Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Broken_Record:

Indeed. This was quite nicely summed up in a short post as these two are one of the main issues with the lack of difficulty. 

The transfer market should be a real challenge at least in two ways: after a season, it should always be a challenge to keep hold of your best and most promising players and on the other hand it should be really hard to strengthen the squad. 

At the moment the transfer market is probably the easiest part in the game to be successful as the AI doesn't compete against you at all and because we have so strong tools that will list us the players that we can freely pick up. 

 

This is strongly influenced by the database you use. Less nations/leagues playable creates an inbalanced transfer market.

[h3nrique_SEP]

 

56 minutes ago, ajsr1982 said:

In general though, teams like Bayern, Liverpool and City are set up avoid conceding lots of goals by defending in the opposition half

You're saying that the best way to not conceed goals is to defend inside the opposition half?

[DP]

2 minutes ago, h3nrique_SEP said:

 

You're saying that the best way to not conceed goals is to defend inside the opposition half?

It’s basically attack being the best form of defence. The high press and winning back possession - not letting the opposition in their half. 

[ajsr1982]

3 minutes ago, h3nrique_SEP said:

 

You're saying that the best way to not conceed goals is to defend inside the opposition half?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

[Icy]

hace 17 minutos, Broken_Record dijo:

Indeed. This was quite nicely summed up in a short post as these two are one of the main issues with the lack of difficulty. 

The transfer market should be a real challenge at least in two ways: after a season, it should always be a challenge to keep hold of your best and most promising players and on the other hand it should be really hard to strengthen the squad. 

At the moment the transfer market is probably the easiest part in the game to be successful as the AI doesn't compete against you at all and because we have so strong tools that will list us the players that we can freely pick up. 

 

Agree and that is what I'd like to be upgraded instead of having difficulty levels that boos stats or stuff like that. As I said, without house rules it's easy to hire free players at the end of their contracts or specially young players from leagues above yours that shouldn't be without a team or there should be more competition to hire them, so soon you have one of the best youth systems in your league if you want to. On the other hand, top teams should be more aggressive trying to hire your own players after a good season. 

I guess the problem is that AI managers look too much into CA and reputation and not enough into stats, unlike in real life that when a player has a good season he gets plenty of offers from better teams and young players from top teams are hired fast from lower teams and do not sit unemployed for long.

Also unemployed players should retire after a year regardless of their quality. I doubt there are players not playing for more than one year just waiting for a new chance, either they play even if it's in a lower league team or decide to find a new job and forget about their football dreams.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Icy

[Dagenham_Dave]

So, the people that want the game harder. What if SI said, yeah, ok then, we'll make it harder.

And you still massively overachieve. 

What then? Make it harder again? Where does it end?

The tools are already in the game to make the experience more challenging. If you choose not to use them, then the game will ALWAYS be too easy for you if you really know what you're doing. 

If you want to make it more realistic and challenging, start your career with a minnow and try and work your way up to a top job instead of just starting there with everything already in place for quick success. Until the AI improves to such an extent it can realistically challenge human behaviour (long way off), then the human player is always going to have the advantage. If you want things to be more difficult, you need to adapt the way you play it. 

There are tons of games with no difficulty levels that people have mastered. They then start using mods or handicapping themselves to make the experience more challenging. Or just stop playing if they're getting bored with it. It's a game after all. 

[Christmas]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So, the people that want the game harder. What if SI said, yeah, ok then, we'll make it harder.

And you still massively overachieve. 

What then? Make it harder again? Where does it end?

The tools are already in the game to make the experience more challenging. If you choose not to use them, then the game will ALWAYS be too easy for you if you really know what you're doing. 

If you want to make it more realistic and challenging, start your career with a minnow and try and work your way up to a top job instead of just starting there with everything already in place for quick success. Until the AI improves to such an extent it can realistically challenge human behaviour (long way off), then the human player is always going to have the advantage. If you want things to be more difficult, you need to adapt the way you play it. 

There are tons of games with no difficulty levels that people have mastered. They then start using mods or handicapping themselves to make the experience more challenging. Or just stop playing if they're getting bored with it. It's a game after all. 

Orrrrrrrr, maybe SI improve the already goodME so that it is harder to exploit in simple ways. No changes to difficulty levels at all. (Yes I know its not that easy, but the point is valid).

In response to your points

- Start as a minnow

    -  Doesnt matter, with current tactics bugs will win EPL within maybe league number + 1 years of start

- Work your way to top job

    -  This is already not possible, as high level job offers come in way too quickly even for sunday league. You can get a championship job offer and be rejected by Scotland 4th tier club in same day. So you cant work up to top as it just RNGs down to you

 I think even complaining people know that if managing EPL team as "sunday league" went as truthfully as if really you were Sunday League player in charge noone would buy it and it wouldn't be fun.

I think people dont want to feel that they hit start match, and because of accidentall tacticals issues they hit kick off and ME gives them many goals.

People have already explained sensible ways to affect, like more realistic stamina drain for gegenpress, or more reactive and reactionary AI (noting coding very difficult for laypeople)

Your lazy and snide comment ignores all the above, and the multiple sensible posts in this thread already about them

[saihtam]

5 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

If you want to make it more realistic and challenging, start your career with a minnow and try and work your way up to a top job instead of just starting there with everything already in place for quick success. Until the AI improves to such an extent it can realistically challenge human behaviour (long way off), then the human player is always going to have the advantage. If you want things to be more difficult, you need to adapt the way you play it.

BUt people have posted enough pictures where that they team that is designated for relegation to win their league. And that is case to much lower leagues also, not only bigger ones.

[swippy]

I mean this is supposed to be a management game, it's not realistic to qualify for CL with West Brom or Burnley two seasons in row without doing anything more than playing the preset gegenpress tactic and the same team talks every game.

I am not doing any transfers, scouting, training, rotations (unless a player is injured) or analysing. Just playing with same starting 11 every game and winning every game 3 - 0 or 4 - 0, with the occassional draw here and there. And I'm watching only key highlights.

Edited November 18, 2020 by swippy

[Junkhead]

2 minutes ago, Christmas said:

Orrrrrrrr, maybe SI improve the already goodME so that it is harder to exploit in simple ways

If everyone who is saying it is too easy are just exploiting the match engine then this whole thread is a waste of time.

And this is my fear. What I will say is that if high pressing tactics are OP, then that needs tweeking. I don't use them. But I should be able to without feeling like it is an exploit.

[VP.]

Just seems to me that most of the people that complain it's too easy do everything possible to make it easy?

[Christmas]

3 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

If everyone who is saying it is too easy are just exploiting the match engine then this whole thread is a waste of time.

And this is my fear. What I will say is that if high pressing tactics are OP, then that needs tweeking. I don't use them. But I should be able to without feeling like it is an exploit.

*Accidentally exploiting.

Every FM has people download tactic and want easy wins. This year, people wanting to play FM are making their own tactic and getting easy wins.

I completely agree that normal player people (non-magic tactic people winning game downloaders) must be able to play the game, using tactics they think up and thing seem OK, without feeling an exploit

[dannysheard]

4 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So, the people that want the game harder. What if SI said, yeah, ok then, we'll make it harder.

And you still massively overachieve. 

What then? Make it harder again? Where does it end?

The tools are already in the game to make the experience more challenging. If you choose not to use them, then the game will ALWAYS be too easy for you if you really know what you're doing. 

If you want to make it more realistic and challenging, start your career with a minnow and try and work your way up to a top job instead of just starting there with everything already in place for quick success. Until the AI improves to such an extent it can realistically challenge human behaviour (long way off), then the human player is always going to have the advantage. If you want things to be more difficult, you need to adapt the way you play it. 

There are tons of games with no difficulty levels that people have mastered. They then start using mods or handicapping themselves to make the experience more challenging. Or just stop playing if they're getting bored with it. It's a game after all. 

But we would still overachieve, and have done whenever we've tried with small teams. Just because you're at a minnow, doesn't mean you're not overachieving if you get lots of promotions.

Do you accept that I'm considerably better than you at this game?

[swippy]

4 minutes ago, SortitoutsiVP said:

Just seems to me that most of the people that complain it's too easy do everything possible to make it easy?

I think this would be ideal if actually doing sensible transfers, scouting, tactics and training makes you successful. But no right now you can be really successful just by doing the same thing AKA click more urgent pressing and ignore every other game feature.

[FlorianAlbert9]

28 minuti fa, SortitoutsiVP ha scritto:

Just seems to me that most of the people that complain it's too easy do everything possible to make it easy?

Everything like what?

Playing with eyes open It too "everything to make It Easy?" ?

We should let cat/dog/parrot to play in our place?

Edited November 18, 2020 by FlorianAlbert9

[loisvale]

19 hours ago, Loversleaper said:

Personally the poll should have been choices between:

 

1 too easy

2 somewhat easy

3 normal

4 somewhat hard

5 too hard

 

 

Good to see you lurking around. Please tell me you will be posting some tactics this year 🤞

[dannysheard]

1 hour ago, SortitoutsiVP said:

Just seems to me that most of the people that complain it's too easy do everything possible to make it easy?

This is me making the game too easy:

 - Switch off transfer windows

 - Letting players leave if they want to

 - No manual scouting/only sign players found by my scouts/never look at or download wonderkid lists

 - Manager levels several levels below recommended

 - Not really signing superstar players

 - No manual training, so I can't just exploit days off to be super-fit for every game or give all my players amazing PPMs

 - Only ever use my own tactics, built from scratch, and even then don't use anything that I feel is too gamey (both WB on attack without proper cover elsewhere, three forwards up top, attacking mentality for every game)

 - Change my formation every season to approximate the opposition finding my tactics out

There's probably a few more that I do as well as I go along.

 

[dannysheard]

52 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

Everything like what?

Playing with eyes open It too "everything to make It Easy?" ?

We should let cat/dog/parrot to play in our place?

My hamster sat on the continue button for two hours once... and won the Champions League... I still don't think it's too easy!

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, dannysheard said:

Do you accept that I'm considerably better than you at this game?

Absolutely, I have no qualms about that at all. As a 42 year old married man with 3 kids, you must be delighted to be better than someone else at a computer game. Congrats!

[dannysheard]

15 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Absolutely, I have no qualms about that at all. As a 42 year old married man with 3 kids, you must be delighted to be better than someone else at a computer game. Congrats!

You see this is the problem that we have.

If someone asked me if I agreed with difficulty levels in a game because they were better at it than me, I'd say yes, not a problem, I'll play at my level, you play at yours.

On FM, there's a real bitterness whenever this gets mentioned.

IT DOES NOT MAKE ME A BETTER PERSON THAN YOU!

I'm bad at driving, bad at cooking, I'm chubby after lockdown. But I am really good at FM and would love it if the game could be harder for me. As they do with other games.

 

[ma3]

2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So, the people that want the game harder. What if SI said, yeah, ok then, we'll make it harder.

And you still massively overachieve. 

What then? Make it harder again? Where does it end?

The tools are already in the game to make the experience more challenging. If you choose not to use them, then the game will ALWAYS be too easy for you if you really know what you're doing. 

If you want to make it more realistic and challenging, start your career with a minnow and try and work your way up to a top job instead of just starting there with everything already in place for quick success. Until the AI improves to such an extent it can realistically challenge human behaviour (long way off), then the human player is always going to have the advantage. If you want things to be more difficult, you need to adapt the way you play it. 

There are tons of games with no difficulty levels that people have mastered. They then start using mods or handicapping themselves to make the experience more challenging. Or just stop playing if they're getting bored with it. It's a game after all. 

 bro this is exactly what i did and have done in FM20, never had this issue, FM20 felt like a nice challenge and satifying when I achieve something, now i'm literally doing nothing just selecting a preset tactic and dominating any league, like i said i even just holiday half the season and still win the league, it sucks

[Chappie.dm]

It doesn't matter how hard or easy the game is because, at the end of the day, it's a management simulation game and there will always be exploits / short cuts to success. The only way to realistically simulate a degree of difficulty is if one human player goes head to head with another (FML springs to mind back in the day).

 

If I want a challenge on FM I take charge of a lower league team with no budget.

[Broken_Record]

14 hours ago, freddieos said:

I like the new ME a lot, finally it looks like real football. But I find the beta way too easy as well.   

Watford save:

1st season - No money at start. Won the Championship and broke the points record. Lost two games in the league.

2nd season - Finished 4th in the Prem with the same squad essentially.

Current season - Invested 100m and sitting 2nd after half the season and topped my group in the Champions.

I'm not using any custom tactics or overpowered 3-man attack or anything. 4-1-4 straight out the box on Positive at home and Cautious away. Started at National reputation and Continental A license.

Away teams are trash in the beta. Very common they have 0 chances against me at home. They need to improve away team play for the full release.

Also, another thing that makes the game too easy is that despite my crazy overachievement and surplus of wonderkids, I've had one unsolicited bid in 2,5 seasons. That's not realistic. I should have been raided by now and have a squad of grumpy entitled brats who all want new contracts or move on to bigger pastures. But no, very little of that so far. 

The above would have not been possible on FM20 (which was already too easy).

This is actually a great example and a lot about those things that I've been writing about. This type of save game is not a career, it's a total success story. And that is also something that I always face when I start a new game with Football Manager. This both kills my interest in playing long saves with multiple seasons and also my desire to study the new features of the game. 

I would say that most managerial careers should be something else than a success story and even if you happen to be successful at some point, that should not guarantee that things will remain that way. Look at Mourinho or Moyes in real life for example. 

[dannysheard]

8 minutes ago, Chappie.dm said:

It doesn't matter how hard or easy the game is because, at the end of the day, it's a management simulation game and there will always be exploits / short cuts to success. The only way to realistically simulate a degree of difficulty is if one human player goes head to head with another (FML springs to mind back in the day).

 

If I want a challenge on FM I take charge of a lower league team with no budget.

Yep. Did that Bolton (points deduction, virtually bankrupt). Too easy for me.

[Dagenham_Dave]

6 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

I would say that most managerial careers should be something else than a success story and even if you happen to be successful at some point, that should not guarantee that things will remain that way. Look at Mourinho or Moyes in real life for example. 

Had a journeyman save last year, massive success over 5 years at Rangers (to be expected, only really one club to beat), moved to Spurs and was sacked at the end of the first year. Then got the Lazio job  and won Serie A at the end of the first season there, so again, it's not the same for everyone. 

FM, like any other simulation, is an easy game if you know what you're doing and you take massive advantage of the limitations of the code. If you try and play as  realistically as possible, it's a more rewarding experience. 

[Chappie.dm]

6 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

Yep. Did that Bolton (points deduction, virtually bankrupt). Too easy for me.

Blimey maybe you're right. Maybe we should be protesting outside SI Towers  

[Broken_Record]

6 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

FM, like any other simulation, is an easy game if you know what you're doing and you take massive advantage of the limitations of the code. If you try and play as  realistically as possible, it's a more rewarding experience. 

Once again; not exactly true. For example I don't have to take any advantages of the limitations of the code or learn how to use the new features of the game to be way more successful than any manager should be. If I want things to be somewhat realistic, I will have to sabotage my own gameplay at every step and in every possible way. That is not how a simulation type of game should be. 

[dannysheard]

7 minutes ago, Chappie.dm said:

Blimey maybe you're right. Maybe we should be protesting outside SI Towers  

Don't hurt me.

[swippy]

I think it's a good point that the most enjoyable saves have been those where you've struggled a bit but managed to turn it around. Going from success to success to success forever is not that much fun.

 

I just want to feel like my management makes a difference. If I can win everything with absolute zero effort it doesn't feel like an achievement.

[dannysheard]

13 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Had a journeyman save last year, massive success over 5 years at Rangers (to be expected, only really one club to beat), moved to Spurs and was sacked at the end of the first year. Then got the Lazio job  and won Serie A at the end of the first season there, so again, it's not the same for everyone. 

FM, like any other simulation, is an easy game if you know what you're doing and you take massive advantage of the limitations of the code. If you try and play as  realistically as possible, it's a more rewarding experience. 

So you overachieved six seasons out of seven. Just remind me again what side of the argument you're on?

[Chappie.dm]

2 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

Don't hurt me.

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, dannysheard said:

So you overachieved six seasons out of seven. Just remind me again what side of the argument you're on?

Winning trophies with Rangers is hardly overachieving. 

[Daveincid]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb dannysheard:

Don't hurt me.

no more

[Dagenham_Dave]

8 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

Once again; not exactly true. For example I don't have to take any advantages of the limitations of the code or learn how to use the new features of the game to be way more successful than any manager should be.

It's not all about you though, is it? 

[dannysheard]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Winning trophies with Rangers is hardly overachieving. 

How many trophies did you win? Europe?

[Broken_Record]

Just now, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's not all about you though, is it? 

No, but as you can see: quite many are sharing the same experiences. And after all: is there any real reason not to have the game at more difficult side? If you're not successful in it, then learn to play it and try again. That is not too much to ask from anyone. On the other hand it's way harder if the game is too easy as sabotaging your own gameplay can be a tough thing to do and also simulation game should never be asking us to do it. 

[dannysheard]

4 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

no more

What is love?

[dannysheard]

4 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's not all about you though, is it? 

This is the whole point of difficulty levels.

Person A finds normal mode enjoyable.

Person B finds harder mode enjoyable.

[harrycarrie]

I'm loving it but strikers are silly

 

[bobbyb12345]

I've stopped playing the BETA because there is no drama.

And I'm managing East Fife...

[vukigepard]

No, finally we have a fm that has an enjoyable ME, that is very fun to watch. You, as a human, have the advantage to make your team play like you want them to play and finally do that. Now, the reason you are winning "too easily" is because AI can be to passive. To prove my point, you can see average goals scored by AI teams in league, it's a bit below the normal range but near the average . You as a human stand out. The fix for that is not to nerf attacking play or improve the defence, it's only to make AI more attacking than it currently is. And for that, anybody can make a custom database. If you do touch the ME, vice versa is not possible, and that's the reason why the game shouldn't be harder as a lot of people, like me, don't want it to be, and why it can be harder if you want it without limiting yourself

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

How many trophies did you win? Europe?

At least the trophies I won were trophies in which the team could actually compete in. Unlike say, non-league Chorley in the LEAGUE cup. Remember that faux-pas Danny boy? 

[Daveincid]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb harrycarrie:

I'm loving it but strikers are silly

 

https://www.transfermarkt.ch/duvan-zapata/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/73794/plus/0?saison=2018&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=

Zapata is massively underperforming....IRL he scored 13 goals in 7 games....

Edited November 18, 2020 by Daveincid

[Junkhead]

30 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

5 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

This is the whole point of difficulty levels.

Person A finds normal mode enjoyable.

Person B finds harder mode enjoyable.

 

Yes to improved AI which means transfers, tactics and squad building are improved from an AI perspective. 

No to making things arbitrarily harder by boosting stats or fitness or what have you for the opposition.

Pretty certain that literally everyone in this thread agrees tbh. Feel like we are all arguing in the same direction.

[The Basque]

I think the game had made big steps forward in the last years. But mainly it's getting much too easy. 

In the past, we had a good database combined with a game wich makes it not to easy to be successful.

 

Since haf an decade we have an outstanding good database (not that much high potencial players like in the past) but unfortunately an easy game. 

The point is, that there is absolutly no need to use all the beautiful stats etc. to find the right solutions for performance issues of the own team. 

I would love a game wich makes it necessary to use all the instruments FM gives us. 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

Edit says: In the past FM/CM was a game for experts. Now is for everyone, including monkeys ^^

But don't get me wrong. It's still the best game to buy!

Edited November 18, 2020 by The Basque

[dannysheard]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

At least the trophies I won were trophies in which the team could actually compete in. Unlike say, non-league Chorley in the LEAGUE cup. Remember that faux-pas Danny boy? 

I do remember that, and agreed it was the FA Cup, silly me.

In all honesty, I don't want to fight on here (although you have to admit it is a bit enjoyable being catty sometimes ).

I just think there is the possibility of the game being better for everyone and difficulty levels might be the best way to get to that. I know you can't just make the normal game harder as a lot of casual players will be turned off by having the game overly difficult and never getting promoted/winning stuff.

It might just be that they need to enhance the editor, or leave some of the code open to modders, so we can set our own difficulty levels (by buffing the AI attributes when they play me, for example).

In the absence of that, it sounds like some players have had some joy by changing the AI managers to make them a lot more attacking, so I may have to try that for now.

[rp1966]

16 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

This is the whole point of difficulty levels.

Person A finds normal mode enjoyable.

Person B finds harder mode enjoyable.

The only thing that will truly make for a more challenging experience, keeping a balanced game world, is a better 'AI'.  I'm sure SI are working on that, but to give the 'AI' managers better decision making within the performance constraints of processing 1000s of matches is not going to be an easy task.

If you want a difficult levels set by nerfing player stats or buffing the stats of computer teams then use the editor to do so for your game.

In the meantime - the balance of the game will always be set to allow the average human player to slightly overachieve - that's just good business sense for SI.

I think the 'difficulty level' crowd miss the point that FM is not a player-centric game; it is a game world into which the human player is inserted.  The balance is set to give reasonably realistic outcomes for the 'Ai' managers. 

All strategy games are the same - if you have a well worked strategy for the game once you have addressed weaknesses in your starting position and consolidated every game proceeds the same way unless you consciously decide to change it (e.g. role playing).

What do Cities: Skylines players do when they've mastered the management aspects? They treat the game as a sandbox. What do FM players do when they've mastered the management aspects....?

Edited November 18, 2020 by rp1966

[dannysheard]

3 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Yes to improved AI which means transfers, tactics and squad building are improved from an AI perspective. 

No to making things arbitrarily harder by boosting stats or fitness or what have you for the opposition.

Pretty certain that literally everyone in this thread agrees tbh. Feel like we are all arguing in the same direction.

I'd love the game to be naturally harder, but I think that making the AI better is really, really hard, though.

If anything the AI gets worse compared to the human each year as more functionality is added to the game.

[rp1966]

10 minutes ago, harrycarrie said:

I'm loving it but strikers are silly

 

Strikers are now scoring the chances that were nerfed in FM20; hence more goals from similar tactics.  Defence and midfield now need to be improved to reduce the level of chance creation, but attacking play is the best it's been for years and shouldn't be touched.

[dannysheard]

3 minutes ago, The Basque said:

I think the game had made big steps forward in the last years. But mainly it's getting much too easy. 

In the past, we had a good database combined with a game wich makes it not to easy to be successful.

 

Since haf an decade we have a outstanding good database (not that much high potencial players like in the past) but unfortunately an easy game. 

The point is, that there is absolutly no need to use all the beautiful stats etc. to find the right solutions for performance issues of the own team. 

I would love a game wich makes it necessary to use all the instruments FM gives us. 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

Edit says: In the past FM/CM was a game for experts. Now is for everyone, including monkeys ^^

But don't get me wrong. It's still the best game to buy!

I agree. I'd love to have to analyse the next opponent, work out their weakness and pick my formation, tactics, training, players to combat that particular opponent to have a good chance of winning, rather than just sticking to a bog-standard simple tactic to beat everyone.