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Great work. :applause:

For me the most devastating thing Bayern do is the way they attack the penalty box and how they play the ball there. Liverpool do pretty much the same thing as well from a slightly different framework. 

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Focus play focuses passing down a specific area, players will also move towards these areas to support the passing focus. You can see from the images I linked above, when i build my play down the right flank, i create overloads down that flank. And as I explained the overloads allow me to counterpress very effectively when i have the ball. Naturally the quality of my counterpress will depend on the kind of players that i have. 

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Great, unfortunately I couldn't watch your live yesterday. I'll try to replicate this on my save in Brazil.

One thing that I didn't understand, you give the instruction roam from position to the striker and wingers?

 

Thanks!

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37 minutes ago, LucasBR said:

Great, unfortunately I couldn't watch your live yesterday. I'll try to replicate this on my save in Brazil.

One thing that I didn't understand, you give the instruction roam from position to the striker and wingers?

 

Thanks!

I think that the front 4 either have roaming as part of the role (trequartista, complete forward) or have it added as a PI

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Have you asked yourself the question: what is the objective of Bayern's offensive movements?

Because what makes the difference between the offensive animation of Bayern and others teams is their ability to find players in a position to center.

Bayern's goal is to find the free player with a dangerous center angle, usually looking for the far post.

And you never allude to that.

Sorry for the english, it's google translation.

 

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5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Focus play focuses passing down a specific area, players will also move towards these areas to support the passing focus. You can see from the images I linked above, when i build my play down the right flank, i create overloads down that flank. And as I explained the overloads allow me to counterpress very effectively when i have the ball. Naturally the quality of my counterpress will depend on the kind of players that i have. 

Okay, thanks. But why are these instructions overpowered? 

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55 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Yeah I'd like to know the answer to this too? Is it an exploit or is it okay to use? @Rashidi

Hi,

Think you all misunderstood what RASHIDI meant talking about "overpowered" focus play ... IMO he just meant that once you have a clear vision of what you wanna achieve, roles and duties needed to do so, you can make the most of it using the right focus... We have now more control on what we wanna achieve ... Hope RASHIDI will confirm i'm right ... 

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On 23/11/2020 at 22:16, Rashidi said:

This is perhaps one of the more interesting challenges on Football Manager, and it is a good exercise in using FM21’s overpowered Focus play instructions to create overloads.

This is what he wrote @keysea. And I just wanted to know why he states that the Focus Play instructions are overpowered. 

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I don't mean it as an exploit, it just feels overpowered because I now feel like I have more control of how the overloads are meant to happen. On hindsight I should have rephrased that.

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On 25/11/2020 at 00:39, blj-fabolous said:

Have you asked yourself the question: what is the objective of Bayern's offensive movements?

Because what makes the difference between the offensive animation of Bayern and others teams is their ability to find players in a position to center.

Bayern's goal is to find the free player with a dangerous center angle, usually looking for the far post.

And you never allude to that.

Sorry for the english, it's google translation.

 

Yup exactly, the fluidity of the movement and the way Muller drops to support the overloads allows them to find open players on the opposite flank.

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Just now, Rashidi said:

I don't mean it as an exploit, it just feels overpowered because I now feel like I have more control of how the overloads are meant to happen. On hindsight I should have rephrased that.

Okay, thanks for your answer. :-)

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11 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I don't mean it as an exploit, it just feels overpowered because I now feel like I have more control of how the overloads are meant to happen. On hindsight I should have rephrased that.

Phew :)

As you know I was planning to use this, so I'm glad you have cleared this up 👍🏻

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@Rashidi this looks really interesting. I'm in pre-season on season 2 of an Arsenal save.  Had a decent season with my own 4-2-3-1 (2nd in the league, FA Cup final, Europa League final) but looking for something a bit different this season.  I'm not sure who could play Trequartista though - I did buy Depay who could potentially work there? do you feel this formation would only work with Bayern? thanks!

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21 hours ago, jdubsnz said:

@Rashidi this looks really interesting. I'm in pre-season on season 2 of an Arsenal save.  Had a decent season with my own 4-2-3-1 (2nd in the league, FA Cup final, Europa League final) but looking for something a bit different this season.  I'm not sure who could play Trequartista though - I did buy Depay who could potentially work there? do you feel this formation would only work with Bayern? thanks!

It was created for Bayern obviously, but I see no harm in trying it with other teams. I'm going to use it for my main save as Man Utd, and Utd need way more surgery on the squad for it to work well imo, but I'm still going to disable the first window anyway! :D

It's the CM (D) and CM (S) roles especially that you need to find the right players for, and Arsenal have good all-rounders that can play there already, whereas Utd don't. Man Utd do have better Treq options though. Depay could certainly play there imo as long as you don't expect much from him when it comes to pressing due to his low(ish) teamwork and work rate. It's not absolutely awful but at 12/11, not great.

It would be really interesting to see someone else use this especially with a different team from me :)

Edited by Gee_Simpson
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I think if I had gone wider, the first pass in most cases would be out to the flanks and I would see a more concerted attempt to use the wider players. The players would be further away in turning making the counterpress slightly harder to pull off. Counter pressing is easier on narrow formations

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@Rashidi I have a doubt about Muller as a Trequartista. The role set "dribble more" but Muller does not have a good value in dribbling and also in reality very hardly dribbles the man. Wouldn't it be appropriate, also given its exceptional mental attributes, to set it as AMsu with roam from position?

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1 hour ago, Bot Makel said:

@Rashidi I have a doubt about Muller as a Trequartista. The role set "dribble more" but Muller does not have a good value in dribbling and also in reality very hardly dribbles the man. Wouldn't it be appropriate, also given its exceptional mental attributes, to set it as AMsu with roam from position?

I wouldn't worry too much about that to be honest. Dribble More doesn't mean every time he has the ball he'll make a run, it just gives him the instruction to look to run on the ball more & he's certainly intelligence enough to know when to run or not. Taking the Trequartisa  off of him will mean he'd lose the "ball magnet" effect & see less of the play which could have a huge effect as a whole 

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10 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I wouldn't worry too much about that to be honest. Dribble More doesn't mean every time he has the ball he'll make a run, it just gives him the instruction to look to run on the ball more & he's certainly intelligence enough to know when to run or not. Taking the Trequartisa  off of him will mean he'd lose the "ball magnet" effect & see less of the play which could have a huge effect as a whole 

Dribble more ok doesn't have much influence even though Muller carries very little of the ball and plays more within a few touches. I don't think muller actually attracts the ball to himself, quite the contrary. His role is to find the right space and in that moment receive the ball and make the play. He will not always be given the ball, even in difficulty.

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15 minutes ago, Bot Makel said:

Dribble more ok doesn't have much influence even though Muller carries very little of the ball and plays more within a few touches. I don't think muller actually attracts the ball to himself, quite the contrary. His role is to find the right space and in that moment receive the ball and make the play. He will not always be given the ball, even in difficulty.

Very interesting point, maybe one for Rashidi to consider 

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On 23/11/2020 at 21:16, Rashidi said:

I also added tight marking for the team in general as a PI and left it on the front 4 players

Can you please clarify what this means? I see that the Use Tighter Marking is used as a TI, does this just mean same applies to the front 4 without any PI adjustment?

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11 hours ago, lanewalk said:

Can you please clarify what this means? I see that the Use Tighter Marking is used as a TI, does this just mean same applies to the front 4 without any PI adjustment?

Yes

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On 29/11/2020 at 03:02, Gee_Simpson said:

It was created for Bayern obviously, but I see no harm in trying it with other teams. I'm going to use it for my main save as Man Utd, and Utd need way more surgery on the squad for it to work well imo, but I'm still going to disable the first window anyway! :D

It's the CM (D) and CM (S) roles especially that you need to find the right players for, and Arsenal have good all-rounders that can play there already, whereas Utd don't. Man Utd do have better Treq options though. Depay could certainly play there imo as long as you don't expect much from him when it comes to pressing due to his low(ish) teamwork and work rate. It's not absolutely awful but at 12/11, not great.

It would be really interesting to see someone else use this especially with a different team from me :)

@Gee_Simpsoncheers. Bought Aouar and played him as Treq in second game of the season. Was man of the match! Depay also played really well in the first. @Rashidireally interesting approach, will let you know how the Arsenal save goes

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Hi everyone,

I found this map of the average position during the buildup for last year Bayern's team.

Schermafbeelding-2020-05-05-om-17_32_19.png.0bd3e4d10681a59c747823150690489a.png

How do you think you can translate this into FM?

IMHO, the hardest parts would be the DM pairing (Kimmich and Thiago were definitively DMs as they were building from really deep) and the upfront pairing Lewangoalski - Muller.

To be honest, I'm struggling on which mentality use to replicate their buildup. It is pretty slow from deep, Thiago broke lines with long passes and things were getting hectic in the last third.

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6 hours ago, Delial said:

Hi everyone,

I found this map of the average position during the buildup for last year Bayern's team.

Schermafbeelding-2020-05-05-om-17_32_19.png.0bd3e4d10681a59c747823150690489a.png

How do you think you can translate this into FM?

IMHO, the hardest parts would be the DM pairing (Kimmich and Thiago were definitively DMs as they were building from really deep) and the upfront pairing Lewangoalski - Muller.

To be honest, I'm struggling on which mentality use to replicate their buildup. It is pretty slow from deep, Thiago broke lines with long passes and things were getting hectic in the last third.

I think DM pair should be HB (Kimmich on DMCL) and RPM (Thiago/Goretzka on DMCR). Even if it's not a Bayern replication, I think @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!nails some key aspects of Bayern tactics with an asymmetric 424 (actually inspired by Pelé and 1970) in his Caixa/Benfica thread, including DM pair and AMC/ST partnership. Long thread, but worth reading ;)

Edited by kandersson
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Perfect tactic this. Switched to this with Brentford and haven't lost a game since then. Having above average players also helps I guess but players (particularly wide ones) really tire out towards the end of games 

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Been doing a little bit of work, trying to mix this with some total football stuff with my Chesterfield team in League One.

Theres some really fantastic passing football getting played at times, and I can see a lot of what Rashidi is aiming to do in the way my side set up, even if I'm doing it with some slightly different roles in the AM/ST areas (mainly because my players aren't as skilled as Munichs )

 

 

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Made reference to it.. I love the recycle here.

3Rp2NSVSSM.gif.32f2e6a418356f2b301a249589ddc880.gif

Broken into bits below.

Ball gets cleared out by their CM.

OdWl7CU.png

Intercepted by RCM, who then squares to LCM.

JYwq1Uy.png

Ball passed back to RCM, who rolls pass back to LDC who moves into space to collect ball.

9TJeIgj.png

LDC gets closed down by 18, which leaves ball to LB (45) or risky pass into channel for AMC(7) or LW(39).

CiDxsHR.png

LB collects pass, and moves back before turning and going outside opposition RW(34). In the centre, players start moving into space again.

um4lZHA.png

LB checks his run, AMC(7) and LCM(4) have dropped into space for the pass inside.

Ges23ra.png

Ball is passed to AMC, LB continues his run, leaving 34 with a choice of closing AMC down, or following LB.

He chooses the former, which allows the pass to spring LB into space.

GA25joo.png

 

Continuing his run, LB has large space to move into, heads for the byline and hits a cross.

In the box, LW, ST and RW are engaging 3 defenders, with the 2 wingers having a small amount of space.

FGc2Egq.png

RW finds a bit of space, having dropped behind the LB(15), and hits a header back across goal into the far corner.

IvXqGcK.png

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, robterrace said:

Been doing a little bit of work, trying to mix this with some total football stuff with my Chesterfield team in League One.

Theres some really fantastic passing football getting played at times, and I can see a lot of what Rashidi is aiming to do in the way my side set up, even if I'm doing it with some slightly different roles in the AM/ST areas (mainly because my players aren't as skilled as Munichs )

 

 

I love this, the game offers so much, when people evaluate what they want from their players then look for the roles that come closest to getting it done. Understanding what your players are capable off in relation to the rest of the league often makes things a lot easier.

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27 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I love this, the game offers so much, when people evaluate what they want from their players then look for the roles that come closest to getting it done. Understanding what your players are capable off in relation to the rest of the league often makes things a lot easier.

Thanks.

Its something that I love doing, and, I think FM21 has it better than previous years. The interplay I've seen in the build up to changes is excellent, and, for once, it seems that players actually use a little bit of intelligence in their passing options when given the chance.

I have got a player coming through at AMC who prefers to play as an enganche, so I may give that a go in the next few games and see what happens.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've been trying out ideas from this tactic, specifically the TQ/CF(s) and roaming on the front 4 in my Liverpool save. I understand the Narrow+Focus Flanks is meant to create the overloads down either flank. Have you guys sometimes found (even though my team predictably walked the league) that the extreme narrow width can cause too much congestion when the opponents sit deep and narrow as well?

Also... I think this system has similarities to how Liverpool line up in a 4231. I've done some adaptations - Salah at AMR to a IF(A) and Trent at FB to CWB(S). The CM(D) making up for that flank. I also tend to play on positive mentality. I wonder if this upsets the balance as I'm also worried about giving the LB an attacking duty (WB(S)). What do you guys think?

Alternatively... what are your thoughts about 4231 but with deeper DMs as mentioned above. HB/RPM or Anchor/RPM, or DLP(D)/RPM? Then literally turn Trent into Kimmich and play him in the RPM role.

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53 minutes ago, Riziger said:

wonder if this upsets the balance as I'm also worried about  giving the LB an attacking duty (WB(S)). What do you guys think?

Alternatively... what are your thoughts about 4231 but with deeper DMs as mentioned above. HB/RPM or Anchor/RPM, or DLP(D)/RPM? Then literally turn Trent into Kimmich and play him in the RPM role.

Its always good to try things out and see what happens, nothing inherently wrong with what you propose, plus congestion in the central areas was necessary for my initial design because i wanted the flanks free for the wider players. The 4231deep version is actually what I did in the Controlled Block Preset thread. That tactic was a derivation of this one. So its entirely possible to play with 2DMs the key are the 3 central mids. The one i posted is very aggressive, because that is the style i like, a more reckless one. Conservative styles may include a DM/DLP/AM(S) combo I would avoid the anchorman because he could  stay too deep in a system that still needs to bridge the gap between DM strata and AMC strata.

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1 minute ago, Rashidi said:

Its always good to try things out and see what happens, nothing inherently wrong with what you propose, plus congestion in the central areas was necessary for my initial design because i wanted the flanks free for the wider players. The 4231deep version is actually what I did in the Controlled Block Preset thread. That tactic was a derivation of this one. So its entirely possible to play with 2DMs the key are the 3 central mids. The one i posted is very aggressive, because that is the style i like, a more reckless one. Conservative styles may include a DM/DLP/AM(S) combo I would avoid the anchorman because he could  stay too deep in a system that still needs to bridge the gap between DM strata and AMC strata.

Thanks @Rashidi. Yeah will give them a try this evening. I really like your use of the SV(A) REG but I think for this version those are not considered a 'double pivot' right? Instead here we let the fullbacks bomb forward. Might go with the HB RPM and see first, but might change the HB to DLP (either D or S).

Going a little off topic here slightly - if the goal scorer instead comes from the flanks i.e. Salah/Mane. Is the logic of focus play through the middle to 'release' the flanks correct? I realise that this changes the dynamic of the tactic quite a bit as this Bayern version is kind of meant to draw teams from side to side.

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5 minutes ago, Riziger said:

Going a little off topic here slightly - if the goal scorer instead comes from the flanks i.e. Salah/Mane. Is the logic of focus play through the middle to 'release' the flanks correct? I realise that this changes the dynamic of the tactic quite a bit as this Bayern version is kind of meant to draw teams from side to side.

Yes exactly, so whenever i apply a focus my eyes are on the side where the focus was not applied to. Essentially how do players and roles work in areas that have more space.

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Thanks for opening my eyes for the focus play-instructions, @Rashidi I love how you with the right roles can create natural overloads then see the side switch where the space has opened up. Love how even a CM-s comes wide or into the half space to build the play and lurk the opposition on one side. 

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                      TA

IFS                                         IWS       

              BBM       MEZA

                     DMD  

WBS         CD         CD          WBS

                       SKS

Maybe this?

 

Edited by frukox
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Really great topic, I have been trying this with At. Madrid as I thought Felix would be good for the TQ role but I'm struggling to get him involved, he isn't scoring, creating chances and he's getting low ratings. Maybe its due to his Teamwork and Work Rate being fairly low (12/11).  

I'm going to try changing his role to an AM(A) to see if he improves and is less of a passenger, but are there any other roles that could fit or he just isn’t suitable for this formation?

Edited by Paulz
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13 hours ago, Paulz said:

Really great topic, I have been trying this with At. Madrid as I thought Felix would be good for the TQ role but I'm struggling to get him involved, he isn't scoring, creating chances and he's getting low ratings. Maybe its due to his Teamwork and Work Rate being fairly low (12/11).  

I'm going to try changing his role to an AM(A) to see if he improves and is less of a passenger, but are there any other roles that could fit or he just isn’t suitable for this formation?

im using a shadow striker role, find him a bit more active overall 

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