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Youth Intake Broken Just Like Beta


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vor 2 Minuten schrieb calvg:

Do you know if the European nations lost players were spread evenly across or affected nations disproportionately? 

Yes, see my post down below

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Daveincid:

 

I simulated the test until 09.08.24 without the advanced db:

17.08.24 (191k players)

England: 1250/6828

Spain: 847/8661

Switzerland: 390/2425

China: 654/3031

Iran: League NA/185

USA: 735/4494

Which continents are loosing the most players?

17.08.20 (204k)

Africa: 4041

Asia: 19458

Europe: 137070

North America: 10092

Oceania: 3265

South America: 30238

17.08.24 (191k)

Africa: 3684 (-9%)

Asia: 16302 (-17%)

Europe: 133838 (-3%)

North America: 9904 (-2%)

Oceania: 3210 (-2%)

South America: 24190 (-21%)

Conclusion:

The problem really seems to be heavily in South America and Asia, but also Africa had quite a big loss. I am especially worried about Nations where IRL they have a good league but isn't in the default game. Iran is one example, but it affects all leagues. My experience was, that the  "big hit" will be arround season 26/27. No matter what db you choose, there is a constantly loss of players. So for longterm-saves (only my personal opinion) the game isn't playable without closing both eyes at it's current state.

 

Cheers

Daveincid 

 

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1 hour ago, priority76 said:

I'm still a bit sceptical about how much this would actually effect the game.  Having AI youth teams with some greyed players doesn't seem like a massive issue to me and if I hadn't stumbled across this thread I really doubt I would ever know this problem exists.  Mind you I rarely get beyond five years in a save.  Maybe I'm missing something fundamental about this problem.  Although now that I know about it I really hope it gets sorted ASAP.

I might try and find one of those saves where someone has gone 500 years into the future and see what things are looking like.  The number of players disappearing has to level out at some point.

If you dont go beyond five years I can positively say that the drop in youth players wont be the problem for you. I am saying this from my experience ofcourse, when I get to 5 years. It also depends on how much into details you go after all. But if u play mostly to 5 years, you can play it easy :) Ofcourse bug is quite huge after all, but as mentioned, if u play more short saves, the bug is very bearable.

If you ever find someone who has gone so many years in future, could you give me a message ? Really interested what happens after so many years :)

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21 minutes ago, blejdek said:

If you ever find someone who has gone so many years in future, could you give me a message ? Really interested what happens after so many years :)

I found a save that's gone 100 years into the future.  I've only had a very quick look at it and it doesn't seem great.  The save has England, Scotland, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal all leagues loaded except Italy and Portugal, with a small database.  There are only 25k players whereas on startup there would be about 36k, if no advanced database was used.  There doesn't seem to be any regens spawning in countries other than those loaded at all.  There are only 19 players in South America and they all moved there from Europe.  It looks like this game was played in the beta though so that might be why no regens in other countries.  I'll go forward a year and see if any appear.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Sharkn20:

To be Frank the less players the quicker the SIM will go, anyways there are plenty of young prospects that never make it to professionals, so few greyed players don't seem like a deal breaker to me.

I don't know if you mean youth intake from premier league clubs or other top tier teams. A one-star-potencial player from ManUdt will still be a pro for some league-one or two-club. The ones which won't make it to professionals are the ones you don't see ingame, because they won't get a youth contract at newgens intake date. 

The database you choose should be +/- the same in the future in terms of the size. And this is simply not the case for all setups. 

 

The deal breaker will be after 5 seasons, where even first team squads sometimes have grey players in some top-tier-divisions. 

Edited by Daveincid
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I'm finding myself getting really confused with some of the changing terminology in here. With custom db and advanced db.

Just to clarify in my mind.
An advanced db option - is selction load all players from X nation etc
A custom db is a database edited/created on the editor.

I am currently running a custom db (more teams added into the inactive ''feeder'' division on the english non-league pyramid, so there's a bigger pool of teams to get promoted into the game), with a standard medium db. All leagues set to playable. Is this issue still affecting this kind of game?  Or is it just saves with advanced db options set up?
 

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Domoboy23:

I'm finding myself getting really confused with some of the changing terminology in here. With custom db and advanced db.

Just to clarify in my mind.
An advanced db option - is selction load all players from X nation etc
A custom db is a database edited/created on the editor.

I am currently running a custom db (more teams added into the inactive ''feeder'' division on the english non-league pyramid, so there's a bigger pool of teams to get promoted into the game), with a standard medium db. All leagues set to playable. Is this issue still affecting this kind of game?  Or is it just saves with advanced db options set up?
 

it affects all kind of saves, playable the least, followed by small/medium/big db, worst for unloaded/view-only leagues with added players via the advanced db-setup.

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3 hours ago, priority76 said:

There doesn't seem to be any regens spawning in countries other than those loaded at all.

Having gone forward a couple of years, regens are spawning in all leagues that you can play as in the game, though none from leagues unplayable without a custom db.  South America now has 141 players which is nice to see.  I guess this is something that changed from the beta to the full release.  The number of players seems stable at 25k maybe increased a few hundred.  I don't see much wrong with playable leagues apart from youth teams with hardly any real players.  I haven't seen any main squads with greyed out players even in the lowest tiers.  One thing I'll be making use of is the add/remove leagues option, when you remove a league it seems to retain the vast majority of players.  I imagine if you add and remove a couple each season it will give you a much better spread of players.

Edited by priority76
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11 hours ago, Wilsjay27 said:

Anyone else having the issue of when adding in playable leagues to a current save it doesnt actually add the league in when it gets to the date it says. Thought i would try to get round this regen issue a little bit by adding in a load of playable leagues but nothing actually happens, if i try and add that league again after that date it just shows as being added again in another years time.

Also i started with a couple of view only leagues, i selected to change them to playable and it gives me a date in the future when it will change to playable. But when i come off the game and load my save back up next time i play it, its gone back to view only and doesnt show it as playable in the future. 

same for me @wildjay27

you have to persist year on year by adding them and then crossing your fingers.

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1 hour ago, freddieos said:

Anyone else having the issue of when adding in playable leagues to a current save it doesnt actually add the league in when it gets to the date it says.

Haven't seen this at all.  What if you save it from before the date and keep trying?

 

9 minutes ago, majesticeternity said:

Has anyone tried what happens when you add players via an fmf vs advanced db?

What do you mean via an fmf?

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hace 39 minutos, Sir_Liam dijo:

Argentina is a good place to start as the number of players based there has shrunk from 9544 to 6087, a fall of 36%.  Argentine clubs though seem to start with a lot of players, i.e. River Plate have 95, Boca Juniors have 119, Racing have 115, San Lorenzo 102, and Independiente 91.  Clearly over time the AI managers reduce these numbers significantly, i.e. Boca have 53 players in 2028, which includes 16 in their reserve squad and 14 in their Under 20s.  River also have 53, and have a similar distribution of players across their 3 squads.  FM doesn't appear to replicate how the big Argentine clubs operate in real life in terms of player numbers, but I still feel that the reduction in numbers doesn't affect the game negatively for me.  This drop in Argentina is probably a key driver in the reduction in numbers people are seeing in South America.  Brazil has a similar pattern, although not as drastic, and I haven't checked the details.

 

Top job Liam! 

The problem with Argentina is that researchers cram the players of four, five, or even six different youth squads to the U-23 and U-18 squads that appear in the game, which doesn't make much sense honestly. To replicate the Argentina youth system, FM would have to give each club a reserve team plus SIX youth teams, divided by age. 

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb Gee_Simpson:

So really the patch has mostly fixed things, i.e. It's fine to start a long term save?

If you read through pages you will notice that it depends on your setup. It seems there is a setup like the one from @Sir_Liam that works, but a lot off different ones are struggling

Edited by Daveincid
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9 часов назад, Sir_Liam сказал:

Since I discovered this bug I've run 3 tests with the same setup for 50 years.  One in FM2020, one in FM2021 before the 21.2 update, and one after the 21.2 update.  The setup is England loaded all the way down to National North/South, and a large database.  There's no advanced options selected, and no database editing had taken place.

The numbers are as follows:

FM2020 / FM2021 before 21.2 / FM2021 after 21.2:

Start: 17167 / 17286 / 17287

10 Years: 17724 / 12995 / 16530

20 Years: 16277 / 9048 / 15602

30 Years: 15208 / 7708 / 14879

40 Years: 14248 / 7603 / 15053

50 Years: 13779 / 7438 / 14929

Based entirely on this setup 21.2 is a vast improvement on the previous patch, and actually ends up having over 1000 players more in the database after 50 years than FM2020.  I actually also ran the before 21.2 save file for 27 more years after the 21.2 patch, and the numbers recovered in that time to 15191, so the patch is save game compatible in that it replenishes the "lost" players, although it took it nearly 20 years to get back to around 15000, where it remained, albeit with some fluctuation.

A graph showing the pattern of these 3 games over 50 years is below.  All 3 had a rise in the first 2/3 years before starting to fall.  FM2020 carried on falling very slowly and never seemed to hit a level of players it remained around.  Both versions of FM2021 did do that though with the pre-21.2 game generally hovering between 7400 and 7600 players from year 30, and post-21.2 hovering between 14900 and 15100 from year 25.

image.png.9276aa033e379645eebcd3ece92145d9.png

In addition to this I am running tests on my actual save game which has an edited database in terms of leagues I've added, although there's no advanced database options selected prior to the game (unusual for me, but perhaps a good decision judging by comments in here).  There has been a fall in players overall in the first 8 years from 122948 to 111630.  I'm actually feeling that I'm happy with it though when I break down the numbers.

Argentina is a good place to start as the number of players based there has shrunk from 9544 to 6087, a fall of 36%.  Argentine clubs though seem to start with a lot of players, i.e. River Plate have 95, Boca Juniors have 119, Racing have 115, San Lorenzo 102, and Independiente 91.  Clearly over time the AI managers reduce these numbers significantly, i.e. Boca have 53 players in 2028, which includes 16 in their reserve squad and 14 in their Under 20s.  River also have 53, and have a similar distribution of players across their 3 squads.  FM doesn't appear to replicate how the big Argentine clubs operate in real life in terms of player numbers, but I still feel that the reduction in numbers doesn't affect the game negatively for me.  This drop in Argentina is probably a key driver in the reduction in numbers people are seeing in South America.  Brazil has a similar pattern, although not as drastic, and I haven't checked the details.

Some countries have maintained a similar number, i.e. Sweden which started on 7200 and has 7194 after 8 years, with little fluctuation.  Others have seen a rise such as Hong Kong, an admittedly small league, but one which has had a 20% rise in players based in nation, going from 572 to 685.  A few of the leagues I've created have also seen a rise when they haven't had many players in the database to begin with.

I kind of see that as the game balancing itself out over time, taking players away from clubs who started with too many (even if it is realistic), and giving more to clubs who don't have enough.  Is it entirely realistic?  No.  In my opinion though it doesn't make the game unplayable, although I won't argue with anyone who disagrees.

The final number is the amount of players based in non-playable countries.  That was 13146 at the start, and is 12845 in 2028.  That number initially rose and has fallen steadily since, so is one to look out for, and perhaps the biggest concern for me.  My 50 year test suggested non playable teams carried on generating players OK, although I don't have a breakdown of figures and didn't look in detail.

So I'm edging towards feeling it's OK for me, and I'll hopefully carry on playing my save game again soon.  For me the comparison in numbers to FM2020 showed that the numbers reduced over time then, but it happened so slowly that no one noticed.  Clearly prior to 21.2 this was a major bug.  Since then, it may actually be quite similar to FM2020, although I have only compared the one setup.

Amazing research!!!

This is not really cool that grey line go down so dashingly, but this is funny and optimistic that in extra long time it looks more perspective

It exist a period in FM 'world' just have no enough young players with appropriate skill, a shortage. It happened in 7-12 seasons as I remember when real players are finishing own career, but newgens are young.

So in your research this period of time even worse in FM21 so it could be critical in some cases 

 

  

11 минут назад, Daveincid сказал:

Recommended changes: bald, non-smoking, sweat-shirt:thup: Face-expression seems about right:D 

oh wait... The Wire :D  

Спойлер

So what did Herc do that was good? : TheWire

 

Edited by Novem9
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11 hours ago, Sir_Liam said:

Argentine clubs though seem to start with a lot of players

This might explain a quirk I've found.  If you add Argentina as a playable league after starting your game it adds almost 40k players to your game whereas other leagues are more in the region on 5k.

Also can you give us some numbers from the leagues you added which are not in the vanilla game?

Edited by priority76
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11 hours ago, TokyoWanderer said:

Top job Liam! 

The problem with Argentina is that researchers cram the players of four, five, or even six different youth squads to the U-23 and U-18 squads that appear in the game, which doesn't make much sense honestly. To replicate the Argentina youth system, FM would have to give each club a reserve team plus SIX youth teams, divided by age. 

Thanks for the information, as that explains that the real life setup clashes with how FM is setup, affecting numbers.

6 hours ago, Daveincid said:

If you read through pages you will notice that it depends on your setup. It seems there is a setup like the one from @Sir_Liam that works, but a lot off different ones are struggling

I agree with this.  Each league has its own characteristics related to starting numbers, the numbers FM deems to be ideal, reserve & youth structure, league structure, and even changes to league structure (i.e. Spain).  It's quite possible that loading only Hong Kong will actually see an increase in players over time, whilst loading only Argentina will see a sharp decrease.  These figures will mostly be driven by a reduction in domestic based players though.  Advanced setups, which I've not tested, seem to be different though.

1 hour ago, priority76 said:

This might explain a quirk I've found.  If you add Argentina as a playable league after starting your game it adds almost 40k players to your game whereas other leagues are more in the region on 5k.

Also can you give us some numbers from the leagues you added which are not in the vanilla game?

Yes, no problem.  Bosnia & Herzegovina has gone from 2608 to 2521, and has stayed consistently around those figures.  Egypt has gone from 2204 to 2764, Faroe Islands from 1106 to 1078, Mauritania from 627 to 765, New Zealand from 1422 to 1318, Nigeria from 2528 to 3256, Saudi Arabia from 3271 to 2660 (I'm not quite sure why this has dropped as starting numbers are between 30-40 on all of the dozen or so clubs I've just checked), & Somalia from 367 to 665.

I'm actually managing in Somalia, so the large increase there makes sense as there's not many real players in the database, and most of my squad are newgens created at the start of the game.  A lot have actually stayed at a similar level, suggesting FM's happy with the numbers there, and some other smaller ones have seen an increase, where the database is likely to be light on players at the start.

Nigeria has a lot of players looking at the figures too, but the 2nd tier has 44 teams, so is probably short on players in some squads at the start.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Sir_Liam:

Thanks for the information, as that explains that the real life setup clashes with how FM is setup, affecting numbers.

I agree with this.  Each league has its own characteristics related to starting numbers, the numbers FM deems to be ideal, reserve & youth structure, league structure, and even changes to league structure (i.e. Spain).  It's quite possible that loading only Hong Kong will actually see an increase in players over time, whilst loading only Argentina will see a sharp decrease.  These figures will mostly be driven by a reduction in domestic based players though.  Advanced setups, which I've not tested, seem to be different though.

Yes, no problem.  Bosnia & Herzegovina has gone from 2608 to 2521, and has stayed consistently around those figures.  Egypt has gone from 2204 to 2764, Faroe Islands from 1106 to 1078, Mauritania from 627 to 765, New Zealand from 1422 to 1318, Nigeria from 2528 to 3256, Saudi Arabia from 3271 to 2660 (I'm not quite sure why this has dropped as starting numbers are between 30-40 on all of the dozen or so clubs I've just checked), & Somalia from 367 to 665.

I'm actually managing in Somalia, so the large increase there makes sense as there's not many real players in the database, and most of my squad are newgens created at the start of the game.  A lot have actually stayed at a similar level, suggesting FM's happy with the numbers there, and some other smaller ones have seen an increase, where the database is likely to be light on players at the start.

Nigeria has a lot of players looking at the figures too, but the 2nd tier has 44 teams, so is probably short on players in some squads at the start.

can you share your league setup? I really wanna run exactly the same test to see the behaviour. That would be great! 

Cheers

Daveincid

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6 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

can you share your league setup? I really wanna run exactly the same test to see the behaviour. That would be great! 

Cheers

Daveincid

My setup has a lot of created leagues, so you can't create it from the vanilla game.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Sir_Liam:

My setup has a lot of created leagues, so you can't create it from the vanilla game.

doesn't matter, I have the megapack from timo, so all nations can be represented. It would be really helpful. Thanks!

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1 hour ago, Daveincid said:

doesn't matter, I have the megapack from timo, so all nations can be represented. It would be really helpful. Thanks!

Here it is:

image.png.066e27321035db75f4b865fe83707c73.png

image.png.cd0f135b33734a14461b8addcfa7f6b0.png

image.png.2d3eda27f462a57457f854ee233a0bbd.png

image.png.b65c6869142f8a08b03a0ae3d6ef5c67.png

As I have ticked add players to playable teams it does seem to add around 20k players at the start.

 

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The results in my long simulation are worrying. Actually, I'll do another one on Christmas because I'm not sure if these numbers are an one-off or not.

 

image_2020-12-23_145856.png

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vor 12 Minuten schrieb Bigpole:

The results in my long simulation are worrying. Actually, I'll do another one on Christmas because I'm not sure if these numbers are an one-off or not.

 

image_2020-12-23_145856.png

as expected:applause:

Thank you for your effort!

Unloaded leagues like algeria and egypt is a bummer

Edited by Daveincid
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40 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Thanks again for all the info and data posted on this.

It's likely that a lot of these issues were actually present in FM20, but something in FM21 has made them far more extreme in certain cases. We think it's possible it may be due to an increase in the number of dual and multi nationality newgens that generate in the game this year, which is having a knock-on effect to the player count for each nation.

As has been established, different nations and different db setups all seem to be affected in different ways, so I want to assure you that we're trying to find a way to balance everything out across the board. 

There are essentially 2 main issues that are under review with our dev team at the moment, although I highly suspect they are fundamentally linked.

1) Total player count decreases over time - custom db setups with players loaded into inactive leagues are most (but not exclusively) affected by this, as well as some specific regions such as South America, Asia and Africa. 

2) AI clubs not generating enough newgens per Youth Intake - this can affect playable leagues too, and total player count may still be stable, but the most severe cases seem to start happening 10+ years into saves. 

Further improvements should all be save game compatible too, as the game stores the player count numbers it should be aiming for at game start, something is just preventing it reaching them at the moment. If these numbers need to be recalculated or boosted, that can also be done within a save game.

Great! Thanks for the update, Andrew.

 

Can we expect a patch before 21.3? or shall we wait until march for a fix?

Thanks again.

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4 hours ago, Daveincid said:

as expected:applause:

Thank you for your effort!

Unloaded leagues like algeria and egypt is a bummer

Wanna have a laugh? Only England is loaded.

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1 hour ago, Andrew James said:

I'm hopeful once we get a fix it's something that could be included in a minor update, but there are too many factors in play to make any promises or put a time frame on that unfortunately.

I'll try to keep you all updated with any developments on this front. 

Thank you!

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Fascinating thread and impressive work by everyone testing/researching...TY!

So this basically breaks the realism of international team managing, right? Especially journeyman type saves.
Some nations will not have a big enough player pool to be competitive. Am I reading it right?

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1 hour ago, gizmo11x said:

Fascinating thread and impressive work by everyone testing/researching...TY!

So this basically breaks the realism of international team managing, right? Especially journeyman type saves.
Some nations will not have a big enough player pool to be competitive. Am I reading it right?

Depends how many players are there to begin with.  Nations with too small a player pool will have 'fake' players who will have an ability relevant to that nation.  So they will still be relatively competitive.  Plus those nations will probably be smaller countries who weren't that good to begin with.

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hace 6 horas, ATV dijo:

Se ordenará cuando se lance FM22 :) 

I hope it is solved as soon as possible, I am discouraged to play with the game bugs. It would be nice if you comment on when you will have approximately the solution.

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8 hours ago, deivis10 said:

I hope it is solved as soon as possible, I am discouraged to play with the game bugs. It would be nice if you comment on when you will have approximately the solution.

Legit i got a 70 dollar lemon sitting in my steam list atm i have more time in the pregame editor ffs. I wish the refund policy wasnt so aids.

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3 hours ago, deivis10 said:

Any news about the bug? Did anyone notice improvement? When will they fix it?

Ive been watching steamdb and they are finally pushing some versions of the new patch for external testing or something arather which hasnt happened for 2 weeks so i would say we are closer than we were to a new patch.

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14 hours ago, ratio1618 said:

Ive been watching steamdb and they are finally pushing some versions of the new patch for external testing or something arather which hasnt happened for 2 weeks so i would say we are closer than we were to a new patch.

Can u tell me how do you see this ? Or can you write it in steps so I can see for myself? :) Pretty please

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