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Why are default DB English rules still a mess?


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11 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

They dont have the license, They should probably spend an hour fixing the damn editor first. Also we should vote with our wallets and not buy the game until we know the editor has actually had time spent on it. 3 years of this BS and they dont even talk to us outside of locked stickies.

 

it's not licencing issue, last year and year before you could activate the leagues straight away (there was few things that was taken away from basic rules and moved to advanced). This year the problem is everywhere.

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4 minutes ago, FCUtdWill said:

Other countries have the same issue when custom leagues are added, it’s not just England.

I’m unsure if it’s to do with the license when they’re already in the editor. I’ve managed to fix the editor issues tonight, I just can’t get them to load on game start.

That is true however the names they use for step 3 and 4 are the basic regional names, its not a sponsored thing. I believe if they were to make the leagues playable they would have to get permission and also pay for people to scout it.

All they have to do is clean up the english advanced rules and streamline it all into the two variation of teams and prom/rel spots as well as getting rid of all the 2019 data they copy pasted over to clean the files up and make it easier to edit in new leagues. 

For example open England in advanced and check the two sets of rules they have for league 1 and 2 which technically are superfluous due to the fact that Bury is long gone and the game starts in a year where the league numbers have been corrected.

There is no need for 2019 based rulesets in the current DB and the only reason they are there is becuase SI were lazy and just dragged the rules across in its entirety, 

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1 hour ago, ratio1618 said:

There is no need for 2019 based rulesets in the current DB and the only reason they are there is becuase SI were lazy and just dragged the rules across in its entirety, 

except it's probably worth keeping around as a "just in case" another team goes bust (ohey Macclesfield), so they can quickly adjust the league without taking ages to put out an update (the layout is already there, just copy it across)

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2 minutes ago, samdiatmh said:

except it's probably worth keeping around as a "just in case" another team goes bust (ohey Macclesfield), so they can quickly adjust the league without taking ages to put out an update (the layout is already there, just copy it across)

Why cant they keep it on an internal DB? Why shitup an already convoluted ruleset just for futureproofing.

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8 hours ago, ratio1618 said:

That is true however the names they use for step 3 and 4 are the basic regional names, its not a sponsored thing. I believe if they were to make the leagues playable they would have to get permission and also pay for people to scout it.

All they have to do is clean up the english advanced rules and streamline it all into the two variation of teams and prom/rel spots as well as getting rid of all the 2019 data they copy pasted over to clean the files up and make it easier to edit in new leagues. 

For example open England in advanced and check the two sets of rules they have for league 1 and 2 which technically are superfluous due to the fact that Bury is long gone and the game starts in a year where the league numbers have been corrected.

There is no need for 2019 based rulesets in the current DB and the only reason they are there is becuase SI were lazy and just dragged the rules across in its entirety, 

The leagues they name at Step 3 and 4 aren’t basic regional names, those are the actual names of the leagues! They’ve always made them available since the competition editor came out about 10 years ago!

I’ve not gone into the advanced rules as I don’t use them and have managed to verify my files no problem. Yes they need a bit of work but the problem is getting the game to recognise the file.

The last couple of seasons have seen changes to the pyramid structure, by 2021-22 hopefully things are back to how they were in terms of numbers of clubs in divisions.

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Someone (not me!) has managed to get down to Tier 10 sorted and verified. Its up on Steam workshop under the name "Hard Youth Challenge"
Im running a 5 year Sim now, will report back.

Edited by NexusSix
Corrected 10 - 5 typo
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16 minutes ago, NexusSix said:

Someone (not me!) has managed to get down to Tier 10 sorted and verified. Its up on Steam workshop under the name "Hard Youth Challenge"
Im running a 10 year Sim now, will report back.

Will be interested to see if this works. Hopefully includes Step 7 and 8 correctly.

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2 hours ago, NexusSix said:

Someone (not me!) has managed to get down to Tier 10 sorted and verified. Its up on Steam workshop under the name "Hard Youth Challenge"
Im running a 5 year Sim now, will report back.

One division at Level 10 is missing, one of the divisions has 12 teams compared to 16 in real life.

I think they've just enabled all the divisions and teams that are already there, Level 10 isn't complete on the editor.

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33 minutes ago, FCUtdWill said:

One division at Level 10 is missing, one of the divisions has 12 teams compared to 16 in real life.

I think they've just enabled all the divisions and teams that are already there, Level 10 isn't complete on the editor.

 

Do step 7 and 8 look correct?

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11 hours ago, FCUtdWill said:

The leagues they name at Step 3 and 4 aren’t basic regional names, those are the actual names of the leagues! They’ve always made them available since the competition editor came out about 10 years ago!

I’ve not gone into the advanced rules as I don’t use them and have managed to verify my files no problem. Yes they need a bit of work but the problem is getting the game to recognise the file.

The last couple of seasons have seen changes to the pyramid structure, by 2021-22 hopefully things are back to how they were in terms of numbers of clubs in divisions.

Haha yeh i know they are the name of the league itself buit it would be akin to naming the step 1 and 2 the Conference north and south when really its Vanarama. I know that the NPL is called the "Pitching in league" + Isnt Isthmain the anme of the actual region?

My main point was that its not a researched and integrated playable league in FM. 

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29 minutes ago, Peter G said:

 

Do step 7 and 8 look correct?

I've not touched them on my file and they look to be all correct, so I'm assuming the author of the file will have kept them the same.

7 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Haha yeh i know they are the name of the league itself buit it would be akin to naming the step 1 and 2 the Conference north and south when really its Vanarama. I know that the NPL is called the "Pitching in league" + Isnt Isthmain the anme of the actual region?

My main point was that its not a researched and integrated playable league in FM. 

Steps 1 and 2 are the National League, Vanarama is a sponsor. All three divisions at Levels 7 and 8 are known as the Pitching In Leagues. The Isthmian League was named after the Isthmian Games, it's not a region.

I've seen threads for years on this forum with Level 7 and 8 data issues where people have posted updates which gets added to the game. All Level 7 and 8 leagues have been in the game since the launch of the competition editor and that was in FM10.

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5 minutes ago, FCUtdWill said:

I've not touched them on my file and they look to be all correct, so I'm assuming the author of the file will have kept them the same.

Steps 1 and 2 are the National League, Vanarama is a sponsor. All three divisions at Levels 7 and 8 are known as the Pitching In Leagues. The Isthmian League was named after the Isthmian Games, it's not a region.

I've seen threads for years on this forum with Level 7 and 8 data issues where people have posted updates which gets added to the game. All Level 7 and 8 leagues have been in the game since the launch of the competition editor and that was in FM10.

Hahha isnt that what i just said? Regardless i think we both get the point.

My biggest issue with that is that if they are keeping steps 3 and 4 up to date in the DB they havent expanded step 4  to 8 leagues. AFAIK there is a new NPL Central Div 1 which is being includedl, They have accommodated for the expansion sort of in step 2 with relegation spots.

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13 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Hahha isnt that what i just said? Regardless i think we both get the point.

My biggest issue with that is that if they are keeping steps 3 and 4 up to date in the DB they havent expanded step 4  to 8 leagues. AFAIK there is a new NPL Central Div 1 which is being includedl, They have accommodated for the expansion sort of in step 2 with relegation spots.

The reason they haven't made Step 4 have 8 divisions is because Football Manager 2021 is for the 2020-21 season and that's what the rules are for this season. It was meant to happen this season but due to Covid it was put back a season. That's when there'll be 8 Step 4 leagues. There's also going to be two extra Step 5 divisions next season, they're not in the game for the same reason.

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6 minutes ago, Peter G said:

Noticed in that download as well that they've given Portland? pro status and money. So you'll need to edit that back.

It's part of the challenge managing Portland FC, there's a Portland United in the Wessex League Premier but they're not related.

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image.png.a9d155529d4001f42a6d332bada06d75.png

 

Was step 3 always in the basic ruleset for England? I just downloaded the new update and checked the DB. Going to comb over advanced now, relegation spots are still greyed out at 3 spots

 

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3 minutes ago, FCUtdWill said:

It's part of the challenge managing Portland FC, there's a Portland United in the Wessex League Premier but they're not related.

Is there a way to edit the file in the Editor to change them? Can't seem to find the file after subscribing

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3 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

image.png.a9d155529d4001f42a6d332bada06d75.png

 

Was step 3 always in the basic ruleset for England? I just downloaded the new update and checked the DB. Going to comb over advanced now, relegation spots are still greyed out at 3 spots

 

Yes I believe so but as an inactive division, you have to make them active to use them.

1 minute ago, Peter G said:

Is there a way to edit the file in the Editor to change them? Can't seem to find the file after subscribing

When you've subscribed, the file should appear in your editor data folder. I think you might have to select it to run in the game but not actually start the game and then it'll show up.

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Just now, FCUtdWill said:

Yes I believe so but as an inactive division, you have to make them active to use them.

When you've subscribed, the file should appear in your editor data folder. I think you might have to select it to run in the game but not actually start the game and then it'll show up.

Its either in editor data or in the steamworkshop download folder, cant remember where that was exactly but sometimes it shoves it in this numbered folder.

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image.png.80ceea15d1768e2f852f052ed23c203e.png

What would be cool is if we were able to figure out exactly what each of these rulessets for Vanarama North and South are for. 2 of them clearly set up the fixtures for what i guess is the first season.

Then there are rules for (((IF)))) the league goes to either 21 22 or 24 teams with the (fixed) 22 team ruleset being the one the game uses at start date.

"Multiple competitions" i figured out the other day means that the rules combine both North and South which clears up a decent amount of confusion i had, you can change something in the North version of "multiple competitions" and it should translate over too the South version.

image.png.4dd16e2b22de01ec265bf022e6a7e6a3.png

Another interesting thing i need to poke around with is this screen. I need to figure out how to access that folder (i believe i need to relearn resource extractor)
Also one can only assume "version" is the iteration of the rules file Higher =  rules it changes too after the first season?


Seeing as SI have not elaborated on what any of these things mean for over 2 years now surely we can all put our heads together and decode the birds nest that is SIs advanced rules.

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6 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

image.png.80ceea15d1768e2f852f052ed23c203e.png

What would be cool is if we were able to figure out exactly what each of these rulessets for Vanarama North and South are for. 2 of them clearly set up the fixtures for what i guess is the first season.

Then there are rules for (((IF)))) the league goes to either 21 22 or 24 teams with the (fixed) 22 team ruleset being the one the game uses at start date.

"Multiple competitions" i figured out the other day means that the rules combine both North and South which clears up a decent amount of confusion i had, you can change something in the North version of "multiple competitions" and it should translate over too the South version.

image.png.4dd16e2b22de01ec265bf022e6a7e6a3.png

Another interesting thing i need to poke around with is this screen. I need to figure out how to access that folder (i believe i need to relearn resource extractor)
Also one can only assume "version" is the iteration of the rules file Higher =  rules it changes too after the first season?


Seeing as SI have not elaborated on what any of these things mean for over 2 years now surely we can all put our heads together and decode the birds nest that is SIs advanced rules.

The 21 and 22 teams relate to this season, the 24 teams relates to next season when they increase to 24.

For changing multiple competitions, you edit the parent competition and the child competitions should follow, when you're editing a child competition you overwrite what's in the parent competition. It works that way in the basic rules too.

I don't know where that file is the resource archiver, there's an England xml file in there though.

I think it's purely a version number, like now we're on v21.1 of FM21, last year was v20.4, next year will be v22.0 etc.

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1 minute ago, FCUtdWill said:

The 21 and 22 teams relate to this season, the 24 teams relates to next season when they increase to 24.

For changing multiple competitions, you edit the parent competition and the child competitions should follow, when you're editing a child competition you overwrite what's in the parent competition. It works that way in the basic rules too.

I don't know where that file is the resource archiver, there's an England xml file in there though.

I think it's purely a version number, like now we're on v21.1 of FM21, last year was v20.4, next year will be v22.0 etc.

The thing i dont understand is that a 21 team South is this year only there is no 21 team north this year so why bundle both rules into the same set?

Whats the purpose of the (fixed) 22 teams as opposed to the normal version considering the league goes to 24 teams each in 21/22 and then on top of all that..... If 1 league is 21 teams and the other is 22 this year and we have 1 ruleset for 21 teams and 2 rulesets for 22 teams ALL of them covering the situation for the 20/21 season does that not seem like over complication of things? 

Really all  you would need is a ruleset for Souths 21 teams and a 22 team ruleset for North purely for the 20/21 season and then a third set of rules set to 24 teams for the rest of the game seeing as that is how its set up IRL, its just so poorly done.

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2 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

The thing i dont understand is that a 21 team South is this year only there is no 21 team north this year so why bundle both rules into the same set?

Whats the purpose of the (fixed) 22 teams as opposed to the normal version considering the league goes to 24 teams each in 21/22 and then on top of all that..... If 1 league is 21 teams and the other is 22 this year and we have 1 ruleset for 21 teams and 2 rulesets for 22 teams ALL of them covering the situation for the 20/21 season does that not seem like over complication of things? 

Really all  you would need is a ruleset for Souths 21 teams and a 22 team ruleset for North purely for the 20/21 season and then a third set of rules set to 24 teams for the rest of the game seeing as that is how its set up IRL, its just so poorly done.

As Bury folded during the 19-20 season, they relegated one team (rather than two) from League Two to the National League last season, and promoted two to make the EFL back up to 72 teams for this season. Steps 3-6 were declared null and void so teams in the relegation places for North/South didn't get relegated. The National League Premier relegated three teams rather than the usual four and promoted the usual four to maintain that division at 24 (before Macclesfield Town folded). The three teams who got relegated were AFC Fylde, Chorley (who went into the North division) and Ebbsfleet (who went into the South division). There were no teams promoted from any of the Level 7 divisions.

It's done like that because they're unsure what's going to happen next year, the whole of English football from Level 7 downwards has been suspended for a month due to the national lockdown. Let's get this season done before thinking about what happens next season and beyond. 

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5 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

image.png.4e250667dcace55a266920a6ecdd2933.png

So would this check out??

In order of your comments I'd say:

- That's correct.
- That's the parent competition of Level 6 in 2020-21 as it is now
- That's correct.
- That's correct.
- Think this might be for if the North had 21 teams as well.
- Think that's the current rules as it is now.
- Think that's for before 2020-21 with 22 teams.

I might be totally wrong on some of these, I don't use the advanced rules.

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So, I used that Hard Youth file and have taken out the Portland changes and the only changes are the lower leagues and some Danish team change. 

I tested it in the Editor to 2050 and it was fine.

Just loading in FM now. If that works I think I just need to check and change the league names. But they look okay?

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2 minutes ago, FCUtdWill said:

As Bury folded during the 19-20 season, they relegated one team (rather than two) from League Two to the National League last season, and promoted two to make the EFL back up to 72 teams for this season. Steps 3-6 were declared null and void so teams in the relegation places for North/South didn't get relegated. The National League Premier relegated three teams rather than the usual four and promoted the usual four to maintain that division at 24 (before Macclesfield Town folded). The three teams who got relegated were AFC Fylde, Chorley (who went into the North division) and Ebbsfleet (who went into the South division). There were no teams promoted from any of the Level 7 divisions.

It's done like that because they're unsure what's going to happen next year, the whole of English football from Level 7 downwards has been suspended for a month due to the national lockdown. Let's get this season done before thinking about what happens next season and beyond. 

Yeh nah i get how the leagues have shaken up, i just dont uderstand why they have laid the rules out like they have its not very digestible or editable when there is rules in there that dont even correlate with the current situation (a 22 team South for example)

Its already set in stone that the non league expansion is happening in 21/22 so it makes no sense to sit on your hands and leave the rules as messy as they are because they arent sure whats going to happen next year.

I dont care about this season due to the issues you laid out, my goal or England this year is to create the NEW non league system even if i have to move it forward to this year. Preferably i would be able to write the rules to expand naturally like its meant too.

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Just now, ratio1618 said:

Yeh nah i get how the leagues have shaken up, i just dont uderstand why they have laid the rules out like they have its not very digestible or editable when there is rules in there that dont even correlate with the current situation (a 22 team South for example)

Its already set in stone that the non league expansion is happening in 21/22 so it makes no sense to sit on your hands and leave the rules as messy as they are because they arent sure whats going to happen next year.

I dont care about this season due to the issues you laid out, my goal or England this year is to create the NEW non league system even if i have to move it forward to this year. Preferably i would be able to write the rules to expand naturally like its meant too.

I can't comment on their ways of laying the rules out as I don't know. Some of them may have to do with history of clubs and if they changed that it might cause problems.

I wouldn't say it's set in stone, Level 7 and 8 are going to be finishing at the end of May due to the national lockdown. Then they've got the allocations to sort out, once they've declared, they'll have to go through appeals because there'll be some clubs who will be unhappy where they've been placed. All this to happen before a potential start of the season in August. Wait until later on in the season to hear news.

You won't be able to move it forward a year because you don't know the clubs that are going to be in the divisions! What you're basically to do is try and reinvent the wheel for your car and your car hasn't been built yet.

I said this to someone on here last year, stick to this year's rules before going onto next year's and adapt to it. I for one am only focusing what's happening on this season. The time for me to focus on next season is when this season has finished, and I've been doing that for the last few years.

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5 minutes ago, FCUtdWill said:

In order of your comments I'd say:

- That's correct.
- That's the parent competition of Level 6 in 2020-21 as it is now
- That's correct.
- That's correct.
- Think this might be for if the North had 21 teams as well.
- Think that's the current rules as it is now.
- Think that's for before 2020-21 with 22 teams.

I might be totally wrong on some of these, I don't use the advanced rules.

This is what im talking about there is no need for a rule set for a 21 team North because its not happening this year and the game isnt going to be able to create that out of thin air It should be a seperate ruleset for South and North for 20/21 and then both of them use the 24 team format from 21/22 onwards.

Also i hate how they are leaving rules in from last year they are 100% irrelevant Things like Boltons points deduction still being in the rules only makes  sense if they are using an entire set of rules for 2019 just to show Botlons points deduction in game which seem archaic.

Also i noticed that you didnt comment on the last set of rules, i can assume neither of us can figure out what it means. You should totally jump into advanced English rules with me and see what you can find to make sense of it all. If we can find the problem with verification in some stupid promotion/relegation miscalculation it might explain every other broken league.


Example: Here is the 21 team file which technically includes the North league despite it having 22 teams yet in the Prom/Rel section you can find the famous 3 team promotion, This makes sense if you are taking into consideration the exansion the South league needs 3 teams to be promoted to make 24 teams but the North only needs 2. Does this indicate that thte "Multiple competitions" part doesnt mean anything and really the 21 team file is purely for the South and they just include North in there for no reason whatsoever?

image.png.83d033fbce7944de5560d8b5fe9a726f.png
 

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9 minutes ago, Peter G said:

So, I used that Hard Youth file and have taken out the Portland changes and the only changes are the lower leagues and some Danish team change. 

I tested it in the Editor to 2050 and it was fine.

Just loading in FM now. If that works I think I just need to check and change the league names.

 

6 minutes ago, Peter G said:

I'm just doing a holiday forward one year to see if the leagues change as expected. If they do, will upload here so you guys can have a look.

Just remember that some clubs are missing at Level 10. The file's nowhere near finished.

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3 minutes ago, FCUtdWill said:

I can't comment on their ways of laying the rules out as I don't know. Some of them may have to do with history of clubs and if they changed that it might cause problems.

I wouldn't say it's set in stone, Level 7 and 8 are going to be finishing at the end of May due to the national lockdown. Then they've got the allocations to sort out, once they've declared, they'll have to go through appeals because there'll be some clubs who will be unhappy where they've been placed. All this to happen before a potential start of the season in August. Wait until later on in the season to hear news.

You won't be able to move it forward a year because you don't know the clubs that are going to be in the divisions! What you're basically to do is try and reinvent the wheel for your car and your car hasn't been built yet.

I said this to someone on here last year, stick to this year's rules before going onto next year's and adapt to it. I for one am only focusing what's happening on this season. The time for me to focus on next season is when this season has finished, and I've been doing that for the last few years.

Yeh i get that 100% and i do agree that it is slightly premature, this still doesnt excuse SIs birdsnest ruleset, club history should be stored in the DB not the rules anyway so i dunno if thats the case.

Im willing to play make believe and take what sources i have with information of the expansion and fill the gaps myself, it may not be 100% accurate but its far better than the currently scuffed non league system with its 1-2-4-7 set up ( good luck making rules for super playoffs and PPG stuff) I have seen that the new league at step 4 is going to be Central North so rejigging teams to fit wont be an issue, plus regional prom/rel has been worked on this year AFAIK and you are able to see why the game is moving teams to what division.

I really dont want to stick to this years rules, they are changing them for a reason hahaha

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Just now, krlenjushka said:

Yeah why not :D

Goddamnit. You could be out here fighting with us but you are already defeated by this incompetant editor dev team. We have needed your expertise for a couple of years now.

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Ok i think its confirmed that the 21 and 22 team rulesets are for South and North respectively and contain the other leagues for no reason whatsoever and are using the requirements section to somehow apply the rules to 1 league only which makes no sense whatsoever.

Here is the relegation rules the "Multiple competitions 21 teams"
image.thumb.png.07b9c79c10696fce5bb1dfb55a2dd4f9.png

And here is the same section for "Multiple competitions 22 teams"
 

image.thumb.png.aae61daf04e0e3ad4116eca657f353f0.png

 

So they bundle the other league into 1 leagues rules for no reason and wonder why everything starts falling apart and people like me complain.

 

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1 minute ago, NexusSix said:

im the same mate ran a sim until 2023 and all is fine.

Now going to remove brexit and some other tweaks and good to go.

Can you guys please remain vocal here though? There are still massive problems and i would hate for this guys weird workaround to make a bunch of people complacent when its only paving over some glaring rule issues this year.

I only say this because this forum dies a horrible death 2 -3 months after release and is probably 99% of the reason the Devs dont give a **** about the editor. We need more people this year to raise their voices.

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1 minute ago, NexusSix said:

Of course mate. I wanted to do this whole thing myself, i did last year.

 

Cheers buddy. Seeing as people like @krlenjushka and Claasen etc have quit we have a massive knowledge drought and the editing community needs way more engagement.

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@FCUtdWill I think i figured out what "Multiple competitions 22 teams (fixed)" is


Here is the required valid year thing they seem to be using to distinguish between North and South in the other 2 rulesets but (fixed) seems to accommodate for both of them together 


image.thumb.png.3a3bb2a6e508847892698619380a2ca7.png

 

image.thumb.png.446b008bb8ce043cd6bdbcdc33dd451a.png

It seems like some sort of over arching driver for both of the leagues at once and maybe provides some instructions that are applied to both, if i could compare all 3 with Notepad++ It would explain alot.

But OF COURSE it cant be that simple, if you look here it displays the 3 team relegation that the basic rules show greyed out.

image.thumb.png.cce7347f0dbeb12bde9aa53089604398.png

The only way i can make sense of this is if its aggregating both North and Souths relegation spots into 1 rule set? Therefore the "hardcoded" 3 relegations it showed greyed out in Basic editor is a reflection of this. However i do recall 3 relegation spots being displayed per league last year at step 2 so i dunno.

 

image.thumb.png.4082b31f7b5c645ddd9527c4efde1cd5.png

 

There are also no promotion rules set here which means that the promotion rules are being set in the respective 21 and 22 team rules further making the purpose of this ruleset questionable (Unless deleting this ruleset will "fix" the greyed out Prom/Rel fields in Basic editor"

But after checking over the whole ruleset the only difference is that (fixed) accommodates for 21 -22 teams and also aggregates the 3 relegation places for 20/21 into 1 ruleset. What this accomplishes is beyond me







 

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11 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Cheers buddy. Seeing as people like @krlenjushka and Claasen etc have quit we have a massive knowledge drought and the editing community needs way more engagement.

most good users with lots of knowledge and who helped a lot have left here due to the poor attitude SI have towards the editing community mate and the same old issues year in and year out

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1 minute ago, Roy Race 9 said:

most good users with lots of knowledge and who helped a lot have left here due to the poor attitude SI have towards the editing community mate and the same old issues year in and year out

Its honestly such a shame how much extra sales have people like Krlenjushka and Claasen generated for SI? I would bet its in the thousands! Good editors that can create and help other aspiring editors add so much life into the game when you get tired of the official leagues yet we get less attention than Online mode people.

@Freddie Sands It would be really appreciated if you and the staff can touch base with us on some of these issues, there are clearly some people here that have created alot for the game and they have been disenfranchised by the lack of cooperation you have with this part of the community. Dont you think you guys are due for a little bit of a "community post" explaining some of the grievances people have? I really dont want to see such a massive part of this game die because of poor communication.

Half of the reason i buy this game every year is the hope that the editor has been improved and the other half is the prospect of the creation possibilities and crazy ideas we can implement into a Football simulator, when the editor dies so does the 40 quid of each person like me. I know its been a rough year but a bunch of the staff up there at SI know so much stuff we are desperate to find out, is it really too hard to have a bit of dialogue with us instead of the occasional locked post explaining issues? I watch steamdb constantly i have alerts set up and the pre game editor branch only gets stuff pushed to it every 1.5 days if that.

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