On what versions of FM is Gegenpress overpowered?

[WojciechZed]

I know a lot of people said the Gegenpress tactic was overpowered in FM20, but some have even said it was overpowered in both FM19 and FM20 and is still overpowered in FM21. 

I admit that I tried the Gegenpress tactic in FM19 (I don't own FM20) with a few teams and it doesn't seem to be guaranteeing me good results. Was it therefore only FM20 where it was overpowered?

[vukigepard]

2 minutes ago, WojciechZed said:

I know a lot of people said the Gegenpress tactic was overpowered in FM20, but some have even said it was overpowered in both FM19 and FM20 and is still overpowered in FM21. 

I admit that I tried the Gegenpress tactic in FM19 (I don't own FM20) with a few teams and it doesn't seem to be guaranteeing me good results. Was it therefore only FM20 where it was overpowered?

When it comes to great teams (not just starting database great, but stronger than those later in the game when newgens emerge and wondedkids develop) it's not overpowered. When it comes to average teams (attribute wise), it's op. That's my experience, attributes don't have enough of the impact, but it's rather subtle, tactics on the other hand have direct impact, when in reality, it's a  subtle, indirect impact. That's my viewpoint.

[Junkhead]

2 minutes ago, WojciechZed said:

I know a lot of people said the Gegenpress tactic was overpowered in FM20, but some have even said it was overpowered in both FM19 and FM20 and is still overpowered in FM21. 

I admit that I tried the Gegenpress tactic in FM19 (I don't own FM20) with a few teams and it doesn't seem to be guaranteeing me good results. Was it therefore only FM20 where it was overpowered?

I have not used this tactic personally across FM20 or FM21. There is a general feeling that it was overpowered in FM20. 

There has been an indication that this is still the case in FM21 following the release of the beta.  A percentage (not all) of the users saying they found the game easy were using the out of box Gegenpressing tactic, or variations of it.

A lot of the evidence of this is anecdotal though, and someone using this tactic is likely to be doing lots of other things too which will contribute towards success. However a few people shared holiday saves where they had overachieved having done nothing but set a variation of a gegenpress tactic as the default.

Hope this helps 👍

[WojciechZed]

@vukigepard what version is that in?

Thanks @Junkhead. I know some people have said when they want to be sure of success they just use Gegenpress. They basically feel it is pointless to think up a formation and style to play, when you can just choose Gegenpress and be sure to get wins. I certainly remembered this being complained about in FM20, but wondered if it was the case in other versions.

[vukigepard]

21 minutes ago, WojciechZed said:

@vukigepard what version is that in?

Thanks @Junkhead. I know some people have said when they want to be sure of success they just use Gegenpress. They basically feel it is pointless to think up a formation and style to play, when you can just choose Gegenpress and be sure to get wins. I certainly remembered this being complained about in FM20, but wondered if it was the case in other versions.

I was talking about my experience throughout fm19 to fm21

[Spikey]

I created a very attacking gegenpress style 4-2-3-1 tactic in FM 14 and it was definitely more effective than any tactic I’d used previously.

In FM20 I actually found a bog standard 4-4-2 with a split block more effective than gegenpress. Was more solid defensively and because it created less chances it was also less frustrating not having watch strikers pea roll loads of shots at the keeper.

[sthptngomad76]

On 25/11/2020 at 23:33, vukigepard said:

When it comes to great teams (not just starting database great, but stronger than those later in the game when newgens emerge and wondedkids develop) it's not overpowered. When it comes to average teams (attribute wise), it's op. That's my experience, attributes don't have enough of the impact, but it's rather subtle, tactics on the other hand have direct impact, when in reality, it's a  subtle, indirect impact. That's my viewpoint.

This. Attributes just don't have the impact that they should.

[pats]

Are there more injuries, fitness drop or some kind of penalty for using gegenpressing 24x7 in FM21 though?

 

[Daveincid]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb pats:

Are there more injuries, fitness drop or some kind of penalty for using gegenpressing 24x7 in FM21 though?

 

yes, if you use the file from @majesticeternity,but only your team and all teams where matches simulated in full detail are affected

Edited December 12, 2020 by Daveincid

[Rashidi]

I have a whole bunch of friends smashing the AI on a low block, and outperforming the AI at each and every turn.  The fundamental precept is how you defend. Lately I have been explaining how to do a controlled block like Mourinho's block and this is just one example of how people are beating sides without having to resort to gegenpressing

.al 

The fundamental idea here is to play a controlled block and showing the opposition to areas where their chances are typically low xg then hitting them rapidly on the counter.  So I for one don't believe gegenpressing is OP.  They are strong, but not necessarily guaranteed to beat you.  On my last youtube stream someone asked if a 343 could be played in a controlled mid block. I was playing as Dundee United so I created one on the fly. We went down to 10 men after 9 minutes but were still able to keep Glasgow Rangers to a 1-1 draw. They only had two chances that ever threatened our goal.  At the end of the day, the preset isn't OP, its the human who is OP. 

 

[afailed10]

1 hora atrás, Rashidi disse:

I have a whole bunch of friends smashing the AI on a low block, and outperforming the AI at each and every turn.  The fundamental precept is how you defend. Lately I have been explaining how to do a controlled block like Mourinho's block and this is just one example of how people are beating sides without having to resort to gegenpressing

.al 

The fundamental idea here is to play a controlled block and showing the opposition to areas where their chances are typically low xg then hitting them rapidly on the counter.  So I for one don't believe gegenpressing is OP.  They are strong, but not necessarily guaranteed to beat you.  On my last youtube stream someone asked if a 343 could be played in a controlled mid block. I was playing as Dundee United so I created one on the fly. We went down to 10 men after 9 minutes but were still able to keep Glasgow Rangers to a 1-1 draw. They only had two chances that ever threatened our goal.  At the end of the day, the preset isn't OP, its the human who is OP. 

 

I agree with what you say but that match is not a particularly exceptional example. Ajax had higher xG and missed a penalty. It's not difficult to beat the AI when they are just so careless against low rep teams. So any type of block can work in those situations it's just a matter of dealing with their threats. If the setup is solid then an ultra gegenpress setup would perhaps be even more effective.

[Rashidi]

A team can have a high xG with a lot of shots as well, but yeah i will just pop up one where I have a challenge going with a newly promoted side. The rule: You can only use one tactic per game month and then the next guy takes over and he cannot use the same formation. And oh yeah...we can ONLY use low blocks.
So far... low blocks are outperforming in a lot of games that we are playing. Here is another low block, I can keep on adding examples, if you would like :-). Ultra gegenpressing is so overrated.

 

[frukox]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I have a whole bunch of friends smashing the AI on a low block, and outperforming the AI at each and every turn.  The fundamental precept is how you defend. Lately I have been explaining how to do a controlled block like Mourinho's block and this is just one example of how people are beating sides without having to resort to gegenpressing

.al 

The fundamental idea here is to play a controlled block and showing the opposition to areas where their chances are typically low xg then hitting them rapidly on the counter.  So I for one don't believe gegenpressing is OP.  They are strong, but not necessarily guaranteed to beat you.  On my last youtube stream someone asked if a 343 could be played in a controlled mid block. I was playing as Dundee United so I created one on the fly. We went down to 10 men after 9 minutes but were still able to keep Glasgow Rangers to a 1-1 draw. They only had two chances that ever threatened our goal.  At the end of the day, the preset isn't OP, its the human who is OP. 

 

Rashidi, I'm still on FM20 and waiting for a purchase after they solve critical issues with the game such as a strange UI, youth intake and dysfunctional buttons in the interface and I really wonder if the ME can play out any kind of style without any excessive passing focus down the flanks? Can you please share your findings with me or any other avid readers? 

[Experienced Defender]

I have never personally used gegenpress of any sort - not do I intend to - so I cannot say whether it's OP or not from my own experience. But judging from people's comments here in the forum, some claim they've had a lot of success with GP whereas others complained they've struggled terribly, both in attack and defense. There have also been examples of people being very successful with GP initially (i.e. in the early stage of their respective saves), but then suddenly began to struggle.

Therefore, I guess it's not OP per se. 

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, frukox said:

Rashidi, I'm still on FM20 and waiting for a purchase after they solve critical issues with the game such as a strange UI, youth intake and dysfunctional buttons in the interface and I really wonder if the ME can play out any kind of style without any excessive passing focus down the flanks? Can you please share your findings with me or any other avid readers? 

I don't want you to rush in and make a buying decision based on what I say. Ultimately you need to choose for yourself. There are some serious issues with FM21, of that I am in total agreement. The newgen intakes are of course very worrying, and yes they need to be fixed. Personally I am enjoying the game ,because I have always loved the tactical and training side of things. The UI can be fixed with a mod, did you see my reaction to the TCS Skin? My wife told me I woke the family up with my reaction. As far as styles of play are concerned, I don't want to cast shade on anyones enjoyment of the game. For some the newgen intake issue can be gamebreaking if you are the sort to invest thousands of hours into a youth only save. I am not. 
 

A friend of mine just told me that his mates think he is cheating in a network game because he is using a low block system and topping the lead while their gegen pressing systems can't beat him. One of my favourite tactics is a 343 diamond and a 4321 both of which I have yet to release, but neither uses the flanks for attacks. The game isn't perfect but as far as I am concerned, I am having fun with the match engine.

[frukox]

9 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I don't want you to rush in and make a buying decision based on what I say. Ultimately you need to choose for yourself. There are some serious issues with FM21, of that I am in total agreement. The newgen intakes are of course very worrying, and yes they need to be fixed. Personally I am enjoying the game ,because I have always loved the tactical and training side of things. The UI can be fixed with a mod, did you see my reaction to the TCS Skin? My wife told me I woke the family up with my reaction. As far as styles of play are concerned, I don't want to cast shade on anyones enjoyment of the game. For some the newgen intake issue can be gamebreaking if you are the sort to invest thousands of hours into a youth only save. I am not. 
 

A friend of mine just told me that his mates think he is cheating in a network game because he is using a low block system and topping the lead while their gegen pressing systems can't beat him. One of my favourite tactics is a 343 diamond and a 4321 both of which I have yet to release, but neither uses the flanks for attacks. The game isn't perfect but as far as I am concerned, I am having fun with the match engine.

No, I didn't see your reaction to that skin but definitely I'll check it out. 

Yeah, I Iike to play with the youth, love developing them and seeing them play in my teams. Then, selling them for a large profit is my favorite so it's definitely a gamebreaker for me. 

With regard to the match engine, of course I understand why you are saying so but I wonder if there is a realistic amount of throughballs through the middle even if they fail to reach their targets or one-twos during build-ups or realistic dribblings- players stop doing it when they feel the opening is closed or realistic long shots or realistic amount of goals from set-pieces or realistic defenses-not every team can play in a deep and narrow block successfully you know or support duty strikers coming deep in the final third which I hate in FM20. 

[Falahk]

Honestly, on fm you can overachieve with any tactical system as long as it's well constructed and suit the players you have at your disposal 

[mikcheck]

To be honest, I never play with a high block, whatever the team I'm managing is. Normally use higher DL/ normal LOE, normal DL/LOE or normal DL/ lower LOE. So mid and low block.

[Experienced Defender]

35 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

Normally use higher DL/ normal LOE

That's exactly the combo I've generally had most success with 

[NedXiong]

I would say gegenpressing is definitely an op tactic when you play against ai teams, but it doesn't mean that the game lacks balance. Actually gegenpressing tactic is quite possible to counter with quick direct overhead long balls plus pacy strikers, but ai teams are less likely to tweak their tactics accordingly. Also in higher leagues, more ai teams tend to play possession based football, so it's easily slaughtered by gegenpressing tactics. On the contrary in llm where many teams play low block direct counter or even route one, you'll find high line and intense pressing are not that op.

BTW: The thing that seems unreasonable for me is that those gegen tactics or other op tactics always require so high intensity(always a full red bar) and I expect such tactics should lead to more player jadedness and injuries throughout the whole season, but it doesn't seem so in the game.

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by NedXiong

[FMunderachiever]

Gegenpress can leave you very vulnerable at the back to through balls.

 

Its a good approach with the right players who can maintain the intensity of the pressing and make the right decisions off the ball when defending, but it can also see you getting countered easily.

 

I might use gegenpress elements, but gegenpress itself can be a bit extreme

[smbabur911]

On 12/12/2020 at 19:34, Rashidi said:

I have a whole bunch of friends smashing the AI on a low block, and outperforming the AI at each and every turn.  The fundamental precept is how you defend. Lately I have been explaining how to do a controlled block like Mourinho's block and this is just one example of how people are beating sides without having to resort to gegenpressing

.al 

The fundamental idea here is to play a controlled block and showing the opposition to areas where their chances are typically low xg then hitting them rapidly on the counter.  So I for one don't believe gegenpressing is OP.  They are strong, but not necessarily guaranteed to beat you.  On my last youtube stream someone asked if a 343 could be played in a controlled mid block. I was playing as Dundee United so I created one on the fly. We went down to 10 men after 9 minutes but were still able to keep Glasgow Rangers to a 1-1 draw. They only had two chances that ever threatened our goal.  At the end of the day, the preset isn't OP, its the human who is OP. 

 

I already made a post regarding this. But still didn't have any success. But you seem to be enjoying a lot of success with low blocks. Although its with underdog teams still nice to see. Can you advice me on how to go about recreating Spur's Jose tactics. AI definitely can't play it because Spurs get relegated in many saves. But in real life Jose is having a lot of success playing on the counter with a big team. I would love if you give me some advice.

 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Dunno if it's OP, but don't most top teams play a high press, high(ish) line system? So, it makes sense you'd see some benefit to doing so. I think, maybe there's an argument weaker teams should be knackered trying to do that all the time, but otherwise it's pretty neat.

 

Personally, I use the gegen template but turn down the tempo etc, because it's already super-aggressive from the base template setting.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, smbabur911 said:

But in real life Jose is having a lot of success playing on the counter with a big team

Yes, but only against other big/top teams. Against weaker opposition, Jose plays in a noticeably different manner. He is a very flexible manager/tactician, which is one of key reasons for his success. 

Also note that playing a counter-attacking style of football and using counter-attacks as an additional tactical weapon in a tactic that is not necessarily counter-attacking in terms of the primary tactical style are two different things. Perhaps the most notable example is Klopp. 

[smbabur911]

Just now, Experienced Defender said:

Yes, but only against other big/top teams. Against weaker opposition, Jose plays in a noticeably different manner. He is a very flexible manager/tactician, which is one of key reasons for his success. 

Also note that playing a counter-attacking style of football and using counter-attacks as an additional tactical weapon in a tactic that is not necessarily counter-attacking in terms of the primary tactical style are two different things. Perhaps the most notable example is Klopp. 

His first priority is not to concede. Then from there he goes on to create teams which plays for 1-0 wins. And he has done it consistently. Against Arsenal and City it worked but against Crystal Palace it didn't as they scored the equaliser but that happens. Most of us play with smaller teams and any help in recreating his big game tactics would be helpful. Many people suggested positive mentality but i am not sure. Cos I have played counter on positive mentality. Teams don't have that focus on keeping clean sheet as in lower mentalities where they throw themselves to protect the lead. AI plays with lower mentality and many defensive duties against me. And it is possible to score both on the counter as well with possession. So just need some help with a true recreation of his tactics. As a big fan of Jose ill love playing his way rather than klopp or pep way. 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, smbabur911 said:

His first priority is not to concede. Then from there he goes on to create teams which plays for 1-0 wins. And he has done it consistently

Absolutely. Jose is never going to be as attack-minded as Klopp or Pep, but it still does not mean that he plays a low-block style or defensive football in every single match. But he is definitely more comfortable when playing defensively than when expected to attack and take the game to the opposition. 

 

2 hours ago, smbabur911 said:

As a big fan of Jose ill love playing his way rather than klopp or pep way

I am also a fan of the "defense first" approach