FM21 - Total Football, A club dna project with positional play

[DimitrisLar]

hi everyone. mr @04texag you be motivated me to search for creating diamonds outside the 4-3-3 i obsessively picked as my formation for the last 2 versions of the game.  Thanks a lot for that!

Although i haven't figured out how i have to instruct the players to play the 4-2-3-1, mostly cause of my incapability on the game, i made my juventus team play quite good with a 4-4-2. We top the table and ronaldo has 33 goals in 30 appearances. 

that's the tactic so far 

i didn't go for the stoper-cover cb duet cause of the speed juventus cb's have. Also about creating different tactical plans and that discussion above, i've noticed that when kulusewski plays he creates more stability in the diamond and when bernandeschi plays, cause of his move into channels, we get a great advantage against a side with a back 5

keep the good work dude!

[gunnerfan]

4 hours ago, 04texag said:

1) The CM-D offers a necessary holding midfielder and is our primary ball recycler. He also launches good cross field switches of play.

2) RPM-s to DLP-S - This functionally changes the RPM from the heartbeat of the team to more of a holding midfielder, deep playmaker. This change shifts the ball recycling role away from the CM-d to the dlp-s, and also allows the AP-S to now become the primary playmaker, whereas before I view the RPM as the primary of the two.

• CM-d to CM-S - this change relinquishes the holding player to the DLP-s, and now the CM-s can be more free playing, to link up better in more advanced positions with the AP-S, even allowing some channel runs

 

 

Questions:

1) Does your CM/D have (or, alternatively, are you training him to develop) a PPM for switching the field?

2) When your RPM/S becomes a DLP/S and your CM/D becomes a CM/S, they pretty much switch functions. So do both players have (or are they training to develop) a PPM for switching the field as well? If so, does having two players side-by-side who can switch the field create confusion in the tactic, or does it help? 

3) Do you ever see a benefit from having your AP switch the field?

It seems to me that your sense of having these changes planned out in advance also extends to what you have key players doing in training.

[retrodude09]

@04texag - I find the Tactical Pieces more interesting because I would say I'm terrible at recognising what is going on in a game & adjusting to it. My latest game is a perfect example of that: 

I watch on Comprehensive Highlights & in my last game vs. Arsenal & it got to the point where the majority of highlights were of Arsenal attacking down my wing & I didn't know how to react. Looking at the Focus of Attacks graph afterwards, that was definitely the case. 42% down the left wing & 53% down the right wing. I didn't react & we gave away a free kick in a wide area that we conceded from & tied the game 1-1.

What would you do in that situation? 

For context, I was in a 4-3-3-0 vs. Arsenals 5-2-3 that they start with under Arteta. 

[nick1408]

11 hours ago, 04texag said:

@gunnerfan @retrodude09  @ozilthegunner 

Lots of good conversation going on here guys! Sorry, I have been out of town and just got back and been catching up on last minute work stuff before the holiday. I appreciate a lot of the thought and work going on here! 

Often when watching City play, I will notice that at different stages of the game, they will noticeably change what they are doing. I believe Pep is instructing the team to make wholesale tactical adjustments. You can see this often as they will sometimes exploit the right side of the pitch, with Walker playing wide and high, and mahrez cutting in aggressively. De Bruyne will move the ball to the right and play through balls. 

Then other times they will stop doing that. They will move to the left side, de bruyne seems to swap positions with gundogan, walker starts playing like an IWB, and Mahrez camps out and doesn't move from the right touchline. Whoever plays the left back starts marauding forward and sterling tries to do whatever he does. 

These are all examples of what I'm not calling:

Tactical Pieces

So, one of the big takeaways I have had lately, and this applies to the most recent discussion, is what I'm going to now term as Tactical Pieces. The more I have learned in FM, and the better I have become as a player due to running some of these threads, the more I strongly believe that you need a bigger plan when making changes within the tactics screen and your player selections. This seems like common sense, however, I have spent way too much time in game NOT doing this. Let's use some examples to illustrate my old way versus my new way.

I have always been good at watching full or comprehensive when things aren't clicking, and then I would use lots of tweaks to the tactic to try to get results I want. But typically, I would make one change here, another there, all kind of willy nilly (FYI that's a technical term . Like against a parked bus. I might over the course of 4 separate changes and 10 minutes of "game time" do the following things, never in any sort of determined fashion: lower tempo (confirm), increase team width (confirm) work ball in box (confirm), maybe change a few players from support to attack (confirm), up team mentality one notch(confirm).

Now, you can be successful sometimes making one switch when you see something that needs adapting. The best example IMO of a one-off tactical change in game is TEMPO. I frequently watch the opposition defenders when we are in possession to see how quickly they are closing us down, then adjust tempo up or down. This has been commented on by lots more than me, recently by @Kharza_FM and even me earlier in the thread. That makes a lot of sense. If the defense is pressing us very fast, then I will up tempo so that we pass the ball just before they close us down.

Now, let's look at a counter example, and what I will be meaning by Tactical Pieces. I have my base tactic (which I'll post below) that looks to exploit the middle. But sometimes our attack feels stale or I'll notice that the defense is starting to crowd the middle. In those cases, I have a pre-planned set of tactical changes that I will make to exploit the right flank and half spaces. This isn't me just randomly looking to change on or two things, instead, I will make a change that incorporates a few team instructions as well as some role and duty changes as well. Sometimes this might even require a substitution. The key difference is that I know that with my base tactic, I can plug a new "tactical piece" in to the base tactic, and if I make all of these changes together as one change, I know how they will all work together. But I have to make all of the changes together as one large change. 

I'm thinking of it like a large puzzle piece, and that piece contains all these related instruction and positional changes, and because I use them together frequently, I know what my expected output SHOULD be in game. Now of course, things don't work perfectly every time, but I know generally what these changes should do.

OK ENOUGH WORDS, I know, I feel like I was rambling here but I hope you got the point. Below I will post some examples of what I mean.

Base Tactic

I have settled upon what I feel like is my current best iteration for positional play as I'm currently seeing it in FM 21. Now, I don't believe you can have all things with one tactic, so some of our tactical puzzle pieces we will describe later will provide for some other variations of positional play this lacks.  We have great team shape, still retain good fluidity across a few different playmaking players, and good attacking variation, with goals and assists coming from multiple avenues. The below lacks the disciplined team shape, but is a balanced approach of it. The below lacks a large amount of possession recycling, but again it has a balanced amount. Each of these things we can make happen with different puzzle pieces.

 

With the above tactic we have 4 players working as our fluid players, whom are tasked with possession, passing, moving and interchanging. They are the RPM, AP-A, IW-S, and the DLF-A up top. Our standard version of this tactic has us in the fairly wide attacking width, as this is the most balanced approach between occasionally exploring flanks, but not bypassing our main playmakers in the middle. We use this combined with focus play through the middle to get our main AoMH to route play through the RPM and AP-A. The right player in the DLF-A spot really helps to ensure good possession and number superiority as well, making this version of the tactic work well even against a DM, which we have faced a lot. 

The CM-D offers a necessary holding midfielder and is our primary ball recycler. He also launches good cross field switches of play.

Our team width is established on the right by the WB told to stay wider, and both the FB and IF-A (stay wider) will offer width as needed. 

Compared to past versions I have posted, we are pressing much higher up the pitch, as we really are forcing a high press to incorporate a stronger total football game and increase our possession in the opposition half. 

 

Puzzle piece examples

Let's review some common changes. 

AP-A not being effective

Some games the AP-A is not effective, he could be getting marked strongly, or the RPM could be playing too much into his space and he's not getting as many touches. When this is happening, I want to get him more involved and force an overload through the middle, and so I use a middle overload tactical piece.  Here is a what I use, which has multiple combined setting changes.

• Drop AP-A to AP-S (this reduces his player mentality from very attacking to Positive) - This will encourage the #10 to be more involved in build up play
• RPM-s to DLP-S - This functionally changes the RPM from the heartbeat of the team to more of a holding midfielder, deep playmaker. This change shifts the ball recycling role away from the CM-d to the dlp-s, and also allows the AP-S to now become the primary playmaker, whereas before I view the RPM as the primary of the two.
• CM-d to CM-S - this change relinquishes the holding player to the DLP-s, and now the CM-s can be more free playing, to link up better in more advanced positions with the AP-S, even allowing some channel runs.
• With these three   P/R/D changes, I made the width changes posted. I'm essentially wanting to overload the middle now with these three support duty players, so I move to very narrow and a tick higher on our base tempo. We play shorter faster passes as we look to overload and get numerical superiority.
• We removed the focus play through the middle as that is no longer really necessary with very narrow, see below: 

  

 

So, all of the above changes I will make AT ONE POINT IN TIME,  this is a tactical puzzle piece, and if I slot it in to my base tactic, I know exactly what the team is going to try to do. I also know what game conditions will likely see me want to make this change. 

I've used the wording before of flipping the switch to a different tactic, this is essentially the same thing. But I'm starting to see if at both a greater perspective and more granularly, and I really like the  puzzle piece metaphor. All other things about the tactic are remaining similar, we still get width from the same players, the DLF will still look to support play, we still have someone holding and recycling, and the AML is still our big attacking threat post overload. But this puzzle piece has forced the issue of where we will look to attack instead of the more broadly balanced base tactic.

Example 2 - Right Flank Overload Tactical Piece

The base tactic and the above middle overload both do look to drive play through the central areas of the pitch. And sometimes the defense begins to really congest this area. I love when this happens, because then I can flip the switch, or plug in a new tactical piece. So below, is my right flank overload puzzle piece.

      

• Starting with p/r/d - you need to have the RPM become a DLP-s in order to retain a holding midfielder. But, the DLP-s will still move towards the right side of the center circle and support the right build up play due to focus down the right.
• CM-D becomes Mez-s, the mezzala is the half channel specialist. This PRD is perfect for moving forward, wide as needed, and into channels. Additionally, they will overlap the IW-s on narrow when it tactically makes sense.
• WB-S becomes CWB-s, this enables roaming from position, and the CWB-s will sometimes cut inside with ball whereas the WB-s will virtually never do this. This is helpful for when the Mez goes wide of the IW-s. 
• TI's, we have gone WIDE, to encourage expansive play all the way out to the touch line
• Focus play down the right, encourages both playmakers to push passes towards this flank, but also for them to drift wide towards that flank to seek out space to receive passes.
• Overlap Right - I like this one as it brings mentality of the CWB up to attacking. So on the right we have AMR balanced, Mez positive, and CWB-s attacking. This is great for compact team play, resulting in a really cohesive AoMH.
• The dlp s slides centrally and will gather recycle possession and often launch a cross field ball to the IF-A who is driving hard at the box.

 

Summary

So what's the big deal? Well, I've found that predetermined plans like the two tactical pieces shown above, will typically have better/more predictable results. They also help us to emulate different facets of positional play that we can't get to all happen at the same time because of limitations within the creator.

I have other tactical pieces, a more defensive version with 4 at the back recycling play, and a more aggressive one, but I just wanted to float these two examples and see what everyone thinks of this. 

 

I have a couple of questions regarding both the tactic itself and the tactical pieces.

 

The tactic looks like an evolution of your 4-1-4-1. Some of the PI's lead me to thinking this, specifically the stay wider instructions. Are you still using Hold Position on the FB-Su, IW-Su? The CM-De already has Hold Position but I assume you use him to mark opposition AMC's if they have one. It would make sense to me if you still had Roam From Position on the AP-At so I reckon that stayed. I think you would have removed the Dribble More instruction from your RPM as this may cause him to start to 'invade' (for want of a better term) other players areas, although I don't know if Move in Channels would be on or off.

 

Cross more often on the FB-Su could be either on or off depending on the player in the position. Pellegrini I would have it on for but a lesser crosser I'd turn it off.

 

Onto the Tactical Pieces. When you see a side that you suspect of playing in a certain way do you use one from the offset? As an example, you may see a 3-5-2 that should be strong in the middle. Do you use the Right Flank Overload from before kickoff? Personally, I would but I'd like to know if you back the base tactic and only adjust after the match has started?

[04texag]

13 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

hi everyone. mr @04texag you be motivated me to search for creating diamonds outside the 4-3-3 i obsessively picked as my formation for the last 2 versions of the game.  Thanks a lot for that!

Although i haven't figured out how i have to instruct the players to play the 4-2-3-1, mostly cause of my incapability on the game, i made my juventus team play quite good with a 4-4-2. We top the table and ronaldo has 33 goals in 30 appearances. 

that's the tactic so far 

i didn't go for the stoper-cover cb duet cause of the speed juventus cb's have. Also about creating different tactical plans and that discussion above, i've noticed that when kulusewski plays he creates more stability in the diamond and when bernandeschi plays, cause of his move into channels, we get a great advantage against a side with a back 5

keep the good work dude!

Thanks! Glad you are finding some ideas to try. I like a good 424 and ran one last year, even did a thread on it somewhere, emulating the brazilian style in the PL. It was very fun! Now, your tactic looks very aggressive, but if anyone could do it, Juventus in Serie A can, and your results show it's working!

12 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

Questions:

1) Does your CM/D have (or, alternatively, are you training him to develop) a PPM for switching the field?

2) When your RPM/S becomes a DLP/S and your CM/D becomes a CM/S, they pretty much switch functions. So do both players have (or are they training to develop) a PPM for switching the field as well? If so, does having two players side-by-side who can switch the field create confusion in the tactic, or does it help? 

3) Do you ever see a benefit from having your AP switch the field?

It seems to me that your sense of having these changes planned out in advance also extends to what you have key players doing in training.

No one currently has that PPM. Here's what I do, I use the player instruction for more direct passing. WIth our tactical setup, whichever player I give that PI to will be our only player with direct passing encourage. As the CM-d, he naturally has hold position and I add dribble less and more direct passing. This gets this functionality to work. For the DLP-s, I turn him vanilla, then add more direct passing. Importantly, with either player, i do NOT use takes more risks. I don't want them bombing the ball around unless they are likely to make the pass.

The AP I play very differently. I don't want him switching field, but rather putting on through balls. So this play does NOT have direct passing, but rather he DOES have takes more risks. 

7 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

@04texag - I find the Tactical Pieces more interesting because I would say I'm terrible at recognising what is going on in a game & adjusting to it. My latest game is a perfect example of that: 

I watch on Comprehensive Highlights & in my last game vs. Arsenal & it got to the point where the majority of highlights were of Arsenal attacking down my wing & I didn't know how to react. Looking at the Focus of Attacks graph afterwards, that was definitely the case. 42% down the left wing & 53% down the right wing. I didn't react & we gave away a free kick in a wide area that we conceded from & tied the game 1-1.

What would you do in that situation? 

For context, I was in a 4-3-3-0 vs. Arsenals 5-2-3 that they start with under Arteta. 

 

So a team with a back three and wingbacks is typically trying to remain defensively sound in the middle, then exploit the flanks with wingbacks marauding forward. Depending on everythign else, they might be trying to slam crosses in to a striker tandem with a TM, or they might try to control possession with their midfield 3. Once you saw them exploiting the wings, I would have sat back in a mid block, changed defensive width to normal (from my typical force outside), then use OI's to mark both wingbacks tight, close them down, and force them onto their weak, or non-side foot (CWB on right, force onto left foot). This would help to mitigate those players and force them to try to play through the middle, where the mid block would nullify them. Then hit on counter.

 

5 hours ago, nick1408 said:

I have a couple of questions regarding both the tactic itself and the tactical pieces.

 

The tactic looks like an evolution of your 4-1-4-1. Some of the PI's lead me to thinking this, specifically the stay wider instructions. Are you still using Hold Position on the FB-Su, IW-Su? The CM-De already has Hold Position but I assume you use him to mark opposition AMC's if they have one. It would make sense to me if you still had Roam From Position on the AP-At so I reckon that stayed. I think you would have removed the Dribble More instruction from your RPM as this may cause him to start to 'invade' (for want of a better term) other players areas, although I don't know if Move in Channels would be on or off.

 

Cross more often on the FB-Su could be either on or off depending on the player in the position. Pellegrini I would have it on for but a lesser crosser I'd turn it off.

 

Onto the Tactical Pieces. When you see a side that you suspect of playing in a certain way do you use one from the offset? As an example, you may see a 3-5-2 that should be strong in the middle. Do you use the Right Flank Overload from before kickoff? Personally, I would but I'd like to know if you back the base tactic and only adjust after the match has started?

A lot of the PI's remain the same as I always use them. Hold position is important to have on both flanks, although my base tactic has abandoned it on the right side only. The FB-s has it still. 

So both of my left backs are stellar at crossing, 16+, it's a requirement to play on my team that the backs have 15+ crossing.

Finally, and most important comment here, we are the Biancocelesti, and rising stars and multiple league wins now, we are top dog. This matters as teams are looking to play in response to us. I don't go into most games looking to change based on the opponent, as they are already going to be changing because we are the favorite. So I go into every game (with minor exceptions) playing our base tactic. Then based on what I see they are doing in response to us, I adapt and insert a tactical piece.

The exceptions are against other top flight teams where we are no longer a favorite or are on equal footing. This would be Juventus, Inter, Napoli in the Serie A (roma has fallen hard), and then CL games against the tough teams.

For example, when playing against opposing teams with a DM, unless they are an exception, I still play with a #10. I want to force them to neutralilze my star player, because that means I have a mismatch and numbers elsewhere, and we have more better players than the opposition. This creates chances for us. BUT, against PSG, when they lined up in a 4123 against us, ya, we switched things up. I ran my base 4141. 

[gunnerfan]

27 minutes ago, 04texag said:

No one currently has that PPM. Here's what I do, I use the player instruction for more direct passing. WIth our tactical setup, whichever player I give that PI to will be our only player with direct passing encourage. As the CM-d, he naturally has hold position and I add dribble less and more direct passing. This gets this functionality to work. For the DLP-s, I turn him vanilla, then add more direct passing. Importantly, with either player, i do NOT use takes more risks. I don't want them bombing the ball around unless they are likely to make the pass.

With DLP/S, I can't remove "take more risks". How do you do that?

[04texag]

1 minute ago, gunnerfan said:

With DLP/S, I can't remove "take more risks". How do you do that?

Maybe that's hard coded, my bad on that. The dlps is the vanilla, nothing changed, then just more direct passes. 

[04texag]

Question for any who follow this thread. Are there any versions of positional play that you want to see explored? I'm toying with the idea of doing a short break from my Lazio save (I will definitely keep it going) and doing a short maybe 1 season save as a replication of a form of positional play. Any interest in my doing somethign like this?

[sherifdinn_]

Perhaps a 4-3-3 with AML/Rs? Might be a little challenging because of the space between the striker and the MCs. Or maybe a 3-4-1-2?

[04texag]

4 minutes ago, sherifdinn_ said:

Perhaps a 4-3-3 with AML/Rs? Might be a little challenging because of the space between the striker and the MCs. Or maybe a 3-4-1-2?

I was toying with some ideas. One would be a 3 at the back, so yes something like a 3142 or 3412, another would be a true Pep style 433, 235 shape with a holding mid and IWBs.

[Murcon17]

I've been working or trying to make work a tactic where I'm trying to incorporate positional play but instead of the usual 2-3-5 attacking shape, I've been wanting it to be more of a hybrid between a 2-4-4 and the 2-3-5 through the movement of the left CM.

That's the current version of it, the aim is to attack assymetrically by having the winger provide the width on the left while having the RB provide the width on the right and then I'm trying to get the LCM to interchange between the front 4 of LW-ST-RW-RB and the middle 3 of LB,DM and RCM. But still toying around with the duties and roles of the RW and LCM. The LCM on Attack usually spends most of his time creating 2-3-5 shape whereas on support he's more prone to creating the 2-4-4, haven't yet found the trick to have him be truly in between the lines so to speak. Not sure if that would be something that would interest you, I'll definitely keep working on it as I kinda like the idea of creating like this hybrid 2-4-4 to 2-3-5 and also think it could spring the LCM free to be both goalthreat and assister.

Some of it is just hard to judge at the moment how well it works, as this is the 3rd season with Palermo and I got promoted twice by winning both Serie C Girone C and the Serie BKT, so the player quality is lacking quite a bit in some positions and making it hard to decide if its a tactic problem or just the players not being able to execute it well enough. Build-up play usually looks pretty good, but decisiveness in the final third is sometimes lacking. Ticking Pass into Space fixes it somewhat, which may be a sign that the player just aren't confident or good enough of pulling off those through balls for players to run onto without being encouraged to play risky.

[Jambo98]

I am pretty late to this particular party, but what a great thread  It brought back great memories for me of me doing a DNA thread back on..... um, maybe FM15 or so (how was that 6 years ago!) with Athletic.  Also puts me in mind of my slight, and not overly sucessful dabble with JDB last year - trying to creat a 451 which involved a lot of rotation and movement. I won Serie A with Fiorentina, but i found the ME was killing it - last year in Serie A, the smaller teams just passed the ball 200 times per game between centrebacks.....

 

[sherifdinn_]

17 minutes ago, 04texag said:

I was toying with some ideas. One would be a 3 at the back, so yes something like a 3142 or 3412, another would be a true Pep style 433, 235 shape with a holding mid and IWBs.

Indeed I have tried the IWB shape (it's a role that has its uses but for me, it seems to cause more problems that solutions) back on FM19. Got the shape spot on, buy didn't create enough and were quite stale overall. I believe my setup was:

DLF(a)

IF(a) - W(s)

DLP(s) - Mez (a)

DM(s)

WB (a) CD CD IWB(s)

Inspired off of Pep's Bayern and its  several variations according to formations faced. I'll try and dig up the article.

 

[sherifdinn_]

2 minutes ago, sherifdinn_ said:

I'll try and dig up the article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thetacticalanalyst.wordpress.com/2016/06/06/bayern-munich-a-mega-analysis/amp/

Lots of food for thought here but I got frustrated from the poor results. I'm not very good at making adjustments to a tactic based on what I see in-game, but hopefully someone can have a go.

(I hadn't noticed initially, but the article is written by the wonderful Istvan Beregi - a good writer for Spievercom).

[04texag]

2 hours ago, Murcon17 said:

I've been working or trying to make work a tactic where I'm trying to incorporate positional play but instead of the usual 2-3-5 attacking shape, I've been wanting it to be more of a hybrid between a 2-4-4 and the 2-3-5 through the movement of the left CM.

That's the current version of it, the aim is to attack assymetrically by having the winger provide the width on the left while having the RB provide the width on the right and then I'm trying to get the LCM to interchange between the front 4 of LW-ST-RW-RB and the middle 3 of LB,DM and RCM. But still toying around with the duties and roles of the RW and LCM. The LCM on Attack usually spends most of his time creating 2-3-5 shape whereas on support he's more prone to creating the 2-4-4, haven't yet found the trick to have him be truly in between the lines so to speak. Not sure if that would be something that would interest you, I'll definitely keep working on it as I kinda like the idea of creating like this hybrid 2-4-4 to 2-3-5 and also think it could spring the LCM free to be both goalthreat and assister.

Some of it is just hard to judge at the moment how well it works, as this is the 3rd season with Palermo and I got promoted twice by winning both Serie C Girone C and the Serie BKT, so the player quality is lacking quite a bit in some positions and making it hard to decide if its a tactic problem or just the players not being able to execute it well enough. Build-up play usually looks pretty good, but decisiveness in the final third is sometimes lacking. Ticking Pass into Space fixes it somewhat, which may be a sign that the player just aren't confident or good enough of pulling off those through balls for players to run onto without being encouraged to play risky.

 

Yes, something similar is what I would likely do with a 433 shape. The key is to get the assymetric to work well and be stable on both flanks. But, I would also like if doing this to use my tactical pieces to flip the assymetric attacking, essentially having three different tactics that focus the overload and switch players from left, right and then through the center. I think this would be a fun exercise and could mimic the Pep City that I watched heavily in the 2018-2019 campaign.

2 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

I am pretty late to this particular party, but what a great thread  It brought back great memories for me of me doing a DNA thread back on..... um, maybe FM15 or so (how was that 6 years ago!) with Athletic.  Also puts me in mind of my slight, and not overly sucessful dabble with JDB last year - trying to creat a 451 which involved a lot of rotation and movement. I won Serie A with Fiorentina, but i found the ME was killing it - last year in Serie A, the smaller teams just passed the ball 200 times per game between centrebacks.....

 

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the thread. I wasn't around back then, only started playing FM in the summer of 2018. I would love to see if you have anything you've been tinkering with in FM21.

2 hours ago, sherifdinn_ said:

Indeed I have tried the IWB shape (it's a role that has its uses but for me, it seems to cause more problems that solutions) back on FM19. Got the shape spot on, buy didn't create enough and were quite stale overall. I believe my setup was:

DLF(a)

IF(a) - W(s)

DLP(s) - Mez (a)

DM(s)

WB (a) CD CD IWB(s)

Inspired off of Pep's Bayern and its  several variations according to formations faced. I'll try and dig up the article.

 

IN both FM19 and 20, I tried at various points to get good 433's working, and had some limited success using an IWB with the overlap on same side. This idea came from @Rashidi. My issue for both 19 and 20 is that possession based teams got really stale once you had a team of quality and people would park the bus, and you'd maybe win 1-0. It was very drab, and even poor performing with the 0-0 and 1-1 draws. I never before felt FM'd as much as playing a tika-taka 433 in previous two versions.

 

1 hour ago, sherifdinn_ said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thetacticalanalyst.wordpress.com/2016/06/06/bayern-munich-a-mega-analysis/amp/

Lots of food for thought here but I got frustrated from the poor results. I'm not very good at making adjustments to a tactic based on what I see in-game, but hopefully someone can have a go.

(I hadn't noticed initially, but the article is written by the wonderful Istvan Beregi - a good writer for Spievercom).

I'll check this out. I love the spielverlagerung site, so will definitely read through this.

[04texag]

So one thought I'm having would be to emulate the three variations of Pep's general tactics from his three teams. This video is very fascinating:

 

The idea would be to do 3 separate single season saves, finding a decent team that could do each separate representation. It would take me a bit to research the best team or team I would enjoy doing each with, but I think it could be fun and enlightening.

[nidhar.ram]

1 hour ago, 04texag said:

So one thought I'm having would be to emulate the three variations of Pep's general tactics from his three teams. This video is very fascinating:

 

The idea would be to do 3 separate single season saves, finding a decent team that could do each separate representation. It would take me a bit to research the best team or team I would enjoy doing each with, but I think it could be fun and enlightening.

Nice video that. I would suggest you have a look at Atleti's squad. They have good all round midfielders and pacey and creative forwards/wingers.

Real Soceidad is another great club with plenty of youth talents that you can mould to however you like. But it may be a long term save compared to Atleti who have a better squad assembled for the first season. Let us know how it goes if you decide to go with either of these teams.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

@04texagOne of the long term goals of my Deportivo La Coruna save has been the gradual implementation of a style of play modeled after Pep's Barcelona. This is where I am at currently and maybe it'll help (or not). Note that it is inverted by comparison to the inspiration as my player of the Dani Alves mould is the left back, Pepe.

PIs: Center-backs have Stay Wider, False Nine has both Moves Into Channels and Roam From Position.

This season I've incorporated Work Ball Into Box (and naturally Be More Expressive to go along with it) and Hold Shape. The primary driver behind that decision is both of these help to bring the False Nine into the game and getting touches of the ball. Has achieved this pretty well, I think.

Tinkering with that AML slot coming centrally when appropriate but haven't hit on a sufficient solution to that yet. Also trying out a Mez(At) for the Iniesta role this season but have been less than impressed compared to FM 20 for that role. Thoughts?

Two other observations at the moment is that I feel like too much of the play goes through the flanks - the obvious answer there is Focus Play Through The Middle but I have my reservations on that front. The other is that I find we occasionally pass ourselves into a 'hole' that can't be played out of, typically when the ball is on the flanks during build up play (that is to say, a wide player receives the ball and players naturally gravitate but come very narrow and thus easy to pen in). This is of course a result of the Very Narrow width primarily and whilst it's conventual wisdom to pair shorter passing with a narrower width, I'm wondering if a rethink may be in order. How have people found that in Fm21?

Edit: Apologies, just saw you'd started a new thread on the subject. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by NotSoSpecialOne

[04texag]

13 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

@04texagOne of the long term goals of my Deportivo La Coruna save has been the gradual implementation of a style of play modeled after Pep's Barcelona. This is where I am at currently and maybe it'll help (or not). Note that it is inverted by comparison to the inspiration as my player of the Dani Alves mould is the left back, Pepe.

PIs: Center-backs have Stay Wider, False Nine has both Moves Into Channels and Roam From Position.

This season I've incorporated Work Ball Into Box (and naturally Be More Expressive to go along with it) and Hold Shape. The primary driver behind that decision is both of these help to bring the False Nine into the game and getting touches of the ball. Has achieved this pretty well, I think.

Tinkering with that AML slot coming centrally when appropriate but haven't hit on a sufficient solution to that yet. Also trying out a Mez(At) for the Iniesta role this season but have been less than impressed compared to FM 20 for that role. Thoughts?

Two other observations at the moment is that I feel like too much of the play goes through the flanks - the obvious answer there is Focus Play Through The Middle but I have my reservations on that front. The other is that I find we occasionally pass ourselves into a 'hole' that can't be played out of, typically when the ball is on the flanks during build up play (that is to say, a wide player receives the ball and players naturally gravitate but come very narrow and thus easy to pen in). This is of course a result of the Very Narrow width primarily and whilst it's conventual wisdom to pair shorter passing with a narrower width, I'm wondering if a rethink may be in order. How have people found that in Fm21?

Edit: Apologies, just saw you'd started a new thread on the subject. 

Good stuff, some similarities here with what I'm about to post for the first tactic. I like to see how you've been interpreting it!

[Fox-7-]

20 hours ago, 04texag said:

Question for any who follow this thread. Are there any versions of positional play that you want to see explored? I'm toying with the idea of doing a short break from my Lazio save (I will definitely keep it going) and doing a short maybe 1 season save as a replication of a form of positional play. Any interest in my doing somethign like this?

Hi, I'm following this thread and found it very useful.

In my FM21 I'm trying a save with Juventus to implement Pirlo's 4-4-2.

In his coaching course's thesis he basically recall the PP's fundamentals,and something could also be seen on the pitch despite the Up&Downs results in this first months of his career.

I think this could be interesting to try on FM because starting from the 4-4-2 defensive shape to obtain the 3+2 in the balancing players and the 4+1 in the offensive players it's tricky especially for the W position (McKennie IRL in the last matches, who defends wide on the FB and attacks in the halfspaces or centrally but totally not like an IW because he's not a ball carrier/dribbler)

I'm trying something like this

4-4-2,from right to left:

Szczesny

Cuadrado De Ligt Bonucci Danilo

Ramsey Arthur Bentancur Chiesa

Ronaldo Morata

 

SK-S 

FB-a BPD-d BPD-d IWB-d

WM-s DLP-s CM-s W-a

CF-a CF-s

 

Changes:when A.Sandro plays Cuadrado goes on the beach and the system switch to the left flank,when Dybala plays is set as a DLF-s

 

So in possession the system became like this

SK

BPD-BPD-IWB

DLP-CM

FB WM CF W

CF

 

Still working on TIs and PIs,obviously possess-oriented and looking for high pressure.

 

Could this be done and result as a Positional Play approach?

[NotSoSpecialOne]

It has been a very long and gradual journey so far - currently into season 7 in charge. Still not there yet but this has been probably the most rewarding save I've had in a long time so no complaints.

Also if you prefer, because it's probably more relevant there, I'm happy to post in the other thread instead - don't want to derail this unnecessarily. 

[Jambo98]

19 hours ago, 04texag said:

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the thread. I wasn't around back then, only started playing FM in the summer of 2018. I would love to see if you have anything you've been tinkering with in FM21.

Yeah it seems like so long ago...... had a bit of fun re-reading the opening posts, seeing how niave i was back then

 

In terms of this year, i have not done much, but i am looking at updating  something i had fun with for a year or two early in last years game - the good old flat 451. Below is an old image i found of how i had it setup:

##

Its probably not to difficult to work out how it was designed to play, but i will likely make some changes to it. The WP(s) was also a WM(d) and WM(s) at various times, and i do recall i struggle to get the MEZ working effectively, but lets see how this years game differs. The striker is always a problem in this setup as well.....

[04texag]

4 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Yeah it seems like so long ago...... had a bit of fun re-reading the opening posts, seeing how niave i was back then

 

In terms of this year, i have not done much, but i am looking at updating  something i had fun with for a year or two early in last years game - the good old flat 451. Below is an old image i found of how i had it setup:

##

Its probably not to difficult to work out how it was designed to play, but i will likely make some changes to it. The WP(s) was also a WM(d) and WM(s) at various times, and i do recall i struggle to get the MEZ working effectively, but lets see how this years game differs. The striker is always a problem in this setup as well.....

This 451 looks fun. After you play some with it would love to hear how it's performing.

 

[Jambo98]

So uh the 451 took a bit of a twist before it even got started...... i still have a version of it but at the moment im starting out with something a little more....... out there  

As you can obviously guess by the screenshot, the club i chose was RBL in Germany.  I will be honest, i did not give it a huge amount of thought, other than liking that they are a big club, but perhaps not truley top 2 in germany yet. I knew they had a lot of good players, and i felt that a few were well suited to my plan.......... but i was actually sadly shocked when i took over and fully analysed the squad.

My "club DNA", for now, is very simple. 

• We will press high and hard. Perhaps not quite heavy metal, but we will be "in the face" of opponents (the 451 last year started out as a "low block" - not this time
• We will encourage movement and rotation in attack 
• We will prioritise, and require, technically proficient football players across all "non defender" roles (so everyone other than the 3 true defenders)
• To avoid getting over complicated at this point, i picked out 4 "base" attributes that i consider essential for "non defender" players in my team
  • Passing - You must be proficient in the basic art of passing the ball
  • First touch - Its kinda vital you control the passes when they reach you
  • Composure - So key on the football field, i need and want players who wont panic in key moments
  • Off the ball - Given that we want to create attacking rotations, we need players who understand where to be when we are in possession - make those runs, make that in to out movement, etc

RBL are set up to be........kinda the opposite to all but the first point above They have several, at first glance, very "good" players, who, when you look under the cover, are far more physical and hard working than they are technically proficient. Guys like Poulsen, Laimer, Halstenber, Klostermann and even to some extent Sabitzer and Kampl - these are key parts of what RBL have achieved..... but they dont fit what we want. So this is going to be quite the challenge........

 

 

 

[ich bin Lior]

Hey, so first of all been a big fan of the fm20 topic, but because I did not play the game in those latter stages I did not participated in the topic.

 

I love this thinking of a tactic, I play a very weak lower level team, I'm currently in the 4th tier of the dutch league.

 

Because my players are really weak technically, I'm looking to benefit in passing, playing smarter, punishing the opposition closing down bad.
I want to always try to take the number superiority against them in every chance I get - making my players play smarter, and not "technically better".

How should I do that ? I know it wont be an easy thing to implement in such a weak side but I have loads of time and wanna develop this style till I reach better levels.

 

Really looking forward for your take on what I can do.

 

Thanks for the great read you gave me both on the FM20 topic and in this one aswell !

[-Jef-]

To keep the train going, this are few goals and/or bits of action from my Hajduk save.

Forwards have roam, cm-s have shoot less often and sometimes move into channels

 

I know it's a cluster of photos but the topic and @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s topic made me, again, revisit it after was not close to winning the league and I'm extremely happy that I went and got this going again!

[lipebtavares]

On 1/16/2021 at 6:10 PM, -Jef- said:

To keep the train going, this are few goals and/or bits of action from my Hajduk save.

Forwards have roam, cm-s have shoot less often and sometimes move into channels

 

I know it's a cluster of photos but the topic and @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s topic made me, again, revisit it after was not close to winning the league and I'm extremely happy that I went and got this going again!

Could you put images of the individual instructions?

[-Jef-]

Forwards(striker, wingers) have roam, cm-s have shoot less often and sometimes move into channels v weaker opponents, also sometimes hold position v stronger opponents

@lipebtavares

[gunnerfan]

47 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

Forwards(striker, wingers) have roam, cm-s have shoot less often and sometimes move into channels v weaker opponents, also sometimes hold position v stronger opponents

@lipebtavares

A couple of things caught my eye. Two BPDs, with no one covering? Even with a sweeper/keeper, that seems risky, especially with no other players with defensive roles. Also, two CM/S: how do they manage when you need additional punch or playmaking up front or defensive help? Finally, with the entire midfield on support duty, doesn't the AF/A get isolated?

[-Jef-]

On 18/01/2021 at 02:44, gunnerfan said:

A couple of things caught my eye. Two BPDs, with no one covering? Even with a sweeper/keeper, that seems risky, especially with no other players with defensive roles. Also, two CM/S: how do they manage when you need additional punch or playmaking up front or defensive help? Finally, with the entire midfield on support duty, doesn't the AF/A get isolated?

I have no issues if opponent is playing with one striker having two BPD. Tho I do not see the issue with having BPD, not sure how that matters when defending? If I am seeing that I have trouble with opponent I usually place both CM into DM strata as DM-S to provide more cover or one of fullbacks (depends who is playing) as FB-S (with stay narrow) so he's more defensive.

Both CM provide plenty of playmaking and actually goalscoring since they push up to 20-25-30 meters late in buildup but are deeper in early buildup/counterattack. I put hold position if I need more defensive help and if that doesn't help I move them to DM strata.

Regarding AF-A, I sometimes put him as CF-S or PF-S depending who plays if I do notice that he doesn't get enough chances. I have two amazing strikers that are the pure definition of complete forward and another one that is hybrid between poacher and pressing forward.

He is not isolated in buildup but doesn't press much as AF is basically my best player.

I posted this in my career thread, this is one of the goals. Might help you with some of the questions. 17 and 4 are CM-S, 16 is AP-S, 11 is AF.

[04texag]

On 16/01/2021 at 15:10, -Jef- said:

To keep the train going, this are few goals and/or bits of action from my Hajduk save.

Forwards have roam, cm-s have shoot less often and sometimes move into channels

 

I know it's a cluster of photos but the topic and @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s topic made me, again, revisit it after was not close to winning the league and I'm extremely happy that I went and got this going again!

Those goals are looking great! I love the quick passing and then through balls for a guy running in on goal! Amazing stuff!

[joe3491]

@04texag really enjoying your posts and various threads - have been away from FM for a while and really wanted to get a possession tactic running this time round - however I am finding it difficult to follow which PIs are used in which tactic as its spread over a number of threads. Do you have a place where you share your tactics for dl so I can look them over and compare them myself. 

[04texag]

Hello hello.

Ive been away for a good few months. I've been playing Eve Online, building up my own corp and building a YouTube channel while I do so. It's been great fun, but got me thinking, especially with footba about to break for summer, maybe I should start up a NEW total football save project, and this time document it both here and on my new youtube channel, adding some video logs and explanations to go alongside the posts. 

 

Thoughts, interested in seeing something like this? It's a fair bit of work to pull this stuff off, but it's also fun as long as people are participating and benefitting from it. 

 

So, yes no on idea? Also, I need some good ideas for a club to do this with. 

I really am liking the idea of a team that's one tier below the top. So a championship team, or Spain's league 2, etc. Spend a year or two on building up young prospects, starting to train and invest in growing the club. Working the way up. All while holding onto and building that team mentality. (a la Bielsa maybe)

 

 

 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

My Deportivo La Coruna save was started along similar principles and has been a fun journey so I can definitely recommend doing something like that.

[nidhar.ram]

Deportivo La Coruna.. see if you can bring the glory days back to the club.

[04texag]

1 hour ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

My Deportivo La Coruna save was started along similar principles and has been a fun journey so I can definitely recommend doing something like that.

Just fired up a save with Coruna to see what they have. I think they have a workable group. This is a good option 1.

[gunnerfan]

Sounds like a great idea. I would definitely follow. Either Spain League 2 or a bottom half side in La Liga.

[Luizinho]

8 hours ago, 04texag said:

Hello hello.

Ive been away for a good few months. I've been playing Eve Online, building up my own corp and building a YouTube channel while I do so. It's been great fun, but got me thinking, especially with footba about to break for summer, maybe I should start up a NEW total football save project, and this time document it both here and on my new youtube channel, adding some video logs and explanations to go alongside the posts. 

 

Thoughts, interested in seeing something like this? It's a fair bit of work to pull this stuff off, but it's also fun as long as people are participating and benefitting from it. 

 

So, yes no on idea? Also, I need some good ideas for a club to do this with. 

I really am liking the idea of a team that's one tier below the top. So a championship team, or Spain's league 2, etc. Spend a year or two on building up young prospects, starting to train and invest in growing the club. Working the way up. All while holding onto and building that team mentality. (a la Bielsa maybe)

 

 

 

Very keen for a YouTube series!

[Fantasista10]

I just wanted to show my appreciation for this thread once again. 
 

It’s been a while since I implemented any sort of JDP principles on FM as I’ve been doing a sort of ‘Road to Glory’ save with Dulwich Hamlet - taking them from the Vanarama South to (hopefully) the PL. 

A little background:

After overachieving with a counter attacking/transitional system which we mainly set up in a 4-4-2 (occasionally played a more conservative 4–3-3), we began to hit a wall in our debut season in League 1. Unable to really strengthen the squad that much, and losing some key players, I believe our style was becoming ineffective. We kept lumping the ball up field with no great success, and as a result just kept inviting pressure.

Suddenly, I did not recognise this team as one of ‘my teams’. We weren’t playing the kind of football I want to see, nor was it successful. 
 

So after an average start (sitting 10th in the table when predicted 23rd is good - but not in comparison to finishing top every season beforehand)  and dissatisfied with the play style, I reverted to a way of playing which was much more familiar to me, and much more enjoyable. 
 

Out of pure laziness and a bit of stupidity, I loaded up the exact same JDP tactic I had used on an old Benfica save. Let’s just say I was shocked! I didn’t expect my Dulwich side to be able to pull it off, but we did. So far it’s been amazing to watch - by far the best football we have played. Defensively it could improve, but I do have the 2nd worst squad in the league. 

Results/Performances:

So as it stands we are sitting 2nd in League 1 and things are looking promising: 

The results highlighted in orange are since the change to a JDP system. The Papa John’s game was with my reserve players who most definitely aren’t suited to this style but since it wasn’t an important game, I wanted to see how they did. We lost narrowly to Forest Green even though our xG was much better than theirs. 
 

You can see the improvement in form, and results in terms of goals scored, in comparison to our earlier results. The Stockport game was a freak game against the worst team in the league, and Millwall got FM’d by us. So even though we were winning some games, we got lucky and it didn’t seem sustainable (hence the 4 game loss streak). 

Over the last month of using the system, you can see how threatening we are going forward: 

I am slightly concerned by the xGA but there are some tweaks I’ve made to try and tighten the defence a little. However, considering my players abilities I am very pleased. It is producing some of the best football I’ve seen in this match engine! 
 

I hope this has shown that positional play can work at lower levels. I obviously need to test this over a season and see how we do, but for now it’s encouraging. I would say it takes a lot of in game management and tweaks to understand when and what to change as this is a risky approach if you haven’t got the right personnel. 

[gunnerfan]

Has anyone run a system like this with a 4-1-3-2? I have roster-based reasons to be interested in it.

[_mxrky]

Okay  i'm attempting to implement a system that likelly won't work, but is essentially a replication of arteta's arsenal. I just got appointed as England manager

 

The aim is to press in a 442. Hence the assymetric defensive shape.  Build up in a 3 at the back. The full back sits narrow to hopefully form a back 3, whilst the right cb is instructed to stay wider in the build up.  Mezzala overloads on the  left with the inside forward whilst Kane drops deep. The am operates in the left half space, while the mezzala operates in the right. The inverted winger on the right stays wide, whilst the wing back overlaps. 

In theory, this could work, but I will test and see. With international football the tactical familiarity is really bad. I could put rice in the CM Strata as well, but i will see how it plays out first. 
 

edit: played a couple and decided to move the dm to cm strata. The fb doesn’t quite operate as a third cb but it is close enough. The dlf attack was pretty ineffectual. Changed it to advanced forward attack. Not really happy with the way my team are pressing. Tempted to actually move the amc to striker and have it drop deep as a f9 or trequeartista. Might just use a split block on the front 4 instead

Edited July 12, 2021 by _mxrky

[04texag]

So definitely been away from game and forums for awhile. Needed a break. I've been playing that coruna save some but really missing my Lazio squad. 

 

I've been playing around with the tactic some more. Coming to a conclusion that with all of the specific roles and duties, and individual PIs, the players already can be setup to play how I want. I think the TIs at that point are just too much. I've been trying things out playing with almost all TI removed. Only putting one or two in each section that seem most crucial to overall style. So far looking good. Is it enough to put an update out in this thread, perhaps. 

Gad to see others still reading the thread. 

[04texag]

Things are looking really good with how the team is playing, and beyond that, getting more consistent results on the field, which has always been a frustration of mine. The team is playing to the caliber I believe they should be.

To top it off, I'm having fun again in FM.

 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Good to have you back bud 

[04texag]

Ok, so let's do this. As I mentioned, I'm playing again, and having fun, as the results are good, the play is what I want to see. Some of this maybe has been some ME updates, but also, I think tweaks to the tactic, as before I stripped almost all of the TI's out, the tactic was playing rather stale.

With what I'm doing, I have basically customized PRD to a fine degree, with a lot of PI's to really get guys to stay in certain positions and/or behave certain ways. I think with all of that going on, having too many TI's was way too redundant, but also bogging the system down. What we have now, is the players are playing the game more fast paced and free flowing, yet due to PI's on top of the PRD, they are still playing how I want them to. We have had some good results against top flight teams, and I'm happy with what I'm watching on screen. There have been countless sequences of play that have not led to goals, but have been worthy highlights due to sharp passing, good switches of play, etc.

You'll notice here that the TI's are as minimal as I can make them. And I have only selected what I view as tactic defining items.

In Possession

Dribble less encourages more 1 and 2 touch passing, same with shorter passing, which also helps keep possession. 

In transition

Counter press, pretty obvious here but we want to win the ball back asap when we lose it

Out of possession

We have a higher line of engagement and more urgent pressing. These go hand in hand with everything else. Sometimes, I will also move the defensive line to high and when I do that I add Use offside trap.

 

So that's it for TIs. Now, the PIs are very important. Here they are, sorry lots of pics is best way to do this. The reason behind most of these has already been discussed elsewhere, so ask if you have any questions.

  

 

[04texag]

Here are some data and analysis on the recent performance.

Recent 1-0 against Juventus was pretty one sided afair, even though it finished 1-0. We even missed a penalty, gasp.

They got some shots off, but most of them were way outside the box, thus their low xG. Where as our's is high, partly because of the penalty chance. But look at our shot map. Our shots are all coming in very dangerous locations.

From those numbers you can tell we are getting lots of chances from open play and with kicked shots, not just crossing in for headers.

 

 

[TheGreatest]

Really interested to know why you use AF in short passing system? It's a role I'd use when the underdog and I just wanna play long balls into space whenever I win the ball.

[04texag]

17 minutes ago, TheGreatest said:

Really interested to know why you use AF in short passing system? It's a role I'd use when the underdog and I just wanna play long balls into space whenever I win the ball.

I've been over this somewhere before. But for positional play, I need to control areas of the pitch, and the best way to stretch the defense is to have the center forward higher up the pitch to create space by pinning the defensive line as close to goal as possible. 

[TheGreatest]

16 minutes ago, 04texag said:

I've been over this somewhere before. But for positional play, I need to control areas of the pitch, and the best way to stretch the defense is to have the center forward higher up the pitch to create space by pinning the defensive line as close to goal as possible. 

So when you are camping in the opponent's half he is still pinning back their line?

[zlatanera]

I was going to praise your 'minimalist' tactic until I realised that once you add up the PIs too you have almost double what I have over in my FM19 thread 

I'm actually considering copying that into my 3rd tactic slot to see how it translates backwards in time, but I know there were some mentality changes. If I have it right - and feel free to correct me - IW has a lower mentality than IF, but otherwise they'll all be the same as FM19? (Obviously I also know Focus Play... doesn't affect player mentality, but you're not using it). If so, what is the mentality of your IW?

I might steal Stay Wider on a centre-back, see if it prevents too much Spain-esque passing among the defenders and defensive midfielder.

I'm curious about the choice of Cross More Often on Lazzari and Wijndal though?