Balance in FM / Do I need to raise data report

[craiigman]

In a way this is kind of similar to the Sean Maguire post, as is comparing attributes to FIFA's, but I have a few more examples.

At the moment I am trying to recreate my FIFA style of play into FM again, so I have booted up FIFA and making notes of what I am doing/phases of play etc. I am now at the stage where I am looking at the types of players I am using to try and match them up to FM.

Example 1: Mertens and Insigne.

Mertens: FIFA Agility 94, Balance 92 - FM Agility 16, Balance 10

Insigne: FIFA Agility 93, Balance 93 - FM Agility 18, Balance 9

I then look at the centre backs Koulibaly and Manolas, who in FIFA have very low balance and agility.

Koulibaly: FIFA Agility 52, Balance 41 - FM Agility 14, Balance 19

Manolas: FIFA Agility 67, Balance 60 - FM Agility 12, Balance 17

At this point I am thinking that Balance must just be different in FM to FIFA completely. But then I do a search for Balance and Agility 15+ and it's full of players I would have expected before looking at the Koulibaly and Manolas. Players with low centre of gravity, good agile dribblers, those that match up with FIFA's.

So on one hand FIFA and FM seem to be on the same page with balance, then on the other hand very different. Based on these findings I think I should raise a report that Mertens and Insigne are too low, but I'd like to know how balance is meant to be determined in FM first.

[WeePaul]

Here's the definition of the Balance attribute from the head Scottish researcher in the Scottish data issues thread 

 

"This determines how accurately the player can kick while moving at speed, and how good he is at staying on his feet after crossing the ball while running at a high pace.
It should also be taken into consideration when considering how well he keeps his balance when challenged, although Strength is the main determining factor for that."

 

I can't say I've seen enough of any of the players in question to reliable rate them but balance of 19 for a CB does seem odd given that definition.

[FlorianAlbert9]

I think it is a mistake in the undestanding of attributes from the research as were in past years with long throw (in Italy considerated as 'long passes') and jumping (that in past edition the research using wrongly keeping in mind player's height )

[JordanMilly]

I'd generally not trust the FIFA stats, given how wildly incorrect some of them have been in the past, and they often increase those individual stats because it otherwise brings their Overall rating down, unlike in FM.

The chances of any of the FM attributes for players being changed based on "FIFA has them higher/lower" is slim to none.

[craiigman]

6 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

I'd generally not trust the FIFA stats, given how wildly incorrect some of them have been in the past, and they often increase those individual stats because it otherwise brings their Overall rating down, unlike in FM.

The chances of any of the FM attributes for players being changed based on "FIFA has them higher/lower" is slim to none.

As a general I would agree, which is why I was comparing to see. These ones stick out quite a bit. I have raised in the Italy data thread.

[HUNT3R]

Don't use FIFA as a metric. I'm not sure what their definition of Balance is and how it's used, but it might not be the same as in FM. Rather compare real life and FM. 

I've posted about Balance before, here: 

• Used for deciding what type of shot and the power of it is possible when moving at speed, overhead kicks, how well they can cope with a change of momentum through performing a pass/cross/tackle/dribble.
• Used in combination with Strength when checking if a player can stand their ground in a collision between two players
• Used in combination with Strength deciding delay resulting from going to the ground
• Used in combination with Strength when scoring dribbling attribute when the player is under pressure
• Used in combination with Strength when scoring decisions on controlling ball, creating space on receiving ball, turning on ball or holding up ball

[craiigman]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

Don't use FIFA as a metric. I'm not sure what their definition of Balance is and how it's used, but it might not be the same as in FM. Rather compare real life and FM. 

I've posted about Balance before, here: 

• Used for deciding what type of shot and the power of it is possible when moving at speed, overhead kicks, how well they can cope with a change of momentum through performing a pass/cross/tackle/dribble.
• Used in combination with Strength when checking if a player can stand their ground in a collision between two players
• Used in combination with Strength deciding delay resulting from going to the ground
• Used in combination with Strength when scoring dribbling attribute when the player is under pressure
• Used in combination with Strength when scoring decisions on controlling ball, creating space on receiving ball, turning on ball or holding up ball

Thank you. I do still believe that Mertens and Insigne’s balance is too low, I have put in the Italy thread about it. Based on that info, how/what evidence should I be providing to try and prove that?

From watching them both IRL they play very similarly to all the players that came up on the list of the 15/15 search in FM.

Do I need to try and find clips of them not falling over?

[callamity]

7 hours ago, craiigman said:

Thank you. I do still believe that Mertens and Insigne’s balance is too low, I have put in the Italy thread about it. Based on that info, how/what evidence should I be providing to try and prove that?

From watching them both IRL they play very similarly to all the players that came up on the list of the 15/15 search in FM.

Do I need to try and find clips of them not falling over?

I think this is where balance and strength are confused, if you submit a load of wingers/forwards not falling over when being challenged youd end up with everyone having 15 balance 15 strength. I think these need to be seperated a little to suit forwards vs defenders in the weightings. So forwards have higher balance, defenders higher strength. 

 

But thats just one side of it. 

The attribute counts for much more. Your insigne running at high speed may not be able to perform a certain type of shot/pass/cross. So has lower balance. 

Also it might take less contact to take him off his feet at high speed so lower balance. 

List goes on really. 

[Rashidi]

And don't forget SI rarely ever look at one attribute to perform a task well, in most cases its the combination of different attributes. Isolating one attribute is usually not enough.

[s0ni42]

The gameplay of these games is vastly different. Any comparison. Is not apples to apples. Even if named the same.

[Jack Joyce]

Balance is used for a variety of things, but one of the key elements is actions when moving at speed. How does a player handle a sudden change in momentum etc. Some pacy dribblers are better at twisting/turning at speed than others, and balance comes into that part of the equation.

It's also used as a minor factor when a player is holding up the ball and being challenged physically. Strength is the main factor but balance comes into it too. This doesn't mean you can't have a player with low strength and high balance, you certainly can! e.g. someone like Santi Cazorla can twist/turn while maintaining their balance with ease, and despite their very low strength can hold the ball up fairly well due to their low centre of gravity + balance.

Hopefully this explanation helps! in terms of research that's not my area, but you'll have to make a strong case for any changes with evidence to back it up. Generally speaking though the best dribblers in the world usually have good agility and balance as well, which allows them to change direction easier when moving at high speeds.

[craiigman]

27 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

Balance is used for a variety of things, but one of the key elements is actions when moving at speed. How does a player handle a sudden change in momentum etc. Some pacy dribblers are better at twisting/turning at speed than others, and balance comes into that part of the equation.

It's also used as a minor factor when a player is holding up the ball and being challenged physically. Strength is the main factor but balance comes into it too. This doesn't mean you can't have a player with low strength and high balance, you certainly can! e.g. someone like Santi Cazorla can twist/turn while maintaining their balance with ease, and despite their very low strength can hold the ball up fairly well due to their low centre of gravity + balance.

Hopefully this explanation helps! in terms of research that's not my area, but you'll have to make a strong case for any changes with evidence to back it up. Generally speaking though the best dribblers in the world usually have good agility and balance as well, which allows them to change direction easier when moving at high speeds.

I agree with all of this, which is why I felt Mertens and Insigne stood out in this regard. I have raised as a data issue for those 2 players. Both players do exactly as you have mentioned when dribbling, and their agility matches that, but the balance doesn’t. 

[Jack Joyce]

14 minutes ago, craiigman said:

I agree with all of this, which is why I felt Mertens and Insigne stood out in this regard. I have raised as a data issue for those 2 players. Both players do exactly as you have mentioned when dribbling, and their agility matches that, but the balance doesn’t. 

As I say, it's not specifically my area since the ME and research teams are separate. But if the players are good at dribbling out of tight areas, changing direction quickly and shooting/crossing while moving at speed, then they probably should have good agility and balance. You could well be on to something here, but just be sure to back it up with clear evidence and examples.

[HUNT3R]

7 minutes ago, craiigman said:

I agree with all of this, which is why I felt Mertens and Insigne stood out in this regard. I have raised as a data issue for those 2 players. Both players do exactly as you have mentioned when dribbling, and their agility matches that, but the balance doesn’t. 

You're specifically mentioning dribbling @craiigman. Balance covers everything, including crossing/passing/shooting at pace or on the turn etc. It might be that the researchers included this as well when they decided to rate the Balance. Of course, you have posted in the correct area, so you should hear back from them. I'm not overly familiar with the specific players but just wanted to throw a different point of view out there, though I'm also not a researcher.