under review AI managers not trying to attack when they are behind

[GOODNAME]

AS Monaco v Lille OSC.pkmAS Monaco v FC Lorient.pkm

 

[GOODNAME]

Another one 

FC Lorient v AS Monaco.pkm

 

[rodau]

It seem that you have a high possession tactic and yours opponents is struggling on it (weak teams, excepting Lille).

By the way, whats your tactic approach? I like it.

[GOODNAME]

9 minutes ago, rodau said:

It seem that you have a high possession tactic and yours opponents is struggling on it (weak teams, excepting Lille).

By the way, whats your tactic approach? I like it.

my problem is when im ahead the opposition never changing their formations and try to attack more, they just defend all the game with 9 players on their box

Its not realistic, when teams are behind they at least trying to play more attacking football 

Edited November 28, 2020 by GOODNAME

[GOODNAME]

AI managers never attacking me when they are behind..

 

 

[rodau]

From what I've learn, there's some passive play from the AI's teams, even when they are behind. But in your case I think that your tactic is making your opponents get stuck.
I had a tactic which gave 64% on ball possession, but I had some problems.
I'll try to replicate your idea. Thanks

[GOODNAME]

2 minutes ago, rodau said:

From what I've learn, there's some passive play from the AI's teams, even when they are behind. But in your case I think that your tactic is making your opponents get stuck.
I had a tactic which gave 64% on ball possession, but I had some problems.
I'll try to replicate your idea. Thanks

My tactic is not the issue mate

The issue is when the opposition team are behind, they not change formation and mentality to more attacking one. 

[GOODNAME]

Up

[CJ Ramson]

@GOODNAME these are great examples, thanks for uploading. We're currently looking into this issue, as it might not actually come from the match engine.

We have debug tools where we can see exactly what mentality the AI manager is using and when they switch so these PKMs where you suspect defensive tendencies are important for us to look at.

If yourself or anyone else has other examples, please upload the PKM to this thread.

[GOODNAME]

On 02/12/2020 at 19:37, CJ Ramson said:

@GOODNAME these are great examples, thanks for uploading. We're currently looking into this issue, as it might not actually come from the match engine.

We have debug tools where we can see exactly what mentality the AI manager is using and when they switch so these PKMs where you suspect defensive tendencies are important for us to look at.

If yourself or anyone else has other examples, please upload the PKM to this thread.

Thanks

Here another one

First chance at 88th minutes 

AS Monaco v RC Lens.pkm

[GOODNAME]

On 02/12/2020 at 19:37, CJ Ramson said:

@GOODNAME these are great examples, thanks for uploading. We're currently looking into this issue, as it might not actually come from the match engine.

We have debug tools where we can see exactly what mentality the AI manager is using and when they switch so these PKMs where you suspect defensive tendencies are important for us to look at.

If yourself or anyone else has other examples, please upload the PKM to this thread.

Another one

And they were 3rd place!

Stade Rennais v AS Monaco.pkm

Edited December 6, 2020 by GOODNAME

[Mars_Blackmon]

On 02/12/2020 at 12:37, CJ Ramson said:

@GOODNAME these are great examples, thanks for uploading. We're currently looking into this issue, as it might not actually come from the match engine.

We have debug tools where we can see exactly what mentality the AI manager is using and when they switch so these PKMs where you suspect defensive tendencies are important for us to look at.

If yourself or anyone else has other examples, please upload the PKM to this thread.

I just had another game where my assistant manager suggested that I start the game with Very defensive mentality during the tactical meeting. Could this also be happening to some AI teams as well?

 

Next time I run into it I’ll upload a Save before the game.

[GOODNAME]

4 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

I just had another game where my assistant manager suggested that I start the game with Very defensive mentality during the tactical meeting. Could this also be happening to some AI teams as well?

 

Next time I run into it I’ll upload a Save before the game.

Well i dont know mate.

But im happy that they are looking into this

[Mars_Blackmon]

33 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

Well i dont know mate.

But im happy that they are looking into this

In a beta thread he mentioned that this wasn’t suppose to happen and if it does, it’s a bug. It have me wondering if AI will start the game as very defensive from time to time also resulting in very passive attack from the AI.

[Weller1980]

2 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

In a beta thread he mentioned that this wasn’t suppose to happen and if it does, it’s a bug. It have me wondering if AI will start the game as very defensive from time to time also resulting in very passive attack from the AI.

So is this ai behavior random and doesn't happen in every game when the ai losing? 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Weller1980

[Mars_Blackmon]

47 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

So is this ai behavior random and doesn't happen in every game when the ai losing? 

Really hard to tell. Sometimes they’ll come out very defensive all game then turn in up the 80th minute down by 2-3. Other times they play regular but if they are losing they will turtle up and play defensive for the entire game.

 

I think it may have to do with being favored or underdog with Home/away factoring in. 
 

AI might be too conservative and the AI also take forever to adjust its tactics during a game.

[GOODNAME]

On 02/12/2020 at 19:37, CJ Ramson said:

@GOODNAME these are great examples, thanks for uploading. We're currently looking into this issue, as it might not actually come from the match engine.

We have debug tools where we can see exactly what mentality the AI manager is using and when they switch so these PKMs where you suspect defensive tendencies are important for us to look at.

If yourself or anyone else has other examples, please upload the PKM to this thread.

Another one

 

AS Monaco v OGC Nice.pkm

[Weller1980]

@CJ RamsonAre we likely to seem some improvements to AI tactic mentality in the next update? Thanks .

[GOODNAME]

On 02/12/2020 at 19:37, CJ Ramson said:

@GOODNAME these are great examples, thanks for uploading. We're currently looking into this issue, as it might not actually come from the match engine.

We have debug tools where we can see exactly what mentality the AI manager is using and when they switch so these PKMs where you suspect defensive tendencies are important for us to look at.

If yourself or anyone else has other examples, please upload the PKM to this thread.

Hey in the 21.2 patch this is been fixed? 

[Weller1980]

7 hours ago, GOODNAME said:

Hey in the 21.2 patch this is been fixed? 

I would also like to know if this has been fixed or improved? Looking at patch notes I don't see anything obvious to say it's been fixed. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Weller1980

[Weller1980]

Looking at some results it's quite obvious the problem hasn't been fixed. What a shame, I'm very disappointed.

Any update from the Dev team on this? @GOODNAMEhas submitted some good examples and they haven't even been downloaded. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Weller1980

[h3nrique_SEP]

i've started a save with Real Sociedad

Playing a 3-4-3 attacking with very high press and lines, i conceeded 3 goals in 4 matches, 0.75 per match

In real life Bayern conceeded 18 in 12 games, 1.5 per game

Or my defense is better than Bayern or i'm not beeing attacked by the AI

[GOODNAME]

Another examples, 0 shots by the AI 

Huesca דגנ Barcelona.pkmGranada דגנ Barcelona.pkmElche דגנ Real Madrid.pkmReal Valladolid דגנ Real Madrid.pkmAlavés דגנ Valencia.pkm

[GOODNAME]

Granada דגנ Valencia.pkm

[GOODNAME]

Huesca דגנ Valencia.pkm

[GOODNAME]

At. Madrid with 0 shots VS Real Madrid

Atlético de Madrid דגנ Real Madrid.pkm

[Mars_Blackmon]

On 18/12/2020 at 02:34, Weller1980 said:

Looking at some results it's quite obvious the problem hasn't been fixed. What a shame, I'm very disappointed.

Any update from the Dev team on this? @GOODNAMEhas submitted some good examples and they haven't even been downloaded. 

There have been plenty of good examples posted in this thread and barely any of them have been downloaded...I guess this just isn’t a priority to fix which is a shame.

[penza]

On 06/12/2020 at 15:04, Mars_Blackmon said:

I just had another game where my assistant manager suggested that I start the game with Very defensive mentality during the tactical meeting. Could this also be happening to some AI teams as well?

 

Next time I run into it I’ll upload a Save before the game.

Which team?

[GOODNAME]

20 minutes ago, penza said:

Which team?

It doesn't matter, any team in the world when they are behind will try to change formation to more attacking approach

And in all of those PKM's, they wont do it.

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, penza said:

Which team?

Oxford City

[Weller1980]

Here you go..... Newcastle zero shots on goal.

 

Man City v Newcastle.pkm

Edited December 20, 2020 by Weller1980

[Platinum]

On 19/12/2020 at 15:01, GOODNAME said:

It doesn't matter, any team in the world when they are behind will try to change formation to more attacking approach

And in all of those PKM's, they wont do it.

In real life sometimes teams wont attack because they know they are likely to concede more goals if they do that. Especially if they are playing against a top side, so they will settle for a 1 - 0 loss rather than attacking and potentially losing 4 - 0

[Mars_Blackmon]

31 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

In real life sometimes teams wont attack because they know they are likely to concede more goals if they do that. Especially if they are playing against a top side, so they will settle for a 1 - 0 loss rather than attacking and potentially losing 4 - 0

It’s a problem when 75% of the teams in your league are doing this especially when they are at home.

[Pasonen]

On 18/12/2020 at 22:02, GOODNAME said:

At. Madrid with 0 shots VS Real Madrid

Atlético de Madrid דגנ Real Madrid.pkm 78.11 kB · 1 download

I checked this game and main reason AT.Madrid didnt get a single shot away was this horrible decision to use tactic what includes 2 DM 4-4-1-1. Why on earth would you use 2 dm tactic when opponent have no AMC and 1 st. ofc if you want just keep hold on the ball its okay, but against tactic what includes player in DM position more support is needed higher to get anything going on upwards. Now AT.Madrid attacker received 7 passes in whole game 7! I took 2 GK openers away. AMC received 18 passes, Took away throw-ins. AT. Madrid also lost a man in 48 minutes for a red card. So its not just the mentality they are using AI also is very lowsy time to time when choosing a formation.

[Mars_Blackmon]

Here's a screen shot of my assman suggestion to go Very Defensive to start the game.

[GOODNAME]

6 hours ago, Pasonen said:

I checked this game and main reason AT.Madrid didnt get a single shot away was this horrible decision to use tactic what includes 2 DM 4-4-1-1. Why on earth would you use 2 dm tactic when opponent have no AMC and 1 st. ofc if you want just keep hold on the ball its okay, but against tactic what includes player in DM position more support is needed higher to get anything going on upwards. Now AT.Madrid attacker received 7 passes in whole game 7! I took 2 GK openers away. AMC received 18 passes, Took away throw-ins. AT. Madrid also lost a man in 48 minutes for a red card. So its not just the mentality they are using AI also is very lowsy time to time when choosing a formation.

Barcelona With 1 shot Against Real Madrid

Barcelona דגנ Real Madrid.pkm

Edited December 20, 2020 by GOODNAME

[Weller1980]

I think its fair to say its not happening in every game. I see plenty of occasions when teams are 1-0 or 2-0 down and come back to either win or draw. Is there a particular scenario which triggers managers to go defensive? Anyway i don't think the problem is as bad as initially thought?  

[andu1]

Maybe they don't try to attack every game because this might happen?  But i do think that some formations that exist in the game and some AI managers are setup in the database to be their defensive formations are maybe too unbalanced, or the AI don't use the correct roles/instructions. ( 4-4-1-1 2 DM is an example of such formation )

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by andu1

[GOODNAME]

7 hours ago, Weller1980 said:

I think its fair to say its not happening in every game. I see plenty of occasions when teams are 1-0 or 2-0 down and come back to either win or draw. Is there a particular scenario which triggers managers to go defensive? Anyway i don't think the problem is as bad as initially thought?  

Thats right.

Its not every game and i see a lot of managers that attacking when their behind, but also like in those examples im seeing a lot of managers that dont do anything were they behind

I just cannot get over the 1 shots of Barca agianst Real Madrid

[Mars_Blackmon]

Seems around the 80th minute and down is when the AI sometimes try to attack. Have anyone seen a different time line?

[Mcfc1894]

 I'm Everton a good team but not one of the best See a lot of Managers start of Away games with a defensive mentality. Surely Cautious mentality would be a better way to go for most teams 

[Mars_Blackmon]

30 minutes ago, Mcfc1894 said:

 I'm Everton a good team but not one of the best See a lot of Managers start of Away games with a defensive mentality. Surely Cautious mentality would be a better way to go for most teams 

Apparently that’s not suppose to happen. Teams aren’t suppose to start the game as defensive or very defensive buts it’s happening very frequently...

[GOODNAME]

Any mods can tell news about this  topic?

[GOODNAME]

@CJ Ramson

@Jemal Wiseman

I provided a lot of exampls over here, any news maybe about this? thank you

[GOODNAME]

Anyone?

[CJ Ramson]

The majority of the QA team were off over the festive period, it was also made clear there would be limited replies on the forums over that time.

Thanks for all the pkms, it's exactly what we need. It really isn't as simple as just making the AI managers attack more, this would likely lead to an even more unbalanced match and results. We are investigating the issue but it is something I would rather take time on and get right than rush a fix for.

[Weller1980]

1 hour ago, CJ Ramson said:

The majority of the QA team were off over the festive period, it was also made clear there would be limited replies on the forums over that time.

Thanks for all the pkms, it's exactly what we need. It really isn't as simple as just making the AI managers attack more, this would likely lead to an even more unbalanced match and results. We are investigating the issue but it is something I would rather take time on and get right than rush a fix for.

@CJ RamsonAppreciate the feedback but you said on the 2nd Dec this was currently under review here we are one month on and it's still being investigated? Are you no closer to identifying what's wrong? Reading between the lines I worry this won't be fixed for fm2021 can you give any reassurances this will be fixed for fm21? Thanks

Edited January 4, 2021 by Weller1980

[GOODNAME]

6 hours ago, CJ Ramson said:

The majority of the QA team were off over the festive period, it was also made clear there would be limited replies on the forums over that time.

Thanks for all the pkms, it's exactly what we need. It really isn't as simple as just making the AI managers attack more, this would likely lead to an even more unbalanced match and results. We are investigating the issue but it is something I would rather take time on and get right than rush a fix for.

Thanks for the responase! 

 

5 hours ago, Weller1980 said:

@CJ RamsonAppreciate the feedback but you said on the 2nd Dec this was currently under review here we are one month on and it's still being investigated? Are you no closer to identifying what's wrong? Reading between the lines I worry this won't be fixed for fm2021 can you give any reassurances this will be fixed for fm21? Thanks

I dont think this will fix in FM 21 because 21.3 will be out in at the start of March.. and i dont think they will have enogh time to fix this

[Mars_Blackmon]

I guess a new feature for FM22 will be smarter, attacking AI.

[freddieos]

12 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

I guess a new feature for FM22 will be smarter, attacking AI.

I thought you also use majesticeternity's mod, which does exactly that?

Edited January 5, 2021 by freddieos