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Youth Intake Broken Just Like Beta


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31 minutes ago, lukavski said:

You will always have permanent managers in playable leagues like the Premier. That is not the problem in this thread.

i know, which is why im confused why you bring it up to me this issue is more than the mangerless clubs and non playable, if the same club produces two different outcomes between ai or human controlled

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3 hours ago, lukavski said:

So, it seems is related to the "managerless" clubs problem. No playable Clubs, and some low reputation leagues, won't hire any manager after sacking the one they start with in the game. And it looks like clubs without a manager won't get a full intake.

This isnt what this thread is bout and it's not related to intake

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Youth intake is wonky for me as well. Custom Leagues are broken regarding youth intake. I've spent more time testing then playing this year's FM :(, which sucks because outside of youth intake, this is the best FM edition yet- imo.

I have been trying to get my custom league (with created teams) to work on FM 21. I used this custom league in prior years with no youth intake problems. This year, youth intake is broken for custom leagues, I have done a bunch of testing, setting the nation and all custom clubs to perfect ratings, moved custom league into Germany and other top nations- nothing worked. My custom league gets very few newgens, and they're low PA even for teams with high rep/high youth recruitment ratings and 180 National youth rating. First year newgens above 120 PA, totaled 25 players (from 130 custom clubs) with a national youth rating of 180. For comparison, in the same save Germany's top league (18 clubs) had 130+ newgens above 120 PA. This the lack of newgens for custom leagues is game breaking.

Edited by michael21
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i have the same problem in my save and test results are also the same.it is really sad 

On 23/01/2021 at 21:17, acidmonkey said:

so ive been mucking about with save a little as this has annoyed me a little

so as AI Controlled

teams get 2/3 youth players a year 2033 (my current game year being no different)

i then reloaded to the week before the intake added managers to all prem clubs

with human controls ever club brought in 18 new youth players?

also seems if i add a manager but retire them before the actuall intake day  the intake is again approx 18 players

 

not sure if this is any use or just pointless i have a save from the week before the intake if needed

 

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4 hours ago, Andrew James said:

Quick update on this: the issue with number of number of newgens in ai youth intakes is still under review and we're working hard to get it fixed. In most cases these numbers won't drop below what's expected until 10+ years into save (custom dbs and some nations are affected earlier unfortunately), and future improvements for this will be save game compatible when they're ready. 

To clarify, the youth intake process is different for ai clubs and human managed clubs. Whilst a human club may receive 10+ youth candidates in an intake, it's likely that the user wouldn't be recommended to sign all of them, and this number is not what should be expected from ai clubs, where the same trialist process doesn't take place. 

The info provided in this thread has been very useful in helping us try to get to the bottom of these issues, and your ongoing patience as we try to get them all resolved is still greatly appreciated. 

Thanks. Is the expectation that youth squads should be filled with newgens only (in playable leagues at least) rather than 5 to 10 newgens in a youth squad and about 10 virtual?

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10 hours ago, Andrew James said:

Quick update on this: the issue with number of number of newgens in ai youth intakes is still under review and we're working hard to get it improved. In most cases these numbers won't drop below what's expected until 10+ years into save (custom dbs and some nations are affected earlier unfortunately), and future improvements for this will be save game compatible when they're ready. 

To clarify, the youth intake process is different for ai clubs and human managed clubs. Whilst a human club may receive 10+ youth candidates in an intake, it's likely that the user wouldn't be recommended to sign all of them, and this number is not what should be expected from ai clubs, where the same trialist process doesn't take place. 

The info provided in this thread has been very useful in helping us try to get to the bottom of these issues, and your ongoing patience as we try to get them all resolved is still greatly appreciated. 

Thank you Andrew, this is the information we where hoping for, and a really different acknowledgement of the situation from SI. 

More input on the subject: Premier League (playable) youth intake first 3 seasons in, as Francis added ~50% of premier league youth teams consisting of "grey" players.

Screen Shot 2021-01-25 at 10.53.04.png

Screen Shot 2021-01-25 at 10.53.12.png

 

 

Edited by lucade
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5 hours ago, Andrew James said:

Quick update on this: the issue with number of number of newgens in ai youth intakes is still under review and we're working hard to get it improved. In most cases these numbers won't drop below what's expected until 10+ years into save (custom dbs and some nations are affected earlier unfortunately), and future improvements for this will be save game compatible when they're ready. 

To clarify, the youth intake process is different for ai clubs and human managed clubs. Whilst a human club may receive 10+ youth candidates in an intake, it's likely that the user wouldn't be recommended to sign all of them, and this number is not what should be expected from ai clubs, where the same trialist process doesn't take place. 

The info provided in this thread has been very useful in helping us try to get to the bottom of these issues, and your ongoing patience as we try to get them all resolved is still greatly appreciated. 

thank you andrew. is it going to be a patch before january transfer window update ?  and is this problem a priority for u in the next patch ?

 

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@Andrew James

Does that include playable leagues as well? In my Christchurch FC save using a (Tier 10 lower league) I am 3 seasons into the save and other English clubs have gone from having 6 players coming in on youth intake in 2021 to only have 2/3 players coming through in 2022/2023. 

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1 hour ago, priority76 said:

@lucade What is the last picture meant to indicate?

Thank you for pointing it out, it was wrong.

I'm simulating further that save in case is useful for more insights as time advances.

Edited by lucade
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3 hours ago, PJ Bluenose 4 Ever said:

Hi all, 

I'm really confused and concerned about this and how will affect my game. 

I have recently started a tier 7 save with Stourbridge using the FM editor's tier 10 database, do you think it would be wise for me to stop this game? 

Absolutely.

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4 hours ago, PJ Bluenose 4 Ever said:

Hi all, 

I'm really confused and concerned about this and how will affect my game. 

I have recently started a tier 7 save with Stourbridge using the FM editor's tier 10 database, do you think it would be wise for me to stop this game? 

Why would you stop your save!?!  They have said any changes will be save game compatible.  Are you enjoying playing FM? Would you have had any idea this problem existed if you hadn't discovered this thread?

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Yeah definitely loving my game and don't want to stop playing it haha.

Its just my concern (although perhaps I'm over thinking it) is that the further in to the game I get the fewer regens will be created therefore this will have a massive impact on the game as a whole and my ability to sign regens. 

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11 minutes ago, PJ Bluenose 4 Ever said:

Yeah definitely loving my game and don't want to stop playing it haha.

Well there you go then!  Yes the number of players in your game will decrease.  It varies how much in league to league, some lose a lot, a few seem to gain some.  There's a good experiment on page seven of this thread which shows FM21 has better player retention than FM20 (eventually),  worth checking out if you didn't see it.

So you can keep playing and the problem either will be fixed or not fixed or partially fixed in the next patch, or stop playing because the game's not perfect.  Although if you're using the FM editor's tier 10 database, there's a far more annoying problem to do with the fixtures in the Vanarama leagues, which is far more likely to make me stop playing.  But that's probably a topic for a different thread.

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hace 41 minutos, priority76 dijo:

Although if you're using the FM editor's tier 10 database, there's a far more annoying problem to do with the fixtures in the Vanarama leagues, which is far more likely to make me stop playing.  But that's probably a topic for a different thread.

What is the problem with the Vanarama fixtures? Could you at least point me to a post explaining it? I'm playing in the Vanarama National

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1 hour ago, TokyoWanderer said:

What is the problem with the Vanarama fixtures? Could you at least point me to a post explaining it? I'm playing in the Vanarama National

I think he means only if you are using the Tier 10 database.

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I just noticed that I'm also seeing this issue (the tiny youth intakes for AI managed clubs), in the Premier League, in 2028.

I have the largest youth team in England with 25 players, most of the rest of the clubs have only 9 or 10 real players, with some clubs lower down the leagues already fully grey at youth level. There looks to be early signs of the same problem in Spain, but Germany seems largely unaffected (all three of Spain, Germany, and England are loaded, along with a bunch of other leagues I've not checked).

Looking through the past youth intakes on the nation page, things were fine through to 2024. In 2025 there were some early warning signs, about half the clubs in the PL dropped to getting around 5-7 players rather than a healthy 9 or 10. In 2026 and every season since, all the PL teams have been getting 5, 6, or 7 players, and a number of the other teams in lower leagues have been getting only 2 or 3 players. Many of the U23 teams in England are small and made up of mostly 17/18 year olds at this point, especially in teams that have been having particularly bad numbers.

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On 25/01/2021 at 10:52, Andrew James said:

Quick update on this: the issue with number of number of newgens in ai youth intakes is still under review and we're working hard to get it improved. In most cases these numbers won't drop below what's expected until 10+ years into save (custom dbs and some nations are affected earlier unfortunately), and future improvements for this will be save game compatible when they're ready. 

To clarify, the youth intake process is different for ai clubs and human managed clubs. Whilst a human club may receive 10+ youth candidates in an intake, it's likely that the user wouldn't be recommended to sign all of them, and this number is not what should be expected from ai clubs, where the same trialist process doesn't take place. 

The info provided in this thread has been very useful in helping us try to get to the bottom of these issues, and your ongoing patience as we try to get them all resolved is still greatly appreciated. 

Hi Andrew, is there any further news on this?

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21 hours ago, benhoward12 said:

Hi Andrew, is there any further news on this?

At this point you just wait for the usual last patch in March somewhere. They say they want to hotfix it as soon as possible, but I kinda doubt that by now. A bit of a shame that a great game is filled by small bugs (the stats are stil broken since release...) like this. 

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This bug is gamebreaking for longer/journeyman saves. As seen in this thread, this bug has been a problem for multiple years, I assume it will be addressed in the March update- if they do address it. Youth intake is crucial to this game so I can’t imagine them ignoring it, plus look at the view count on this thread. It has 20x the views as the other threads on this specific forum.

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2 hours ago, michael21 said:

This bug is gamebreaking for longer/journeyman saves. As seen in this thread, this bug has been a problem for multiple years, I assume it will be addressed in the March update- if they do address it. Youth intake is crucial to this game so I can’t imagine them ignoring it, plus look at the view count on this thread. It has 20x the views as the other threads on this specific forum.

We can only hope. Addressing this bug would be a MASSIVE update for the game.

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8af2b6f728d794412c6e2490009a76b9.png

Sweden u19s at June 2024, 12 out of 19 players generated in the UK. This is very unrealistic, seems to only happen to Sweden which is weird. 

Edited by LeoFM
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1 hour ago, LeoFM said:

Sweden u19s at June 2024, 12 out of 19 players generated in the UK. This is very unrealistic, seems to only happen to Sweden which is weird.

Do you have the Swedish league loaded? In my game all Swedish under 19s play in Sweden except for the odd one out who plays for a Mexican lower league team.

Capture.PNG.7241d060f9f79fcdc1673779eda09ac1.PNG

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I stated earlier in the thread but I thought I'd restate for importance, custom teams are not generating players remotely inline with their club's and nation's youth rating, recruitment rating, etc. Teams created with 20s across the board and 10000 rep. generate newgens at an avg. 90 PA, and very few over 120 PA. And that is on top of the reduced numbers in newgens, as stated in this thread.

Any idea of a timeline for addressing the overall youth intake issues discussed in this thread? Long term and custom league/team saves are a core component of the game. @Andrew James

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On 08/02/2021 at 11:55, Novem9 said:

@Andrew James I didn't make a newgens research in this year, but just for a sence - too many left footed CB.

I'm in 2030 year and roughly speaking, ~75% of central backs I signed was left footed.

I did think there was an unusual amount of left footed centre back new gens in my game 

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On 13/02/2021 at 23:46, michael21 said:

I stated earlier in the thread but I thought I'd restate for importance, custom teams are not generating players remotely inline with their club's and nation's youth rating, recruitment rating, etc. Teams created with 20s across the board and 10000 rep. generate newgens at an avg. 90 PA, and very few over 120 PA. And that is on top of the reduced numbers in newgens, as stated in this thread.

Any idea of a timeline for addressing the overall youth intake issues discussed in this thread? Long term and custom league/team saves are a core component of the game. @Andrew James

We have to wait for the transfer windows to close in China And Russia before SI releases the Update which hopefully fixes this issue.

 

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To confirm, this is still under review with our dev team. We are working on ways to increase the minimum amount of players per Youth Intake for AI clubs. All changes will be save compatible when they're ready. 

Obviously this thread has had a lot of comments, could I ask that any issues that aren't specifically related to the number of players in Youth Intakes are raised in new, separate threads in the relevant subsection. This makes it much easier for us to make sure nothing slips the net and to track progress with fixes etc. 

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29 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

To confirm, this is still under review with our dev team. We are working on ways to increase the minimum amount of players per Youth Intake for AI clubs. All changes will be save compatible when they're ready. 

Obviously this thread has had a lot of comments, could I ask that any issues that aren't specifically related to the number of players in Youth Intakes are raised in new, separate threads in the relevant subsection. This makes it much easier for us to make sure nothing slips the net and to track progress with fixes etc. 

Thanks for the update Andrew

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So..... there's an update for this issue finally

I think it'd be nice if the mods here could explain like what does the developer expect with this improvement. Like are you still working with other updates because this still is not perfect or is it okay now to play with advanced custom database

Any insights would be very helpful

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Is the decreasing of the number of players in an Advanced Custom database is because, you know, the youth intake system is broken when you choose to play with custom db or because the fact the inactive league basically generates less players than playable leagues (like it is intended as well with regular database) so the inactive league is struggling to replace the player you loaded in the start of the game?

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31 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

The latest update 21.3.0 contains fixes aimed at improving Youth Intake numbers for both active and inactive leagues, as well as maintaining the long term total player count in saves. All changes are save game compatible.

We have introduced a stricter "minimum value" for the amount of players per intake. This means that top flight clubs should receive at least 8 players in every intake, with lower division clubs receiving slightly less - in most cases this should always be at least 4+. 

These minimum values are now met regardless of the total player count in game, so even if the total player count hasn't decreased since game start, the number of players being generated will not decrease below a certain point. This means that it is now possible (and in many save game setups likely) that the player count will now gradually increase rather than decrease, especially in the first 10 years of a save, after which it will start to flatten out again. 

I believe there are still some nations where a decrease may be possible - in Argentina for example where the squad sizes at game start are unsustainably huge - but there should now be a much healthier number of newgens generating across all active leagues than before. 

Hopefully these changes will mean that u18 squads are less dependant on virtual (greyed out) players to make up the numbers, but to clarify, the presence of virtual players does not mean a club is not producing enough newgens. 

We have also increased the number of newgens per intake for clubs in inactive leagues, but unfortunately the custom db setups where loads of players have been loaded into inactive leagues are still most likely to experience a drop in player count. It should be less severe than before this update, but my advice for long term saves would probably still be to add nations as playable if you want every club there to generate a youth intake every season and maintain the overall player count. 

If you have any questions then let me know. If you spot any bugs regarding youth intakes, then at this point it's best to start a new thread rather than post it here as this one is getting a bit congested.

Thanks again for your patience and all the information posted regarding these issues, they've been incredibly helpful in helping us try to get them resolved. 

Thanks Andrew, those minimum values for number of regens is great news! As you say, having some grey virtual players can be ok as long as teams aren't dependant on them.

Thanks for the advice on custom dbs too, I dont use a custom db but Im sure many others will find it helpful.

One question, when you mention inactive leagues are you referring to leagues that are loaded View Only AND leagues that arent loaded?

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20 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

One question, when you mention inactive leagues are you referring to leagues that are loaded View Only AND leagues that arent loaded?

Yes, inactive leagues are any leagues that appear in game that have not been added as playable, which includes view-only leagues. View Only leagues are inactive leagues that simulate all the matches and rulegroups for that competition, but does not add any extra players from those leagues to the starting db. This means that if you use custom db setups to add extra players to a View-Only league, then you may as well just load it as Playable, as it won't slow your game down at all but will add a lot more structure and stability to the nation. 

 

46 minutes ago, Captain Krakatoa said:

Is the decreasing of the number of players in an Advanced Custom database is because, you know, the youth intake system is broken when you choose to play with custom db or because the fact the inactive league basically generates less players than playable leagues (like it is intended as well with regular database) so the inactive league is struggling to replace the player you loaded in the start of the game?

Inactive Leagues are indeed designed to function without the need to be fully stocked with players - but in cases where additional players are loaded there, they would still ideally be able to retain their player count. The issues regarding custom dbs are down to the fact that these extra players are based in inactive leagues - where we have a lot less to work with in order to try to boost and balance the numbers. 

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10 hours ago, Andrew James said:

The latest update 21.3.0 contains fixes aimed at improving Youth Intake numbers for both active and inactive leagues, as well as maintaining the long term total player count in saves. All changes are save game compatible.

We have introduced a stricter "minimum value" for the amount of players per intake. This means that top flight clubs should receive at least 8 players in every intake, with lower division clubs receiving slightly less - in most cases this should always be at least 4+. 

These minimum values are now met regardless of the total player count in game, so even if the total player count hasn't decreased since game start, the number of players being generated will not decrease below a certain point. This means that it is now possible (and in many save game setups likely) that the player count will now gradually increase rather than decrease, especially in the first 10 years of a save, after which it will start to flatten out again. 

I believe there are still some nations where a decrease may be possible - in Argentina for example where the squad sizes at game start are unsustainably huge - but there should now be a much healthier number of newgens generating across all active leagues than before. 

Hopefully these changes will mean that u18 squads are less dependant on virtual (greyed out) players to make up the numbers, but to clarify, the presence of virtual players does not mean a club is not producing enough newgens. 

We have also increased the number of newgens per intake for clubs in inactive leagues, but unfortunately the custom db setups where loads of players have been loaded into inactive leagues are still most likely to experience a drop in player count. It should be less severe than before this update, but my advice for long term saves would probably still be to add nations as playable if you want every club there to generate a youth intake every season and maintain the overall player count. 

If you have any questions then let me know. If you spot any bugs regarding youth intakes, then at this point it's best to start a new thread rather than post it here as this one is getting a bit congested.

Thanks again for your patience and all the information posted regarding these issues, they've been incredibly helpful in helping us try to get them resolved. 

Holy moly this is great news! Thankyou for providing a bit of "deeper" info on the changes and behind the scenes stuff. Sorry if i was a ever a little too rambunxious in this thread, its weird buying Fm and not playing it for half the game cycle and i was frustrated.

Finally time to start playing or should i wait for some of the simulating boys to throw some numbers up?

Thankyou guys so much for the update ive been checking steamdb every morning watching the updates and the build ID going up and i can tell there is ALOT of work in this patch, godspeed lads!

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9 hours ago, Andrew James said:

Yes, inactive leagues are any leagues that appear in game that have not been added as playable, which includes view-only leagues. View Only leagues are inactive leagues that simulate all the matches and rulegroups for that competition, but does not add any extra players from those leagues to the starting db. This means that if you use custom db setups to add extra players to a View-Only league, then you may as well just load it as Playable, as it won't slow your game down at all but will add a lot more structure and stability to the nation. 

 

Inactive Leagues are indeed designed to function without the need to be fully stocked with players - but in cases where additional players are loaded there, they would still ideally be able to retain their player count. The issues regarding custom dbs are down to the fact that these extra players are based in inactive leagues - where we have a lot less to work with in order to try to boost and balance the numbers. 

Tell me if i got this correct? If i have a custom fmf for New Zealand and set them as playable these minimum newgen values will be applied? Is the "8 newgen per team in top league" thing based on reputation or hardcoded in default leagues?

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11 hours ago, Andrew James said:

The issues regarding custom dbs are down to the fact that these extra players are based in inactive leagues - where we have a lot less to work with in order to try to boost and balance the numbers. 

Yep so it's just about the inactive leagues are struggling to keep the number up right? It's not messing the whole Youth Intake system, is it?

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13 hours ago, Andrew James said:

Yes, inactive leagues are any leagues that appear in game that have not been added as playable, which includes view-only leagues. View Only leagues are inactive leagues that simulate all the matches and rulegroups for that competition, but does not add any extra players from those leagues to the starting db. This means that if you use custom db setups to add extra players to a View-Only league, then you may as well just load it as Playable, as it won't slow your game down at all but will add a lot more structure and stability to the nation. 

Is that really true? Having Europe on view-only but with all players from those leagues loaded, is the same speed as having all league in Europe as playable? 

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2 hours ago, Captain Krakatoa said:

Yep so it's just about the inactive leagues are struggling to keep the number up right? It's not messing the whole Youth Intake system, is it?

He described the youth intake process for the active leagues in his first message yesterday. Gives a good overview if how it works and it's much improved, probably better than any other version of the game for active leagues

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2 hours ago, Captain Krakatoa said:

Yep so it's just about the inactive leagues are struggling to keep the number up right? It's not messing the whole Youth Intake system, is it?

Correct. And inactive leagues should only struggle when they have extra players loaded at game start using advanced db settings. 

 

1 hour ago, Da Beezer said:

Is that really true? Having Europe on view-only but with all players from those leagues loaded, is the same speed as having all league in Europe as playable? 

Not quite the same, but the biggest factor in game processing speed is the player count, and view-only leagues are also already running all the competition's rulegroups. So adding a league as playable in this situation would add extra functionality and stability for clubs there (more Youth Intakes, transfers, staff hiring etc) without adding to the player count or rulegroups - it would probably be a tad slower as a result but worth doing in my opinion :)

Also worth mentioning that you can reduce Match Detail levels in certain leagues to try and speed your game up too.  

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I ran a test for 10 years with the advanced database option with players from all top divisions loaded (about 90k players at the start of the game) and only one league set as playable.  After 10 seasons, the player pool had been reduced to 74k. 

Here is the comparison regarding the total number of youth players coming through intakes before and after the update. 

Year	21.2	21.3

2020	3349	4445	
2021	7982	6760
2022	4559	5167
2023	3677	2902
2024	2440	2621
2025	2205	2550
2026	2085	2758
2027	2281	2847
2028	2276	2914
2029	2240	2837

Total	33094	35801
Average	3309	3580

After 5 seasons when the numbers seem to become more balanced, it's clear to see that the 21.3 update is an improvement, with about 600 more players each year than before the update. Still not good enough though considering the massive reduction of about 16k players in the database after only 10 years, but an improvement for sure.

Edited by LeoFM
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2 hours ago, LeoFM said:

I ran a test for 10 years with the advanced database option with players from all top divisions loaded (about 90k players at the start of the game) and only one league set as playable.  After 10 seasons, the player pool had been reduced to 74k. 

Here is the comparison regarding the total number of youth players coming through intakes before and after the update. 


Year	21.2	21.3

2020	3349	4445	
2021	7982	6760
2022	4559	5167
2023	3677	2902
2024	2440	2621
2025	2205	2550
2026	2085	2758
2027	2281	2847
2028	2276	2914
2029	2240	2837

Total	33094	35801
Average	3309	3580

After 5 seasons when the numbers seem to become more balanced, it's clear to see that the 21.3 update is an improvement, with about 600 more players each year than before the update. Still not good enough though considering the massive reduction of about 16k players in the database after only 10 years, but an improvement for sure.

But based on everything you've seen why would it be any better, they've fixed the low intakes for active leagues, if you only have 1 league active then surely you'd expect to see a massive drop off, if anything its great there are 600 extra as thats the real number

 

would be interesting to see a comparison with 5 active leagues up

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46 minutes ago, Jops14 said:

But based on everything you've seen why would it be any better, they've fixed the low intakes for active leagues, if you only have 1 league active then surely you'd expect to see a massive drop off, if anything its great there are 600 extra as thats the real number

 

would be interesting to see a comparison with 5 active leagues up

Yeh a bit of a thicker test would be great 

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2 hours ago, Jops14 said:

But based on everything you've seen why would it be any better, they've fixed the low intakes for active leagues, if you only have 1 league active then surely you'd expect to see a massive drop off, if anything its great there are 600 extra as thats the real number

 

would be interesting to see a comparison with 5 active leagues up

No Andrew  said they also made some improve to custom db options, so LeoFM checked this. There is nothing wrong with that.

Of course we know the main improvement is to active leagues and then secondly inactive leagues

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Would there be any way to make a strict national minimum, maybe only if you're on a large database, for the bigger inactive African countries that tend to be on the low side? Wouldn't have to be high at all, just like 3-5 per year per country spread across the bigger clubs would be fine. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Ghana, Nigeria, Ivory Coast etc. There might not be a big advantage to having a ton of players coming out of those countries, but you do notice years and years of zeroes.

Edited by Ruh Roh
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Just now, Ruh Roh said:

Would there be any way to make a strict national minimum, maybe only if you're on a large database, for the bigger inactive African countries that tend to be on the low side? Wouldn't have to be high at all, just like 3-5 per year per country spread across the bigger clubs would be fine. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Ghana, Nigeria, Ivory Coast etc. There might not be a big advantage to having a ton of players coming out of those countries, but you do notice years and years of zeroes.

Yeh i think they need to add an option to game creation for people with decent PCs to have a hard set minimum to player generation. 

Like i dont mind if my player count goes up 1000 every year if i know the right players are being created.

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