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Why are default DB English rules still a mess?


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Just now, lionel messi said:

I will be creating all the competitions and checking all the data is correct in the basic editor first before i start going in advanced rules and creating the 2 sets of rules.

Accomidating for the expansion next year as well? Lemme know if you need help, im awake when u are asleepo.

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Just now, lionel messi said:

yes i will try put that in too

I will continue tinkering with my "fantasy version"

Btw step 4s new league is Northern premier central
Step 5 has a UCL or CCL extra league? Thats about as much info we have on the exact geographical expansion so far.

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22 minutes ago, lionel messi said:

I have found it now, the northern premier league division 1 west did not have domestic division set.

Remember to change the names of the Northern Premier League Division Ones, they’re not East and West, they’re North & West and South & East.

Edited by FCUtdWill
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1 minute ago, FCUtdWill said:

Remember to change the names of the Northern Premier League Division Ones, they’re not East and West, they’re North & East and South & West.

They arent Betvictor anymore either are they?

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1 minute ago, lionel messi said:

Yes will do thanks for that.

They will probably change names for the expansion too i would assume, probably to east central and west. At regional first div level at least.

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Just now, FCUtdWill said:

No, as I said to you last night they’re all sponsored by Pitching In.

I should probably let TCM know then hahaha he still has Betvictor logos in his megapack.

EDIT yeh i just remembered now, Pitching in premier league just sounds really weird and i sort of glaze over it.

 

Edited by ratio1618
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1 minute ago, ratio1618 said:

They will probably change names for the expansion too i would assume, probably to east central and west. At regional first div level at least.

No one knows what’s going to happen next season, let’s finish this season first.

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1 minute ago, FCUtdWill said:

No one knows what’s going to happen next season, let’s finish this season first.

What can i say im a progressive thinker :D As far as im concerned this whole season is another write off + most people only spend what? Like 1 -2 days playing the 20/21 season TOPS most people are also starting in step 4 -5 and would never see the step 2 and 3 change from 20/21.

I already made an account on a Non league forum where im gong to try and find some answers/ get some help to distinguish next years new leagues. jJust lemme do ma thang

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28 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

What can i say im a progressive thinker :D As far as im concerned this whole season is another write off + most people only spend what? Like 1 -2 days playing the 20/21 season TOPS most people are also starting in step 4 -5 and would never see the step 2 and 3 change from 20/21.

I already made an account on a Non league forum where im gong to try and find some answers/ get some help to distinguish next years new leagues. jJust lemme do ma thang

I don’t agree the whole season is a write-off. It’s got a long way to go yet, the season has only just started. 

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I've read this thread with interest as a former co-lead of the EEE (England, Enhanced, Expanded) project from several iterations of FM many moons ago.

I don't speak for Gareth @magicmastermind124 but I think our view is that we're waiting on the NLS structure to stabilise again before we look into doing anything like EEE again.

I'm sure the usual suspects will try their best to allow the community to have a decent save at these lower levels in England but right now the editor and advanced rules in general are a bit of a minefield. 

Edited by jWaSiMhE
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I should also add that I have been personally trying to get more DB coverage for L9 and L10 done as an extension of my research responsibilities for SI.

As a few of you noticed, the L10 divisions have been created in the vanilla DB and things like stadiums and clubs in these leagues, histories are getting more accurate/filled in but there is still a long way to go.

Edited by jWaSiMhE
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7 hours ago, FCUtdWill said:

I’m fully aware of those spreadsheets and maps, I’ve been a member of the forum for a few years.

It wasnt for you it was for lionel messi.

 

 

7 hours ago, FCUtdWill said:

I don’t agree the whole season is a write-off. It’s got a long way to go yet, the season has only just started. 

I think it is a write off with the busted pyramid, incorrect numbers of teams, super play offs. 

Screw it, like i said most people spend about a days worth of gametime TOPS on the first season.

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1 hour ago, jWaSiMhE said:

I've read this thread with interest as a former co-lead of the EEE (England, Enhanced, Expanded) project from several iterations of FM many moons ago.

I don't speak for Gareth @magicmastermind124 but I think our view is that we're waiting on the NLS structure to stabilise again before we look into doing anything like EEE again.

I'm sure the usual suspects will try their best to allow the community to have a decent save at these lower levels in England but right now the editor and advanced rules in general are a bit of a minefield. 

I should also add that I have been personally trying to get more DB coverage for L9 and L10 done as an extension of my research responsibilities for SI.

As a few of you noticed, the L10 divisions have been created in the vanilla DB and things like stadiums and clubs in these leagues, histories are getting more accurate/filled in but there is still a long way to go.

Agreed both the real life rules and the editor are dodgy this year and the combination of those two factors make the entire process seem daunting ( i dunno if you have seen how SI have handled the ruleset for advanced England the last two years but its a proper birdsnest)

As for the usual suspect thing surprisingly there are more editors from last year that didn't know about the forum popping up as well as new people coming into the scene, already the person who i consider has made the most progress with England is a new face. Pretty good signs

Proper based that you are a researcher AND editor thankyou heaps for your work, i noticed this year there is TONNES more data fleshed out in the game EVEN in New Zealand, we have 3 regions, coordinates and everything. 
So you would be the person to confirm, Step 3 for example what is stopping SI from adding that as a default league? Is it liscensing?

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The reason SI haven't enabled step 3 and below is nothing to do with licencing. It's purely just a reflection of the availability for data and research at that level. SI struggle to get detailed research via ARs for all the National League clubs and they are very busy with the professional English data understandably. The player movements alone are far too fluid and everchanging also.

Saying that though it is actually quite good in places. Far better than where it was 8-10 years ago.

Edited by jWaSiMhE
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3 minutes ago, jWaSiMhE said:

The reason SI haven't enabled step 3 and below is nothing to do with licencing. It's purely just a reflection of the availability for data and research at that level. SI struggle to get detailed research via ARs for all the National League clubs and they are very busy with the professional English data understandably. The player movements alone are far too fluid and everchanging also.

Saying that though it is actually quite good in places. Far better than where it was 8-10 years ago.

Is it a case of needing researchers IN England? There is enough people here who have made level 10 English DBs for years who can probably dedicate the same time to watching a region or league even if they aren't physically anywhere near it and report data back to SI. I'd  be more than willing to dedicate my time to helping SI if it means we dont have to make level 8 -10 DBs every year haha

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25 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

So you would be the person to confirm, Step 3 for example what is stopping SI from adding that as a default league? Is it liscensing?

 

4 minutes ago, jWaSiMhE said:

The reason SI haven't enabled step 3 and below is nothing to do with licencing. It's purely just a reflection of the availability for data and research at that level. SI struggle to get detailed research via ARs for all the National League clubs and they are very busy with the professional English data understandably. The player movements alone are far too fluid and everchanging also.

Saying that though it is actually quite good in places. Far better than where it was 8-10 years ago.

This is why we've always argued when we were actively working on EEE for players of the game who liked EEE to get involved with the research.  Find out who the head or assistant researchers are.  Follow your local club(s) and ensure that the data can be found and added.  Obviously right now it probably wouldn't be possible for it to be well done.  But once we are out of a global pandemic it will be possible to go and watch Non-League games, find out who the players are, where they play on the pitch etc.

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7 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Is it a case of needing researchers IN England? There is enough people here who have made level 10 English DBs for years who can probably dedicate the same time to watching a region or league even if they aren't physically anywhere near it and report data back to SI. I'd  be more than willing to dedicate my time to helping SI if it means we dont have to make level 8 -10 DBs every year haha

I don't think it would be possible, the amount of time that goes into those releases (at least in our case) would mean that I'd be limited to one club, there's no way I could cover an entire league. Also being in Wales doesn't help!

Plus I'd like to see a lower league database in England that adds a lot of players.  I haven't been around for a while so maybe there is.  It's a lot of effort to add players with a fair amount of detail and attributes.  By this, I mean to say it would be a lot of research only for the players to then move around again.  How do you keep on top of it?  Having someone dedicated to a club, or a few clubs at most depending on your locality and time available is the way to go.  And direct that research to SI, rather than a download on the Editor.

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18 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Is it a case of needing researchers IN England? There is enough people here who have made level 10 English DBs for years who can probably dedicate the same time to watching a region or league even if they aren't physically anywhere near it and report data back to SI. I'd  be more than willing to dedicate my time to helping SI if it means we dont have to make level 8 -10 DBs every year haha

SI have always invited people to assist with research but the take-up has barely changed over the years, so there's some disconnect there. As above we would always encourage people to assist SI directly if one is this way inclined to make these kind of releases.

Unfortunately though it IS a different thing going to matches on a regular basis and just "watching" a league, region or even club. That's not even considering the league rules, additional resource time etc from SIs point of view I'd imagine.

It's probably not going to happen anytime soon (and I don't really think it is required as long as the pre game editor is in a decent state).

Edited by jWaSiMhE
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9 minutes ago, magicmastermind124 said:

 

This is why we've always argued when we were actively working on EEE for players of the game who liked EEE to get involved with the research.  Find out who the head or assistant researchers are.  Follow your local club(s) and ensure that the data can be found and added.  Obviously right now it probably wouldn't be possible for it to be well done.  But once we are out of a global pandemic it will be possible to go and watch Non-League games, find out who the players are, where they play on the pitch etc.

I  feel like this sub forum is great place to recruit Anglos into going and visintg the local side and pooling informationmaking a sub-sub forum for people to collate data for sending to SI, i dunno seems like a possiblity.

5 minutes ago, magicmastermind124 said:

I don't think it would be possible, the amount of time that goes into those releases (at least in our case) would mean that I'd be limited to one club, there's no way I could cover an entire league. Also being in Wales doesn't help!

Plus I'd like to see a lower league database in England that adds a lot of players.  I haven't been around for a while so maybe there is.  It's a lot of effort to add players with a fair amount of detail and attributes.  By this, I mean to say it would be a lot of research only for the players to then move around again.  How do you keep on top of it?  Having someone dedicated to a club, or a few clubs at most depending on your locality and time available is the way to go.  And direct that research to SI, rather than a download on the Editor.

Yeh being in New Zealand doesnt help either, i would 100% dedicate a tonne of time to researching down here if SI confirmed in advance they were finally ready to add a league to Oceania but thats up to them.

Yeh when you actually frame how bigger of a task it is you 100% would need 1.5 people on average per team to follow players and mark attribute etc. Pretty monumental, but who knows in a post COVID world enthusiasm might be super high.

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1 minute ago, jWaSiMhE said:

SI have always invited people to assist with research but the take-up has barely changed over the years, so there's some disconnect there. As above we would always encourage people to assist SI directly if one is this way inclined to make these kind of releases.

Unfortunately though it IS a different thing going to matches on a regular basis and just "watching" a league, region or even club. That's not even considering the league rules, additional resource time etc from SIs point of view I'd imagine.

It's probably not going to happen anytime soon (and I don't really think it is required as long as the pre game editor is in a decent state).

Well if this is the case they are doing a pretty bad job at publicizing  it, i had no idea that researches have been lacking.

Maybe thats why the PGE has been broken af for the last 2 years, they are trying to FORCE us to make a REAL lower league DB by singing up as Researchers, but like you said you would need to be in England. Unless you could make it a hybrid process.

Hell that non league forum could probably be pinged as well to help out if there was some incentive, they are super hardcore about it over there.

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Just now, matt-selbytownfc said:

@ratio1618

 

I have a file with all the official leagues to Level 10. It just needs the rules editing and verifying.

Would you like to comb over it and check to save you doing the same thing?

English Football Pyramind - Level 10.fmf 100.5 kB · 0 downloads

Ill have  gander dude thanks, is this current day structure 1 - 2 - 4 -7 - 14?

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5 minutes ago, matt-selbytownfc said:

I wasn't sure what you guys had all managed to do in regards to changing rules and such?

I seem to have hit my ceiling of knowledge on the matter by this point

@ratio1618

Dw bro im sorta in the same boat, you will never stop learning with this editor nonsense. We just need more experienced talented editors willing to lend a hand.

We need a editors Discord

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3 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Dw bro im sorta in the same boat, you will never stop learning with this editor nonsense. We just need more experienced talented editors willing to lend a hand.

We need a editors Discord

Yeah that'd be ideal! Can easily shift stuff around and bounce discussions off each other.

Many heads working at the same goal that sorta thing

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Just now, matt-selbytownfc said:

Yeah that'd be ideal! Can easily shift stuff around and bounce discussions off each other.

Many heads working at the same goal that sorta thing

Exactly ive talked to DanFM and he didnt mind the idea either, its just a case of making it and getting word out there.

I dont know if i should

a) Make it > tell people
b) gauge general interest > make it

Regardless i have been wanting to do this for a couple of years now.

The forum is great and all but its a bit clunky when you are actively combing over rulesets, having to reply to forum posts and stuff is not ideal. 

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1 minute ago, ratio1618 said:

Exactly ive talked to DanFM and he didnt mind the idea either, its just a case of making it and getting word out there.

I dont know if i should

a) Make it > tell people
b) gauge general interest > make it

Regardless i have been wanting to do this for a couple of years now.

The forum is great and all but its a bit clunky when you are actively combing over rulesets, having to reply to forum posts and stuff is not ideal. 

I would say make it, and then people join as and when.

You'll have a small base using it immediately anyway

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Just now, matt-selbytownfc said:

I would say make it, and then people join as and when.

You'll have a small base using it immediately anyway

Fuggit, may as well huh. Where would i promote it though, i dont wanna promote it on the current editors "discord" on the sortitoutsi discord cause i will probs get ban hammered

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6 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Fuggit, may as well huh. Where would i promote it though, i dont wanna promote it on the current editors "discord" on the sortitoutsi discord cause i will probs get ban hammered

Might be good to invite people and go word of mouth to start up?

Then just ask moderators on forums if you can promote it?

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3 minutes ago, matt-selbytownfc said:

Might be good to invite people and go word of mouth to start up?

Then just ask moderators on forums if you can promote it?

I'm pretty certain if you had a thread open in here with a release and advertised a Discord to promote research it would be absolutely fine.  I've done that before and it hasn't been an issue.

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3 minutes ago, magicmastermind124 said:

I'm pretty certain if you had a thread open in here with a release and advertised a Discord to promote research it would be absolutely fine.  I've done that before and it hasn't been an issue.

Good angle, Editing and Database research based Discord. Use it as a tool to start converting editors into researchers.

I will look into it today, i will need northern hemispherians to be mods though as my timezone is totally backwards to the rest of ya'll

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4 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Good angle, Editing and Database research based Discord. Use it as a tool to start converting editors into researchers.

I will look into it today, i will need northern hemispherians to be mods though as my timezone is totally backwards to the rest of ya'll

I'd be a mod if needed

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2 minutes ago, oche balboa said:

Just tried to make some changes to the Scotland Database and it gives me an error about The Vanarama National. Bizarre 

 

 

Potentially something to do with that stupid Tunnock wafer cup thing

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For the record id be interested in joining a discord for researching / editing.

 

My son ( I have a newborn) kicked right off last night so I didn't get a chance to mess about on the data base. Im trying to sort a few bits using BoyinGreen's files. 
One major issue seems to be the first league game being in October. Ive ran a SIM and everything goes fine, just seems really odd.

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58 minutes ago, NexusSix said:

For the record id be interested in joining a discord for researching / editing.

 

My son ( I have a newborn) kicked right off last night so I didn't get a chance to mess about on the data base. Im trying to sort a few bits using BoyinGreen's files. 
One major issue seems to be the first league game being in October. Ive ran a SIM and everything goes fine, just seems really odd.

The majority of leagues started in mid-September this year, the North West Counties League started on the 3rd October because of the pandemic.

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