 

First job was at a relegation threatened club in a bottom division midway through the season - lost first eight games and got sacked.  Second job was an underachieving team in same division and got them promoted season after.  At times it felt 'easy' but also had fun playing.

 

As an aside, is 'last day fairytale' a feature or a bug?  It happens in real life of course but needing a win for promotion and losing 1-0 in injury time we scored twice.  It felt 'unreal' but I dived around my room nonetheless.

 

I think the crux for me is that the game is supposed to make you happy and it is supposed to be easier than real life.  How exciting would 15 years of mid-table obscurity be for most?

 

I also think that no matter what a human player will always have massive advantages.  In a game with such a massive database and huge number of clubs / leagues small margins make a massive difference.  If you're consistently finding slightly better opponents for less then you'll do well.  I think this explains success at lower and higher levels.  It's why I smile at 'the game is too easy, I can have 100's of players on trial and search thousands in the player search and harvest newgens'....umm use some self control?  Don't claim the game is easy when you are clearly exploiting the game in ways even the biggest clubs would be unable to.

 

I also dismiss comments like, 'this game is easy, all I need to do is download X tactic'.  I remember back in FM08 people talked about match engine exploits.  What I assume is that the advances in the match engine and AI have been matched by over a decade of consistent testing and refining of 'the perfect tactic(s)'.  Of course not everyone uses these tactics but I do wonder if the collective shared knowledge of the community makes it 'easy'.  If the game was so easy there wouldn't be thousands of posts every year in the 'good players' forums or tactics forums.  Even after a long break I found the 'good practice' I developed from FM08 to FM21 largely holds true.

 

A real test of 'easiness' would be assessing the success of new players (although even then we don't know if they are save scumming, downloading wonderkid databases, using the editor, downloading tested tactics).

 

I also wonder if certain tactics are successful because they are considered 'popular' or the best in tactical evolution and the game reflects it?  A theme in this thread is that most are using a Gegenpress variation on how Liverpool play and it 'works' and is flavour of the month until the next tactical evolution. I imagine 1930's FM would have a load complaining about the effectiveness of the W-M....

 

All that said, I think the match engine could be better and it feels unrealistic at times.  I have rarely seen a beautiful, battling (or boring) 0-0.  There are still some ridiculous scorelines (5-5's up and down the league's) and there are still the 'we had 30 chances, didn't score then got done by their only shot with a long ball over the top' (actually that is realistic for my real life team lol).  But as others have said, if goals were real to life and only the best ever won anything then people would stop playing.  I have noticed the AI change on 80 min when losing, I am sure it was around 70 on FM15.  However I have noticed AI changes during games on all versions.

 

So this may not be for everyone but a couple of questions to ask...

 

- are you playing in the spirit of football management or are your actions creating unrealistic advantages 

- has your accumulated knowledge or the knowledge of others in the community turned you into an advanced user? The game cannot keep pace with you and remain accessible to the wide audience.  The game hasn't changed that much and the 'experts' you are learning from are using knowledge from hundreds of others built up over decades.

- are you still having fun?  What would make it fun?

- what one thing could S.I do to improve.  Use the features and bugs forums to highlight.

 

 

 

 

[Erimus1876]

10 hours ago, HCFC87 said:

After a brief dip in form using tika-taka after the patch (not creating enough chances due to the full backs smashing every cross into the first defender) I moved to a more gegenpress style, but without wingers in an attempt to make it more challenging. So I'm using a 4-3-2-1.

And we've immediately started destroying the opposition. Lost one game as I went down to 10 men early on, the rest I'm undefeated. And this is in the playoff group, so it's against the best teams in my league. I hammered the top team 4-1, and I'm basically now promoted to the top division in my first season. Of what was supposed to be a long term challenge. And this is using a team whose budget is the lowest in the league.

The game is definitely too easy.

 

My conspiracy theory is that SI want to make the game easy so that more people post on Twitter etc about taking amateur clubs to the Champions League trophy and advertise their game. Hopefully it's not that reason and SI can actually improve this, because winning a game that seems to want you to win isn't very fulfilling. I have had more fun languishing around in mid table season after season in a challenging game.

That's why I've gone back to FM17 for the third year in a row.  Overpowered morale and broken tactics are two things I can't counter-balance with the self-imposed challenges I set myself when playing 18, 19 and 20..  Whereas FM17 is far more challenging than those three and easier to find the balance when setting myself goals.. its not perfect... but challenge-wise, its streets ahead of the versions that came after.

I think one compounding issue that's reinforced by the flaws highlighted in this thread and on the ME bugs forum, is that SI constantly flesh the game out with more and more features that are specifically designed to help the player understand, and ultimately dominate, their gameworld.  They're there to facilitate us in our journey to overcome the opposition.  Everything new is therefore advantageous to the human player, and there doesn't seem to be a counterbalance to this.  So it gets easier to succeed with every iteration of the game the more its filled with such features.  And we can't turn them off or really avoid them - they're built in as standard and in your face.

There really needs to be a counterbalance to all the bells and whistles they add - something that's optional and can be ticked in preferences, like turning off visual attributes (bring back the bars for example), maybe add better options that add more ambiguity to scout reports, turn off the new features etc so a lot of the stuff is stripped away for those that find it too advantageous.  Not exactly 'skill levels' but something that allows players to set up their game with handicaps if needs be.  To find our own balance, we shouldn't have to spend weeks and months making attribute-hiding skins and working out which overpowering tactics to avoid.  It should be built in to the game itself.. as options.

Also.. I'm not sure I fully subscribe to your conspiracy theory, but it wouldn't surprise me if that kind of thinking plays a small role in this games 'development'.  As I mentioned earlier in this thread, SI would likely get swamped with far more complaints and refund requests if the game was too hard for the masses to easily succeed at.

Regarding FM21, I'll see what the January update does to address the lingering issues from last year and the new ones raised in this thread before SI get another penny from me.

[CX1329]

I'm not finding the game too easy, and this comes after overachieving on FM19 (I did buy 20 but barely played it, so I'm disregarding it). I'm struggling to achieve any results with Hampton & Richmond and I've been trying multiple tactical approaches! Maybe y'all are just really good at the game. I'm no newbie, I've bought every single iteration of FM (and CM before it), but I'm still not the greatest tactical mind in football.  

[HCFC87]

6 hours ago, bazhsw said:

I also wonder if certain tactics are successful because they are considered 'popular' or the best in tactical evolution and the game reflects it?  A theme in this thread is that most are using a Gegenpress variation on how Liverpool play and it 'works' and is flavour of the month until the next tactical evolution. I imagine 1930's FM would have a load complaining about the effectiveness of the W-M....

 

Regarding the overpowered Gegenpress - there will always be tactics that are more popular than others. The issue isn't even that the Gegenpress is more powerful than other formations - it's that it's more powerful seemingly regardless of what team you're using. Everyone from the amateur leagues to Real Madrid can use it seemingly with no real downsides. In real life Accrington Stanley don't Gegenpress their way to promotion every season!

 

On FM19 I had a save with Fulham. Since they were completely outclassed in the Premier League I decided to try a defensive counter attack formation and set us up accordingly. We didn't get a win in 10, I was lucky not to get sacked, and we were adrift at the bottom of the table. In desperation I opted for a pressing formation (not knowing at that point just how overpowered the tactic was, I just needed to try something different). We immediately went on an amazing run, and ended up comfortably in mid-table. With a team that really should have been relegated or close to being relegated.

 

It's overpowered to the extent that other tactics don't even come close.

 

SI need to look at why every team in world football doesn't press all game, and find a way to implement it in FM. In reality using it should leave chasms of space unless your players know what they're doing, and should tire everyone out rapidly. None of these things really happen in FM - and if they do they're more than made up for by the goals you score at the other end.

 

6 hours ago, bazhsw said:

- are you playing in the spirit of football management or are your actions creating unrealistic advantages 

- has your accumulated knowledge or the knowledge of others in the community turned you into an advanced user? The game cannot keep pace with you and remain accessible to the wide audience.  The game hasn't changed that much and the 'experts' you are learning from are using knowledge from hundreds of others built up over decades.

- are you still having fun?  What would make it fun?

- what one thing could S.I do to improve.  Use the features and bugs forums to highlight.

As for these:

1) I would say I am playing in the spirit of the game, though I have used triallists quite a lot. That said, lower league teams do use triallists a fair amount. Like above, I think SI need to look at why teams don't just use loads of triallists in place of scouting and put barriers up in the game to this.

2) I've played since the CM 00/01 days, but I definitely wouldn't consider myself a tactical genius. I rarely (if ever) win any trophies in my saves, I'm happy to get a promotion here and there and stabilise the team as best I can, winning the CL with every team isn't really my goal.

3) I am having more fun on FM21 than FM20, purely because the match engine is miles better. It's not perfect, but at least 80% of the goals aren't from set pieces anymore. I also don't mind the UI changes. There are improvements needed, but it's a positive step for me. That said, the lack of any real challenge is worrying. I want promotion to be a momentus occasion, not the formality it currently is.

4) For me it's loads of little things rather than one or two huge things. But player ratings are something that need an overhaul. The entire spectrum of 0-10.0 is barely ever seen, with all your players sitting between 6.5-6.7 unless they score or assist. It tells you nothing about the game unless a goal is scored.

[danielclouston1]

On 26/12/2020 at 19:28, 4football said:

Polski97
 

which tactic are you using?

same as this one?

4231 Gegenpress beats almost everything, unless the team you are facing is much much higher in quality. I win almost everything with a 4231 Gegenpress I created.

[bazhsw]

@HCFC87 I don't think using trialists is a problem at all (and A. Triallist has a brilliant scoring record in friendlies at certain levels).  As you said, at a certain level it's pretty much a key way of recruiting.

 

My comment was more aimed at those who said 'it's easy I just get hundreds of trialists to get the best players'.  I have visions of these football clubs needing 50 pitches and equivalent coaches doing training with them all.  I saw someone on a thread once say they went through every higher clubs released list and offered trials to EVERYONE.

 

Re Gegenpress, it does seem going off here that the tactic isn't balanced in terms of it's effectiveness.

[freddieos]

1 hour ago, HCFC87 said:

But player ratings are something that need an overhaul. The entire spectrum of 0-10.0 is barely ever seen, with all your players sitting between 6.5-6.7 unless they score or assist. It tells you nothing about the game unless a goal is scored.

That's a very good point. Not thought of before but so obvious now that you've enlightened me.

[Dan1884]

Came in this thread to make a point that I feel that this is almost a bit too easy, to the point I'm not actually finding it all that rewarding. I'm managing FC Annecy, third tier of France, it's their first year up in that league and I got promoted with one of the smallest wage budgets in the league.

So now I'm in Ligue 2, with the smallest wage budget in the league, for some context, a smaller wage budget than Grimsby Town. Yet I'm looking a steady bet to get promoted again.

My tactic is nothing too special. I switch between a 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3, both quite nicely balanced, based on opposition and availability of my players. I have about 3 instructions on each tactic.

I shouldn't be complaining at doing well, but I'm almost getting 4-3-1-2 FM17 vibes about this - on that I took Oxford from League Two to the Premier League in consecutive seasons, beating a star studded Manchester United 3-0 once I'd gotten there. I'd hit the point where I felt the game was broken - I still had a midfielder in my XI who was with me in League Two. There is overachievement, and then there was this, and this was so easy it actually took the fun out of the game for me.

I'm sadly getting vibes of that all over again. I could just be playing it well (and I'd say I'm reasonable, I have played the game for years and generally overachieve with whoever I manage) but this is becoming something else altogether. Am I the only one feeling like it?