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Evaluating a Lower League squad to determine what formations are possible


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  • Rashidi changed the title to Evaluating a Lower League squad to determine what formations are possible

More great stuff :)

One thing I'm not clear on is how does one see the impact Mentals such as Bravery and Determination have in the game itself? It doesn't seem very obvious to me compared to, for example, seeing someone with high Jumping Reach winning a header. To put it another way, if you have two central defenders, one with Bravery 1 and the other 20, and all other stats the same, how would this manifest itself during a match? Would one see the Bravery 1 defender pulling out of tackles or is it more a case of looking at tackle win % over the course of a season? 

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30 minutes ago, lanewalk said:

More great stuff :)

One thing I'm not clear on is how does one see the impact Mentals such as Bravery and Determination have in the game itself? It doesn't seem very obvious to me compared to, for example, seeing someone with high Jumping Reach winning a header. To put it another way, if you have two central defenders, one with Bravery 1 and the other 20, and all other stats the same, how would this manifest itself during a match? Would one see the Bravery 1 defender pulling out of tackles or is it more a case of looking at tackle win % over the course of a season? 

Essentially bravery is an attribute that one would expect a defender to have. He needs to be brave to go into a sliding challenge, he needs good technique to pull it off.

Basically the game is meant to simulate human behaviour. Human behaviour always starts with the decision, and then the act of doing it. So in this game, we need to start with the mental, then the physical capacity to do it and finally the technical skills to finish it off. 
 

So when we go back to your example, a defender with low bravery but good jumping reach, may be great in the air when there is no one challenging him for it. Say two players jump for a cross one who has higher aggression than another. The one with low bravery could lose out. Then we have support players, if you want someone to come back and defend this is another factor that needs to be considered. 

Determination is the mother of all attributes, it influences how a player performs on the pitch and off the pitch. A player with low determination may decide that enough is enough if the team is 3 down. Determination also has a knock on effect on development, though this aspect is a subset of professionalism.

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Thanks @Rashidi

That makes sense, as so often with this game then, it is about the combination of factors (in this case attributes) that lead to the outcome (as irl), much as I would like to able to pin things down to a single cause. 

I guess there is a relationship between Aggression and Bravery as they seem very similar. In the case of the sliding tackle I can see it's the defender taking the risk and therefore needing the Bravery. But in the case of going for header the risk of injury would be more equal so wouldn't both Attacker and Defender need some combination of Aggression and Bravery? Or does the Attacker only need Aggression?

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17 minutes ago, lanewalk said:

Thanks @Rashidi

That makes sense, as so often with this game then, it is about the combination of factors (in this case attributes) that lead to the outcome (as irl), much as I would like to able to pin things down to a single cause. 

I guess there is a relationship between Aggression and Bravery as they seem very similar. In the case of the sliding tackle I can see it's the defender taking the risk and therefore needing the Bravery. But in the case of going for header the risk of injury would be more equal so wouldn't both Attacker and Defender need some combination of Aggression and Bravery? Or does the Attacker only need Aggression?

Here you could have other factors in play, determination now kicks in. How determined is he to go for that, decisions could factor in as well, did he come off an injury or is he carrying a knock. Then we have natural fitness. 

The game is dynamic, the best way to approach it is to put yourself in their shows and ask yourself what could stop you. I find that to be the easiest way. The game isn't zero sum.

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@llama3In a flat 4 very very rarely, I much prefer keeping them flat, not so in a back three where i tend to play with stopper/cover/stopper in very aggressive systems or defend/cover/defend in less aggressive setups.

I might be using a very attacking system later on my stream to try some things out later, its one of the more aggressive ones that uses the stopper/cover/stopper strategy. That system also uses Opposition Instructions a fair bit. I don't use the assistant manager's advice instead opting to go my own way. I will be explaining this as well.

Team instructions need to be explained again cos how we use them in the main still remains the same. However for more intricate overloads focus and how it works with attacking width+roles needs to be considered.

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Really good set of posts, @Rashidi. When you look at a roster or a single player and put some thought into what they can do well (and what they can't), then you can really get them to perform above their "star rating". Sometimes I can't help but laugh at some of the posts where a coach is trying to play a certain style but none of their players are suitable to the vision. Like trying to force the square peg through the round hole.

I just picked up FM21 and am playing a journeyman for this version. Started unemployed, and got picked up by IK Sirius, the bottom team in the Swedish Premier team, well on their way to relegation with 9 games to right the ship. Roster is junk. Not a single striker worth mention and one of the top 2 players is out, injured. Far and away, my player best available is Vecchia. Unfortunately, he is both the best creator and best scorer. This guy is going to need to do everything if we are going to make it. 

3a.jpg

Well with no good strikers and my best scorer, creator, and player in a wide midfielder role, I needed to get a bit creative in my tactics. If there aren't any good strikers, then I'm not going to force it by playing one. I also need to scheme Vecchia into both scoring position and in position to get the ball early create for the team. I opt for a 4-6-0 strikerless formation that I had success with in FM16 because I dont have a striker worth putting on the field. Then, in order to get Vecchia into and around the box, I'm putting him into an IW(a) role so that he can be as dangerous as possible. Also because he already has the cut inside from left move, I'm opting for him at ML instead of MR. In order to give Vecchia space to work in and improve his matchup, I'm going to try to shift the defense away from him by using the Mez(a) out of the MCR. This will pull the opposing CDs away from my most dangerous player and match him more often against the opposing DR, which is a more favorable matchup. Its particularly favorable as Vecchia is going to be trying to beat the DR inside and that DR isn't going to have CD support. I play the AMC as a SS(a) with Roam from position so that he drifts into the space on the right side vacated by the Mez(a) and will get pushed there further by Vecchia coming inside. This will force the CD to travel with the AMC and stress the opposing team's shape. The MR needs to play a winger role to create space for the Mez(a) and pull the DR away from being able to mark out the Mez(a). This basically finishes the effect. We pull the entire defense to our right side. The MR winger pulls the DR. This forces the CD to step out to cover the Mez(a). And with the AMC on roam shifting right too, he is going to pull the only remaining CD defender. With all these players looking to get forward on the right side, we have the DR play a bit of a pivot role behind so that they can pass back if they need to. 

4.jpg

We can see it in action here:

5a.jpg

The ML (Vecchia) is moving inside with options of where to run into space. He can try to beat his man and run through the defense or across the face of the defense. Or he can use the space in front of the defense, and put in a pass to one of the 3 players on the right side that are all matchup one-on-one with only a single player to beat between them and the goal utilizing a Trips Deep passing concept. In this play, he opts a pass behind the defense, the Mez(a) beats his man, and we get a goal.

5b.jpg

Team went 5-0-4 to finish the season and stay up. Had 10 goals for, 5 goals against. After scoring 1 goal and no assists in the first 21 games of the season, Vecchia led the team with 5 goals and 3 assists in the final 9 games.

Seriously, y'all. Take a bit of time to look over the roster. And do yourself a favor by building the tactic around the roster, rather than building the tactic despite the roster.

Edited by VinceLombardi
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24 minutes ago, VinceLombardi said:

When you look at a roster or a single player and put some thought into what they can do well (and what they can't), then you can really get them to perform above their "star rating"

This is worth more than its weight in gold. So few people actually understand this.

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For lower, lower leagues I can't agree more with the emphasis on taking advantage of physical attributes. 

Similar to an example mentioned earlier in the thread, in FM20 (dafuge challenge) I had a 6 foot 5 full-back and he was priceless at set-pieces. He was my second top goalscorer two seasons in a row, almost primarily from corners (where of course everyone else was a decoy for him, or he became a decoy for them...), and he became my late-game-chasing-a-goal-emergency-Target Man. He wasn't particularly good at much else, but that physical advantage was crucial.

This was Vanarama South, no money and no reputation, so every possible advantage had to be utilised!

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On 19/11/2020 at 02:31, Boydo said:

@Rashidi Do you have any training tips for lower league management? I only have four slots per week so try and fit in a general, an attacking, a defensive and then a match prep.

Like @kingjerichomentioned training in lower leagues is dependant on facilities and coaches. Then you have the limited slots. Finally you aren't really sure who will be around the following season.

Normally I just do general sessions if I need to and these involve the Overall session.  Then I also include match prep for games where I can. I wouldn't worry too much about specialised training programs either.  Additional focus training normally usually involves improving acceleration for younger players and positioning and off the ball  for older ones.

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On 15/11/2020 at 20:53, VinceLombardi said:

Seriously, y'all. Take a bit of time to look over the roster. And do yourself a favor by building the tactic around the roster, rather than building the tactic despite the roster.

On 15/11/2020 at 21:18, Rashidi said:

This is worth more than its weight in gold. So few people actually understand this.


Obviously I cannot speak for everyone else, but in my opinion, the challenge with really bad teams and players for me is that no matter how I set things up or what I try to make them, the end result is somewhat the same; 
- I win games when one or more players play individually great.
- I lose when one or more players make giant mistakes leading to goals. 
- If both things occur, I end up with 6+ goal total games that is total chaos. 

So even if (seemingly) have things set up in a way that makes sense for the players I have, and the patterns I want occur, it rarely matters in the end. The mistakes leading to goal I see in Vanarama level teams are so brain dead I cannot even begin to describe it. 

So my questions then become: 
1) Can I set up my team in a way that limits or eliminates this? These mistakes are arguably part of their strengths and weaknesses, so surely I should be able to mitigate it no? From my (possibly flawed) experience, allowing the enemy team to attack and look for counters leads to large amounts of goals conceded, as my defenders simply aren't good enough to defend consistently. 
2) Conversely, most goals come as a result of the enemy team going for a nap or some ridiculous solo effort. Stringing together actual attacks seem farfetched outside of the stray game here and there. 

Cheers.

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On 21/11/2020 at 16:14, Christopher S said:

 


Obviously I cannot speak for everyone else, but in my opinion, the challenge with really bad teams and players for me is that no matter how I set things up or what I try to make them, the end result is somewhat the same; 
- I win games when one or more players play individually great.
- I lose when one or more players make giant mistakes leading to goals. 
- If both things occur, I end up with 6+ goal total games that is total chaos. 

So even if (seemingly) have things set up in a way that makes sense for the players I have, and the patterns I want occur, it rarely matters in the end. The mistakes leading to goal I see in Vanarama level teams are so brain dead I cannot even begin to describe it. 

So my questions then become: 
1) Can I set up my team in a way that limits or eliminates this? These mistakes are arguably part of their strengths and weaknesses, so surely I should be able to mitigate it no? From my (possibly flawed) experience, allowing the enemy team to attack and look for counters leads to large amounts of goals conceded, as my defenders simply aren't good enough to defend consistently. 
2) Conversely, most goals come as a result of the enemy team going for a nap or some ridiculous solo effort. Stringing together actual attacks seem farfetched outside of the stray game here and there. 

Cheers.

I think the best way to combat some of this is consider each step (eg. pass, dribble, etc) in an attack an opportunity to fail/make a mistake. With that mindset, your goal becomes to complete your attacks with as few moves, while maximizing the opponents moves to create a successful attack. 

Said another way, if you get a reasonable chance on goal with 3 passes and you opponent needs 10 passes and a dribble to get the same opportunity, you are going to have a lot more success -- especially in the lower leagues with players that can't do it all themselves. 

That all starts in the midfield and how you engage the opposing team in defense, and conversely taking everything the opponent offers you on offense moving the ball into an attacking position. It's really all about the middle third, imo.

Edit:

As a bit more on this and in line with the OP, I think a real key to making this work is individual evaluations of the players. There are some player's that you are going to start that are just going to be average or subaverage for your level. You don't want to ask too much of these players. Others are going to be stars for the level and can be counted on to perform regularly (even if they don't do it every game) -- like I did with Vecchia in that tactic.

Finally there are players that are good at one thing. Like a CB with high heading & strength but poor pace. That player could be good or bad based on how you use them. If you push a high line and leave space behind, your asking to get burned. However if you play a lower line with a good screen in front to force more lofted passes, you may find that he can keep opposing strikers out of the game despite his lackluster overall star rating.

Edited by VinceLombardi
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5 hours ago, FM_Prospect said:

is this in your FM21 book Daljit?

Yeah it’s just one small chapter from the book I wrote  Over the course of the FM21 cycle I usually post chapters from the book on the forums, or on my blog and as video guides. If it helps just one of you then it’s great.

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15 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Yeah it’s just one small chapter from the book I wrote  Over the course of the FM21 cycle I usually post chapters from the book on the forums, or on my blog and as video guides. If it helps just one of you then it’s great.

think it helps most of us mate!

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I'm interested in how someone would set-up a lower league tactic to get the best out of a player like Louis Dunne? The team (Farnborough) are newly promoted to National South and predicted to finish last in 24th position, but Louis Dunne is currently happy playing for them despite being rated as a L2 player! I know I'll be losing him at the end of the season, likely on a free, but until such time I want to get the best out of him!

image.thumb.png.5489bbab1541314fa14a42a7c5107563.png

As the team currently only possess a single winger, I am leaning towards a narrow formation and making use of wingbacks (prioritising pace and acceleration other technical ability over mental stats) for width, and ensuring a solid defence. Possibly a variant of the 5-3-2, either utilising a DMC, AMC, or playing a simple flat midfield. This should hopefully make us defensively secure, but I fear that I might struggle to get him to make a real impact.

His favoured position/role is APa in the CM position, although his is accomplished in AM so he could play there as APs. Would this sort of role suit a counter attacking style, or would I be better trying to build a possession-based style and work the ball around? I really want to make him the fulcrum of the team.

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@Rashidi


Will Si be introducing the high and low values on the comparison page in FM21 or will this new addition be on FM22?

 

It's very frustrating not knowing the high and low values, and I would imagine it will be fairly straight forward to allow the game to show these values.

Edited by lim
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I pick players based on what I need like my wingback must be able to cross so even when I was in van south these stats had to be high or the formation didn't work. My wingers must be able to dribble to cut inside an be able to score 7 to 15 goals a season.

 

I've been promoted 3 times in a row im in league 1 and my players show up as van national or league 2 quality and the start of this new season im still in the top 5 and my team is still playing well. If you build around ur formation and understand ur formation its much more simple. 

Edited by Xazarl
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1 hour ago, steve.battisti said:

As someone who is BRAND new to FM, but wants to start at a low level, this was incredibly helpful! I have about a million questions, but for now I'm just soaking it in. :)

Thank you!!

When you start your save you can start your own thread  to ask anything you want

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On 14/11/2020 at 20:50, Rashidi said:

PLAYING DEFENSIVE FOOTBALL/COUNTER ATTACKING FOOTBALL

Kb2.jpg.0ab75f9bb36adb1964e91ddc13d3c1a4.jpg

Tried this in vanarama south, but not much success

j9u-Ma-Mj-Q9-N.jpg

I think force opposition outside + lower loe + regroup + 2dms just creates an overkill impossible to cope with. Both cbs have good jumping reach, but the amount of crosses is just too high (maybe 3cbs would be better?)

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2 hours ago, Shib0 said:

Tried this in vanarama south, but not much success

j9u-Ma-Mj-Q9-N.jpg

I think force opposition outside + lower loe + regroup + 2dms just creates an overkill impossible to cope with. Both cbs have good jumping reach, but the amount of crosses is just too high (maybe 3cbs would be better?)

Sounds like you picked the wrong players for your system, a common problem for most people.

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 26/11/2020 at 11:01, Rashidi said:

Yeah it’s just one small chapter from the book I wrote  Over the course of the FM21 cycle I usually post chapters from the book on the forums, or on my blog and as video guides. If it helps just one of you then it’s great.

Just been sent this way and been furiously scribbling down some notes to help me in my next effort for the daFuge challenge. What a great read. Despite being in depth its also easy enough to understand for people who haven't delved this deep into tactics before. 

Where can I find said book though? Be interesting to read more........

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8 hours ago, goonergez said:

Just been sent this way and been furiously scribbling down some notes to help me in my next effort for the daFuge challenge. What a great read. Despite being in depth its also easy enough to understand for people who haven't delved this deep into tactics before. 

Where can I find said book though? Be interesting to read more........

I believe this is the document you are after, from his Dropbox drive.

FM21 Tactics Handbook (Beta)PUBLIC.pdf

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@Rashidi Hello to everyone. What should we do if we are the worst team in the league? There are short and bad jumps in our defense. We don't have a player to be the star of the team. We are expected to be relegated in the league and we have a transfer ban. I'm playing in the lower leagues from Turkey 3rd Division. I have a 2020 football manager.


 
Edited by jackal_949
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Survive come up with a system that protects you against the cross and hope to find better players.  That essentially is the best thing you can do. You should make yourself compact, if have two dms then you can play defensively wide and protect the flanks, other wise you need to play narrow and hope your fullbacks win the ball. Here you would be looking at playing with some kind of middle block

 

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I don't know much about the game. I used to play a little, but I'm not familiar with the game. I could not find a guide for this game in my country. I follow you on youtube because I don't speak English, I use google translate. And I would ask you to add subtitles to the videos you shared. I do such research using google translate in the forum. I was playing in the 4-2Dm-3 AMRLC -1 formation until I found this problem. I was keeping my line of defense standard or high. I was trying to play close to the ownership style. I have read a few titles on overloading tactics. I'm trying to try them. I don't know if this tactic can be done in low league and weak teams. When I tried to play a defense game I got worse results. It may be possible to play aggressively.
I worked. My best players in my team are those in the AMRLC position. This is considered to be the average level of our league. My tactic is as follows.

[image] https://ibb.co/b5cFQCD [/image]https://ibb.co/b5cFQCD

I'm using fullback at DRL location. and I use instructions for players to dribble less, take fewer risks, and progress over long distances. When I used the rear wing, they spent a lot of time with the ball and I was losing a top. Cycle through AMRLC circulation from positions, simple press more. The mark is displayed in the AMRL position on the right and left defense of the racquet. I often make changes during the match. It's like taking DR into a support post. When the opponent team has trouble with the wings, I set my fullbacks as attack. I use the tactic you see in the picture as an attack. When I take the lead, the right defender pulls into support. Since we are weak in air balls, I usually have trouble with set pieces. 

I also think about this. As a beginner who doesn't know the game, is it bad that I picked a weak team in the low leagues?

Thank you so much for your time and response.

Edited by jackal_949
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I did research on the forum last night. I read Llama3's book on pairs and combinations. And I saw people who had tactics problems. I realized that I was making the same mistake. I guess I made random choices without having any strategy, not knowing the roles and tasks of the players and what they were doing on the field. I changed my tactics. Something similar to the above tactic but I made changes to the tasks and team instructions. I make many changes during the match again. I learn and struggle.:)

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