FM21 - Low Block possible?

[beverage1982]

6 hours ago, Zemahh said:

 

I experimented with Positive/Attacking, but although they can produce some great gung-ho football, the problem then becomes having four players on Very Attacking Mentalities, which means we were losing the ball a lot. To counter that, I could turn WMs from Attack to Support, but I really want them making early forward runs often, so that wasn't an option. I've also tried using them as Wingers, but I've got an issue with Stay Wider instruction being hard-coded; CMs were often lacking close support when the counter wasn't on. Besides that, we very rarely actually lack width and if so, WBs will Run Wide With Ball even on Defend duty (they still overlap quite frequently).

Also, interesting to see how deep the 4-4-2 can be on its own, without having to lower the LoE:

 

 

So far, it's going good. Robson-Kanu is having the time of his life. 

 

Fantastic. I'm playing something similarly structured with villa but more of a 4411. I too am playing a Highline on a counter tactic (thanks largely to this thread) and amazed at the low positioning too. 

 

The old adage that your formation is your defensive shape (in FM terms anyway) I guess rings true?

[Enzo_Francescoli]

On 20/11/2020 at 23:38, Experienced Defender said:

Any block is defined primarily by the Line of engagement, not by Defensive line. So a low block logically utilizes a lower or much lower LOE.

Are you positive that's the case in the game though? Because whenever you raise your defensive line, the LOE automatically goes higher, too. For instance, a higher d-line with a lower LOE is essentially mid-block when one observes the plaqyers on that image the slider gives you. Like this:

 

 

This means I have five players who will engage in the middle of the pitch. The DM will stay just in front of the defenders. That, in my book, is a mid-block. The eye-test seems to confirm this: using a 433 with those settings results in my players starting their press once the opponent is on our half.

Moreover, I would think that a low-block, by definition, warrants a deep d-line. Defenders staying 30 meters from their goal is no low-block, at least in the classic sense of the word.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Are you positive that's the case in the game though? Because whenever you raise your defensive line, the LOE automatically goes higher, too

How do you mean "automatically" (the bolded part)? I am still on FM20 though, so maybe something has changed in FM21.

 

2 hours ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

For instance, a higher d-line with a lower LOE is essentially mid-block when one observes the plaqyers on that image the slider gives you

I would rather call it a fairly compact low block (or mid-to-low block, if you will). 

 

2 hours ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

This means I have five players who will engage in the middle of the pitch. The DM will stay just in front of the defenders. That, in my book, is a mid-block. The eye-test seems to confirm this: using a 433 with those settings results in my players starting their press once the opponent is on our half.

Moreover, I would think that a low-block, by definition, warrants a deep d-line. Defenders staying 30 meters from their goal is no low-block, at least in the classic sense of the word

Okay, let's say that you are right. But at the end of the day, how we will call this or that type of defensive block is essentially irrelevant. Because the only thing that really matters is which combo optimally suits your players. Everything else is purely theoretic IMHO. 

Keep also in mind that I intentionally looked to simplify my explanation as much as possible so that it would be easier for less experienced players to understand some basic principles. 

[witticism]

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

How do you mean "automatically"

Exactly as described, moving the Defensive Line adjusts the Line of Engagement. In this case "pushes" it up, but it can be "pulled" down if you lower your Defensive Line.

Moving the Line of Engagement does not result in the Defensive Line (UI at least) moving on the display.

 

[Bunkerossian]

On 19/11/2020 at 04:27, kidd_05_u2 said:

I believe it makes sense when you are playing certain formations that can be left vulnerable when a defender presses at the wrong time. For example, a flat 4-4-2 can be easily destroyed if your central midfielders break shape and your wide midfielders are not narrow to provide support. I've tried flat 4-4-2 with less pressing and did well. You give the opposition opportunity to get forward so you can get them on the counter, while also maintaining a good shape that is not easy to break. It is not like the players will be completely passive when defending with less pressing.

Thank you. I never was sure when is less urgent pressing supposed to be used.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, witticism said:

Exactly as described, moving the Defensive Line adjusts the Line of Engagement. In this case "pushes" it up, but it can be "pulled" down if you lower your Defensive Line.

Moving the Line of Engagement does not result in the Defensive Line (UI at least) moving on the display

Okay, so if you have both DL and LOE set to standard and then you push only the DL to higher - LOE automatically becomes higher as well (in terms of the label)? Or I perhaps misunderstood your comment? 

[witticism]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, so if you have both DL and LOE set to standard and then you push only the DL to higher - LOE automatically becomes higher as well (in terms of the label)? Or I perhaps misunderstood your comment? 

It remains labeled "standard" LOE but physically the line is positioned in a different part of the pitch (in the UI representation) than if you had not changed the defensive line.

It doesnt force change of phase (from low to standard to high and vice versa) but it adjusts the position such in this example, a standard LOE will be slightly higher with a high defensive line, while remaining standard:

Edited November 29, 2020 by witticism
added gif

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, witticism said:

It remains labeled "standard" LOE but physically the line is positioned in a different part of the pitch (in the UI representation) than if you had not changed the defensive line.

It doesnt force change of phase (from low to standard to high and vice versa) but it adjusts the position such in this example, a standard LOE will be slightly higher with a high defensive line, while remaining standard

Okay, I now understand what you mean 

[witticism]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, I now understand what you mean 

I thought that's what the other poster meant but ultimately it's easier to explain with a gif of that specific UI in action.

[Enzo_Francescoli]

On 29/11/2020 at 16:44, witticism said:

I thought that's what the other poster meant but ultimately it's easier to explain with a gif of that specific UI in action.

Exactly what I meant, thanks for the gif. It does explain it better.

 

On 28/11/2020 at 22:04, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, let's say that you are right. But at the end of the day, how we will call this or that type of defensive block is essentially irrelevant. Because the only thing that really matters is which combo optimally suits your players. Everything else is purely theoretic IMHO. 

Keep also in mind that I intentionally looked to simplify my explanation as much as possible so that it would be easier for less experienced players to understand some basic principles. 

I asked only to make sure what exactly constitutes a low-block in the game. There are a number of active posts about setting up such a system and I'm not certain it's exclusively about how one sets the LOE.

[Shib0]

On 24/11/2020 at 23:16, Zemahh said:

With the full release now being out, I fired up a quick West Brom save to give the 4-4-2 a whirl and boy am I having fun! Despite a sub-par squad (first transfer window disabled, predicted to finish dead last), I'm seeing some beautiful counter-attacking football. So far, the match engine feels very responsive, so perhaps this is the year where Sean Dyche replications can finally shine in all their glory. 

Some highlights:

 

 

 

 

 

We're currently sitting eighth in the league with least possession and third most goals scored. Took me a bit of experimenting to settle on a tactic, so the stats are a bit skewed, but from what I've seen so far, I've no doubt low blocks can work very well this year.

 

 

 

On 25/11/2020 at 09:48, Zemahh said:

 

I experimented with Positive/Attacking, but although they can produce some great gung-ho football, the problem then becomes having four players on Very Attacking Mentalities, which means we were losing the ball a lot. To counter that, I could turn WMs from Attack to Support, but I really want them making early forward runs often, so that wasn't an option. I've also tried using them as Wingers, but I've got an issue with Stay Wider instruction being hard-coded; CMs were often lacking close support when the counter wasn't on. Besides that, we very rarely actually lack width and if so, WBs will Run Wide With Ball even on Defend duty (they still overlap quite frequently).

Also, interesting to see how deep the 4-4-2 can be on its own, without having to lower the LoE:

 

 

So far, it's going good. Robson-Kanu is having the time of his life. 

 

These goals look great, are wms inner or outer footed?

[Experienced Defender]

@dannyfc Sorry mate, but your question has nothing to do with the topic. In fact, it's the exact opposite of it. 

New topics for discussion are always welcome, but each topic requires its own different thread. So you can always start one and receive feedback there 

[Zemahh]

On 07/12/2020 at 12:11, Shib0 said:

These goals look great, are wms inner or outer footed?

I used classic Wingers, so left-footer on the left and right-footer on the right side.

Keep in mind though, the tactic isn't meant to be plug and play. In the end we finished 8th, but the results were quite inconsistent at times. It's not something I'd use long term (especially as my reputation improves and teams stop giving us space), but I definitely saw some sweet counters in this first season.

[YAMS]

My interpretation of what a low block would be what Spurs did to Arsenal at the weekend. I lower or possibly much lower LOE with a standard or lower DL. To get this to work in FM20 seems pretty impossible as the high lines & possession are far too op. 

[thedlux]

Good stuff Zemahh,,  what software you using there? looks great

[Jack722]

I've had reasonable success with a low block in FM21. I play a few touch saves to experiment with different tactics, and while I haven't won the league or anything, I've overachieved the board expectation using a combination of a low block tactic for all games against the big six, and a mid block for the rest of the games.

 

 

I think if you actually want to recreate a low block from irl, you have to use a low dline otherwise you won't be defending deep enough. I don't think it's right to claim that a tactic using intense pressing or a higher / standard line is a low block. Just look how deep Chelsea were defending against liverpool after the red card a few weeks back. They were basically on the edge of their own box the whole time while restricted Liverpool to half chances at most.

This is the preset that I use:

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Jack722

[Zemahh]

6 hours ago, thedlux said:

Good stuff Zemahh,,  what software you using there? looks great

I use ShareX. Works well with my potato PC.