Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?

[GreenTriangle]

1 hour ago, Flinsenberger said:

Anyone can decrease the difficulty of the game very well, by playing standard tactics or buying known wonderkids after choosing a rich club. 

This argument does not work.

The game needs a realistic level of difficulty. When you have an average squad for the league, and play standard tactics, while not doing anything special, you should end up middle of the league 6 out of 10 seasons, fight for relegation 2 out of 10 seasons, fight for international games/playoffs 2 out of 10 seasons. 

That should be the standard. If you end up competing for playoffs 6 out of 10 times, while being average 4 times and never fighting for relegation, something is wrong. 

When you want to have an easier game, you can make your manager International level, go to a rich club, buy known wonderkids, etc.

... And anyone can increase the difficulty of the game very well, by not playing standard tactics or not buying known wonderkids after choosing a rich club. Or using countless other available tools. This argument ... work ?

And why can't some experienced players (who think the game is too easy) choose those tools that give them a high level of realism? They have those tools, it's enough to just choose the ones they want.

Hmmm. So, a passionate and experienced player wants the game to be calibrated according to his possibilities, forgetting that there are many other players who do not play much and/or do not have much experience. But if this player is so experienced, why doesn't he know how to calibrate his game in such a way that it 'll be more difficult? Why should other less experienced players make various changes but he, the experienced player, should be able to play without making any change ?

Edited November 20, 2020 by GreenTriangle

[Broken_Record]

Does anyone actually have an example of human player underachieving in this game? 

[Junkhead]

5 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

... And anyone can increase the difficulty of the game very well, by not playing standard tactics or not buying known wonderkids after choosing a rich club. Or using countless other available tools. This argument ... work ?

And why can't some experienced players (who think the game is too easy) choose those tools that give them a high level of realism? They have those tools, it's enough to just choose the ones they want.

Hmmm. So, a passionate and experienced player wants the game to be calibrated according to his possibilities, forgetting that there are many other players who do not play much and/or do not have much experience. But if this player is so experienced, why doesn't he know how to calibrate his game in such a way that it 'll be more difficult? Why should other less experienced players make various changes but he, the experienced player, should be able to play without making any change ?

And this is the exact point.

There are multiple threads on this forum every year in respect of REALISM.  People saying the match engine isn't realistic.  That the transfer system isn't realistic.  That they get unrealistic offers when starting unemployed. All sorts.

Yet the second anyone argues that a tactic being used isn't realistic, the conversation collapses.

Port Vale, for example, cannot play a high line gegenpress tactic in real life.  They don't have the players for it.  Upon realising this, their manager is likely to adapt to a tactic more fitting to their situation.  He doesn't go on the internet kicking off about it, or to his board asking for them to sign world class athletes from the highest level who can play in this system.  If he did - rightly - they would sack him.

This is the problem with this game.  The user is able to get success at the lowest levels with an OP tactic that is completely unrealistic.  Then, instead of acknowledging it as an unrealistic input, the user kicks off and says they should be able to play how they want.

The game should eat you alive for trying gegenpress tactics in league two.  Simple.  It doesn't.  That's the issue.

[Junkhead]

2 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

Does anyone actually have an example of human player underachieving in this game? 

What good will that do?

Are we saying the game is too hard now?

Or is this just more "evidence" that the game is easy?

The only important evidence is saves which can be sent to the developer for them to fix it.

[-Jef-]

2 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

Does anyone actually have an example of human player underachieving in this game? 

Me. I got fired from Man Utd post on last FM. This year I almost got fired from my HNK Hajduk post. But when I turned it around and filled holes in the squad I am on 20 game unbeaten streak.

[VP.]

9 minutes ago, ma3 said:

this thread is so f'd up, you've got the sensible people trying to report and bring attention to the fact that there's a problem with the AI, and/or defensive AI, strikers scoring too many goals etc, totally unrealistic results happening without intentionally trying to exploit. Then you have a bunch of people crying and begging it to stay that way and that if we have a problem with it we should avoid doing...things? What the heck people, it's pretty clear there's an issue with this, stop pretending that people are trying to flex or something and actually react to the arguments and points w're putting forward. I suck at FM, I only played 2020, and 2021 now, I shouldn't be absolutely anhiliating every league with an team , I done no transfers and got salford to championship back to back anhiliuating the league and coming strong first, all I did was choose gengenpress and 4231, please acknolwedge there's some imbalance, it's not our responsibility to avoid interacting with the simulations imbalanced systems it's on the developer to fine tune these areas.

So you want to play attacking football but then complain when you win games doing so? I honestly do not believe you annihilated the opposition with as easy as you say you did either.

Let's look at it another way then, if someone is finding the game too hard, instead of trying XYZ they may try ABC to help them because they know XYZ is not enjoyable. Why is it that people who apparently find the game too easy are not willing to try ABC and instead continue with XYZ over and over but complain about it at the same time?

And the only crying and begging I see is coming from you 😂 

[Junkhead]

6 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

Does anyone actually have an example of human player underachieving in this game? 

According to steam, 27.9% of players are yet to win a game on this version.  A percentage of those won't have played an actual game yet, of course.  Impossible to tell how many.

[gio]

I've been following this thread for a few days now. I used to play CM/FM a lot, but have not for about ten years (I used to post a little bit here, but it seems the forums been upgraded and now all my old posts have gone ). For whatever reason, I'm back into it again this year, and have already purchased FM21. I'd really like to be able to enjoy this game again, so to any of you that are finding the game too easy, please upload the PKMs and saves so we can get the issue sorted: nothing will change if you don't!

Edited November 20, 2020 by gio

[RandomGuy.]

All this thread has done is make me think up potential challenge ideas.

Like a PCA challenge. You can only sign players on pre-contract agreements, you cannot renew a players contract until his final 6 months, and if a player requests a transfer unless you renew his deal, you must accept the transfer request.

Be challenging the higher up you are id imagine?

[GreenTriangle]

13 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

The game should eat you alive for trying gegenpress tactics in league two.  Simple.  It doesn't.  That's the issue.

?????

Seriously, I don't understand why anyone would be horrified by the idea that "X-the-casual-player" could win the Premier League by playing with a weak team and without too much stress. Why wouldn't X have the "right" to win the Premier League by playing, let's say, only when he has enough time and without bothering with complicated strategies?

Edited November 20, 2020 by GreenTriangle

[Junkhead]

5 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

?????

Seriously, I don't understand why anyone would be horrified by the idea that "X-the-casual-player" could win the Premier League by playing with a weak team and without too much stress. Why wouldn't X have the "right" to win the Premier League by playing, say, only when he has enough time and without bothering with complicated strategies?

1- Show me a team in English football history that has climbed up through the leagues using a gegenpress tactic.

2- Show me a team which has climbed up through the leagues in any country and then complained about how easy it was.

3- Show me a single team in League 2 this season - or last - who is successful using a gegenpress tactic.

4- Long Ball & direct counter attack - the most commonly used tactics at lower levels in English football - are not "more complicated" than a high pressing, high intensity tactic.  That's why they're the most commonly used at that level - the players aren't as good.

 

If you want realism then that's how it is, simply.

If you don't, then with the game as it currently is, it's going to be easy because Gegenpress is overpowered.

 

I'm not saying people don't "have the right" to play how they want.  But it is clear that people aren't happy steamrollering through the leagues with Salford on a gegenpress tactic because then they are posting here moaning about how easy the game is.  So here are the options;

1- Don't do it

2- Upload a save & let the developers have a look.

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Junkhead
spelling

[GreenTriangle]

And ... who forces all players to use gegenpressing?

[Junkhead]

1 minute ago, GreenTriangle said:

And ... who forces all players to use gegenpressing?

What?

This is literally the argument I've been having for 48 hours.

That is literally the argument I'm presenting to you now.

No one.

Yet the vast majority of the people on this thread who are complaining about the game being too easy are using it.  

 

If you're struggling with the game being too easy hammering through the leagues using an op tactic, then stop using it.  No one forces you to use it.

This is EXACTLY what I am saying.

[karanhsingh]

12 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

1- Show me a team in English football history that has climbed up through the leagues using a gegenpress tactic.

2- Show me a team which has climbed up through the leagues in any country and then complained about how easy it was.

3- Show me a single team in League 2 this season - or last - who is successful using a gegenpress tactic.

4- Long Ball & direct counter attack - the most commonly used tactics at lower levels in English football - are not "more complicated" than a high pressing, high intensity tactic.  That's why they're the most commonly used at that level - the players aren't as good.

 

If you want realism then that's how it is, simply.

If you don't, then with the game as it currently is, it's going to be easy because Gegenpress is overpowered.

 

I'm not saying people don't "have the right" to play how they want.  But it is clear that people aren't happy steamrollering through the leagues with Salford on a gegenpress tactic because then they are posting here moaning about how easy the game is.  So here are the options;

1- Don't do it

2- Upload a save & let the developers have a look.

 

RBL has pretty much done that in real life. FYI, gone are the days when teams lower down the leagues only play primitive football. A lot of them at least try to play good football, with high pressing and quick passing, etc.

Also, FYI. Gegenpressing is over-powered in real life. And that is reflected in the game. This is the reason why most of the top teams have reverted to some or the other form of it - Liverpool, Bayern, Man City, Real Madrid, etc. Because it works.

Gegenpressing has been the death of top players like Ozil and Gotze, because they cannot fit into a high pressing system. It works IRL, and it works in the game. As it should.

EDIT - I should add that it's not just the top teams. Why is a club like Southampton doing so well and punching way above their weight. That's right, Gegenpressing.

Edited November 20, 2020 by karanhsingh

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb karanhsingh:

RBL has pretty much done that in real life. FYI, gone are the days when teams lower down the leagues only play primitive football. A lot of them at least try to play good football, with high pressing and quick passing, etc.

Also, FYI. Gegenpressing is over-powered in real life. And that is reflected in the game. This is the reason why most of the top teams have reverted to some or the other form of it - Liverpool, Bayern, Man City, Real Madrid, etc. Because it works.

Gegenpressing has been the death of top players like Ozil and Gotze, because they cannot fit into a high pressing system. It works IRL, and it works in the game. As it should.

EDIT - I should add that it's not just the top teams. Why is a club like Southampton doing so well and punching way above their weight. That's right, Gegenpressing.

wow! I honestly never looked it in that way. Thank you for this!

I mean RBL was an exception, with all that money and Poulsen, Forsberg in second or even third bundesliga....

Edited November 20, 2020 by Daveincid

[karanhsingh]

Arteta would rather leave 350k Ozil out of his squad because he cannot fit into a high pressing tactic, than change the way he wants to play IRL.

[dannysheard]

28 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

And this is the exact point.

There are multiple threads on this forum every year in respect of REALISM.  People saying the match engine isn't realistic.  That the transfer system isn't realistic.  That they get unrealistic offers when starting unemployed. All sorts.

Yet the second anyone argues that a tactic being used isn't realistic, the conversation collapses.

Port Vale, for example, cannot play a high line gegenpress tactic in real life.  They don't have the players for it.  Upon realising this, their manager is likely to adapt to a tactic more fitting to their situation.  He doesn't go on the internet kicking off about it, or to his board asking for them to sign world class athletes from the highest level who can play in this system.  If he did - rightly - they would sack him.

This is the problem with this game.  The user is able to get success at the lowest levels with an OP tactic that is completely unrealistic.  Then, instead of acknowledging it as an unrealistic input, the user kicks off and says they should be able to play how they want.

The game should eat you alive for trying gegenpress tactics in league two.  Simple.  It doesn't.  That's the issue.

There are a number of issues going on here, but there are definitely at last two separate parties in those that find it too easy:

 - People that use gamey tactics (three forwards on attack) or inappropriate tactics for their team's level (gegenpressing with Port Vale) and overachieve

 - People that don't do this, and already go to the other extreme of making the game harder for themselves, such as low reputation, turning off transfer window, no manual scouting, only selling players for realistic prices (not selling Lallana to Arsenal for £50m cash as you could in FM19 or FM20) but still overachieve

I'm definitely in the second pot. And I promise I'll upload pkms when the proper game comes out. I haven't bothered with a save on the beta as I read the initial feedback and realised this wasn't a game for me yet.

[dannysheard]

33 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

And this is the exact point.

There are multiple threads on this forum every year in respect of REALISM.  People saying the match engine isn't realistic.  That the transfer system isn't realistic.  That they get unrealistic offers when starting unemployed. All sorts.

Yet the second anyone argues that a tactic being used isn't realistic, the conversation collapses.

Port Vale, for example, cannot play a high line gegenpress tactic in real life.  They don't have the players for it.  Upon realising this, their manager is likely to adapt to a tactic more fitting to their situation.  He doesn't go on the internet kicking off about it, or to his board asking for them to sign world class athletes from the highest level who can play in this system.  If he did - rightly - they would sack him.

This is the problem with this game.  The user is able to get success at the lowest levels with an OP tactic that is completely unrealistic.  Then, instead of acknowledging it as an unrealistic input, the user kicks off and says they should be able to play how they want.

The game should eat you alive for trying gegenpress tactics in league two.  Simple.  It doesn't.  That's the issue.

I think the difficulty with this argument is that going to a seemingly gamey tactic (gegenpressing and three up top) is something that is legitimate for any team to do in the last 20 minutes of a game they're losing or drawing at home, so if nothing else, even a player playing sensibly will be gaming the ME for a significant proportion of the time. 

In real life, you'd get countered by someone like Utd, but on the game you'd almost certainly get a goal.

[Junkhead]

14 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

RBL has pretty much done that in real life. FYI, gone are the days when teams lower down the leagues only play primitive football. A lot of them at least try to play good football, with high pressing and quick passing, etc.

Also, FYI. Gegenpressing is over-powered in real life. And that is reflected in the game. This is the reason why most of the top teams have reverted to some or the other form of it - Liverpool, Bayern, Man City, Real Madrid, etc. Because it works.

Gegenpressing has been the death of top players like Ozil and Gotze, because they cannot fit into a high pressing system. It works IRL, and it works in the game. As it should.

EDIT - I should add that it's not just the top teams. Why is a club like Southampton doing so well and punching way above their weight. That's right, Gegenpressing.

You're not wrong in that teams lower down are trying to play better football. I'm not sure your example of RBL was a good one though, for obvious reasons.

The team I support at English Championship level has a lot of technically good footballers. Yet we consistently get torn apart by more physical sides even as high up as the second tier.

Completely appreciate that not everyone in league two plays kick and rush. However, no one has ever gone from League 2 to the Premier League in consecutive seasons that I'm aware of, Gegenpressing or not.

The majority of players posting on this thread who have done so are using Gegenpressing. Therefore the school of thought that it is overpowered on the game is likely fair.

It can't really be "overpowered" in real life, can it? It's successful. Not overpowered.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Junkhead
Spelling

[Broken_Record]

23 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

?????

Seriously, I don't understand why anyone would be horrified by the idea that "X-the-casual-player" could win the Premier League by playing with a weak team and without too much stress. Why wouldn't X have the "right" to win the Premier League by playing, let's say, only when he has enough time and without bothering with complicated strategies?

Because this is a certain indication that the difficulty level of the game is too low. 

This "complicated strategies" argument is a really bad one as none of the Football Manager's features are not that difficult to use that you would actually have to use lot of time or do anything complicated to do things well with them. The developers of the game have made most of the features really user-friendly during the last couple of years. Compare the tactics system for example to the ones that we had before FM 2010. The old tactics and training systems where the ones where you could spend a lot of times and maybe also have those complicated strategies. None of the new features are like this and that is mainly a good thing.

Making the game features more user-friendly was the first step. The next and logical step should be that the difficulty level of the game would be increased significantly, which would force more people to actually use these features and heck, maybe even demand human players to do some sensible things within the gameplay to be successful.

[Junkhead]

1 minute ago, dannysheard said:

I think the difficulty with this argument is that going to a seemingly gamey tactic (gegenpressing and three up top) is something that is legitimate for any team to do in the last 20 minutes of a game they're losing or drawing at home, so if nothing else, even a player playing sensibly will be gaming the ME for a significant proportion of the time. 

In real life, you'd get countered by someone like Utd, but on the game you'd almost certainly get a goal.

Yep, and this is where people have been bickering but in reality we're all in the same camp.

I want it to be a challenge for you whatever tactic you use, and I am sure you want the same for me. Only by sharing our findings with the Devs will we get to that stage. 

Thanks for your uploads when they come, mate - will help all of us.

👍

[Lempicka]

I wonder if the exploit tactic users have started uploading their PKMs yet?

[karanhsingh]

2 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

You're not wrong in that teams lower down are trying to play better football. I'm not sure your example of RBL was a good one though, for obvious reasons.

The team I support at English Championship level has a lot of technically good footballers. Yet we consistently get torn apart by more physical sides even as high up as the lower tier.

Completely appreciate that not everyone in league two plays kick and rush. However, no one has ever gone from League 2 to the Premier League in consecutive seasons that I'm aware of, Gegenpressing or not.

The majority of players posting on this thread who have done so are using Gegenpressing. Therefore the school of thought that it is overpowered on the game is likely fair.

It can't really be "overpowered" in real life, can it? It's successful. Not overpowered.

Yes the thing IRL is that it's not easy to get it to work. It takes time and the right players, etc. That's why you get a result like 0-9 against Leicester with Saints. But once it works, it's very, very hard to play against.

I honestly believe it is OP in real life, I have never in 25 years of watching football seen ALL top teams gravitate towards ONE style of playing football, simply because it is SO effective. You used to have Barca playing tiki-taka, United with wing play, Juventus playing catenaccio, etc. Now everyone is trying some variant of Gegenpressing. Even Barca after the debacle last season. It is highly, highly effective and as close to an OP tactic as I have seen IRL.

I am not saying that the game is not easier at all than real life, but end of the day it should be. You should be able to get a team from league 2 to the EPL in a few years if you play your cards right. That's what makes it fun after all.

[Junkhead]

15 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

It works IRL, and it works in the game. As it should.

It should for the top teams who are equipped for it, yes.

Do you think it should result in players going from League 2 to Premier League in consecutive seasons though?

[GreenTriangle]

5 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

(...)

 - People that don't do this, and already go to the other extreme of making the game harder for themselves, such as low reputation, turning off transfer window, no manual scouting, only selling players for realistic prices (not selling Lallana to Arsenal for £50m cash as you could in FM19 or FM20) but still overachieve

I'm definitely in the second pot. And I promise I'll upload pkms when the proper game comes out. I haven't bothered with a save on the beta as I read the initial feedback and realised this wasn't a game for me yet.

Which proves that you are an extremely good player. After all, even extremely difficult games end up after a while seem "easy" for very good players. However, one question: did you try to play using a Catenaccio-based tactic? In my opinion, any tactic derived from Catenaccio is extremely difficult to use.

[swippy]

So is gegenpress an exploit tactic or should everyone use it? I'm confused.

Maybe we should take away the pressing urgency settings altogether so everyone is using the same instructions.

Edited November 20, 2020 by swippy

[GreenTriangle]

7 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

Making the game features more user-friendly was the first step. The next and logical step should be that the difficulty level of the game would be increased significantly, which would force more people to actually use these features and heck, maybe even demand human players to do some sensible things within the gameplay to be successful.

That's it ! Someone has to "force" the players. Why build our own levels of difficulty? No, some people say that someone has to come and "force" us to do this and that. Seriously, is that what we want?

[swippy]

I'm absolutely crap at the game even though I've got thousands of hours on it since FM11. FM21 is the first one where I haven't had to put any effort into managing my team in order to win a lot.

In previous FMs I would plan my training schedules, scouting assignments, build my squad over time and adjust my tactics in every match according to opposition reports and analysis. I could spend hours looking at match analysis and build my tactics. It was so much fun because it felt like I was making a difference with my efforts.

In FM21 you just need to build one tactic that works from day one and if you do your teamtalks correctly you will have 75% win rate on pretty much any team.

[Junkhead]

12 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

That's it ! Someone has to "force" the players. Why build our own levels of difficulty? No, some people say that someone has to come and "force" us to do this and that. Seriously, is that what we want?

Do we want to take some collective ownership and responsibility towards our own enjoyment?

Is that your question?

Some people do and some people don't appears to be the general consensus.

I am happy to. Others aren't. 

Personally if I'm not having fun, I try to find a way to have fun.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Junkhead
Context

[rp1966]

21 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

I honestly believe it is OP in real life, I have never in 25 years of watching football seen ALL top teams gravitate towards ONE style of playing football, simply because it is SO effective. You used to have Barca playing tiki-taka, United with wing play, Juventus playing catenaccio, etc. Now everyone is trying some variant of Gegenpressing. Even Barca after the debacle last season. It is highly, highly effective and as close to an OP tactic as I have seen IRL.

 

It's an interesting trend. But it's not unknown for tactics to sweep through the football world as their success leads most teams to adopt them. It's certainly happened a few times in football's history (obligatory mention of 'Inverting the Pyramid' here), but not in recent times.

The question for gegenpress IRL is how quickly some tactical genius comes up with a consistent method for nullifying it.  

 

[Christmas]

6 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

 

 

 

Personally if I'm not having fun, I try to find a way to have fun.

Me too. In this case, its by trying to encourage the developers towards making the game better.

[rp1966]

24 minutes ago, swippy said:

So is gegenpress an exploit tactic or should everyone use it? I'm confused.

Maybe we should take away the pressing urgency settings altogether so everyone is using the same instructions.

A bit of both. It's highly effective so lots of teams can benefit from playing it. IRL most teams don't have the players who can sustain it for long periods in a game, so can't play it as their 'go to' tactic.  It's OP in game because although fatigue has been tweaked, it's still too easy for teams to play gegenpress for long periods when they don't have the physicals to do it.

As always it's a tuning issue.  

 

[karanhsingh]

6 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

It's an interesting trend. But it's not unknown for tactics to sweep through the football world as their success leads most teams to adopt them. It's certainly happened a few times in football's history (obligatory mention of 'Inverting the Pyramid' here), but not in recent times.

The question for gegenpress IRL is how quickly some tactical genius comes up with a consistent method for nullifying it.  

I hope so because I am getting a bit bored of it to be honest.

TIFO did an interesting video recently on how to beat Liverpool.

[dannysheard]

36 minutes ago, Lempicka said:

I wonder if the exploit tactic users have started uploading their PKMs yet?

You remind me of the thick kids at school that laughed at me because I was in the top class

#winningatlife

[CM]

1 hour ago, Viking said:

I'll say it again: FM20 was football management on nightmare mode for me, I hardly won any matches. With the same tactics I used in FM20, I can go almost undefeated in the FM21 beta. I know nothing about tactics. I am useless at FM. If the game is easy for me, the game *is* easy.

Note I don't say *too easy".

This. I mean, I was getting wonderkids and good young players on FM 20 saves but never that felt that the game was too easy in my first season. Again, FM 20 had significant flaws in the way that the game was somehow trying to balance things in a very odd way but surely finding somme middle ground should not be that difficult?

Edited November 20, 2020 by CM

[gio]

8 minutes ago, CM said:

This. I mean, I was getting wonderkids and good young players on FM 20 saves but never that felt that the game was too easy in my first season. Again, FM 20 had significant flaws in the way that the game was somehow trying to balance things in a very odd way but surely finding somme middle ground should not be that difficult?

Were either / both (i.e @CM and @Viking)  of you using some form of gegenpress and/or attacking mentality with 3/4 forwards?

Regardless, both of your cases are concerning: can I please ask you to upload your save game or PKMs to help SI identify the issue? I really don't want to have a game that feels like there is no jeopardy or that requires little effort! 

EDIT: Sorry, @CM, I see you already have uploaded your pkms/save! 

Edited November 20, 2020 by gio

[DementedHammer]

55 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

However, no one has ever gone from League 2 to the Premier League in consecutive seasons that I'm aware of, Gegenpressing or not. 

The closest that I can think of was Cambridge United going from Division 4 to 5th in Division 2 in successive seasons. 

However, as I remember it, they did that with extremely direct (even for the time), route one football. 

[craiigman]

Do people really have that much success with gegenpress? I’ve tried using the default gegenpress tactic a number of times with different clubs. All that I end up with is 25+ shots, very few if any CCC, and them ending up scoring at the other end.

[CM]

23 minutes ago, gio said:

Were either / both (i.e @CM and @Viking)  of you using some form of gegenpress and/or attacking mentality with 3/4 forwards?

Regardless, both of your cases are concerning: can I please ask you to upload your save game or PKMs to help SI identify the issue? I really don't want to have a game that feels like there is no jeopardy or that requires little effort! 

I posted screenshots of my tactic in another thread I believe. It's gegenpress but I tweaked and reduced intensity, LOE, mentality and other stuff. In this season when I was rotating, got battered by Leicester 5-0 away from home in Carabao Cup but was not bothering to go through. I have used this tactic since FM 18 with tweaks here and there but overall have not changed much. FM 19 was relatively easy one, but FM 20 was oddly difficult. What I want is some kind of balance between two.

Edited November 20, 2020 by CM

[Junkhead]

6 minutes ago, DementedHammer said:

The closest that I can think of was Cambridge United going from Division 4 to 5th in Division 2 in successive seasons. 

However, as I remember it, they did that with extremely direct (even for the time), route one football. 

Yep - Dion Dublin up top and the ball lumped up to him ad infinitum.

And then he left and they fell away again.

[Junkhead]

38 minutes ago, Christmas said:

Me too. In this case, its by trying to encourage the developers towards making the game better.

Brill - this is what we should all be doing by uploading saves and pkms as they have requested 👍

[iAlwaysWin]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

1- Show me a team in English football history that has climbed up through the leagues using a gegenpress tactic.

2- Show me a team which has climbed up through the leagues in any country and then complained about how easy it was.

3- Show me a single team in League 2 this season - or last - who is successful using a gegenpress tactic.

4- Long Ball & direct counter attack - the most commonly used tactics at lower levels in English football - are not "more complicated" than a high pressing, high intensity tactic.  That's why they're the most commonly used at that level - the players aren't as good.

 

If you want realism then that's how it is, simply.

If you don't, then with the game as it currently is, it's going to be easy because Gegenpress is overpowered.

 

I'm not saying people don't "have the right" to play how they want.  But it is clear that people aren't happy steamrollering through the leagues with Salford on a gegenpress tactic because then they are posting here moaning about how easy the game is.  So here are the options;

1- Don't do it

2- Upload a save & let the developers have a look.

 

Gretna and Livingston from Scotland rised through the leagues and found it really easy, Gegenpress is just a name giving to a way of playing, it wasnt even a thing 10 years ago.

What would be the point in creating a tactic in the preset that doesnt work at any level?

[Lempicka]

14 minutes ago, DementedHammer said:

The closest that I can think of was Cambridge United going from Division 4 to 5th in Division 2 in successive seasons. 

However, as I remember it, they did that with extremely direct (even for the time), route one football. 

John Toshack did 3 promotions with Swansea in 4 seasons, getting to the top flight (then Division 1) in 1981.

[Lempicka]

33 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

You remind me of the thick kids at school that laughed at me because I was in the top class

#winningatlife

I seriously doubt you've ever been top at anything - apart from FM (obviously)

Have you uploaded your PKMs yet?

[iAlwaysWin]

Just now, Lempicka said:

John Toshack did 3 promotions with Swansea in 4 seasons, getting to the top flight (then Division 1) in 1981.

Yeah also maybe not staring from the bottom but Forest went from the equivalent of the Championship to the Premiership, then won it first season promoted then won the Champions League the year after, so anomalies do happen in football.

[oblongata21]

17 minutes ago, craiigman said:

Do people really have that much success with gegenpress? I’ve tried using the default gegenpress tactic a number of times with different clubs. All that I end up with is 25+ shots, very few if any CCC, and them ending up scoring at the other end.

I didnt have any success until i actually changed from gegenpress to wing play with Las Palmas

[Junkhead]

Just now, iAlwaysWin said:

Gretna and Livingston from Scotland rised through the leagues and found it really easy, Gegenpress is just a name giving to a way of playing, it wasnt even a thing 10 years ago.

What would be the point in creating a tactic in the preset that doesnt work at any level?

There wouldn't be a point, and that is not at all what I am suggesting.

Livingston did this by spending well above their means and ended up relegated a number of divisions and in administration.

Gretna is another poor example because they were heavily financially backed and when the backer was not longer there they went bust.

I also have no idea what type of football they played in the fourth and third tiers. Do you? (Genuine question - I am interested).

It is quite telling that the three specific examples given so far have all been extreme cases involving massive financial backing.

Gegenpress is a commonly used tactic now in world football. The issue we have here is that some users are saying that when they use it, things are too easy. I'm saying that shouldn't be the case and explaining why.

Are you saying it should be easy? Again, genuine question, because I don't feel like I am getting your point.

[Christmas]

11 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Brill - this is what we should all be doing by uploading saves and pkms as they have requested 👍

del

Edited November 20, 2020 by Christmas
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[Junkhead]

8 minutes ago, Lempicka said:

John Toshack did 3 promotions with Swansea in 4 seasons, getting to the top flight (then Division 1) in 1981.

Before my time (sorry, and only just lol) - nice, stylish passing football? Or no?

Again, genuine question.

[iAlwaysWin]

1 minute ago, Junkhead said:

There wouldn't be a point, and that is not at all what I am suggesting.

Livingston did this by spending well above their means and ended up relegated a number of divisions and in administration.

Gretna is another poor example because they were heavily financially backed and when the backer was not longer there they went bust.

I also have no idea what type of football they played in the fourth and third tiers. Do you? (Genuine question - I am interested).

It is quite telling that the three specific examples given so far have all been extreme cases involving massive financial backing.

Gegenpress is a commonly used tactic now in world football. The issue we have here is that some users are saying that when they use it, things are too easy. I'm saying that shouldn't be the case and explaining why.

Are you saying it should be easy? Again, genuine question, because I don't feel like I am getting your point.

Am not saying it should be to easy of course, everyone wants a challenge in some way, am just saying football is sometimes 'EASY' and anomalies do happen, take for example Real Madrid wining 3 Champions League in row, before this no team had even successfully defending the Trophy in the new format, would this be consider the game being to easy in FM if accomplished say 5 years ago before Madrid done it?