Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?

[KloppRodgersHodgson]

This isn't trying to annoy people, I'm just trying to gauge where other people are at in terms of whether they find it really easy, but are happy with that, or whether they don't find it that easy.

As reference, I'd say that if you're starting down the pyramid but getting promoted more than 50% of the seasons, that is still too easy.

And I'm not saying just nerf attacking play as the ME looks amazing this year for attacking. It should be that teams that play high-line, aggressive pressing football should be shattered by the end of the game and picked off on the counter, so they score a lot but concede a lot as well.

Edited November 17, 2020 by KloppRodgersHodgson

[VP.]

I must be the only person that seems to receive the 'harder' version every year...

[xray1324]

for the love of god don't change the difficulty - we'll end up with a worse fm20 on our hands

[alian62]

Why do people hark on about a BETA release and what it doesn't do or have or achieve !!  Wait until the full version . You cant make assumptions until then . This Beta could be 2-3 months old ?

[KloppRodgersHodgson]

5 minutes ago, alian62 said:

Why do people hark on about a BETA release and what it doesn't do or have or achieve !!  Wait until the full version . You cant make assumptions until then . This Beta could be 2-3 months old ?

That's why this is saying do you want the full release to be harder than the beta. We don't know what the full release will be like yet, of course, but we can see from this poll that people want it to be harder than the beta. 

[Lempicka]

We have the same disucssion every year. Diffuculty depends on who you manage and the resources at your disposal. If you want the play the game on an easy level - play with Bayern, PSG, Barca, Liverpool etc. 

If you want the harder version, begin you management career in the lower leagues and create your own tactics.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Lempicka
Typo

[GiovaneElber]

3 minutes ago, Lempicka said:

We have the same disucssion every year. Diffuculty depends on who you manage and the resources at your disposal. I you want the play ther game on an easy level - play with Bayern, PSG, Barca, Liverpool etc. 

If you want the harder version, begin you management career in the lower leagues and create your own tactics.

 

That's not really a relevant point though. OP already explained that this also includes managing lower league teams and the likeliness of back-to-back promotions, which seem to be as easy to achieve, if not even more so, as in previous versions.

There should be many more stepping stones, I'm also not in favour of changing up the ME to add difficulty, I would be happy to see something like an increase in AI transfer aggressiveness, such as bigger teams trying to buy your best players no matter what. Rejecting their offers resulting in the board stepping in or the player to revolt, causing problems in the changing room. This would actually make the game a lot harder by itself. So far it's just **** easy to keep your team every season, even if you are over performing, which is very unrealistic and lowering the difficulty tremendously.

At this point I would be even happy if this difficulty was somehow connected to the initial reputation set when creating a manager, basically making this a difficulty setting so players who like it easy can continue to play as they did, while people trying to have a challenge can always start with a non-league manager and will have to face a more aggressive AI, for example.

[harrycarrie]

Nah its hard enough

 

 

 

[KloppRodgersHodgson]

14 minutes ago, Lempicka said:

We have the same disucssion every year. Diffuculty depends on who you manage and the resources at your disposal. I you want the play ther game on an easy level - play with Bayern, PSG, Barca, Liverpool etc. 

If you want the harder version, begin you management career in the lower leagues and create your own tactics.

 

Can I just ask, when you play lower league teams, are you getting promoted most seasons?

[Lempicka]

2 minutes ago, GiovaneElber said:

That's not really a relevant point though. OP already explained that this also includes managing lower league teams and the likeliness of back-to-back promotions, which seem to be as easy to achieve, if not even more so, as in previous versions.

There should be many more stepping stones, I'm also not in favour of changing up the ME to add difficulty, I would be happy to see something like an increase in AI transfer aggressiveness, such as bigger teams trying to buy your best players no matter what. Rejecting their offers resulting in the board stepping in or the player to revolt, causing problems in the changing room. This would actually make the game a lot harder by itself. So far it's just **** easy to keep your team every season, even if you are over performing, which is very unrealistic and lowering the difficulty tremendously.

At this point I would be even happy if this difficulty was somehow connected to the initial reputation set when creating a manager, basically making this a difficulty setting so players who like it easy can continue to play as they did, while people trying to have a challenge can always start with a non-league manager and will have to face a more aggressive AI, for example.

Just because the OP finds the game easier - it's not the case for all players. True, I'm sure there's loads who find it easy, but there'll be just as many who struggle with the game. For SI, it'll be about finding the right balance for all. 

 

[V3ntricity]

it could be certain tactics or mechanics need to be adjusted, so that people who play it "as it's supposed to" won't get too affected.

[afailed10]

Well ye I haven't bought the game yet because although the ME seems much improved I'll wait for the full release with hopes it's not so easy as to batter the AI with template tactics. 

Ideally, you'd be able to win with a template tactic given you were good at squad management and player recruitment but should be mostly narrow wins and not breaking goal records. 

In fm20 was very easy to win but to beat defensive sides as a top team and have your striker score +30 in the league you'd have to play a lot of wingplay and crosses which became very boring. In FM21 that doesnt seem to be the case but it's way too easy from what I'm seeing in several websites and streams. 

Hopeffuly SI adjust the defensive side without nerfing the otherwise pleasant attacking play. 

[harrycarrie]

2 minutes ago, V3ntricity said:

it could be certain tactics or mechanics need to be adjusted, so that people who play it "as it's supposed to" won't get too affected.

Yeah 3 striker tactics right now are ridiculous.

[trekman]

I dont think the difficulty needs changing. I honestly have never believed these people who say they've won the league, cups, champions league ever year since taking over. Provide actual proof and I might believe you.

[Caning the Days]

I am aware of the implication of this point but be completely honest with yourself. Do you ever cheat? Ever? Not a single re-load when conceding a last min equaliser or if a brand new marquee signing gets injured for 9 months a few days after signing? Not many would blame you. The vast majority would do it, and maybe not even consider "just that one time" to be cheating. Maybe you justify it that it was just a wrong click of the mouse so it doesn't count etc. But it is cheating, and it is in those moments, those rage quitting moments, that the difficulty lies. Having an unhapy star striker, losing them on a free, signing expensive flops in the non league. Losing your job and frustratingly having to rebuild a career again. It's all there if you want it, just don't touch that 'Load' button...

Maybe try an online game with someone. It is the only way of never really being able to cheat and it makes the game a) a lot harder and b) much more fun. It drags it our over real time a bit, but if you can get into a decent routine then I have had the best games I have ever played this way. So much of FM is about form and happiness, so reloads and disagreements can really make a big difference in the long term.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Caning the Days

[Lempicka]

8 minutes ago, KloppRodgersHodgson said:

Can I just ask, when you play lower league teams, are you getting promoted most seasons?

I take my time with saves, so I'm only halfway into the season. I'm playing as Leyton Orient, predicted to finish 24th - but currently 8th in the league. I'm enjoying save and neither finding it complex or easy. I'm not expected to pull up any trees, and with the squad I have inherited - I doubt I'll make the play-offs.  I've found the IA better than previous versions and away from home, I've seen teams put me under considerable pressure, that have made me rethink my tactics during the game.

It would be interesting to create a poll to see whether people who find it really easy are using downloaded tactics. I'm not accusing you of this, but plenty do. Of course, the only problem with creating a poll like this, I imagine, is that many people would probably be reluctant to admit it.

Another interesting question would whether people using the default tactics are finding it too easy. If this is the case, then maybe people have a point. 

 

 

[ScottishFM]

3 minutes ago, trekman said:

I dont think the difficulty needs changing. I honestly have never believed these people who say they've won the league, cups, champions league ever year since taking over. Provide actual proof and I might believe you.

I'm not one of these people but I have done two saves since the beta started, one with Celtic which naturally was easy and got bored quite quickly and started a second save. The second save was with Morecambe in League 2 and I won the league first season despite having poor finances and currently sit top of the league in League 1 after 15 games unbeaten. I'm not complaining but I'm not exactly amazing at FM and this success has taken me by surprise so I can understand people saying it's "too easy". Proof below as you've requested.

 

[GiovaneElber]

3 minutes ago, Caning the Days said:

I am aware of the implication of this point but be completely honest with yourself. Do you ever cheat? Ever? Not a single re-load when conceding a last min equaliser or if a brand new marquee signing gets injured for 9 months a few days after signing? Not many would blame you. The vast majority would do it, and maybe not even consider "just that one time" to be cheating. Maybe you justify it that it was just a wrong click of the mouse so it doesn't count etc. But it is cheating, and it is in those moments, those rage quitting moments, that the difficulty lies. Having an unhapy star striker, losing them on a free, signing expensive flops in the non league. Losing your job and frustratingly having to rebuild a career again. It's all there if you want it, just don't touch that 'Load' button...

Maybe try an online game with someone. It is the only way of never really being able to cheat and it makes the game a) a lot harder and b) much more fun. It drags it our over real time a bit, but if you can get into a decent routine then I have had the best games I have ever played this way. So much of FM is about form and happiness, so reloads and disagreements can really make a big difference in the long term.

That is a fair point as well. Self discipline would improve the overall game experience as well. I often limit myself in what I do as a manager to keep things realistic, i.e. implementing certain LLM rules.

Makes me think if it would be a good idea to include an "ironman" mode in the feature that auto saves the game maybe after every match or even every day. Not sure if this would be practical at all at the current stage, given that saving takes a lot longer in this game than in others with such a mode, but maybe it's still worth considering.

[cudithekid94]

I'm happy with this if it's done by increasing the aggressiveness of AI Coaches as I'm finding them too cautious and passive. I would be pissed off if they do it by unnecessary ME tweaks or by changing the effectiveness. Everybody will be angry if "suddenly" they see they score half the goals with the same xG 

[Caning the Days]

3 minutes ago, GiovaneElber said:

That is a fair point as well. Self discipline would improve the overall game experience as well. I often limit myself in what I do as a manager to keep things realistic, i.e. implementing certain LLM rules.

Makes me think if it would be a good idea to include an "ironman" mode in the feature that auto saves the game maybe after every match or even every day. Not sure if this would be practical at all at the current stage, given that saving takes a lot longer in this game than in others with such a mode, but maybe it's still worth considering.

Yeah I would like that option too. Save after every game, but there would be difficulties as I have had bugs that stop a game progressing after 10+ years and it would be extra painful if you didn't have a backup. Maybe a web hosted save or a limited amount of reloads, but it would be difficult. Self discipline is the only option for now. I have found once you get over the first 3 or 4 really bad moments you might consider a reload it becomes much easier to stick at it.

[dannysheard]

15 minutes ago, Caning the Days said:

I am aware of the implication of this point but be completely honest with yourself. Do you ever cheat? Ever? Not a single re-load when conceding a last min equaliser or if a brand new marquee signing gets injured for 9 months a few days after signing? Not many would blame you. The vast majority would do it, and maybe not even consider "just that one time" to be cheating. Maybe you justify it that it was just a wrong click of the mouse so it doesn't count etc. But it is cheating, and it is in those moments, those rage quitting moments, that the difficulty lies. Having an unhapy star striker, losing them on a free, signing expensive flops in the non league. Losing your job and frustratingly having to rebuild a career again. It's all there if you want it, just don't touch that 'Load' button...

Maybe try an online game with someone. It is the only way of never really being able to cheat and it makes the game a) a lot harder and b) much more fun. It drags it our over real time a bit, but if you can get into a decent routine then I have had the best games I have ever played this way. So much of FM is about form and happiness, so reloads and disagreements can really make a big difference in the long term.

Hi there

I'm the OP but I've hit my daily limit on my proper account (since when was there a daily limit?!?!), so I've gone onto my old account. Not sure why I've got two accounts (maybe I was drunk one night and couldn't remember login details, but that's a different story!).

I'm 42 now and I'd hand on heart say, I don't think I've cheated one single time in the last 15+ years. I used to do it a little, in cup finals etc., when I was younger, but I'm all for immersion these days, so wouldn't want to play it if I cheated. 

[Lempicka]

9 minutes ago, GiovaneElber said:

Makes me think if it would be a good idea to include an "ironman" mode in the feature that auto saves the game maybe after every match or even every day. Not sure if this would be practical at all at the current stage, given that saving takes a lot longer in this game than in others with such a mode, but maybe it's still worth considering.

A good idea.

[IrrelevantLion]

I don’t think this sub is a realistic representation of the playerbase.

Edited November 17, 2020 by IrrelevantLion

[Caning the Days]

Just now, dannysheard said:

Hi there

I'm the OP but I've hit my daily limit on my proper account (since when was there a daily limit?!?!), so I've gone onto my old account. Not sure why I've got two accounts (maybe I was drunk one night and couldn't remember login details, but that's a different story!).

I'm 42 now and I'd hand on heart say, I don't think I've cheated one single time in the last 15+ years. I used to do it a little, in cup finals etc., when I was younger, but I'm all for immersion these days, so wouldn't want to play it if I cheated. 

Fair play then. Nice one! My post wasn't addressed specifically to you but to anyone really. 

If you're lucky enough to find that sort of self discipline easy and still finding the game could be more challenging, have you tried starting with a poor national league club and the lowest manager rep and badges? Could be a more tricky start at least?

[Pattric_b]

I’d like to see the manager profiles of the people dominating and saying it’s too easy. 

[dannysheard]

19 minutes ago, trekman said:

I dont think the difficulty needs changing. I honestly have never believed these people who say they've won the league, cups, champions league ever year since taking over. Provide actual proof and I might believe you.

Why would I make it up? I'm a 42-year old dad of three; I'm a bit past coming onto a forum to make things up.

I'm coming onto a forum to ask the developers to make the game harder... why would I do that if I just wanted to win and brag about in on here.

The proof bit is impossible because people could cheat anyway (as you see people showing league tables where they've won 38 out of 38). In my two or three Liverpool saves on FM20,  I must've done about 15 season and won 15 leagues, c. 9 Champions Leagues and about 20 out of the 30 domestic cups. And had by far the youngest team in the league. And about the 5th highest wage bill. And a net-positive transfers of several hundred million pounds on each save.

For lots of us, the game is too easy. And I think for lots that say it isn't too easy, they're getting promoted nearly every season but pretending they've got it hard because they started lower in the pyramid. If anything, that's even easier as you can have success by finishing in the top three and there are hundreds of players to buy to improve your team, making it even easier to exploit the transfer market. And you can loan players that are literally the best player in your team.

[Christmas]

2 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

I’d like to see the manager profiles of the people dominating and saying it’s too easy. 

Many will be Sunday league.

Too many people who take the suggestion that the game is too easy as an insult targeted for them.

The truth is only that you haven't accidentlally discovered the magic formula yet. Truth is, you don't want to. Its too boring to click-win. Seems this year more magic formula than before.

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 hours ago, alian62 said:

Why do people hark on about a BETA release and what it doesn't do or have or achieve !!  Wait until the full version . You cant make assumptions until then . This Beta could be 2-3 months old ?

The beta is for testing lol.

[dannysheard]

4 minutes ago, Caning the Days said:

Fair play then. Nice one! My post wasn't addressed specifically to you but to anyone really. 

If you're lucky enough to find that sort of self discipline easy and still finding the game could be more challenging, have you tried starting with a poor national league club and the lowest manager rep and badges? Could be a more tricky start at least?

I did a Bolton save (-12 points at the start of the season, virtually bankrupt), but found it way too easy still and a bit boring as I just love Liverpool. I don't mind winning with Liverpool because they're obviously really good, I just don't want to win a crazy amount of trophies.

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Lempicka said:

We have the same disucssion every year. Diffuculty depends on who you manage and the resources at your disposal. I you want the play ther game on an easy level - play with Bayern, PSG, Barca, Liverpool etc. 

If you want the harder version, begin you management career in the lower leagues and create your own tactics.

 

And every year that is the wrong assumption 

[forameuss]

If SI are ever going in to the design process with the initial question "How do we make this easier/harder?" then they're looking at it from the wrong angle.  There's no difficulty levels for a reason, and a good one at that.  The "difficulty" is always going to be a byproduct of everything else in the game, rather than a particular objective.  SI will always focus on delivering the most realistic experience possible, and the distance they miss that by will often feed into how difficult the game seems.  

[IrrelevantLion]

I’m sorry but I find this whole thing to come off as a humblebrag. I don’t think SI have secretly changed anything under the hood. 

[Christmas]

1 minute ago, IrrelevantLion said:

I’m sorry but I find this whole thing to come off as a humblebrag. I don’t think SI have secretly changed anything under the hood. 

That would make sense if the brag was truly 'i understand football so super amazing'.

It isn't. It's - 'i accidentally tried the (range of) specific tactics which break the ME'. Like I did     Nothing to be bragging of

[Kingstontom88]

I don't think it's so much about making the game 'harder' - it's more improving the function of the AI, both in matches tactically and in squad building.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Kingstontom88

[IrrelevantLion]

2 minutes ago, Christmas said:

That would make sense if the brag was truly 'i understand football so super amazing'.

It isn't. It's - 'i accidentally tried the (range of) specific tactics which break the ME'. Like I did     Nothing to be bragging of

Nah, humblebrag: an ostensibly modest or self-deprecating statement whose actual purpose is to draw attention to something of which one is proud.

[Mars_Blackmon]

17 minutes ago, Christmas said:

Many will be Sunday league.

Too many people who take the suggestion that the game is too easy as an insult targeted for them.

The truth is only that you haven't accidentlally discovered the magic formula yet. Truth is, you don't want to. Its too boring to click-win. Seems this year more magic formula than before.

i don't even use custom tactics lol. I would go out on the limb and say that people that are genuinely not having success are those that aren't using a good tactic for their squad whether it's template or custom. I'm oxford City so far in lower league and am projected to battle relegation but after 10 games so far, I'm still undefeated and rarely conceded a goal. i turned the first transfer window off and delegated all task to my staff...

I'm using the tactics that was suggested by the game. 

I'm far from exploiting the game but I am still having great success without much effort.

[iAlwaysWin]

Depends.....Artificially nerfing wingers and strikers to make a so called balance to things, nerfing attacking movement because defenders cant cope, well no thank you.

I want them to try and create things naturally within the Match Engine, improving all aspects of attacking and defending, they will tell you no rubber banding nerfing ever happens but i beg to differ but what evidence do i have.

[Christmas]

Yes. I think this year that the range of 'breaking tactics' are much wider which is why many people are finding them - not just people who download specific advertised ones.

 

[Pattric_b]

17 minutes ago, Christmas said:

Many will be Sunday league.

Too many people who take the suggestion that the game is too easy as an insult targeted for them.

The truth is only that you haven't accidentlally discovered the magic formula yet. Truth is, you don't want to. Its too boring to click-win. Seems this year more magic formula than before.

Wasn’t talking about myself. I find it hard to believe someone can take over Everton with Sunday league reputation is all I was getting at. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

4 minutes ago, iAlwaysWin said:

Depends.....Artificially nerfing wingers and strikers to make a so called balance to things, nerfing attacking movement because defenders cant cope, well no thank you.

I want them to try and create things naturally within the Match Engine, improving all aspects of attacking and defending, they will tell you no rubber banding nerfing ever happens but i beg to differ but what evidence do i have.

That's quite extreme especially since the main problem is that the AI teams aren't attacking enough.

 

The second problem which was one in FM 20 is that high intensity tactics don't drain stamina enough. This was supposedly fix this year but there have been people who report otherwise. I personally don't have a high intensity tactic at the moment so I can not confirm. But this was a big exploit in FM20...

[Piksi#10]

I don't get how people don't understand that there's no bragging here, a lot of people simply want a challenging game. Look at real life football, how hard it is for teams like PSG and Man City to reach that highest level of winning the Champions League. While on FM you can do that within 4 years with Bournemouth. 

Obviously this game doesn't mirror reality for the full 100% and never should, but there should be a real sense of accomplishment in winning major titles. That's all.

And I'm not talking about nerfing strikers either. Improve defending and AI management and we'll have come a long way already. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Piksi#10

[Mars_Blackmon]

7 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

Wasn’t talking about myself. I find it hard to believe someone can take over Everton with Sunday league reputation is all I was getting at. 

All this does is make it easier for you to lose the locker room. 

Problem with AI squad building and playing passive will still exist.

[dannysheard]

7 minutes ago, IrrelevantLion said:

Nah, humblebrag: an ostensibly modest or self-deprecating statement whose actual purpose is to draw attention to something of which one is proud.

I'm not proud of it. I know it's ridiculously easy. I'm SAYING it's ridiculously easy.

For many people, the game in the last few years has been like level 1 of Candy Crush.

At the moment, it's the equivalent of me playing football against a team of 5-year olds and saying, "I'm too good at football."

If you don't think it's too easy, you don't need difficulty levels. That's fine. I'm quite sad and I've spent thousands of hours playing FM over 20 years so I'm really good at it (like some people are much better than me at other games, or driving or chatting up women) so I do need difficulty levels.

[Loversleaper]

Personally the poll should have been choices between:

 

1 too easy

2 somewhat easy

3 normal

4 somewhat hard

5 too hard

 

 

[harrycarrie]

11 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

Wasn’t talking about myself. I find it hard to believe someone can take over Everton with Sunday league reputation is all I was getting at. 

Continental rep, not worldwide. As the game recommends you pick. I don't really see the issue with that.

[Pattric_b]

4 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

All this does is make it easier for you to lose the locker room. 

Exactly and squad happiness is a large part of this game. If you took over Everton with Sunday league rep I doubt you’d have such positive results because your players wouldn’t believe in you.  It was just a theory that maybe people are being so successful because their reputation is greater than the club they are managing. 

the fm20 beta seemed easier to me than the official release version so let’s wait and see what happens. 

[andu1]

The release could do with some tweaks to improve the AI managers choice of mentality and use of formations.

[dannysheard]

41 minutes ago, IrrelevantLion said:

I don’t think this sub is a realistic representation of the playerbase.

[citation needed]

Edited November 17, 2020 by dannysheard

[Piksi#10]

1 minute ago, Pattric_b said:

Exactly and squad happiness is a large part of this game. If you took over Everton with Sunday league rep I doubt you’d have such positive results because your players wouldn’t believe in you.  It was just a theory that maybe people are being so successful because their reputation is greater than the club they are managing. 

the fm20 beta seemed easier to me than the official release version so let’s wait and see what happens. 

My last save on FM20 was with Feyenoord. One of the 3 top teams in Holland. 

I started with a Sunday rep, no coaching badges. Finished second and won the cup. Yes, the players did doubt me and it did slow things down, but once I hit an average dressing room atmosphere, I was golden again. The game forgets your reputation past that point.

 

It's the same with people suggesting lower league management. It's not more difficult, it's just more time-consuming. 

[IrrelevantLion]

2 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

[citation needed]

Vast majority won’t even know this forum exists, even fewer will know about it, fewer still will directly engage. 
 

I'm sure the reason why SI haven’t really talked about this is because the data that they have tells them a different story.