FM21 - Total Football, A club dna project with positional play

[04texag]

1 hour ago, TheGreatest said:

So when you are camping in the opponent's half he is still pinning back their line?

Often yes, sometimes no. But generally speaking, this has worked the best for my whole series on Total Football/Juego de Posicion.

 

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

I was going to praise your 'minimalist' tactic until I realised that once you add up the PIs too you have almost double what I have over in my FM19 thread 

I'm actually considering copying that into my 3rd tactic slot to see how it translates backwards in time, but I know there were some mentality changes. If I have it right - and feel free to correct me - IW has a lower mentality than IF, but otherwise they'll all be the same as FM19? (Obviously I also know Focus Play... doesn't affect player mentality, but you're not using it). If so, what is the mentality of your IW?

I might steal Stay Wider on a centre-back, see if it prevents too much Spain-esque passing among the defenders and defensive midfielder.

I'm curious about the choice of Cross More Often on Lazzari and Wijndal though?

Ya, the PI's are a little much maybe? I'm just coming back after a long break. It's possible I might start trimming those down as well, we shall see. 

I like the defense quite a bit, works well.

For the mentality, I've gotten this same tactic working in FM20 with my last powerhouse team, but the ME isn't quite the same for some of the quick passing through the center of the park as FM21. I've not tried this on FM19 although maybe I should

The IW is just that, a little less agressive than the IF, and definitely can look to be more of a creator. I think the best expression of the IW is riyad mahrez, although I also watch City a lot, so I'm sure some others. When I check in the tactics, the IW-S has a positive mentality.

The cross more often is there to make sure they are staying involved enough. I typically use PI's to town down the aggressiveness of the FB/Wb's, as otherwise they all are way too aggressive in this game, especially as most players (when signing upper echelon guys) will have aggressive player traits like gets further forward. So I force them to be more defensive so that they are more balanced, but also allowing for the attacking players to have more room. With cross more often they will overlap and cross, jsut not all of the time.

Let me know if you try it in FM19.

[04texag]

The season is going great and is close to wraps. Here's a nice little update:

 

We had a difficult road to get to the finals, with our semi final matchup against City. We have had an awful historical record against pep, but finally exercised some demons by opening the series with a 3-0 home win. We lost 2-0 at City next but had done enough in the first leg to see us through.

We have 3 mid table and down games left in the season then the big final. I'll do a nice update after the season.

As a fun teaser, one of my youngsters is really developing well. Check this stud out at 17 yo.

[zlatanera]

@04texag Nice to see the same names still pop up in the same positions:

Ben Beechey in England (often Man Utd) on FM19 is another common one.

[zlatanera]

So, as I suggested I decided to take the latest tactic and plug it into my all-conquering Roma side on FM19. I don't expect anyone to read my overly-long thread, so here's my manager's biography to give you an idea of the level of my squad:

And here's how my 'A' line-up (I rotate heavily) fits into the tactic:

Miletic = 90% of Lewandowski, Marcello = Lucas Torreira + set pieces, Campanella = 15+ for all Advanced Forward attributes, plus 14 Vision

I've usually alternated between 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 so my team are well-suited to the shape, and we play on Attacking mentality so Positive isn't too much of a drastic change. Even by our own standards we came into things in incredible form - our results between international breaks were: 6-1, 7-0, 5-0, 5-0, 6-1. The last result is against Arsenal in the Champions League, this isn't whipped semi-pro teams in the cups. I played 5 matches after the international break in October. I'll post the stats in spoilers so as to not take up too much space in the thread, and summarise my thoughts below.

Spoiler

Roma 4-1 Fiorentina

Our reputation is such that almost any team on the planet is fielding a massed defence bar Manchester United, whilst some could say this invalidates the "experiment" I say its the truest test of a possession tactic. 

53% is about par for the course when we play a 4-2-3-1 shape (we get less in a 4-3-3 as its an inferior pressing shape). Two of our goals and their only one came from set pieces, with 2 of ours from open play. My 4-3-3 is also a dual-playmaker system with DLP-De at DM and RPM at MC, so I was surprised to find Pellegrini and Zaniolo passing to each other significantly more than usual: 105 and 88 passes, respectively, as opposed to averaging 50 each with my own tactics. Everyone else's numbers are the same, so it really is just a bit of tiki-taka. We wouldn't traditionally get 10+ long shots even in games where we have 30 or more on goal, but scoring 4 is pretty much standard for this team.

Roma 4-0 Besiktas

Again, half of our goals are from open play but this time one was a Messi-esque dribble and shot. 4-0 is again what I'd expect at this stage of the save. Interestingly we were at 60% possession and 0 shots against until my assistant informed me they were playing more cautiously, so they must have been passing around the back much like people claimed was an issue on FM20.

Roma 4-0 Atalanta

Atalanta play a back 3/5 so this was a tough assignment for a possession tactic with only 1 striker. 2 screamers from my short throw routine (70% of the time sets up a shot from a central area outside the box), a penalty that wouldn't otherwise have been a goal, and an open play move. Zaniolo and Pellegrini down to more ordinary pass numbers (50-70).

SPAL 0-0 Roma

...I haven't been held to a domestic draw in over 4 years - we set the Serie A record for consecutive wins at 114 - so even though it was a rotated lineup this is a disappointment, as that lineup is the same one that spanked Arsenal 6-1. Another back 5. I should note I didn't make any changes whereas usually I can go to a 4-2-4 and smash in 3 in injury time if needed.

Roma 3-0 Inter

2 from open play and 1 from a corner. A comprehensive destruction of Inter is quite common - this was pre-Conte Inter at the start of the save and they did not buy well. 

What I can conclude from this is:

• FM19 sucks for possession play - I know, shocker right? I have the most gifted XI in the league by a long shot, with an abundance of Technique, Passing, Off The Ball, Flair, Vision, Composure, and Anticipation yet the most creative thing I ever see is a ball in between the opponent's winger and full back to get our full back to the byline. This tactic didn't change that.
• The tactic translates! We've all had that killer tactic that just stops working when the new FM comes out. Without my excellent set piece routines I would still have won these, as our opening goal each time was from open play or a penalty. Averaging 4 goals per game is standard for this squad, and as we already know their default tactic is extraordinarily effective, in a small sample this one seems to set us up to average 2 per game which - with very low concessions - is trophy-winning form,
• Defensively this is very good - I managed to get league concessions into single digits but that was only because of some heroic last-ditch tackles and goalkeepers when teams would get through on the counter, in these 5 games I don't think I saw an opposition shot except the Fiorentina goal.
• OR...maybe anything that doesn't actively not work will see a team on an almost 500-game unbeaten streak keep racking up the wins

I'm actually going back to the save point before kick-off in the first match and will play with my own tactics, making adjustments etc. and see if it turns out much different. Other than I doubt we'd draw against SPAL, I expect to see similar results.

EDIT:

Spoiler

4 better results, 1 worse, and this time they're all clean sheets...

So yeah, I guess I learned nothing!

Edited July 28, 2021 by zlatanera

[04texag]

4 hours ago, zlatanera said:

So, as I suggested I decided to take the latest tactic and plug it into my all-conquering Roma side on FM19. I don't expect anyone to read my overly-long thread, so here's my manager's biography to give you an idea of the level of my squad:

And here's how my 'A' line-up (I rotate heavily) fits into the tactic:

Miletic = 90% of Lewandowski, Marcello = Lucas Torreira + set pieces, Campanella = 15+ for all Advanced Forward attributes, plus 14 Vision

I've usually alternated between 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 so my team are well-suited to the shape, and we play on Attacking mentality so Positive isn't too much of a drastic change. Even by our own standards we came into things in incredible form - our results between international breaks were: 6-1, 7-0, 5-0, 5-0, 6-1. The last result is against Arsenal in the Champions League, this isn't whipped semi-pro teams in the cups. I played 5 matches after the international break in October. I'll post the stats in spoilers so as to not take up too much space in the thread, and summarise my thoughts below.

  Hide contents

Roma 4-1 Fiorentina

Our reputation is such that almost any team on the planet is fielding a massed defence bar Manchester United, whilst some could say this invalidates the "experiment" I say its the truest test of a possession tactic. 

53% is about par for the course when we play a 4-2-3-1 shape (we get less in a 4-3-3 as its an inferior pressing shape). Two of our goals and their only one came from set pieces, with 2 of ours from open play. My 4-3-3 is also a dual-playmaker system with DLP-De at DM and RPM at MC, so I was surprised to find Pellegrini and Zaniolo passing to each other significantly more than usual: 105 and 88 passes, respectively, as opposed to averaging 50 each with my own tactics. Everyone else's numbers are the same, so it really is just a bit of tiki-taka. We wouldn't traditionally get 10+ long shots even in games where we have 30 or more on goal, but scoring 4 is pretty much standard for this team.

Roma 4-0 Besiktas

Again, half of our goals are from open play but this time one was a Messi-esque dribble and shot. 4-0 is again what I'd expect at this stage of the save. Interestingly we were at 60% possession and 0 shots against until my assistant informed me they were playing more cautiously, so they must have been passing around the back much like people claimed was an issue on FM20.

Roma 4-0 Atalanta

Atalanta play a back 3/5 so this was a tough assignment for a possession tactic with only 1 striker. 2 screamers from my short throw routine (70% of the time sets up a shot from a central area outside the box), a penalty that wouldn't otherwise have been a goal, and an open play move. Zaniolo and Pellegrini down to more ordinary pass numbers (50-70).

SPAL 0-0 Roma

...I haven't been held to a domestic draw in over 4 years - we set the Serie A record for consecutive wins at 114 - so even though it was a rotated lineup this is a disappointment, as that lineup is the same one that spanked Arsenal 6-1. Another back 5. I should note I didn't make any changes whereas usually I can go to a 4-2-4 and smash in 3 in injury time if needed.

Roma 3-0 Inter

2 from open play and 1 from a corner. A comprehensive destruction of Inter is quite common - this was pre-Conte Inter at the start of the save and they did not buy well. 

What I can conclude from this is:

• FM19 sucks for possession play - I know, shocker right? I have the most gifted XI in the league by a long shot, with an abundance of Technique, Passing, Off The Ball, Flair, Vision, Composure, and Anticipation yet the most creative thing I ever see is a ball in between the opponent's winger and full back to get our full back to the byline. This tactic didn't change that.
• The tactic translates! We've all had that killer tactic that just stops working when the new FM comes out. Without my excellent set piece routines I would still have won these, as our opening goal each time was from open play or a penalty. Averaging 4 goals per game is standard for this squad, and as we already know their default tactic is extraordinarily effective, in a small sample this one seems to set us up to average 2 per game which - with very low concessions - is trophy-winning form,
• Defensively this is very good - I managed to get league concessions into single digits but that was only because of some heroic last-ditch tackles and goalkeepers when teams would get through on the counter, in these 5 games I don't think I saw an opposition shot except the Fiorentina goal.
• OR...maybe anything that doesn't actively not work will see a team on an almost 500-game unbeaten streak keep racking up the wins

I'm actually going back to the save point before kick-off in the first match and will play with my own tactics, making adjustments etc. and see if it turns out much different. Other than I doubt we'd draw against SPAL, I expect to see similar results.

EDIT:

  Hide contents

4 better results, 1 worse, and this time they're all clean sheets...

So yeah, I guess I learned nothing!

Nice, glad you tried it. How do you feel like the games played out. Was what you saw on the pitch what you'd expect? You have to rmember too, your team has extreme familiarity with your normal tactic, as if I recall you haven't done super large changes in awhile? So a new tactic like mine will surely need some games and training. Sounds like defensively solid, and good to see lots of open play goals. 

[zlatanera]

3 hours ago, 04texag said:

Nice, glad you tried it. How do you feel like the games played out. Was what you saw on the pitch what you'd expect? You have to rmember too, your team has extreme familiarity with your normal tactic, as if I recall you haven't done super large changes in awhile? So a new tactic like mine will surely need some games and training. Sounds like defensively solid, and good to see lots of open play goals. 

I’ll be honest, it mostly looked the same. Like I said in the post, other than the two playmakers in that one game against Fiorentina everyone got similar passing numbers. Slightly more cautious play from the centre backs which makes sense as I use BPD. Statistics end up very similar as well.
In a way we have different methods to get to the same goal - I use lots of TIs, you have lots of PIs. Player traits obviously come into it too - Pellegrini, Zaniolo and some of the forwards are very direct, but the whole team has Plays One-Twos so I’ve always been disappointed with what I see with my own tactic too. There’s also the fact that I wasn’t joking when I said Manchester United are the only tram who actually attack us, which limits the opportunity to see good passing moves as everyone else retreats from the first whistle.

 I might give it a real go in my next (and possibly final) season. 

[Christopher S]

Ironically, I tried using this setup with my team on FM21 and did not work at all, really. Like @zlatanera, all my players are of the highest level and even fit the individual roles like a charm. Despite that, while being defensively very solid, we simply do not create any chances. The most shots I've had with this tactic in a game is 9. 
I've not fiddled with it, just thought I'd report it. 

[04texag]

I can appreciate the current tactic isn't working for others, but at least there is this:

 

I think going into the next season, we shall see some BIG BIG changes for Lazio. I mentioned in a previous post that this was the year and we did it. But some stars are up there in age, some aren't performing as well as I'd like, especially considering their wages and the youngsters I have. So, with a CL win, a League win, I think i'm going to sell some players, bring all the youth up. And in the process I'm going to fix the tactic so that there are TIs, not so heavily PI dependent, but still keep things playing how I want. Ideally, I want to find a way to get the system to work with less and less instructions.

[RF Todd]

Loved reading this thread. Your insight into building tactics is fascinating. Exactly why I play FM, I just wish I got more time to play it these days! haha

I'm going to try this philosophy later if I get a chance and see how it goes.

Thanks for sharing @04texag 

[04texag]

Time to be a necromancer and dig up this old thread.

I've been really enjoying FM21 lately, and specifically, continuing the work laid out in this thread with Building Lazio with a modern club DNA built around Total Football, Juego de Posicion, and Pep Guardiola influences. Just in case anyone is still interested, I figured I could put another season ending update out. But more importantly, I have learned some new tips and tricks that have been helping with my squad building, tactical approaches, and youth development. So I figured sharing those would be a prudent update.

All of those above things are a lot. So I'll bring this potentially final update (unless their is appetite for more) into a few posts.

2028 Season Results

We are now at the end of 2028. We have SOLD a ton of players over the last few years, truly working hard to bring in youth, develop them, and move them on. All the while, we have created the worlds highest reputation youth development (according to the club vision and board reports). So that means, our squad looks quite different. Our expectations haven't been as high of us because of this. But we were still able to meet the goals and win the Serie A for the 5th time! We also earned a treble! Lazio won the league, and both the Super Cup and the Italian Cup.

For the Champions League, we were knocked out in the semi finals by Man City. It was a tough 0-0 Home match, followed by a 0-1 loss at the Etihad. We had a tieing goal ruled for offsides in stoppage time, that in my opinion was WAY too close. It was a heart breaking defeat.

Look at that goal differential! We scored 91 or so goals, one of my highest outputs.  Shockingly, our star player and 2027 leading scorer Amine Gouri had an off year. But the slack was picked up by two of our highest promise young talents. Goncalo Lacerda scored a total of 25 goals with 5 assists across all competitions, and Ricardo Tagle scored 26 with 5. Tagle tore it up with reduced minutes, scoring 11 CL goals in only 4 starts! (Player profiles to follow shortly).

Favorite young prospects

I have a few prospects that are very exciting. Here are some of our best young talents.

As mentioned, Lacerda has been crushing it. I primarily have him training and playing as an IF-A in the AML position. Sometimes I move him up to the striker spot.

 

Ricardo Tagle has amazing off the ball, good anticipation, composure and technique. I'm hoping he will continue to get a little quicker. 

 

Federico Casagrande was sent on loan to AS Monaco for the year. I wasn't sure I'd be able to get him enough playing time, and I'm glad I loaned him out. He crushed it in Lique 1, helping them qualify for CL football and scoring 20 goals! He will be our starter next year with Tagle his back up.

 

Last of the Attacking trident prospects is Iker Agirre. He is starting at AMR for us playing as a W-Su.

 

I'll split as another post as this is getting picture heavy.

[04texag]

Playmakers

I'm really excited about the above attacking players, but potentially more so for some of my young playmakers. None more so, than Roberto Roque. Not sure about some of these down arrow blips, as he has been developing well and training rating always above 9. His performances have yet to truly tick on. He has some great games and some ok 6.8 games. I think that's sometimes due to the 10 spot in a 4231 not always being consistent, especially when we face teams with a DM, which right now in my save the 433 is really dominating across Europe.

Going into next year, Santos will be the backup AMC to Roque, he's playing and developing nicely, and as a bonus over Roque, he is either footed. He's got good average stats but not as many exceptional.

 

In the Cm strata, Aloe is our highest potential player and has performed very well as an 18 year old with the senior team all year. He got 22 starts and an average 7.1 rating. 5 goals and 7 assists. He has been the backup to Gaetano Castrovillia.

I'm also excited about Adam Norko who was on loan with Club Brugge this past season. He can fill in next year behind either CM position or the ACM. 20 technique, great vision, decisions, flair and work rate. This guy could be a star.

[04texag]

Youth Development

I was beginning to get frustrated about a month back. I had lots of young high potential players, and even though I've read all of the guides about setup and youth development, it just felt like things weren't ticking. I felt like over the years, the players would develop ok but their high potential would fall off and land at about 3 star players. I've made some changes, and it's still too early to be conclusive, but things seem to be doing much better so far. 

Players under 18

I always start guys under 18 on the U18s squad, no matter how high their current ability is. Typically I want lots of training and games for these guys. I do not unless addressing a glaring weakness, mess with the player's positional training. I do however manage ALL teams training calendars, more on that later. 

As games progress, if halfway through the season I have a u18 literally lighting it up with a consistent over performance, over 7.25 rating and lots of goals or assists, I will promote them to the U20s. If the player is still under 18 and on the U20 squad, I will make him available for 60mins for the U18s, but I will watch the U20 match reports. If this player is consistently starting for the U20s, then I will remove this, as they will start getting TOO many games, which means not enough training time. Players under 18/19 need more training than game time.

Guys like Aloe (see above) are good enough to be on the senior team. He typically gets 1 game a week with the seniors. As long as he is getting that amount of game time, i do NOT make him available for the U20s. I need him training still and not getting 2 games a week. This is a change from before, I used to always make guys available for the team below them and they were simply getting too many games and not enough training.

Players over 18

This is a critical age, 18-20. Guys need consistent 1 game a week, and training, BUT also good mentoring. Once players are getting routine game time and close to 20, mentoring just does not seem to work reliably. It's best to fix personality issues very early, around 17-18. Juan Manuel Selles is a good example. Exemplarily player in all regards, except he's unambitious. I took a risk on signing him, but he was too well regarded even at a young age because he was good enough to start for the first team. No matter how I mentored him, the result from mentoring was always labeled as none on estimated effect from group. He has played OK for us, but other teams think he's amazing, so I'm moving him on. So close to a dream CM strata dlp

 

So aside from personality issues, once a player is 18, at the beginning of the season I try to evaluate the player very critically. He will either be of the mould of Aloe and be a player I commit to playing on the senior team, or he's not. If not, then step 2 is to determine does he need high quality training still, or is he good enough to start AND play well on loan at another good club. Ideally he is ready to play and will go to another top flight team and get 20+ games and 7 + ratings. If I don't believe he's capable of that, then he stays at home and plays the whole year only on the U20s. I can control training, keep an eye on them etc.

 

Once I've decided where the guys will play, I track their training. One of the best things you can do is have a good Head of Youth Development. This is well documented, but one of the things I use them for is coach and training reports. If you have a good HoYD, they should have high judging player ability and potential. This is great as only coaches can give coach reports and training reports, but most coaches don't have those scouting attributes. Utilize your HoYD often to track training performance of your youngsters.

Training

I used to always have guys training PRDs. I do this much less now. My team training on the senior team, which is all guys 18+, is more focused on game performance than attributes than it used to be. I now have separate youth training schedules that highlight training of my DNA attributes and physical development. 2/3rds of the senior team year is spent training for games, set pieces, and teamwork. This has helped our performance on the field. That said, at least 1 week a month, I make sure the senior team is getting more technical training. At the beginning of the season there is more tactical training.

On international breaks, I actually use my youth training schedule and add in more set piece delivery training.

These changes have led in the second half of the last season to some ramped up development gains. 

Here is the full 1 year for Goncalo Lacerda. Since mid year, he's launched his progression. 

Looking at his ALL time attributes growth, which is over 3 seasons, some great looking stuff. 1 5 (anticipation) and lots of full 3 point improvements.

Roberto Roque has gone up 1 full star from 2 to 3 in current ability over the course of 1 season, which I'm also quite happy with.

This is also working well with the youth. Here is a 16 year old, so one year of progress from 15-16.

 

Training Calendars 

Don't view these as full plug and play, but just examples. Senior squad is more focused on game performance and tactical familiarity. Youth calendars are all about attribute growth and not game performance.

Seniors I always do match review and recovery on the day after games

 

 

Youth

Ginga 1 match

Normal 1 match

[04texag]

Finding Youngsters

The youth development classes are way too sporadic and random, and thus, I've started trying to sign youngsters, sometimes guys as young as 15-16, and bringing them in early to send them through the above training. Using scouts like normal is one thing, but another new trick I've started is watching for youth competitions and overperformers in those. The best way to do this is to setup your screen flow to automatically show you when youth tournaments are going on. Once you set that up, the game will automatically show you competition overview screens like this:

 

You set this up by going here in preferences: 

 

Here is mine, just select whatever tournaments you want to follow:

On the overview, I look for players who are overperforming with average rating, goals, assists, key passes. By doing so, I found this gem. He's joining our team this summer and looks like an 18 year old who is ready to be an immediate impact for our senior team (Juan Manuel Selles' replacement in fact!)

 

I'll leave all of my updates at that. Hope you've enjoyed checking out the progress, happy as always to answer any questions. Thanks for reading.

[ta11zx]

Can you send a link of the base tactic along with the attacking version and the "see the game out version"? 

 

Sick tactic!

[blackmoix]

@04texagPlease, link tactics for FM21? 

I Like your posts!!! 

 

[ta11zx]

Definetly need that download link for this tactic daddy