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Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?


Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?   

510 members have voted

  1. 1. This is a genuine question, as from reading the forum this year, it seems that FM21 is even easier than previous versions, and they were already very easy to either win the league every single season with a half-decent team or get six promotions in eight seasons with any lower-league team, both of which are unrealistic.

    • Yes, the game is too easy for me, with any team, and would be more fun for the full release to be harder and offer a challenge
      309
    • No, the game is too easy, but I'm happy to overachieve as it's just a game
      32
    • No, the game isn't too easy and I can't win the league every single season with a half-decent team or get six promotions in eight seasons with any lower-league team
      169


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What I've found that in this year, due to improvement in passing and finishing, passive (low block, low pressing) systems usually gets shafted hard. It favors overall an aggressive pressing system. 

And AI managers again still manages way too defensively, whenever you go off a good run of form the AI will just play defensively, and in this year as finishing and movement improves this problem gets amplified. 

I don't think nerfing passing or finishing is a good idea as that has been the highlight of this year's ME. Maybe making pressing less overpowered, or playing a high line against a fast striker more risky, or make AI managers more offensive.

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So much arguing on this forum when it's clear.. You only have to look at the bugs forum for genuine examples of the game being too easy once you hit a certain level of expertise ie you know how to put a solid tactic together (not a so called 'exploit') 

"Too easy" is anything between getting promoted with a team tipped for relation, or winning leagues and cups with massive goal differences, without putting in much effort to do so. 

Im not talking about OP exploits, 6 attack duties, people finding loop holes. I'm talking about honest gamers trying to get a challenge from a game that's supposed to be exactly that.. A challenge. 

Its interesting that there has been no patch of the beta this year. In previous years there is usually at least one update to the Beta before the full release. I'll assume its because they know there is something seriously wrong 

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14 minutes ago, pizzachips said:

I do wish there were more injuries/ greater fatigue- into mid march playing in 4 competitions I can nearly play the same team each game with resting player for 1-3 days (depay wasnt injured with me)image.thumb.png.8ca94b07b67fdc57d4793314c8201b33.png 

image.thumb.png.083b390d9a0982c2046aa55f41cc3a5d.png

You should report this with your save file since condition apparently received some tuning. I'm afraid that both injuries and condition may be working as intended though but it don't hurt to raise it anyway.

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46 minutes ago, badgith said:

Of course they are about this 2 because thats what I have played, how you expect me to argument without them? I will not be here saying "Its easy(hard) if you (don't) exploit AI" and discuss that, I want to talk about the problem, and thats on FM so I will be bringing my stats to the question because that way I can contribute, I can upload my save to the forum, but first I would want to be sure I'm the unique person feelling it or if on your saves it happens too, because thats the point of the conversation . Now I know where you got your nick.

It's not happening on my save.  I suggested you upload them hours ago. If you think the game is too easy upload the saves.

 

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3 horas atrás, thejay disse:

I think fm 21  is easy because the AI just can't attack properly .

Is it though? Are the AI goal statistics lower than reality? 

Perhaps the issue is against the player? i'm asking because i don't have the game. 

On fm20 the goal statistics seemed reasonable (without rigorous analysis) but it came at the expense of barely no central play and many missed 1on1s even by top strikers. 

Now for the full game coming up there will be ME adjustments for balancing sake but let's see what SI does. It's not an easy task that's for sure. 

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30 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

Okay. Have started with my generic gengen Wycombe and an interesting thing happened in this game.

I'd lost the previous 2 and Luton were heavy favourites but didn't even bother their arse to take me on when they were at home. 

5e22f4c41bc56ddc00de1a59ee41c843.png

An easy win in a match that shouldn't have been so easy.

Now, this is what I would take notice of. I assume no signings?

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Just now, Deisler26 said:

Now, this is what I would take notice of. I assume no signings?

Nope,

However, what I will say is that I am nearly in December and this has been an aberration so am willing to put it down to Luton's manager being a chicken. 

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38 minutos atrás, Wavelberry disse:

Okay. Have started with my generic gengen Wycombe and an interesting thing happened in this game.

I'd lost the previous 2 and Luton were heavy favourites but didn't even bother their arse to take me on when they were at home. 

5e22f4c41bc56ddc00de1a59ee41c843.png

An easy win in a match that shouldn't have been so easy.

What's more interesting is that this was already happening in FM20. But perhaps to a lesser extent. 

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2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The thing I don't understand is if the game is so incredibly easy, why is there a tactics forum on here at all? And further still, why would it be one of the busiest parts of the forum? But it is.  

And why are there so many downloaded 'cheat tactics'? Surely if the game was as easy as everyone says, there wouldn't be any need for any of that?

exactly i dont mind there being cheat tactics... if someone wants to use them let them, if you dont want to cheat dont use them.

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Okay. End of experiment one with my Gengen tactic of standard. This is what I played with Wycombe's best XI

f6e2e923ca601c9d4f44f7f12a4d16df.png

 

And these are the results...

e388b398e9e69855dcdcc4c520d25bdf.png

Aside from the Luton game which I mentioned above this went pretty much as expected. There were a few of the 3-0s where we missed easy chances due to being Wycombe but other than that I think it's a pretty fair reflection of where they are.

Picked best XI from start and then rotated as was suggested by AM apart from the Reading League Cup game where I fully rotated. Teamtalks etc done by me.

Will now try this with a 3-4-3 and see if we get any differences.

 

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2 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

Okay. End of experiment one with my Gengen tactic of standard. This is what I played with Wycombe's best XI

f6e2e923ca601c9d4f44f7f12a4d16df.png

 

And these are the results...

e388b398e9e69855dcdcc4c520d25bdf.png

Aside from the Luton game which I mentioned above this went pretty much as expected. There were a few of the 3-0s where we missed easy chances due to being Wycombe but other than that I think it's a pretty fair reflection of where they are.

Picked best XI from start and then rotated as was suggested by AM apart from the Reading League Cup game where I fully rotated. Teamtalks etc done by me.

Will now try this with a 3-4-3 and see if we get any differences.

 

Thanks for giving this a go! 

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It must be noted that on many accounts, game appear easy, because of poor AI squad management and transfers. Simply put, it's easy for gamers to win back to back promotions from lower leagues due to better acquisition of superior players. Then come the tactics and everything else.

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4 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

 

Still doesn't negate the fact that it's too forgiven. Yeah AI would rather have a full upfront payment but that doesn't take away how easy it is to get them to accept the installment over them.

Didn't say anything about doubling payments, but the payments should be more than upfront. That's basic negotiations.

 

Players overachieve easily so underperforming in order for the board to kick in really doesn't matter in this example.

 

Everything have a knock on effect on the game’s current difficulty.

I think you’re right here. The installments should increase the value of the overall transfer. That’s how getting anything on credit works (you pay more interest for paying over time). 
 

I think another solution could be to make the installments come back to bite you sooner. For example, we have a “next seasons transfer budget”. Perhaps the installments could affect that. It would lead to seasons where you spend more and seasons where you spend less (that’s how it is in real life even for the richest teams). This way we’d be less likely to make installment transfers all the time. Or at least be smart with them. 
 

Before anyone sharpens their pitchfork and comes at me for abusing the mechanic: I actually try my best to only use upfront transfer fees. I know it’s unrealistic, but it’s the only way to make transfers challenging until SI adjust the system. That said, I find the game is more fun and realistic, the less we have to shoot ourselves in the foot to achieve transfer realism. 
 

The particular transfer bit I’ve abused in the past is the “after 50 league appearances”. This one is even more ridiculous xD. I actually just tested this out although I’ve done it to more dizzying ratios in the past. Zaniolo was £25m-rated and I got an offer accepted for £20m + £40m after 50 league games. I know teams structure deals like this in real life, but the spread is never that silly. Also, this way I can just sign wonderkids to provide cover for my main players knowing it’ll take years before I have to honor those obligations. 

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As I'm waiting for full release before I start another save, I fired up FM21 there and started a Liverpool save, for the bantz. 

Default squad, default gegenpress tactics, full strength team for opening game away vs Burnley

image.png.e61eb6a9e6228d5c5b3bbddc0eb67ba1.png

It proves nothing of course, as it's only one game, but it went almost exactly as I thought it would. First hour, all over them. They understandably sat back and offered nothing coming forward and Salah destroyed them. But then an interesting thing happened, nearly all my outfield players minutes before Vydra scored had half or less health, and it showed. Burnley switched to a 4-2-4 attacking line up and dominated the last 20 mins, almost scoring a last minute equaliser. 

I know it's only a sample size of one game, and the only thing I did tactically was sub the most tired players off, but it was encouraging that the fitness levels were really poor into the latter stages. Could just be a fluke of course, but I thought it worth sharing nonetheless. 

I'm now away for a shower to wash off the shame of managing that horrible club. 

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21 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

Okay. End of experiment one with my Gengen tactic of standard. This is what I played with Wycombe's best XI

f6e2e923ca601c9d4f44f7f12a4d16df.png

 

And these are the results...

e388b398e9e69855dcdcc4c520d25bdf.png

Aside from the Luton game which I mentioned above this went pretty much as expected. There were a few of the 3-0s where we missed easy chances due to being Wycombe but other than that I think it's a pretty fair reflection of where they are.

Picked best XI from start and then rotated as was suggested by AM apart from the Reading League Cup game where I fully rotated. Teamtalks etc done by me.

Will now try this with a 3-4-3 and see if we get any differences.

 

Playing gegenpress, did you feel that you had to rotate players more often than normal with the squad?

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Just now, Mars_Blackmon said:

Playing gegenpress, did you feel that you had to rotate players more often than normal with the squad?

No rotation really needed with a week between games. Often 2 or 3 suggested after a midweek game. Make of that what you will.

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19 minutes ago, odigweg said:

For example, we have a “next seasons transfer budget”. Perhaps the installments could affect that.

It literally does that, and in fact, shows you the impact on the future transfer budgets on the exact same screen!

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2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

That's the problem, the 'too easy' brigade don't want to entertain 'other ways to enjoy the game', they want the game made exactly to their own specifications, despite there being 101 things you can do to make the game more challenging. It has to veer on the easy side for it to remain accessible to the majority, and difficulty levels simply won't work. 

Hey I appreciate that you don’t agree with the “too easy” claims, but dismissing all such complaints as “they don’t entertain other ways to enjoy the game” is a massive generalization. I haven’t given my two cents on difficulty yet, because I’m not yet sure which camp I fall in. However, I have seen people complain about different aspects of difficulty that can be tuned and give valid suggestions. 
 

Another thing, I know asking for difficulty levels is a bit of a stretch considering how the game is coded. But why is that something that affects you, who doesn’t think the game is too easy? Also why don’t you see that as a fair suggestion? Yeah you can say it’s an unrealistic ask, but isn’t this what’s beautiful about the game and our relationship with SI? Unlike EA and other bigger studios, SI actually listens! 
 

I’m just saying that making the generalizations you made (“they want the game made to their own specifications”) is a bit unfair as I have seen different people calling for different solutions and every idea, including yours, is valid. After all isn’t everyone going to be a proponent for their own beliefs? In that case doesn’t that mean everyone wants the game made to their own specifications...? 
 

lol now I’m getting into philosophical arguments :) . Personally I just enjoy seeing posts here where people are passionate about how they feel. If this was another gaming studio, I’d be immensely worried for our mental health lol. But we’ve seen (not least with the ME) that SI pays attention to our feedback, so let’s keep suggesting , giving feedback, and reporting what we believe to be bugs!

Onwards!

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Just now, Dagenham_Dave said:

It literally does that, and in fact, shows you the impact on the future transfer budgets on the exact same screen!

I’m pretty sure when the next season rolls around, you still get the massive budget you expected. The screen does indeed show next season’s transfer budget, but from my experience it does not actually affect me the next season. Even when the club’s finances are precarious. The only way it seems to affect me tends to be the percentage of transfer revenue made available. 

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I just wanted to show what a little tweak in the editor can change with injuries....I stated earlier what positive impact it can have in terms of difficulty with OP-Tactics. It has nothing to do with tweaking the game to make it more difficult, it just tries to remove the lower injuries-ratio, which SI were forced to implement because people thought the game would be too difficult.... By the way, the players in that save, seems not that happy:lol:

 

injuries ad absurdum.jpg

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Experiment the second.

A 3-4-3 default positive gengeb

12c02fda2ea53117d67f696b420e9f36.png

 

And the results...

28a39940db4934562c166f325c3960ee.png

So what can we learn? Wycombe's frontline is proper ***** mostly. Other than that it would appear that default gengen doesn't appear to be OP enough to mitigate Wycombe's deficiencies and nor are 3 up front on the default roles. 

So either it's a role issue or an extra TI issue which a good manager might do. As far as the default settings here are concerned though...

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Did 3 seasons with Wycombe (Hurray for relatively fast holidaying). Basically the way most people test a tactic, set it, delegate stuff to staff and go on vacation for a season.

Balanced 4-2-3-1 with Gegenpressing preset: 24th and hopelessly relegated

Knaps Beowulf 4-4-2: 22nd and relegated

Attacking 4-2-3-1 with Gegenpressing preset: 21st and narrowly hung on, points wise very similar to the 4-4-2 attempt though, so avoiding relegation is in part on the other relegation candidates being slightly worse.

Admittedly, for where Wycombe is, the last two results are by no means bad. But, to even come close to season 1 promotion, you're going to need to abuse a lot more stuff than simply a strong tactic. 3 strikers are probably better than the stuff I did and could see you up a bit further, but in general I'd say you're gonna need quite a bit more than "Just set gegenpressing preset and GG". Although if you really cared enough, I'm sure plenty of people could actually do it. Maybe I'll throw harrys 4-3-3striker system at this (if I can dig it up), but for now enough holidaying England, 2 leagues with this many teams holidaying in the background slows things down quite a bit on bigger match days. I probably should fire up my laptop for this stuff. :lol:

Also, I have no idea why I'm even doing this. Guess this is what happens when you're kinda stuck in limbo with no idea for a proper save, so you just start doing this kind of stuff. Can I have the FM21 editor already? I know you can somewhat cheese things with the FM20 editor, but still.

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25 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

Experiment the second.

A 3-4-3 default positive gengeb

12c02fda2ea53117d67f696b420e9f36.png

 

And the results...

28a39940db4934562c166f325c3960ee.png

So what can we learn? Wycombe's frontline is proper ***** mostly. Other than that it would appear that default gengen doesn't appear to be OP enough to mitigate Wycombe's deficiencies and nor are 3 up front on the default roles. 

So either it's a role issue or an extra TI issue which a good manager might do. As far as the default settings here are concerned though...

(maybe people did want to boast .. ;))

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vor 26 Minuten schrieb Wavelberry:

Experiment the second.

A 3-4-3 default positive gengeb

12c02fda2ea53117d67f696b420e9f36.png

 

And the results...

28a39940db4934562c166f325c3960ee.png

So what can we learn? Wycombe's frontline is proper ***** mostly. Other than that it would appear that default gengen doesn't appear to be OP enough to mitigate Wycombe's deficiencies and nor are 3 up front on the default roles. 

So either it's a role issue or an extra TI issue which a good manager might do. As far as the default settings here are concerned though...

wait....you won 4 - 0 vs Charlton...you see? it's OP....SI need to do something

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This is so easy I won the Prem first season with Everyon. Tottenham like a lot of people were crap finished 17th.. 

But on the other hand I'm not surprised this game is easy, SI only care about money.

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Gerade eben schrieb vukigepard:

He also got 2 AWAY goals vs Blackburn, SI, how could you allow this to happen 😄

How dare you,SI? I know it's more spam. but after posting some valuable content I give myself some freedom on that:lol:  some irony theese days is healthy:D

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vor 1 Minute schrieb MT55:

This is so easy I won the Prem first season with Everyon. Tottenham like a lot of people were crap finished 17th.. 

But on the other hand I'm not surprised this game is easy, SI only care about money.

they care about quality feedback in here, in the bug forum or feedback-thread or whatever. But after this statement I am pretty sure they won't care about you:brock:

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6 minutes ago, MT55 said:

This is so easy I won the Prem first season with Everyon. Tottenham like a lot of people were crap finished 17th.. 

But on the other hand I'm not surprised this game is easy, SI only care about money.

Want to try Wycombe if it is too easy? :)

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8 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

How dare you,SI? I know it's more spam. but after posting some valuable content I give myself some freedom on that:lol:  some irony theese days is healthy:D

I don't want to comment on how valuable your previous posts were, but mocking an entire group of players is not very valuable at all.

They have sincere concerns about the balance of the game and providing single cases where the problem is at least not obvious isn't in any way proof of the problem not existing at all.

Maybe we could go back to discussing actual proper approaches SI could realistically take to tackle the issue that seems to exist, given the number of complaints that have been made so far, which of course happens every year, but this year more so than usual.

Edited by GiovaneElber
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42 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

Experiment the second.

A 3-4-3 default positive gengeb

12c02fda2ea53117d67f696b420e9f36.png

 

And the results...

28a39940db4934562c166f325c3960ee.png

So what can we learn? Wycombe's frontline is proper ***** mostly. Other than that it would appear that default gengen doesn't appear to be OP enough to mitigate Wycombe's deficiencies and nor are 3 up front on the default roles. 

So either it's a role issue or an extra TI issue which a good manager might do. As far as the default settings here are concerned though...

So the chances of winning the Championship (plus FA cup obvs), then of course the Prem next year followed by the champions league are pretty slim would you say?

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vor 1 Minute schrieb GiovaneElber:

I don't want to comment on how valuable your previous posts were, but mocking an entire group of players is not very valuable at all.

They have sincere concerns about the balance of the game and providing single cases where the problem is at least not obvious isn't in any way proof of the problem not existing at all.

Maybe we could go back to discussing actual proper approaches SI could realistically take to tackle the issue that seems to exist, given the number of complaints that have been made so far, which of course happens every year, but this year more so than usual.

I never said there isn't any problem with the ME. I never been that aggressive, just have another opinion and I have maybe a more offensive way to show it. But dealing with different meanings must be possible in here IMO

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The game is just as easy as the players want it to be. If some players want it to be "too easy" then it will be too easy. if they want to be difficult or very difficult ... it will be difficult.

 

As an idea, some challenges are difficult even played "in easy mode" (as some people say). If the game became more difficult, of course, those challenges would become impossible to play. But does this matter as long as the game is "too easy" for some people?

Edited by GreenTriangle
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54 minuti fa, Wavelberry ha scritto:

Experiment the second.

A 3-4-3 default positive gengeb

12c02fda2ea53117d67f696b420e9f36.png

 

And the results...

28a39940db4934562c166f325c3960ee.png

So what can we learn? Wycombe's frontline is proper ***** mostly. Other than that it would appear that default gengen doesn't appear to be OP enough to mitigate Wycombe's deficiencies and nor are 3 up front on the default roles. 

So either it's a role issue or an extra TI issue which a good manager might do. As far as the default settings here are concerned though...

Wait, Akinfewa DLF? He's a refrigerator! 

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4 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

The game is just as easy as the players want it to be. If some players want it to be "too easy" then it will be too easy. if they want to be difficult or very difficult ... it will be difficult.

What does this even mean???

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vor 1 Minute schrieb GreenTriangle:

The game is just as easy as the players want it to be. If some players want it to be "too easy" then it will be too easy. if they want to be difficult or very difficult ... it will be difficult.

I dont know. Look at this starting XI from Watford in this thread which was posted one hour ago

https://community.sigames.com/topic/537102-way-too-easy-scoring-too-much-goals-savegame-and-unrealistic-matches-included/

 

I can live with self restrictions and so on. I would even not buy players with certain (too good) attributes. But you should never be able to lead the PL with this starting XI imo.

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1 minute ago, Defensive said:

I can live with self restrictions and so on. I would even not buy players with certain (too good) attributes. But you should never be able to lead the PL with this starting XI imo.

Maybe some players come home after 10 hours of work, they are tired but they want to play FM and they want to win the title with their favorite team. It doesn't matter if that team is a real title candidate in real life. Are they not allowed to relax because some people say that "the game is too easy"?

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16 minutes ago, badgith said:

Don't worry, we have 3 or 4 guys who think game is good like it is, but don't worry they don't present any type of argument besides "dont use exploits"

You seem to still be struggling so I'm going to try to make it VERY simple for you.

- No one wants the game to be too easy.

- Some of us on this thread, you included, have lots of evidence to indicate that it is too easy. You even posted some really good examples from two of your saves.

- Some other people on this thread, me included, haven't seen evidence personally that the game is too easy. In my case it's because I've not had long to play this version.

- in response to you saying it was too easy, I suggested you uploaded your save for the game developer to review. You said no. You also made a feeble attempt at either abuse or banter, couldn't tell which, in respect of my user name which made you look like a bit of  balloon.

- you now continue to argue it's too easy but refuse to upload evidence to the developer. You also seem annoyed at others because they haven't seen evidence in their own saves that it's too easy.

 

Just upload your saves.

It's not that anyone disbelieves you, or disagrees. We ALL want the game to be challenging.

But this thread has been full of people for 48 hours who have either been found to have been using known exploits or refuse to upload their saves, which is frankly bizarre.

 

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25 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

How dare you,SI? I know it's more spam. but after posting some valuable content I give myself some freedom on that:lol:  some irony theese days is healthy:D

I know us on the "opposite side of the debate" did the same thing last night. Well, actually based on arguments that were actually thrown also in this thread, such as "Try doing it with... it takes 10k more continue clicks" and some other that I don't remember anymore. 

Anyway, at least I have been talking a lot about "long term" also and mentioned that the first season with any club can turn out to be quite realistic one, after which the things get crazy when you get to the first summer transfer window (this of course only if you have disabled the first transfer window). Squad building, at least to me, is the biggest single issue in the game.

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5 minutes ago, harrycarrie said:

Just for a laugh, doing a holiday test as Wycombe with my 'exploit' 4123. Let's see what happens :D

A laugh for who, exactly?

Have you uploaded any of your saves?

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2 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Maybe some players come home after 10 hours of work, they are tired but they want to play FM and they want to win the title with their favorite team. It doesn't matter if that team is a real title candidate in real life. Are they not allowed to relax because some people say that "the game is too easy"?

I'm that case don't you think it would make more sense to make the game a real challenge, difficult, absorbing or whatever you want to call it, out of the box? Then those people who want an easier version have downloable tools and tactics and guides etc to make it easier. Rather than a unchallenging game that you have to make up your own rules or avoid certain features to make it harder??

Im not sniping or trying to be rude. It's a genuine question 

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