Jump to content

FM21 - Low Block possible?


Recommended Posts

Before I contemplate investing any hard earned I'd like to know from the experts/game creators if it possible to be successful with a low block style (Low line of engagement, low line of defence, Regroup....etc...) or is the match engine still favouring higher lines & Counter Press styles? 

 

Thank you. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Better than FM 21. but still finding far post crosses a bit too effective to be a solid enough option and find myself pushing higher when trying to hold on to a lead.

Fully expect to be exposed down the wings when sitting deep, but feels a bit futile when attacking wingers seem to have an advantage when getting to the ball first. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, YAMS said:

(Low line of engagement, low line of defence, Regroup....etc...)

You don't need low line of defense for a low block. Only lower line of engagement. Regroup is not necessary either. 

But whether a tactic will work does not depend only on whether it employs a low, high or medium block. A lot more factors contribute to either a success or failure. The tactic as a whole must make sense, in the first place. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, YAMS said:

But is it possible to be successful playing with lower lines in general or is the ME still favoured towards higher lines?

Depends on what specifically you mean by "successful". Because being successful is not always the same as winning trophies. For a team that is expected to be relegated, avoiding relegation is a success. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Depends on what specifically you mean by "successful". Because being successful is not always the same as winning trophies. For a team that is expected to be relegated, avoiding relegation is a success. 

Ok, I'll rephrase.... Will the plug n pay tactics by the famous ones who carry out such creations be just as OP in this version as in FM20. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, YAMS said:

Ok, I'll rephrase.... Will the plug n pay tactics by the famous ones who carry out such creations be just as OP in this version as in FM20. 

Unfortunately, plug'n'play (exploit) tactics have been overpowered in every version of FM, so I doubt it will be different in FM21, simply because no ME can be perfect despite all improvements being made. But PnP/exploit tactics are an entirely different pair of shoes and hence completely irrelevant to the topic. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Unfortunately, plug'n'play (exploit) tactics have been overpowered in every version of FM, so I doubt it will be different in FM21, simply because no ME can be perfect despite all improvements being made. But PnP/exploit tactics are an entirely different pair of shoes and hence completely irrelevant to the topic. 

Questioned answered. Thank you. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is generally much harder to set up a tactic where you will face a lot of pressure from the opposition, because you have to get your defending spot on, and really have a potent attacking outlet. I think when most people want to use such a tactic they take it to the extreme and as a result become very passive. Sitting deep and letting teams come on to you is generally not a good idea. 

And can it work in FM? Clearly, since the AI does it very effectively at times and it annoys players constantly by parking the bus and being hard to break down. However most of the time it still loses. The problem with playing passive football is that you are just inviting proactive teams to attack you, and one goal ruins everything. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, YAMS said:

Ok, I'll rephrase.... Will the plug n pay tactics by the famous ones who carry out such creations be just as OP in this version as in FM20. 

Why does it matter if they're as good (or not) as a plug n play tactic?

If your tactic is well thought out and you sign players appropriate for it, you can be successful with just about any style, low block included.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since you can do less pressing individually, the team instruction also needs that option in the slider. There will be times when you can play with less pressing, you may not want your strikers working their socks off with the rest of the team, remaining relatively free for the counter. In that case you may want to remove pressing from them only.  

There are also times when you may want to do a really aggressive block in a smaller area here the team slider being pushed all the way can be useful. I rarely ever play on max pressing, but i have made systems which use them, its a bit unnerving for me to see so many players rushing around. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
hace 9 horas, Enzo_Francescoli dijo:

In your opinion, are there any cases when less urgent or much less urgent pressing makes sense? I mean there must be a reason that slider goes both ways.

I believe it makes sense when you are playing certain formations that can be left vulnerable when a defender presses at the wrong time. For example, a flat 4-4-2 can be easily destroyed if your central midfielders break shape and your wide midfielders are not narrow to provide support. I've tried flat 4-4-2 with less pressing and did well. You give the opposition opportunity to get forward so you can get them on the counter, while also maintaining a good shape that is not easy to break. It is not like the players will be completely passive when defending with less pressing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Since you can do less pressing individually, the team instruction also needs that option in the slider. There will be times when you can play with less pressing, you may not want your strikers working their socks off with the rest of the team, remaining relatively free for the counter. In that case you may want to remove pressing from them only.  

I meant generally, as a TI.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, kidd_05_u2 said:

I believe it makes sense when you are playing certain formations that can be left vulnerable when a defender presses at the wrong time. For example, a flat 4-4-2 can be easily destroyed if your central midfielders break shape and your wide midfielders are not narrow to provide support. I've tried flat 4-4-2 with less pressing and did well. You give the opposition opportunity to get forward so you can get them on the counter, while also maintaining a good shape that is not easy to break. It is not like the players will be completely passive when defending with less pressing.

I think I haven't ever seen a tactic that used less urgent pressing, not to mention much less urgent. Ever. I would guess it's for set-ups that are already top-heavy, with high lines and attacking mentality and some aggressive roles. Then again, experience tells me that more urgent actually works better in those cases too.

Link to post
Share on other sites
hace 5 horas, Enzo_Francescoli dijo:

I think I haven't ever seen a tactic that used less urgent pressing, not to mention much less urgent. Ever. I would guess it's for set-ups that are already top-heavy, with high lines and attacking mentality and some aggressive roles. Then again, experience tells me that more urgent actually works better in those cases too.

In FM it doesn't make sense to go less pressing too often because the ME doesn't punish teams that press a lot as much as it should. But like I said, in certain formations or for weak teams that absolutely need to maintain a solid defensive shape, it can work. You won't see it in the forum because people mostly post tactics that seek to dominate, but I have certainly used tactics that relied on less urgent pressing and had relative success. Usually while managing teams that were relegation candidates, but not exclusively.

In FM21 I'm managing Arsenal and beat Liverpool 1-0 while playing a 5-2-3 with less urgent pressing. Liverpool had more than 20 shots, but mostly from outside the penalty box because they struggled to break through my defense. xG was narrowly in their favor even though I had much fewer shots while playing on the counter. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kidd_05_u2 said:

In FM it doesn't make sense to go less pressing too often because the ME doesn't punish teams that press a lot as much as it should. But like I said, in certain formations or for weak teams that absolutely need to maintain a solid defensive shape, it can work. You won't see it in the forum because people mostly post tactics that seek to dominate, but I have certainly used tactics that relied on less urgent pressing and had relative success. Usually while managing teams that were relegation candidates, but not exclusively.

In FM21 I'm managing Arsenal and beat Liverpool 1-0 while playing a 5-2-3 with less urgent pressing. Liverpool had more than 20 shots, but mostly from outside the penalty box because they struggled to break through my defense. xG was narrowly in their favor even though I had much fewer shots while playing on the counter. 

It is good to know it can work sometimes. Judging from you careful wording, however, those cases are few and far inbetween. Whereas in real life, even the biggest clubs use it, if not for whole games like Simeone, then for sections of matches at least. Even Liverpool aren't that gung-ho with their pressing like they used to be.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Whereas in real life, even the biggest clubs use it, if not for whole games like Simeone

Not sure that Simeone uses less urgent pressing (in FM terminology). While he does play with a low block (most of the time), the manner of defending within that low block is relatively aggressive.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Not sure that Simeone uses less urgent pressing (in FM terminology). While he does play with a low block (most of the time), the manner of defending within that low block is relatively aggressive.

Well, yeah, he changes his strategies a lot. I've seen most of Atletico's games this season and I have seen most everything in terms of pressing. The Salzburg game in the CL, for instance, they definitely went with "less urgent" most times.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I would find it easier on the lines selection if they were grouped as low, medium or high block defaults. The explanation of what these lines do/can do is rather ambiguous. In fact the whole pressing level and where to press could be presented far better than it is. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
hace 6 horas, YAMS dijo:

Personally I would find it easier on the lines selection if they were grouped as low, medium or high block defaults. The explanation of what these lines do/can do is rather ambiguous. In fact the whole pressing level and where to press could be presented far better than it is. 

 

What do you mean ambiguous? You literally have a pitch showing where your players would be positioning themselves depending on what type of line you choose. You want your last line of defense sitting close to your penalty box or closer to midfield? Your forwards pressing the entire pitch, three quarters, or to have them get back to your own half? It is presented really well

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lovely thread, tonnes of great insight in here.  The point around actually having competent defensive players is key. I'm definitely guilt of neglecting work rate and tackling for wingers, so it would make sense to be leaky down the channels regardless of tactical set-up.

What I would like to know is how other people utilize Tight Marking, Tackling Intensity, and Pressing and what the risks / rewards are for each. For a low-block my gut instinct is to go hard on each of them, just to reduce the propensity of long shots and unchallenged headers. The only time I'd look to avoid to is if there's an obvious threat of pace in the opposition. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by dannyfc
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/11/2020 at 09:51, Enzo_Francescoli said:

I think I haven't ever seen a tactic that used less urgent pressing, not to mention much less urgent. Ever. I would guess it's for set-ups that are already top-heavy, with high lines and attacking mentality and some aggressive roles. Then again, experience tells me that more urgent actually works better in those cases too.

I think the reason why is that it is best for purely defensive systems. Which aren't the same as counter attacking systems and I've seen people here get them mixed up.

If you're wanting to play on the counter, it makes sense to leave forward a few players, for example, in a 442, and have your quick players starting for the fast transitions. The problem with less urgent pressing and dropping deep in this situation is that you're going to put so much strain on your defenders, who are basically going to be defending with 9 men (and some of these 9 men would likely be poor defensive players that you are only starting due to their attacking threat) and this inevitably leaves gaps for long shots and good passes. Not only this, but once you win the ball on the edge of your box for example, you are going to have to play through a counter press of 11 opposition players in order to transition the ball to your forwards. If you watch good counter attacking teams (Real Madrid 2012, Leicester now) they don't defend in a low block, they press the ball in the middle, or even higher, to create turovers. If you win the ball in the middle of the pitch then you could have a 3v2 or a 4v3, you can't create turnovers in these positions when you're pressing much less urgently.

If you're dropping deep and pressing less urgently, you need to sacrifice a lot of your attacking threat. When I drop deep and play defensively, I think about the following:

  • Play a conservative formation, normally with one up top max (451, 541 etc)
  • My forward should be able to use his strength to hold up the ball to relieve pressure
  • I use one 'flair' player on the wing, who's job is to run with the ball and create a chance out of nothing or win a set piece (think saint maximan at Newcastle) while the other wide player should be good at defending (either a natural midfielder or a natural fullback. Rarely a natural winger)
  • All midfielders must be happy to defend as a unit and work hard. (no Ozils / Pogbas)
    • I allow one natural deep lying playmaker so that we can play a few accurate long balls and have at least one ball playing midfielder so that we can hold onto the ball well enough and not be constantly defending
  • Insructions should be very low risk
    • Don't play with a high tempo / pass into space / counter / quick gk distribution, as this is how you can lose the ball in dangerous positions
    • Instead you should waste time + lower the tempo + be more displined
      • Although pair this with no nonscence centrebacks so that you don't get caught in posession when you slow everything down

If I do all these things correctly, I rarely concede good chances from open play, and this is where less urgent pressing is useful to me. I generally have to pull out this system reguarly towards the end of games, and also when we play the big boys away.

Edited by Jack722
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, kidd_05_u2 said:

What do you mean ambiguous? You literally have a pitch showing where your players would be positioning themselves depending on what type of line you choose. You want your last line of defense sitting close to your penalty box or closer to midfield? Your forwards pressing the entire pitch, three quarters, or to have them get back to your own half? It is presented really well

I'd like a simple low block/mid block/high block combo option which defaults with a relevant pressing intensity and/or press to areas of the pitch. It's unnecessarily over complicated to build your preferred block/press system. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, YAMS said:

I'd like a simple low block/mid block/high block combo option which defaults with a relevant pressing intensity and/or press to areas of the pitch. It's unnecessarily over complicated to build your preferred block/press system. 

I actually think this would be a) easy to implement and b) pretty useful for beginners. You'd just have a quick toggle for low mid high block that'd auto set the LOE/LOD/pressing urgency and then you can manually alter the lines if you want. However it:

  • wouldn't fit with the rest of the tactics UI- the place for 'combo defaults' is when you're picking a style at the start e.g. gegenpress/route one
  • might add to misunderstanding down the line: "well FM says a medium block is standard LOE/standard DL so how can a standard LOE/high DL be a medium block?"
  • isn't really correct, in so far as vague terms like medium block can be used for diffferent combinations of lines and pressing, like this thread has expanded on (e.g/. aggressive pressing medium block vs passive medium block). And to build in this nuance to presets you'd need loads of different settings, which is no simpler than just setting it yourself
Link to post
Share on other sites
hace 1 hora, YAMS dijo:

I'd like a simple low block/mid block/high block combo option which defaults with a relevant pressing intensity and/or press to areas of the pitch. It's unnecessarily over complicated to build your preferred block/press system. 

If you think the tactic system is over complicated in any one area, you can always go with what the tactical presets give you.

Reducing everything to just three options (low, mid, and high block) would be terrible and very limiting for most players and the pressing intensity you may want is completely independent of the type of block. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, kidd_05_u2 said:

If you think the tactic system is over complicated in any one area, you can always go with what the tactical presets give you.

Reducing everything to just three options (low, mid, and high block) would be terrible and very limiting for most players and the pressing intensity you may want is completely independent of the type of block. 

I said option, meaning an option for some people. It could be fine tune edited for others who want to go in to far more detail. We have defaults for tactical styles that preset TI's. Why not pressing defaults as well. There's too much reading between the lines, so to speak, in the current tactical selections. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17/11/2020 at 22:28, Experienced Defender said:

You don't need low line of defense for a low block. Only lower line of engagement. Regroup is not necessary either. 

But whether a tactic will work does not depend only on whether it employs a low, high or medium block. A lot more factors contribute to either a success or failure. The tactic as a whole must make sense, in the first place. 

Why don't you need a low line of defense nor regroup? What is your understanding of  a "low block"? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've personally managed to grind out some results with a lower defensive line & standard line of engagement, as well as standard defensive line & lower line of engagement w/ offside trap. Beyond that my anxiety would just be too high. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m a fellow low-block lover and imo it’s better this year. Defending in a low-block has always been fine mostly, but my issues have been throw-ins and wide free-kicks being a massive killer. Naturally defending deep you concede these and they were quite overpowered imo. This year they are less overpowered. The entire match engine is massively improved and I really recommend this years version of the game.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Any block is defined primarily by the Line of engagement, not by Defensive line. So a low block logically utilizes a lower or much lower LOE.

So if you want to play with a low block, you potentially have a number of options available in terms of DL/LOE combo:

- much lower DL / much lower LOE 

- lower DL / much lower LOE

- standard DL / much lower LOE

- standard DL / lower LOE

- higher DL / much lower LOE

- higher DL / lower LOE

- much higher DL / much lower LOE

- much higher DL / lower LOE

All these combos nominally belong to the low-block category, because they all use a lower or much lower Line of engagement.

So which one would I opt for? Well, I would always prefer (the) one that gives me an optimal level of (vertical) compactness. And the optimal compactness is - in my experience - achieved when the D-line is set just one notch "higher" than LOE.

Therefore, in the case of a low block, optimal compactness basically involves 2 of the aforementioned combos:

- standard DL & lower LOE

or

- lower DL & much lower LOE

I personally prefer the former, simply because the latter tends to put you under too much pressure from the opposition - usually more than you can handle - so your defense will probably succumb to that much pressure sooner or later. The only situation when I might consider the lower DL/much lower LOE combo is if I want to play a counter-attacking style under a very high team mentality (i.e. attacking or very attacking). Otherwise, standard DL/lower LOE is my favorite low-block setting.

On the other hand, the main reason I (usually) tend to avoid using the Regroup TI when playing with a low block is basically to avoid creating a defensive overkill of sorts (the reason is basically the same as with the lower DL/much lower LOE combo I explained above).

Great post , thank you.

But also so confusing. Because I consider you and @Rashidi amongst the best sources for tactics these days (and others too like Özil etc). So when Rashidi says in this post a few days ago that regroup is a very good instruction for the low block. I suppose you have to consider the context. Maybe Rashidi is willing to take more risks (soak up more pressure) or the team his does it with is generally speaking more capable of soaking up the pressure?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Regroup has implications depending on the formation used.

 If I play a low block then I prefer playing a counter attacking style of football with a regroup, I want my players to drop back when we lose the ball.  In some cases this may not be needed.

Some may consider it a defensive overkill and that can be for some kind of formations. Take the 532, if i were to regroup for that formation, that is overkill, but if i were playing a 442 it wouldn't be. The rationale is simple. the 532 is already a more defensive formation, while the 442 may not be depending on the roles.  In some formations it doesn't pay that much to have your mids tracking back, because you are also fatiguing your players by getting them to move like jack rabbits. If I were playing a 532 i'd just tell them to try and win the ball with counterpress knowing I have 3 defenders back.

So ED's point and my mine are both valid. This game isn't linear there are plenty of options people can employ playing the game.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, DJ Sir Matthew said:

Great post , thank you.

But also so confusing. Because I consider you and @Rashidi amongst the best sources for tactics these days (and others too like Özil etc). So when Rashidi says in this post a few days ago that regroup is a very good instruction for the low block. I suppose you have to consider the context

Of course, you always need to consider the context, therefore there is no set-in-stone "rule" when it comes to both FM and real-life football/soccer.

Plus, we all have different approaches to the game in general and tactics in particular. And each of those different approaches can be correct or wrong - depending on the context. I have learned so much from Rashidi and his videos, but my tactical approach - and hence the tactics I create - is/are still different from his. Simply because everyone should play the game the way they feel the most comfortable with - without trying to emulate/copy-paste anyone else, no matter how good that person may be in the game. Learn from more experienced players, but do not follow blindly everything they do/say (including myself, of course)  :brock:

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Of course, you always need to consider the context, therefore there is no set-in-stone "rule" when it comes to both FM and real-life football/soccer.

Plus, we all have different approaches to the game in general and tactics in particular. And each of those different approaches can be correct or wrong - depending on the context. I have learned so much from Rashidi and his videos, but my tactical approach - and hence the tactics I create - is/are still different from his. Simply because everyone should play the game the way they feel the most comfortable with - without trying to emulate/copy-paste anyone else, no matter how good that person may be in the game. Learn from more experienced players, but do not follow blindly everything they do/say (including myself, of course)  :brock:

I agree with yours and @Rashidi's post. I think the problem is that when new players or unexperienced tacticians are looking for information, the game doesn't succeed in providing enough detail to grasp all the concepts and their implications. Especially because you can't see every setting on its own but within interaction with many other settings. That makes for a very complex environment (often enhanced when people don't master English or, if they play in their native language, the translation has its shortcomings). Somehow we should try to make it clear that nothing is set in stone, while at the other hand, showing/explaining what combinations do/don't work and why they do/don't work. And eventually even what type of player(s) you need to make that setting work optimally. A sort of tactical guide but where both approaches are discussed (f.e. why regroup can be good when you want a low block and when it doesn't and the reasoning behind it and then also its interaction with other settings). But I'm afraid that would be too big a task AND in the end too big a volume for anyone to handle/read. The next best thing would be to have the game steer players towards that knowledge by assistant manager's advice and even putting exclamation marks next to certain settings to warn players about inconsistencies. It does that already to an extent (advice + making certain selections unavailable when implementing your tactic) but I think there is still more ground to be covered here?

As a counter thought, you don't want all players to be directed to a limited set of tactics. You need that provide that freedom otherwise the tactic forum will be a dull place... It's a fine line SI has to walk and one we as user can only appreciate?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DJ Sir Matthew said:

I think the problem is that when new players or unexperienced tacticians are looking for information, the game doesn't succeed in providing enough detail to grasp all the concepts and their implications

Yes, that's true :thup:

That's why we all eventually end up in the forums looking for information and help. The game is not easy for a novice, but can be made much easier as long as one is willing to learn. If I had not come to these forums, I would still struggle terribly with the game. Therefore, I'll always be hugely grateful to all people who shared their knowledge with me when I was an inexperienced FM player. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

With the full release now being out, I fired up a quick West Brom save to give the 4-4-2 a whirl and boy am I having fun! Despite a sub-par squad (first transfer window disabled, predicted to finish dead last), I'm seeing some beautiful counter-attacking football. So far, the match engine feels very responsive, so perhaps this is the year where Sean Dyche replications can finally shine in all their glory. :D

Some highlights:

 

giphy.gif

 

giphy.gif

 

giphy.gif

 

giphy.gif

 

We're currently sitting eighth in the league with least possession and third most goals scored. Took me a bit of experimenting to settle on a tactic, so the stats are a bit skewed, but from what I've seen so far, I've no doubt low blocks can work very well this year.

 

5cpRyM5.jpg

 

oCFMSpp.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Zemahh said:

With the full release now being out, I fired up a quick West Brom save to give the 4-4-2 a whirl and boy am I having fun! Despite a sub-par squad (first transfer window disabled, predicted to finish dead last), I'm seeing some beautiful counter-attacking football. So far, the match engine feels very responsive, so perhaps this is the year where Sean Dyche replications can finally shine in all their glory. :D

Some highlights:

 

giphy.gif

 

giphy.gif

 

giphy.gif

 

giphy.gif

 

We're currently sitting eighth in the league with least possession and third most goals scored. Took me a bit of experimenting to settle on a tactic, so the stats are a bit skewed, but from what I've seen so far, I've no doubt low blocks can work very well this year.

 

5cpRyM5.jpg

 

oCFMSpp.jpg

fantastic goals those, great to see. How did you set up your 442 out of interest? I've been enjoying two banks fo four massively this year! 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

How did you set up your 442 out of interest?

Fqd06Ro.jpg

 

I experimented with Positive/Attacking, but although they can produce some great gung-ho football, the problem then becomes having four players on Very Attacking Mentalities, which means we were losing the ball a lot. To counter that, I could turn WMs from Attack to Support, but I really want them making early forward runs often, so that wasn't an option. I've also tried using them as Wingers, but I've got an issue with Stay Wider instruction being hard-coded; CMs were often lacking close support when the counter wasn't on. Besides that, we very rarely actually lack width and if so, WBs will Run Wide With Ball even on Defend duty (they still overlap quite frequently).

Also, interesting to see how deep the 4-4-2 can be on its own, without having to lower the LoE:

 

Zu0016t.jpg

 

So far, it's going good. Robson-Kanu is having the time of his life. :cool:

 

QWbHKB0.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...