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FM21 - Total Football, A club dna project with positional play


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1 hour ago, TheGreatest said:

So when you are camping in the opponent's half he is still pinning back their line?

Often yes, sometimes no. But generally speaking, this has worked the best for my whole series on Total Football/Juego de Posicion.

 

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

I was going to praise your 'minimalist' tactic until I realised that once you add up the PIs too you have almost double what I have over in my FM19 thread :lol:

I'm actually considering copying that into my 3rd tactic slot to see how it translates backwards in time, but I know there were some mentality changes. If I have it right - and feel free to correct me - IW has a lower mentality than IF, but otherwise they'll all be the same as FM19? (Obviously I also know Focus Play... doesn't affect player mentality, but you're not using it). If so, what is the mentality of your IW?

I might steal Stay Wider on a centre-back, see if it prevents too much Spain-esque passing among the defenders and defensive midfielder.

I'm curious about the choice of Cross More Often on Lazzari and Wijndal though?

Ya, the PI's are a little much maybe? I'm just coming back after a long break. It's possible I might start trimming those down as well, we shall see. 

I like the defense quite a bit, works well.

For the mentality, I've gotten this same tactic working in FM20 with my last powerhouse team, but the ME isn't quite the same for some of the quick passing through the center of the park as FM21. I've not tried this on FM19 although maybe I should :)

The IW is just that, a little less agressive than the IF, and definitely can look to be more of a creator. I think the best expression of the IW is riyad mahrez, although I also watch City a lot, so I'm sure some others. When I check in the tactics, the IW-S has a positive mentality.

The cross more often is there to make sure they are staying involved enough. I typically use PI's to town down the aggressiveness of the FB/Wb's, as otherwise they all are way too aggressive in this game, especially as most players (when signing upper echelon guys) will have aggressive player traits like gets further forward. So I force them to be more defensive so that they are more balanced, but also allowing for the attacking players to have more room. With cross more often they will overlap and cross, jsut not all of the time.

Let me know if you try it in FM19.

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The season is going great and is close to wraps. Here's a nice little update:

image.png.5eedf21969b4b80d16cd4eecd17ce9d4.png

 

We had a difficult road to get to the finals, with our semi final matchup against City. We have had an awful historical record against pep, but finally exercised some demons by opening the series with a 3-0 home win. We lost 2-0 at City next but had done enough in the first leg to see us through.

We have 3 mid table and down games left in the season then the big final. I'll do a nice update after the season.

As a fun teaser, one of my youngsters is really developing well. Check this stud out at 17 yo.

image.thumb.png.b14d1a2849dd571bbde4e1befc5bd4fd.png

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So, as I suggested I decided to take the latest tactic and plug it into my all-conquering Roma side on FM19. I don't expect anyone to read my overly-long thread, so here's my manager's biography to give you an idea of the level of my squad:

2003821668_Screenshot2021-07-27at22_19_39.png.23228f12ac7f726627c65f045514326c.png

And here's how my 'A' line-up (I rotate heavily) fits into the tactic:

1271701757_04texag4-2-3-1Roma.png.50d71408f7dc1dc05b2eda19b450746e.png

Miletic = 90% of Lewandowski, Marcello = Lucas Torreira + set pieces, Campanella = 15+ for all Advanced Forward attributes, plus 14 Vision

I've usually alternated between 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 so my team are well-suited to the shape, and we play on Attacking mentality so Positive isn't too much of a drastic change. Even by our own standards we came into things in incredible form - our results between international breaks were: 6-1, 7-0, 5-0, 5-0, 6-1. The last result is against Arsenal in the Champions League, this isn't whipped semi-pro teams in the cups. I played 5 matches after the international break in October. I'll post the stats in spoilers so as to not take up too much space in the thread, and summarise my thoughts below.

Spoiler

Roma 4-1 Fiorentina

395748247_Roma4-1Fiorentina.png.535b5ca706b391adb967ef3b16267da5.png

Our reputation is such that almost any team on the planet is fielding a massed defence bar Manchester United, whilst some could say this invalidates the "experiment" I say its the truest test of a possession tactic. 

53% is about par for the course when we play a 4-2-3-1 shape (we get less in a 4-3-3 as its an inferior pressing shape). Two of our goals and their only one came from set pieces, with 2 of ours from open play. My 4-3-3 is also a dual-playmaker system with DLP-De at DM and RPM at MC, so I was surprised to find Pellegrini and Zaniolo passing to each other significantly more than usual: 105 and 88 passes, respectively, as opposed to averaging 50 each with my own tactics. Everyone else's numbers are the same, so it really is just a bit of tiki-taka. We wouldn't traditionally get 10+ long shots even in games where we have 30 or more on goal, but scoring 4 is pretty much standard for this team.

Roma 4-0 Besiktas

1635486000_Roma4-0Besiktas.png.e61732aee090288ef5d57232f1a5da17.png

Again, half of our goals are from open play but this time one was a Messi-esque dribble and shot. 4-0 is again what I'd expect at this stage of the save. Interestingly we were at 60% possession and 0 shots against until my assistant informed me they were playing more cautiously, so they must have been passing around the back much like people claimed was an issue on FM20.

Roma 4-0 Atalanta

990597925_Roma4-0Atalanta.png.5baf7c599ddb9881fa134526e50e0226.png

Atalanta play a back 3/5 so this was a tough assignment for a possession tactic with only 1 striker. 2 screamers from my short throw routine (70% of the time sets up a shot from a central area outside the box), a penalty that wouldn't otherwise have been a goal, and an open play move. Zaniolo and Pellegrini down to more ordinary pass numbers (50-70).

SPAL 0-0 Roma

256834466_SPAL0-0Roma.png.d13ec137688317a7d7eb06e933f874f0.png

...I haven't been held to a domestic draw in over 4 years - we set the Serie A record for consecutive wins at 114 - so even though it was a rotated lineup this is a disappointment, as that lineup is the same one that spanked Arsenal 6-1. Another back 5. I should note I didn't make any changes whereas usually I can go to a 4-2-4 and smash in 3 in injury time if needed.

Roma 3-0 Inter

2075159148_Roma3-0Inter.png.13be1f7bbb8a693a6858791262f3b6c9.png

2 from open play and 1 from a corner. A comprehensive destruction of Inter is quite common - this was pre-Conte Inter at the start of the save and they did not buy well. 

What I can conclude from this is:

  • FM19 sucks for possession play - I know, shocker right? I have the most gifted XI in the league by a long shot, with an abundance of Technique, Passing, Off The Ball, Flair, Vision, Composure, and Anticipation yet the most creative thing I ever see is a ball in between the opponent's winger and full back to get our full back to the byline. This tactic didn't change that.
  • The tactic translates! We've all had that killer tactic that just stops working when the new FM comes out. Without my excellent set piece routines I would still have won these, as our opening goal each time was from open play or a penalty. Averaging 4 goals per game is standard for this squad, and as we already know their default tactic is extraordinarily effective, in a small sample this one seems to set us up to average 2 per game which - with very low concessions - is trophy-winning form,
  • Defensively this is very good - I managed to get league concessions into single digits but that was only because of some heroic last-ditch tackles and goalkeepers when teams would get through on the counter, in these 5 games I don't think I saw an opposition shot except the Fiorentina goal.
  • OR...maybe anything that doesn't actively not work will see a team on an almost 500-game unbeaten streak keep racking up the wins:lol:

I'm actually going back to the save point before kick-off in the first match and will play with my own tactics, making adjustments etc. and see if it turns out much different. Other than I doubt we'd draw against SPAL, I expect to see similar results.

EDIT:

Spoiler

421653343_Screenshot2021-07-28at01_03_36.png.e1b9416e44aba38cb09391ec4c29d6fc.png

4 better results, 1 worse, and this time they're all clean sheets...

So yeah, I guess I learned nothing!

Edited by zlatanera
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4 hours ago, zlatanera said:

So, as I suggested I decided to take the latest tactic and plug it into my all-conquering Roma side on FM19. I don't expect anyone to read my overly-long thread, so here's my manager's biography to give you an idea of the level of my squad:

2003821668_Screenshot2021-07-27at22_19_39.png.23228f12ac7f726627c65f045514326c.png

And here's how my 'A' line-up (I rotate heavily) fits into the tactic:

1271701757_04texag4-2-3-1Roma.png.50d71408f7dc1dc05b2eda19b450746e.png

Miletic = 90% of Lewandowski, Marcello = Lucas Torreira + set pieces, Campanella = 15+ for all Advanced Forward attributes, plus 14 Vision

I've usually alternated between 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 so my team are well-suited to the shape, and we play on Attacking mentality so Positive isn't too much of a drastic change. Even by our own standards we came into things in incredible form - our results between international breaks were: 6-1, 7-0, 5-0, 5-0, 6-1. The last result is against Arsenal in the Champions League, this isn't whipped semi-pro teams in the cups. I played 5 matches after the international break in October. I'll post the stats in spoilers so as to not take up too much space in the thread, and summarise my thoughts below.

  Hide contents

Roma 4-1 Fiorentina

395748247_Roma4-1Fiorentina.png.535b5ca706b391adb967ef3b16267da5.png

Our reputation is such that almost any team on the planet is fielding a massed defence bar Manchester United, whilst some could say this invalidates the "experiment" I say its the truest test of a possession tactic. 

53% is about par for the course when we play a 4-2-3-1 shape (we get less in a 4-3-3 as its an inferior pressing shape). Two of our goals and their only one came from set pieces, with 2 of ours from open play. My 4-3-3 is also a dual-playmaker system with DLP-De at DM and RPM at MC, so I was surprised to find Pellegrini and Zaniolo passing to each other significantly more than usual: 105 and 88 passes, respectively, as opposed to averaging 50 each with my own tactics. Everyone else's numbers are the same, so it really is just a bit of tiki-taka. We wouldn't traditionally get 10+ long shots even in games where we have 30 or more on goal, but scoring 4 is pretty much standard for this team.

Roma 4-0 Besiktas

1635486000_Roma4-0Besiktas.png.e61732aee090288ef5d57232f1a5da17.png

Again, half of our goals are from open play but this time one was a Messi-esque dribble and shot. 4-0 is again what I'd expect at this stage of the save. Interestingly we were at 60% possession and 0 shots against until my assistant informed me they were playing more cautiously, so they must have been passing around the back much like people claimed was an issue on FM20.

Roma 4-0 Atalanta

990597925_Roma4-0Atalanta.png.5baf7c599ddb9881fa134526e50e0226.png

Atalanta play a back 3/5 so this was a tough assignment for a possession tactic with only 1 striker. 2 screamers from my short throw routine (70% of the time sets up a shot from a central area outside the box), a penalty that wouldn't otherwise have been a goal, and an open play move. Zaniolo and Pellegrini down to more ordinary pass numbers (50-70).

SPAL 0-0 Roma

256834466_SPAL0-0Roma.png.d13ec137688317a7d7eb06e933f874f0.png

...I haven't been held to a domestic draw in over 4 years - we set the Serie A record for consecutive wins at 114 - so even though it was a rotated lineup this is a disappointment, as that lineup is the same one that spanked Arsenal 6-1. Another back 5. I should note I didn't make any changes whereas usually I can go to a 4-2-4 and smash in 3 in injury time if needed.

Roma 3-0 Inter

2075159148_Roma3-0Inter.png.13be1f7bbb8a693a6858791262f3b6c9.png

2 from open play and 1 from a corner. A comprehensive destruction of Inter is quite common - this was pre-Conte Inter at the start of the save and they did not buy well. 

What I can conclude from this is:

  • FM19 sucks for possession play - I know, shocker right? I have the most gifted XI in the league by a long shot, with an abundance of Technique, Passing, Off The Ball, Flair, Vision, Composure, and Anticipation yet the most creative thing I ever see is a ball in between the opponent's winger and full back to get our full back to the byline. This tactic didn't change that.
  • The tactic translates! We've all had that killer tactic that just stops working when the new FM comes out. Without my excellent set piece routines I would still have won these, as our opening goal each time was from open play or a penalty. Averaging 4 goals per game is standard for this squad, and as we already know their default tactic is extraordinarily effective, in a small sample this one seems to set us up to average 2 per game which - with very low concessions - is trophy-winning form,
  • Defensively this is very good - I managed to get league concessions into single digits but that was only because of some heroic last-ditch tackles and goalkeepers when teams would get through on the counter, in these 5 games I don't think I saw an opposition shot except the Fiorentina goal.
  • OR...maybe anything that doesn't actively not work will see a team on an almost 500-game unbeaten streak keep racking up the wins:lol:

I'm actually going back to the save point before kick-off in the first match and will play with my own tactics, making adjustments etc. and see if it turns out much different. Other than I doubt we'd draw against SPAL, I expect to see similar results.

EDIT:

  Hide contents

421653343_Screenshot2021-07-28at01_03_36.png.e1b9416e44aba38cb09391ec4c29d6fc.png

4 better results, 1 worse, and this time they're all clean sheets...

So yeah, I guess I learned nothing!

Nice, glad you tried it. How do you feel like the games played out. Was what you saw on the pitch what you'd expect? You have to rmember too, your team has extreme familiarity with your normal tactic, as if I recall you haven't done super large changes in awhile? So a new tactic like mine will surely need some games and training. Sounds like defensively solid, and good to see lots of open play goals. 

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3 hours ago, 04texag said:

Nice, glad you tried it. How do you feel like the games played out. Was what you saw on the pitch what you'd expect? You have to rmember too, your team has extreme familiarity with your normal tactic, as if I recall you haven't done super large changes in awhile? So a new tactic like mine will surely need some games and training. Sounds like defensively solid, and good to see lots of open play goals. 

I’ll be honest, it mostly looked the same. Like I said in the post, other than the two playmakers in that one game against Fiorentina everyone got similar passing numbers. Slightly more cautious play from the centre backs which makes sense as I use BPD. Statistics end up very similar as well.
In a way we have different methods to get to the same goal - I use lots of TIs, you have lots of PIs. Player traits obviously come into it too - Pellegrini, Zaniolo and some of the forwards are very direct, but the whole team has Plays One-Twos so I’ve always been disappointed with what I see with my own tactic too. There’s also the fact that I wasn’t joking when I said Manchester United are the only tram who actually attack us, which limits the opportunity to see good passing moves as everyone else retreats from the first whistle.

 I might give it a real go in my next (and possibly final) season. 

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Ironically, I tried using this setup with my team on FM21 and did not work at all, really. Like @zlatanera, all my players are of the highest level and even fit the individual roles like a charm. Despite that, while being defensively very solid, we simply do not create any chances. The most shots I've had with this tactic in a game is 9. 
I've not fiddled with it, just thought I'd report it. 

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