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Why are default DB English rules still a mess?


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1 minute ago, Peter G said:

Tried that editor file but the leagues remain at 22 teams after the 1st year. Shame. 

I havent looked at the file yet but he may have circumvented the issue England had verifying by locking North and south down to 22 teams 

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3 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

I havent looked at the file yet but he may have circumvented the issue England had verifying by locking North and south down to 22 teams 

That's going to cause a problem then as there's 3 teams being relegated from Conference North and South but only 2 going up. So 1 less team each year?

 

Mmm, 6 teams coming up though. Confusing.

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Yeah, mines the same. So I think it's just reverted to what it was before the changes happen. Basically gotten rid of the real life changes and continue as it. Which is probably the best way of doing it.

There should be 6 teams up from the leagues below. 4 winners and 2 play-off winners.

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3 minutes ago, Peter G said:

That's going to cause a problem then as there's 3 teams being relegated from Conference North and South but only 2 going up. So 1 less team each year?

 

Mmm, 6 teams coming up though. Confusing.

Are you simming in game? 

From what i have discovered looking at the default advanced English rules the "3 team relagation" thing it states in basic editor is actually combining the 1 relegation spot in the South and the 2 in the North. This however should be fixed after the first season when both North and South increase to 24 teams.

Are you able to sim to 21/22 or 22/23 and see how many relegation spots there are/How many teams are in each league?

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1 minute ago, ratio1618 said:

Are you simming in game? 

From what i have discovered looking at the default advanced English rules the "3 team relagation" thing it states in basic editor is actually combining the 1 relegation spot in the South and the 2 in the North. This however should be fixed after the first season when both North and South increase to 24 teams.

Are you able to sim to 21/22 or 22/23 and see how many relegation spots there are/How many teams are in each league?

Yeah, simming to 22/23 season now. It will either change to the new one, or, stay as it is.

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2 minutes ago, NexusSix said:

image.png.fb31a6fe976509abaf883fe740c3e583.png

 

2020/21

and 21/22 

 

So where is that extra relegated team going.....

Thats fascinating actually is it the same in the North or South or whatever the other league is? is it still 3 teams relegated?|

If thats the case then the (fixed) 22 team advanced rule is what its using and not the dynamic version used in the base game which sort of throws my theory out the window

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Just now, NexusSix said:

image.png.d8bedf39ba2d2ceca417a455d7af1847.png

23/24

What is the other league doing? If it is anything like Real life it should be 24 teams each league and 4 relegation spots per league with 8 teams coming from tier 7 ( champions and play off winners)

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1 hour ago, ratio1618 said:

This is what im talking about there is no need for a rule set for a 21 team North because its not happening this year and the game isnt going to be able to create that out of thin air It should be a seperate ruleset for South and North for 20/21 and then both of them use the 24 team format from 21/22 onwards.

Also i hate how they are leaving rules in from last year they are 100% irrelevant Things like Boltons points deduction still being in the rules only makes  sense if they are using an entire set of rules for 2019 just to show Botlons points deduction in game which seem archaic.

Also i noticed that you didnt comment on the last set of rules, i can assume neither of us can figure out what it means. You should totally jump into advanced English rules with me and see what you can find to make sense of it all. If we can find the problem with verification in some stupid promotion/relegation miscalculation it might explain every other broken league.


Example: Here is the 21 team file which technically includes the North league despite it having 22 teams yet in the Prom/Rel section you can find the famous 3 team promotion, This makes sense if you are taking into consideration the exansion the South league needs 3 teams to be promoted to make 24 teams but the North only needs 2. Does this indicate that thte "Multiple competitions" part doesnt mean anything and really the 21 team file is purely for the South and they just include North in there for no reason whatsoever?

image.png.83d033fbce7944de5560d8b5fe9a726f.png
 

One of the reasons they have a 21 team North is because just in case 1 team got relegated from the Premier and 2 went into the South, it could easily have been 3-0 either way. It's just the way the relegated teams are in the country. They could have relegated four teams, so 2 north 2 south, but then the Premier would have been left with 23 teams (including Macclesfield) and there's a rule in their regulations that they have to have 24 teams in the Premier Division.

Bolton's point deduction is probably still in because it's used in the club history and is the only place to put it.

54 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Yeh i get that 100% and i do agree that it is slightly premature, this still doesnt excuse SIs birdsnest ruleset, club history should be stored in the DB not the rules anyway so i dunno if thats the case.

Im willing to play make believe and take what sources i have with information of the expansion and fill the gaps myself, it may not be 100% accurate but its far better than the currently scuffed non league system with its 1-2-4-7 set up ( good luck making rules for super playoffs and PPG stuff) I have seen that the new league at step 4 is going to be Central North so rejigging teams to fit wont be an issue, plus regional prom/rel has been worked on this year AFAIK and you are able to see why the game is moving teams to what division.

I really dont want to stick to this years rules, they are changing them for a reason hahaha

As above about Bolton, but they don't have anywhere to put it as it's a competition rule not a club rule.

I'm fully aware of what's happening in the non-league pyramid for next season and beyond, but I'm still waiting to hear it's definitely happening. I always focus on the current season before going onto the next.

Step 5 is moving to 16 divisions next year as well so you'll have to change those rules as well.

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North is identical 2 up 3 down   22 total all years

Van National is 2 up 4 down 24 teams all years

 

The lower tier teams start with around 15 teams then bounce up to 20 - 22 but i would imagine this is the game back filling, there are no leagues in 2023 with 24+ teams or less than 19

Odd. What is happening to that extra team?!

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1 minute ago, NexusSix said:

Explain this anyone? Its The English Southern League Prem Central

 

image.png.7c3155fd7a33af066073c1ca238741dd.pngimage.png.3d8bcb533c0bd65708924776a7c652fe.pngimage.png.3fd5516915ce196d374016731b5fcc8d.png

20/21     21/22    22/23

 

Why was there no playoff promotion 21/22? Or is it winner plays loser do you think?

I can only assume because it is trying to fill 6 spots at Tier 6 that its using some crude random system or PPG to figure out what league doesnt have a second team promoted. Its for this reason why the North and South are expanding to 24 teams so that exactly 2 teams from each of the 4 Tier 7 leagues get promoted without having that stud super playoff system.

Basically as long as there are 3 relegation spots each an uneven number of teams are coming up from each league.

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Now I am in a dilemma or whether to use that or not as it has deeper leagues, but not the real life changes that will take place. Or just stick with the games and hope the teams I want to come up, will come up.

Think sticking with the game is probably better. More realistic.

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You can probably see what team I roll with based on the highlighted one above!
I will make 6th tier and above playable and if its anything like FM20 I will steam roll up to the Van National and can happily forget about anything bellow! 

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@ratio1618 mate you are wasting your time I used to help a lot here along with several others all of which are long gone we had several conversations with SI on the forums the result....nothing changed 

there were several threads here where I and  others put up a lot of information to assist users they have all been taken down

It is pretty obvious that the editor is not a priority and thats their prerogative, but I am done with finding workarounds etc to cover basic errors in their product and I am not the only one who has tried via dialogue and was prepared to beta test the editor and work with SI to put out a product that we should have by now....the result is crank up this ..

Groundhog Day GIFs | Tenor

 

 

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2 minutes ago, FCUtdWill said:

One of the reasons they have a 21 team North is because just in case 1 team got relegated from the Premier and 2 went into the South, it could easily have been 3-0 either way. It's just the way the relegated teams are in the country. They could have relegated four teams, so 2 north 2 south, but then the Premier would have been left with 23 teams (including Macclesfield) and there's a rule in their regulations that they have to have 24 teams in the Premier Division.

Bolton's point deduction is probably still in because it's used in the club history and is the only place to put it.

As above about Bolton, but they don't have anywhere to put it as it's a competition rule not a club rule.

I'm fully aware of what's happening in the non-league pyramid for next season and beyond, but I'm still waiting to hear it's definitely happening. I always focus on the current season before going onto the next.

Step 5 is moving to 16 divisions next year as well so you'll have to change those rules as well.

Yeh step 5 looks like  CCL is added a new league leaving 1 extra league that is unknown. Based on this write up that has no sources.

https://www.footballinbracknell.co.uk/features/in-depth/32961/english-football-pyramid-system-works/

Adding/editing leagues to fit the new system is what im going to be doing accuracy is not important i will create the leagues i can find sources for and if i have to make up a couple more leagues at step 5 i will do that unitl i hear more concrete evidence of new leagues then i can change my files as needed.

My main issue here is that its almost impossible to add the leagues i want when Promotion/Relegation is broken between step 2 and 3, thats why im trying to decode all these rule sets to find the magic bullet to bring the expansion forward a year.

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Just now, ratio1618 said:

Yeh step 5 looks like  CCL is added a new league leaving 1 extra league that is unknown. Based on this write up that has no sources.

https://www.footballinbracknell.co.uk/features/in-depth/32961/english-football-pyramid-system-works/

Adding/editing leagues to fit the new system is what im going to be doing accuracy is not important i will create the leagues i can find sources for and if i have to make up a couple more leagues at step 5 i will do that unitl i hear more concrete evidence of new leagues then i can change my files as needed.

My main issue here is that its almost impossible to add the leagues i want when Promotion/Relegation is broken between step 2 and 3, thats why im trying to decode all these rule sets to find the magic bullet to bring the expansion forward a year.

I believe it's the United Counties League that are going to be operating the league, they're going to a North/South split.

There's a lot of changes that'll need to be done, I've said before and I'll say it again, focus on this season. You can only make the file in FM21 when they're announced and that'll be at the end of the season. There's no team lists anywhere for next season, there's only a couple of projection threads, but that's not official.

I've got a work around with Level 6 and Level 7 for this season, it doesn't change the South to 22 teams but it keeps it as it currently is.

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10 minutes ago, NexusSix said:

Right on, Corby lost 2-1 to Buxton.

So there is a playoff and you can see the results of them?

 

 

9 minutes ago, Peter G said:

Now I am in a dilemma or whether to use that or not as it has deeper leagues, but not the real life changes that will take place. Or just stick with the games and hope the teams I want to come up, will come up.

Think sticking with the game is probably better. More realistic.

Depends once i figure out the issues with the default english rules i will have a file that has a 100% accurate league structure with 75% accurately placed leagues geographically and that is purely because there isnt concrete evidence on where the new leagues will be, what you are playing on now is essentially the past 2 years North/South/Tier 7 and not what will be used for the forseeable future.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Roy Race 9 said:

@ratio1618 mate you are wasting your time I used to help a lot here along with several others all of which are long gone we had several conversations with SI on the forums the result....nothing changed 

there were several threads here where I and  others put up a lot of information to assist users they have all been taken down

It is pretty obvious that the editor is not a priority and thats their prerogative, but I am done with finding workarounds etc to cover basic errors in their product and I am not the only one who has tried via dialogue and was prepared to beta test the editor and work with SI to put out a product that we should have by now....the result is crank up this ..

Groundhog Day GIFs | Tenor

 

 

Yeh i feel you on that it seems hopeless but someone has to keep fighting, what you can krlenjushka etc have done is understandable but im not willing to give up until im jaded and blackpilled like you guys are.

Someone up in the SI offices is reading this thread right now and if they ignore all of us and the product then its just incredibly bad business for them and i wont be buying next years version which doesnt mean much. What should mean more is people like you guys who are old heads and intelligent people with the editor being ignored despite you literally making them thousands of dollars for free, that is just disgusting and something i would expect from EA not SI

If they truly didnt give a **** about the editor it seems weird that they HAVE been making improvements on various sections, clearly there is a team behind it somewhere whether its their main job or not SOMEONE is working on this thingso the silence is just odd.

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5 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

So there is a playoff and you can see the results of them?

 

 

Depends once i figure out the issues with the default english rules i will have a file that has a 100% accurate league structure with 75% accurately placed leagues geographically and that is purely because there isnt concrete evidence on where the new leagues will be, what you are playing on now is essentially the past 2 years North/South/Tier 7 and not what will be used for the forseeable future.

 

 

Yeh i feel you on that it seems hopeless but someone has to keep fighting, what you can krlenjushka etc have done is understandable but im not willing to give up until im jaded and blackpilled like you guys are.

Someone up in the SI offices is reading this thread right now and if they ignore all of us and the product then its just incredibly bad business for them and i wont be buying next years version which doesnt mean much. What should mean more is people like you guys who are old heads and intelligent people with the editor being ignored despite you literally making them thousands of dollars for free, that is just disgusting and something i would expect from EA not SI

If they truly didnt give a **** about the editor it seems weird that they HAVE been making improvements on various sections, clearly there is a team behind it somewhere whether its their main job or not SOMEONE is working on this thingso the silence is just odd.

Do you know how long that will taken to complete? Assuming it depends on the Editor issue being fixed by SI?

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9 minutes ago, FCUtdWill said:

I believe it's the United Counties League that are going to be operating the league, they're going to a North/South split.

There's a lot of changes that'll need to be done, I've said before and I'll say it again, focus on this season. You can only make the file in FM21 when they're announced and that'll be at the end of the season. There's no team lists anywhere for next season, there's only a couple of projection threads, but that's not official.

I've got a work around with Level 6 and Level 7 for this season, it doesn't change the South to 22 teams but it keeps it as it currently is.

Im not looking for official at the moment, im purely wanting to get the 1248 structure in place and i will make custom leagues and move teams around based on either unofficial info or what i see fit. It was never going to be 100% correct thanks to COVID But like the other guys in this thread are experiencing im sick of the super playoffs at step 3  and all the other nonsense that exists in the pyramid.

You focus on this season and i will try my best to bring next season forward :) <3

 

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2 minutes ago, Peter G said:

Do you know how long that will taken to complete? Assuming it depends on the Editor issue being fixed by SI?

Pretty much once i get the Promotion relegation issue fixed it wont take long at all, i might need some help from people who know English Geography better than me to place the new leagues ( i live in New Zealand) but thats it, its literally simpler to create the new system as it would be to create the old system with super playoffs

I am also lowkey waiting on some sort of response or update from SI in regards to the current problems but if i can find a workaround in the meantime i will.

Should i create a thread with my progress or just update what i find here? I have already made a pretty big discovery? Unless someone else has found it too.

Also are you able to share the file you are currently on i wanna see what he has done.

 

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Hi folks, I've managed to get level 7 working fully with realistic rules (so Vanarama N/S will have 24 teams next year), and the FA Cup and Trophy have been adjusted accordingly. I'll post it on the Download forum, and if anyone wants to use it as a base for their own edits, by all means feel free!

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Just now, BoyInGreen said:

Hi folks, I've managed to get level 7 working fully with realistic rules (so Vanarama N/S will have 24 teams next year), and the FA Cup and Trophy have been adjusted accordingly. I'll post it on the Download forum, and if anyone wants to use it as a base for their own edits, by all means feel free!

Hell yeh buddy nice job, I actually dont know where the FM21download forum is, can you link it here quickly?

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This is officially my first post on this site!

Hi folks, I'm the creator of the Hard Mode Youth Challenge with that Portland FC team. Sorry for this as its a long reply...

Ive actually never heard of this site and I've been playing fm since the championship days, only found this through a comment left on my steam workshop item. I made the challenge in a bit of a rush and never expected the editor would be this messy this year, I encountered bugs everywhere using it, nation rule issues and general league issues. I'm a Software engineer student and I've been making my own database changes and tweeks through the years and i think I have a fair grasp on how it works. I will give them credit this year as massive ease of use changes have been added to the editor. I can understand everyone's hate of it but it's actually a very powerful tool. 

I know of all these league issues and actually have a list of changes ready to be made, read through and comment me some additional things I might have missed. 

1) I intend firstly to add the correct team numbers to the leagues, easy fix but means we will need to forget about this covid 2020 year. There's a handy advance rule feature that allows you to take advantage of min max teams in leagues and that's how I got around this. 

2) yes the missing league in tier 10 will be added. I knew of this as theres officially 20 teams and I forced 19.

3) the correct teams will be added to the correct leagues and I have the correct lists already to do this. 

4)Theres a advance rule that allocates the promotion and relegation leagues and gives teams a set path to follow, I'm goi g to play with this and see if the location of teams gets altered. Ie North teams playing in South leagues. 

4.5) The teams are already geographical set out making our lives easier, these tie in with the set paths. 

5) the correct promotion and relegation numbers will get fixed, I noticed the playoff numbers too and wanna sort them out too. Was a rush job and wanted to play FM and this wacky save idea. 

I wanna flesh this out and put up a solid working model for folk but might take me all of tomar to resolve bugs. I will make this a Purley English tier 10 structure file and add my Portland add on separate. Hope some of you like the quick work around I came up with and was able to make your own databases. 

 

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9 minutes ago, sandbag g45 said:

This is officially my first post on this site!

Hi folks, I'm the creator of the Hard Mode Youth Challenge with that Portland FC team. Sorry for this as its a long reply...

Ive actually never heard of this site and I've been playing fm since the championship days, only found this through a comment left on my steam workshop item. I made the challenge in a bit of a rush and never expected the editor would be this messy this year, I encountered bugs everywhere using it, nation rule issues and general league issues. I'm a Software engineer student and I've been making my own database changes and tweeks through the years and i think I have a fair grasp on how it works. I will give them credit this year as massive ease of use changes have been added to the editor. I can understand everyone's hate of it but it's actually a very powerful tool. 

I know of all these league issues and actually have a list of changes ready to be made, read through and comment me some additional things I might have missed. 

1) I intend firstly to add the correct team numbers to the leagues, easy fix but means we will need to forget about this covid 2020 year. There's a handy advance rule feature that allows you to take advantage of min max teams in leagues and that's how I got around this. 

2) yes the missing league in tier 10 will be added. I knew of this as theres officially 20 teams and I forced 19.

3) the correct teams will be added to the correct leagues and I have the correct lists already to do this. 

4)Theres a advance rule that allocates the promotion and relegation leagues and gives teams a set path to follow, I'm goi g to play with this and see if the location of teams gets altered. Ie North teams playing in South leagues. 

4.5) The teams are already geographical set out making our lives easier, these tie in with the set paths. 

5) the correct promotion and relegation numbers will get fixed, I noticed the playoff numbers too and wanna sort them out too. Was a rush job and wanted to play FM and this wacky save idea. 

I wanna flesh this out and put up a solid working model for folk but might take me all of tomar to resolve bugs. I will make this a Purley English tier 10 structure file and add my Portland add on separate. Hope some of you like the quick work around I came up with and was able to make your own databases. 

 

Hey dude good to have you here we need more experienced editors to be active and vocal about stuff, i have yet to comb over your file as i am nose deep in my "Non league pyramid expansion file"

Did your workaround consist of just adjusting the min/max teams in the required teams section? I did similar but ran into the issue listed in my thread on the Editors hideaway where i hit an issue like "no rules found for league with 43 teams"



Did u hit the same snag? How did you get around it

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Last year in my Level 11 league file i had 2 sets of rules and it worked fine.

1 set of rules for 2019 and another set for 2020, i did this for each level from league 1 down to level 11.

League 1 reverted back to 24 teams after the end of the 1st season as well as some other alterations after the end of the 1st season.

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3 minutes ago, lionel messi said:

Last year in my Level 11 league file i had 2 sets of rules and it worked fine.

1 set of rules for 2019 and another set for 2020, i did this for each level from league 1 down to level 11.

League 1 reverted back to 24 teams after the end of the 1st season as well as some other alterations after the end of the 1st season.

There you are, been missing you big guy.

Im trying my hardest i really am but i cant get step 4 to run, it validates but doesnt actually run

Heres the file if you wanna point out where i went wrong.

League & Data Updates.fmf

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1 minute ago, ratio1618 said:

There you are, been missing you big guy.

Im trying my hardest i really am but i cant get step 4 to run, it validates but doesnt actually run

Heres the file if you wanna point out where i went wrong.

League & Data Updates.fmf 42.13 kB · 0 downloads

I dont actually have fm21 yet but when i do i will have a look at trying to get the thing working properly, it looks more of a mess this year with team numbers inbalanced from Levels 5 to 8 for the 1st season.

I think i could do it with 2 sets of rules again like last year but it would take alot of sorting out.

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16 minutes ago, lionel messi said:

I dont actually have fm21 yet but when i do i will have a look at trying to get the thing working properly, it looks more of a mess this year with team numbers inbalanced from Levels 5 to 8 for the 1st season.

I think i could do it with 2 sets of rules again like last year but it would take alot of sorting out.

YUeh tis a ngihtmare, its uneven numbers on top of a nearly unsable editor at times. Its a actual proper nightmare 10x worse than last year.

Im thinking of just ditching this year entirely, filling all the missing spots in the VNL VNN and VNS and bringing the perfect pyramid expansion forward to the 20/21 season just to avoid all the dumb **** with the leagues this year. I highly doubt anyone will notice/miss the 1st year being inaccurate and it will save alot of blood sweat and tears.

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6 hours ago, ratio1618 said:

Hey dude good to have you here we need more experienced editors to be active and vocal about stuff, i have yet to comb over your file as i am nose deep in my "Non league pyramid expansion file"

Did your workaround consist of just adjusting the min/max teams in the required teams section? I did similar but ran into the issue listed in my thread on the Editors hideaway where i hit an issue like "no rules found for league with 43 teams"



Did u hit the same snag? How did you get around it

I did and so will anyone adding leagues below tier 6 with the editor in its current state.. In my work around in advance rules you can easily adjust the Min/Max of clubs in leagues. This is what i done in mine.  Go into your advance rules, in the drop down go to england as you are editing that nation, go to required teams as the db wont run without these leagues and then in required leagues scroll down, here you can adjust the Min / Max amount of teams allowed to run your db. I personally took a screen shot of my rule errors, made it easier for bulk. This is why for anyone wondering why teams weren't dropping below 22 teams in my editor its because its set here. I recommend everyone playing around with he editor, its an amazing tool.

 

fm1.PNG

fm2.PNG

fm3.PNG

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4 hours ago, ratio1618 said:

YUeh tis a ngihtmare, its uneven numbers on top of a nearly unsable editor at times. Its a actual proper nightmare 10x worse than last year.

Im thinking of just ditching this year entirely, filling all the missing spots in the VNL VNN and VNS and bringing the perfect pyramid expansion forward to the 20/21 season just to avoid all the dumb **** with the leagues this year. I highly doubt anyone will notice/miss the 1st year being inaccurate and it will save alot of blood sweat and tears.

I have now got FM21 & the editor.

1st thing i notice is that one of the leagues is missing from regional 1st divisions, there should be 7 divisions but there is only 6 divisions in the editor.

I notice that all the Level 10 divisions are in the editor.

I will be going through all the Leagues to check the correct teams are in the correct divisions.

Then i will be adding the pyramid down to Level 10.

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2 minutes ago, lionel messi said:

I have now got FM21 & the editor.

1st thing i notice is that one of the leagues is missing from regional 1st divisions, there should be 7 divisions but there is only 6 divisions in the editor.

I notice that all the Level 10 divisions are in the editor.

I will be going through all the Leagues to check the correct teams are in the correct divisions.

Then i will be adding the pyramid down to Level 10.

Are you sure? I only had to add 1 league to step 4 to make it 8.

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2 minutes ago, krlenjushka said:

Have you guys solved your problem with level 7? I tried to keep up with your posts last night but no luck - i was tired :)

Yeh the bro @BoyInGreen made up a file with 7 working using 20/21 ruleset and also a 21/22 expansion, its a case of changing the min/max required teams and setting some leagues to flexible? I think?

Atm im trying to basically bring the 21/22 pyramid forward to game start date and add teams to the missing spots in the Vanarama national north and south and add the 8th league at tier 8

 

3 minutes ago, lionel messi said:

I have found it now, the northern premier league division 1 west did not have domestic division set.

Wtf thats weird?

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1 minute ago, ratio1618 said:

Yeh the bro @BoyInGreen made up a file with 7 working using 20/21 ruleset and also a 21/22 expansion, its a case of changing the min/max required teams and setting some leagues to flexible? I think?

Atm im trying to basically bring the 21/22 pyramid forward to game start date and add teams to the missing spots in the Vanarama national north and south and add the 8th league at tier 8

 

Wtf thats weird?

I will be creating all the competitions and checking all the data is correct in the basic editor first before i start going in advanced rules and creating the 2 sets of rules.

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