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Why can't you view stats in-play on FM21 anymore? And where have the Average Position and Action Zone maps gone?


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12 hours ago, Alchemist said:

Unless it's a glitch on my system, the new FM21 in-game match interface seems like a real downgrade on FM20.

For a start you now cannot view any stats during play any longer. They also seem to have completely done away with a huge raft of statistical analysis tools like the Average Position maps and Action Zone maps. There are also now very few customisation options available so you basically have little choice but to live with a cluttered, disorganised, and extremely uninformative in-game dashboard.

Is anybody else finding these drastic interface changes hugely detrimental to the FM21 experience?

This is a pretty good (and accurate) answer that I just happened to find in the feedback thread :

 

 

Quote

 

I expect they're just trying to impart some realism in to things. Analysis of a match is done in full manner at half time and after the match. I was watching my team the other day and the commentator commented on the data analyst heading off down the tunner a few minutes before half time to prepare.

It makes sense to me. Basic advice is one thing, but all the best analysis should be a half time/full time thing for me.

 

 

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3 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

This is a pretty good (and accurate) answer that I just happened to find in the feedback thread :

 

 

 

Nice to get some recognition. :)

I still hold to it. Real managers, even those at Prem level, don't have to hand in depth stats about every aspect of their game. Not instantly whilst the game is happening anyway. They judge how things are going based on an array of tactical knowledge and game plans. They then make changes with that knowledge.

I like the way FM is headed. SI seem to be taking away the tools that have been so common in FM for so long. Player searches that real managers don't have. Very specific indicators of player match fitness that real managers wouldn't have. Now having managers have to understand their tactics and which aspect of their game is not working, or why they are losing. 

I just like to have to do things the real way in FM. If I fail then I fail. I learn and come back stronger. It is more satisfying when I do well then. 

Saying that, I did pretty damn well with both my saves of FM20 and I really don't see myself as some sort of tactical genius.

The one thing I would like to see as a widget is other scores. I don't believe that in the real world teams know the scores in other matches though, unless they get a hint from the crowd. I haven't actually played a league yet though, so maybe you can see other scores. 

I remember at the end of last season, when Bournemouth were trying to stay in the PL, Eddie Howe actually commented that he didn't want the players to know the scores in other matches. I expect he knew though.

I know people might say "but FM is just a game, not a job", but I will always answer that that fact, while it may be true, doesnt mean you can't be challenged to learn and improve. 

 

Edited by anagain
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9 hours ago, Alchemist said:

For a start you now cannot view any stats during play any longer. 

You can view basic match stats, such as shots, possession etc. Click on the score banner somewhere and you get a drop down. 

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1 hour ago, anagain said:

Nice to get some recognition. :)

I still hold to it. Real managers, even those at Prem level, don't have to hand in depth stats about every aspect of their game. Not instantly whilst the game is happening anyway. They judge how things are going based on an array of tactical knowledge and game plans. They then make changes with that knowledge.

I like the way FM is headed. SI seem to be taking away the tools that have been so common in FM for so long. Player searches that real managers don't have. Very specific indicators of player match fitness that real managers wouldn't have. Now having managers have to understand their tactics and which aspect of their game is not working, or why they are losing. 

I just like to have to do things the real way in FM. If I fail then I fail. I learn and come back stronger. It is more satisfying when I do well then. 

Saying that, I did pretty damn well with both my saves of FM20 and I really don't see myself as some sort of tactical genius.

The one thing I would like to see as a widget is other scores. I don't believe that in the real world teams know the scores in other matches though, unless they get a hint from the crowd. I haven't actually played a league yet though, so maybe you can see other scores. 

I remember at the end of last season, when Bournemouth were trying to stay in the PL, Eddie Howe actually commented that he didn't want the players to know the scores in other matches. I expect he knew though.

I know people might say "but FM is just a game, not a job", but I will always answer that that fact, while it may be true, doesnt mean you can't be challenged to learn and improve. 

 

Agree with everything you've said here.

The latest scores I find completely unnecessary and unrealistic, surely this should be an optional widget like you said?

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Some of the analysis I'd like back, but on the whole doesn't really bother me as I watch matches in full and play FM at a slow pace.

I guess in terms of the realism aspect it's as much to do about forcing people to watch/participate in more of the match. I appreciate the argument that it's a video game and not some real-life sim, but at the same time when you're playing a game called football manager should it really be viable to watch just minimal highlights and get away with it? Certainly see why they'd get rid of any tools/help to allow someone to play like this.

Again I'd suggest this is where there should be a bigger strategy from SI in building up full fat FM vs. Touch/Classic and probably leading many players away from the 'main' version towards the other. I get it's additional workload, but really make and highlight Touch/Classic  as a version for slimmed down faster gameplay, and spell out that the 'main' game requires you to go all in, play slowly, play in full etc.

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It is an interesting change for me. I very rarely used these tools during a game anyway, I have always been a watch the match and understand what is happening from this. Are there many people who were using this frequently during a match to decide on what changes they made? Genuine question because this is alien to me and seems like a way more complicated way to play the game.

I actually think the change also makes sense. During a game is not the time to deeply analyse things. You do not have the time to do that. Besides you should have set up a tactic beforehand that you expect to help you win, and changes made during a match should not be huge anyway if you did this well. After the game is over is when you should look at the data to see if the things you planned in your tactic works, and if not make adjustments. With half time in a game being another time to do this. 

I can also see why this is going to annoy a lot of people. Taking away info is always unpopular. And I have no strong feelings either way on this since I already did not use analysis. 

 

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All I want to add is only allowing you to view the player stats and analysis screen at one point in time during HT (directly once the half has ended) is a poor decision imo. We should be allowed to review this information as regular as we want throughout the entire 'half time' until we decide to start the second half. 

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I just feel the whole match day UI looks unfinished.

The stats on the left hand side that takes up 1/3 of the space looks wrong.

The way the UI doesn't show you when you make multiple substitutions at the one time clearly, the second substitution is truncated

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I've been swithering about this because I think some of the UI changes on matchday work well. I like the morale faces and stuff across the bottom now I am used to it and the stats/XG stuff there as well. I do, however feel that the current Ipad display and drive to not share with the user formations and oppo body language which were widgets you could pin before are to the detriment of the user who is, essentially, playing a game. 

The realism argument has been made and I concede that the changes SI have made absolutely fit with this philosophy, however, the changes feel like they are pushing the user down a certain route. During an actual football match the information isn't there as has been presented in the past but real life managers have 90 minutes of watching a game and breaks in play and the opportunities to have chats with staff and to consult Ipads but in game if you are watching key/extended highlights and want the game to run at speed in between the highlights this is lost. The widgets before were a trade off where the game accepted it was a game and that people wouldn't want to watch a whole match so shorthanded feedback to them, now it feels like the game is not doing that and as a result penalise those players who don't slow the game to normal speed and watch comprehensive or full match.

That would be my reasoning for bringing widgets back in some form or having the Ipad easily accessible during play to give you information that you can analyse as the highlight is playing as before. 

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7 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

This is a pretty good (and accurate) answer that I just happened to find in the feedback thread :

 

 

 

but we know this isnt strictly true.  We can see in real life formations and styles set at the start of the game, managers looking at ipads 20 mins in the game and significantly changing formation and sometimes even personnel. I expect the level of technology available to the manager and his coaching staff will be based on the financial level of the club / league they play in

It would be naive to think a manager wont want all this information during the match where he can influence the match, not after. I fully understand the point of realism but I think we are seeing an extreme rather than the halfway house

The passing view is much too busy and should have an option of selecting one or more players rather than them all. Im mostly interested in my playmaker or perhaps my wingers crosses etc

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I never tend to use these tools in the middle of a game to be honest, I find it leads to me being bogged down in micromanagement and doesn't allow me to watch the games properly. Having said that, I don't see why you would remove a feature if some people want to use it? That never seems like a good model to me. Removing features is a big deal and will almost always be viewed as a negative.

A better method would be to add features which interpret that data into actual useful information, mid game, and feed it back to you in human language. Essentially what the Ass Man is supposed to do. However the problem is that the Ass man never gets it right and doesn't understand what you are trying to do, never mind that his feedback is often hidden away.

Edited by johnnyyakuza78
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There are a number of pieces of advice, analysis and stats available during the match, mostly contained under the Touchline Tablet, that a manager has access to in-play, but some of the most powerful tools are not accessible until certain points. This change was made to better recreate what a real manager would have available on match day and bring you closer to that experience.

To answer OP specifically, items such as Average Position are contained within the Chalkboard, which is now only available at Half and Full Time. Select the "Analysis" and "Stats" buttons during the Half or Full Time summaries to see the most detailed breakdowns.

We welcome feedback on this and the Match Day Experience as a whole, but we also acknowledge that change can sometimes simply take getting used to.

Please post any specific issues with, for example, the Touchline Tablet in their own separate threads in our bugs section - https://community.sigames.com/forum/770-football-manager-2021-early-access-beta-bugs-forum/

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Haven't bought the game yet but this is a welcome change. In a way it will force players to use pre and post match analysis more instead of just skimming through too superficially. I'm more concerned with the arrangement of player selection in a radial layout which doesn't seem very effective, design wise. But i have to try it once the demo is out. 

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@Seb Wassell, is there any reason why we can't access the tactics screen from the half time analysis view? You need to go to the dressing room to access tactics and by that point, you can't get back to the analysis screen. I like to be able to pinpoint areas to tweak, but I'm now having to note them manually as I can't flip between analysis and tactics. (I also concede I may be missing something obvious)

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3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

It is an interesting change for me. I very rarely used these tools during a game anyway, I have always been a watch the match and understand what is happening from this. Are there many people who were using this frequently during a match to decide on what changes they made? Genuine question because this is alien to me and seems like a way more complicated way to play the game.

I actually think the change also makes sense. During a game is not the time to deeply analyse things. You do not have the time to do that. Besides you should have set up a tactic beforehand that you expect to help you win, and changes made during a match should not be huge anyway if you did this well. After the game is over is when you should look at the data to see if the things you planned in your tactic works, and if not make adjustments. With half time in a game being another time to do this. 

I can also see why this is going to annoy a lot of people. Taking away info is always unpopular. And I have no strong feelings either way on this since I already did not use analysis. 

 

To reply to you/add to this.....I rarely to never used any of the analysis tools during game time I always save that for after the match, and due to time constraints I only used to watch key highlights or occassionally commentary only on previous versions of the game. I would base all my tactical decisions in game on basic match stats/player ratings. Whilst this never hindered my success on football manager I understand why it takes away some of the immersion for some players who do delve into the finer details during matches.

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24 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

@Seb Wassell, is there any reason why we can't access the tactics screen from the half time analysis view? You need to go to the dressing room to access tactics and by that point, you can't get back to the analysis screen. I like to be able to pinpoint areas to tweak, but I'm now having to note them manually as I can't flip between analysis and tactics. (I also concede I may be missing something obvious)

Worth posting that here - https://community.sigames.com/forum/803-user-interface/ - being able to access the analysis from the HT Tactics page seems sensible.

@Dagenham_Dave Having just checked with the team, this is on our radar already :thup:

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7 minutes ago, Jonthedon26 said:

To reply to you/add to this.....I rarely to never used any of the analysis tools during game time I always save that for after the match, and due to time constraints I only used to watch key highlights or occassionally commentary only on previous versions of the game. I would base all my tactical decisions in game on basic match stats/player ratings. Whilst this never hindered my success on football manager I understand why it takes away some of the immersion for some players who do delve into the finer details during matches.

I had the body language of both teams up and their formation as my widgets which is all info you would have if you were watching the pitch in front of you. the widgets just short-handed it.

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1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

@Seb Wassell, is there any reason why we can't access the tactics screen from the half time analysis view? You need to go to the dressing room to access tactics and by that point, you can't get back to the analysis screen. I like to be able to pinpoint areas to tweak, but I'm now having to note them manually as I can't flip between analysis and tactics. (I also concede I may be missing something obvious)

Biggest gripe for me (as posted further up). Totally illogical. Hope as per Seb's response this is fixed for the final release.

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1 hour ago, Seb Wassell said:

Worth posting that here - https://community.sigames.com/forum/803-user-interface/ - being able to access the analysis from the HT Tactics page seems sensible.

@Dagenham_Dave Having just checked with the team, this is on our radar already :thup:

Ah ok, I had posted it as a bug earlier, you can disregard it in that case, thanks

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6 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

It is an interesting change for me. I very rarely used these tools during a game anyway, I have always been a watch the match and understand what is happening from this. Are there many people who were using this frequently during a match to decide on what changes they made? Genuine question because this is alien to me and seems like a way more complicated way to play the game.

I actually think the change also makes sense. During a game is not the time to deeply analyse things. You do not have the time to do that. Besides you should have set up a tactic beforehand that you expect to help you win, and changes made during a match should not be huge anyway if you did this well. After the game is over is when you should look at the data to see if the things you planned in your tactic works, and if not make adjustments. With half time in a game being another time to do this. 

I can also see why this is going to annoy a lot of people. Taking away info is always unpopular. And I have no strong feelings either way on this since I already did not use analysis. 

 

I've always watched full matches (usually on a bit of a speed increase -- a full match for me comes in at just under 30 minutes).  Main reason is I don't think highlights can ever capture what is really happening in the trenches, where the ball is often won and loss.  I always have had several widgets on screen which give statistical weight to my personal feeling on how the match is unfolding.  Sometimes the stats would back up my own analysis, sometimes they would differ --- kind of like having assistants at your side which agree or disagree with you.  

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1 hour ago, G_D_K said:

I've always watched full matches (usually on a bit of a speed increase -- a full match for me comes in at just under 30 minutes).  Main reason is I don't think highlights can ever capture what is really happening in the trenches, where the ball is often won and loss.  I always have had several widgets on screen which give statistical weight to my personal feeling on how the match is unfolding.  Sometimes the stats would back up my own analysis, sometimes they would differ --- kind of like having assistants at your side which agree or disagree with you.  

It makes sense, I would not argue that they are not useful or people shouldn't use them of course. Everyone plays differently, and this change does kinda force one playstyle over another. 

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As much as it is still the case that I am happy with the emphasis on making analysis a half time and full time idea, I will echo those saying that there needs to be a way between team talks and tactics.

I just started a match and chose to look at my tactics whilst on the team talk screen. I then found I couldn't return to the team talk.

These screens should all be able to be switched between before the match, at half time and after the match. 

It does seem SI are aware of this needing to be changed though.

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I agree with the sentiment that having more analysis available than a real-life manager is the replacement for watching every game in full. Thus, I don't think this is a matter of "getting used to change" but taking away opportunities from certain playstyles.

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8 hours ago, bjoernd said:

I agree with the sentiment that having more analysis available than a real-life manager is the replacement for watching every game in full. Thus, I don't think this is a matter of "getting used to change" but taking away opportunities from certain playstyles.

Pretty much the only viable play style if you are like me and getting on in years so have a fulltime job and family plus just loads of other commitments middle aged people seem to have.

I abandoned FM20 in January due to the awful ME thats now been fixed and the UI is awful to the point of being almost unusable. 

FM is a game its not real life Miles has to realize that we play FM to escape the tedium of the real world not to have that tedium replaced by more in game tedium (which recent years changes have largely increased massively)!

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2 hours ago, kiwityke said:

Pretty much the only viable play style if you are like me and getting on in years so have a fulltime job and family plus just loads of other commitments middle aged people seem to have.

I abandoned FM20 in January due to the awful ME thats now been fixed and the UI is awful to the point of being almost unusable. 

FM is a game its not real life Miles has to realize that we play FM to escape the tedium of the real world not to have that tedium replaced by more in game tedium (which recent years changes have largely increased massively)!

The positive reports on the ME had me considering jumping in and buying now so I could play the beta but this stuff has made me decide to hold off until the demo.

I don't want to watch games in full and I don't want matches taking 20/30 minutes.

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Really not liking these changes No in game stats like match rating seemingly no  rating for position/role/duty way match fitness/condition is displayed being changed I don’t think I’ll be buying fm21 as it’s not heading in a direction I think I’d enjoy 

i guess I’ll just use a data update & hope they return in FM22

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I get why people people don't like the changes since it is placing limits on what you could previously do during a match. I'm also surprised that SI were brave enough to do this given that there was almost certainly going to be people who didn't like it. 

That said, I think it is a positive change that not only makes the game more realistic but also more challenging. It is clear with every iteration in the last few years that SI wants to move away from the 'Spreadsheet Manager' stereotype and become less stats driven. In my mind, this helps to achieve that and discourages people from playing by the numbers, especially in situations where that would not be done in real life.  I also suspect that this forum overestimates how many people actually dive into the statistics during a match (or ever). Of course, it is a balancing act between being a simulation (i.e. being told how to play) and being a sandbox (i.e. deciding how you want to play) but personally I am happy with the current approach.

I am sympathetic to having more stats available via the manager's tablet but I would be disappointed if the game went back to giving unlimited access to data and analysis. I also agree that it is a problem for people who prefer to watch just the key highlights or commentary only but I don't see a solution to that without diminishing the experience of watching in extended or above. 

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I understand the change to something more realistic, but at the end of the day, we're not real managers and this is just a game. 

More realism would be to take away the latest scores and the table till the end of the game(which also adds some suspense), but keep more of the analysis tools, as I don't have the time to sit and watch entire matches being played out. 

The analysis was very useful IG to understand why certain players are underperforming and I feel the current in match data just doesn't seem enough to make certain tactical decisions. 

In a way, it actually feels more streamlined than it was previously. 

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1 hour ago, arsenalthebest said:

Really not liking these changes No in game stats like match rating seemingly no  rating for position/role/duty way match fitness/condition is displayed being changed I don’t think I’ll be buying fm21 as it’s not heading in a direction I think I’d enjoy 

i guess I’ll just use a data update & hope they return in FM22

Match Rating and Role Ratings haven't been removed.

A Players Match Rating should be showing up in several places - It's still shown in the normal ratings panel, it's on the formation panels and listed in team bar at the bottom of the screen, if it's not showing on those screens then it's a bug.

Role Ratings have been reworked to make it easier to work out what they are actually trying to tell you and make it easier to compare two players, yes we have lost the icon on the tactics screen but I think this is a UI issue that is under review.

And if people weren't aware you can still access the average positions and heat map data during a match - Go to the Tactics Screen and click the Analysis button top right of pitch and it will show this info.

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14 minutes ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

Match Rating and Role Ratings haven't been removed.

A Players Match Rating should be showing up in several places - It's still shown in the normal ratings panel, it's on the formation panels and listed in team bar at the bottom of the screen, if it's not showing on those screens then it's a bug.

Role Ratings have been reworked to make it easier to work out what they are actually trying to tell you and make it easier to compare two players, yes we have lost the icon on the tactics screen but I think this is a UI issue that is under review.

And if people weren't aware you can still access the average positions and heat map data during a match - Go to the Tactics Screen and click the Analysis button top right of pitch and it will show this info.

that heatmap tells me nothing. it's just a buggy mess.

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Taking away the Match engine's stats, timeline and analysis tools in favour of 'Realism' doesn't make sense to me. Or at least they could have implemented these better.

If this is the case, also remove the ability to take over any club at the start of the game. This is unrealistic too.

not everyone sits through full 90 minutes. Im sure the majority sets their game to key or extended highlights and used to be able to just glance at the stats and make the correct decision.

The dugout feature while a great idea needs to be reworked. things just flash by too quickly for you to make any actions. This year im constantly pausing my game. however much i love the new Match Engine I just wish the UI was not tempered with just improved on the existing one. not sure if i'll be able to play like this for a year until FM22. Who knows maybe theres a major change after the beta so i'll wait and see. But right now i regret uninstalling FM20.

Edited by bassistuk
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2 minutes ago, IrrelevantLion said:

I think it’s a step in the right direction in terms of match day realism and experience. 

Yes  a step in the right direction but also a step back in terms of match day experience for me and alot of other people. Everything else is perfect.

Edited by bassistuk
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4 ore fa, bassistuk ha scritto:

Yes  a step in the right direction but also a step back in terms of match day experience for me and alot of other people. Everything else is perfect.

Totally agree with you it is a huge step back that makes me want to go back to FM20..."realism" ahah in reality you watch a match 90 minutes not only key actrions this is not a good argument and probably it is not even the real reason

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On 12/11/2020 at 11:14, DP said:

I’d like to able to pin opposition formation and the live league table as before. Not sure why you can’t anymore. 
 

This isn’t analysis, it’s just information. 

Yip, I always had the opposition formation pinned on a widget, really handy for showing subtle changes in formation, or how they've regrouped after a red card. It's all very well saying 'ah, but you can see on the pitch how that's working', but that's really only an answer if you've got the time to watch full or possibly comp highlights. And yes, I know a real manager wouldn't have a screen immediately updating opposition formation, but then a real manager doesn't have the option for watching just key highlights. It's a bold change to do this, but I feel there also has to be the option of customisable widgets to cater for all users. As I said on another thread, imagine if you're one of those who play on commentary only. This must be a nightmare to try and work out what's going on. 

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Access to the Opposition Formation (or Live League Table) hasn't been removed though - it is there in the Touchline Tablet.

Also I'm not sure if people are aware but you can click the Tablet button in the bottom right hand corner during the match and it will pop-up the Touchline Tablet, so you can access that data whenever you want to.

For the league table you should get updates from your Assistant poping up in the bottom left corner of the screen where there has been a change.

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5 hours ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

Access to the Opposition Formation (or Live League Table) hasn't been removed though - it is there in the Touchline Tablet.

Also I'm not sure if people are aware but you can click the Tablet button in the bottom right hand corner during the match and it will pop-up the Touchline Tablet, so you can access that data whenever you want to.

 

Yes, but it's impractical to have that big thing on the screen when you're trying to watch the match. A small widget open throughout the match was a lot handier. The information might all still be there, but it's more of a pain to get to. Design changes should make your life easier, not more awkward. 

And don't get me started on the amount of clicks needed to get into opposition instructions if you've got the bottom bar minimised. :mad:

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6 hours ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

Access to the Opposition Formation (or Live League Table) hasn't been removed though - it is there in the Touchline Tablet

Yeah and you have to have the huge thing up blocking your view of the match, awful design decision. What damage was having small customisable widgets doing?

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5 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Yes, but it's impractical to have that big thing on the screen when you're trying to watch the match. A small widget open throughout the match was a lot handier. The information might all still be there, but it's more of a pain to get to. Design changes should make your life easier, not more awkward. 

And don't get me started on the amount of clicks needed to get into opposition instructions if you've got the bottom bar minimised. :mad:

Yeah 2 clicks ? Thats a tuff task :lol: 

 

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3 hours ago, alian62 said:

Yeah 2 clicks ? Thats a tuff task :lol: 

 

Three, but don't let the facts get in the way. 

Particularly when in last year's game, opposition instructions was a permanent clickable icon regardless of whether highlights were being shown or not. 

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The number of clicks to get to information on a matchday has increased. This seems like unintuitive UI design for a, and I can't stress this enough, videogame. 

It's not real football, it's an approximation of it on your computer and down the line certain aspects of real life football are going to be have to shorthanded in a not true to life way in order to make the game work. These matchday UI changes take it too far in my opinion and the matchday experience is worse because of it.

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