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I hate the new Condition/Sharpness Icons...


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They do have the potential to be better, but the information when you hover over them needs to be better. Had a player with around a 'quarter' heart at the start of a save and wanted to know why, when I hovered over it said he had played 3 games in 14 days, so was a higher injury risk -  fair enough - but further down his 'fatigue' rating was a green 'fresh' - Do I start him or not? 

Edited by Dagenham_Dave
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It would be good to know the brackets for what each heart represents. Is bright green 100%-90%, then the next green one is 89%-80%, etc.

For instance is the 3rd player down in the shot above like 40% fitness so basically injured.

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Obviously just my personal preference, but I like the idea of general descriptors rather than hard numbers. Makes it feel more realistic. A manager doesn't know if their player is 65% sharp and 97% fit. They just know generally what they look like in training and what their recent workload has been. The icons themselves I'm pretty indifferent towards, but I do like the overall concept of fitness and condition.

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8 minutes ago, Lennac said:

Obviously just my personal preference, but I like the idea of general descriptors rather than hard numbers. Makes it feel more realistic. A manager doesn't know if their player is 65% sharp and 97% fit. They just know generally what they look like in training and what their recent workload has been. The icons themselves I'm pretty indifferent towards, but I do like the overall concept of fitness and condition.

I agree, and maybe this is the prelude to doing away with physical numbers for attributes as well eventually.  I’m sure Klopp doesn’t get scout reports that’s says some players finishing is 15 out of 20 😂

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21 minutes ago, Lennac said:

Obviously just my personal preference, but I like the idea of general descriptors rather than hard numbers. Makes it feel more realistic. A manager doesn't know if their player is 65% sharp and 97% fit. They just know generally what they look like in training and what their recent workload has been. The icons themselves I'm pretty indifferent towards, but I do like the overall concept of fitness and condition.

Agree that it should be less number-based and more based on verbal feedback. I remember posting about something related to this a few years back, that training reports and feedback from it should contain more descriptive info related to who is ready (or not) to play for the next match. 

It's getting better now that we have the fitness report, and we also have the overall training feedback, but it would be nice to have it based on who was 'at it' in training or not, and for that to impact on their performance in some obvious way.

Easy to say, of course...far more difficult to implement.

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38 minutes ago, kevhamster said:

It is definitely something to get used to. People are often resistant to change and this is a huge change from the percentage system we're all used to. 

this ^^

100+ hours later the ppl complaining will not even notice it anymore. it just takes some getting use to because we're used to seeing something else (the numbers) for 10+ years now.

Edited by Artin
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3 minutes ago, Artin said:

this ^^

100+ hours later the ppl complaining will not even notice it anymore. it just takes some getting use to because we're used to seeing something else (the numbers) for 10+ years now.

I agree, I didn't like this when I started playing, but it seems much better now I have played a few matches. More realistic, I micromanage it let, and am probably getting better form from my players due to it as well (due to less rest/rotation)

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1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

They do have the potential to be better, but the information when you hover over them needs to be better. Had a player with around a 'quarter' heart at the start of a save and wanted to know why, when I hovered over it said he had played 3 games in 14 days, so was a higher injury risk -  fair enough - but further down his 'fatigue' rating was a green 'fresh' - Do I start him or not? 

idd i inserted the column with words 'fresh' in my squad view and everybody is all the time 'fresh' . I know they are going to put the match fitness and condition 'icons' back in the squad view, no u can't add them.

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48 minutes ago, barsiem said:

I agree, and maybe this is the prelude to doing away with physical numbers for attributes as well eventually.  I’m sure Klopp doesn’t get scout reports that’s says some players finishing is 15 out of 20 😂

That would be an interesting idea, I don't know if i would like to not have a number there but it is interesting non the less :lol:

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1 hour ago, Grifty said:

It would be good to know the brackets for what each heart represents. Is bright green 100%-90%, then the next green one is 89%-80%, etc.

For instance is the 3rd player down in the shot above like 40% fitness so basically injured.

That's the entire point - you don't know, because IRL you couldn't know whether someone is 98% fit or 93% fit.

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I'm starting to like it more the more i play. Would like to see some kind of info/explanation what the different states means though, i had a player with fatigue: fresh and everything else green, yet his overall fitness was considered only "good", while another player with the same stats except for high injury susceptibility apparently had better overall fitness level.

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14 minutes ago, Fat_Frank8 said:

I'm starting to like it more the more i play. Would like to see some kind of info/explanation what the different states means though, i had a player with fatigue: fresh and everything else green, yet his overall fitness was considered only "good", while another player with the same stats except for high injury susceptibility apparently had better overall fitness level.

This.

More accurate, contextual information is needed. If that's working right, then it becomes a terrific addition. 

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The more i think about it, the more it is logic.

Like someone said, it was like robots, players with X % battery left .. 

But i would love to get more information if i hoover on some of the new icons.

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3 hours ago, chob said:

I think they are so much better than the percentages. 

Totally agree. Can you honestly say about yourself right now how fit you feel in percentages? Maybe in increments of 10% you potentially could, but definitely not to a 1% accuracy.

The way it is set up now is more realistic.

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10 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

The more i think about it, the more it is logic.

Like someone said, it was like robots, players with X % battery left .. 

But i would love to get more information if i hoover on some of the new icons.

Right now, if you hover over the heart icon during a match, you get four headings and zero information, ie useless. I'm hoping that's a bug and not by design. 

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Good grief. What an awful change. Further encourages me to stick with my FM19 save. And I used to be a year in year out FM buyer religiously. We’re at the point now where we’re seeing change for changes sake and relabelling features is being called new features. The game is now a glorified yearly squad update. 

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6 hours ago, QWERTYOP said:

Good grief. What an awful change. Further encourages me to stick with my FM19 save. And I used to be a year in year out FM buyer religiously. We’re at the point now where we’re seeing change for changes sake and relabelling features is being called new features. The game is now a glorified yearly squad update. 

No, it really isn't. It's part of the bigger picture - focusing on you as manager more and what you experience. So less spreadsheet and more realism. These things weren't randomly changed and we've had a massive amount of changes. Give the demo a try when it's out. This (FM21) has the power to instantly change your mind as soon as you fire up the first match, though almost everything (even the start up screen!) looks and feels better.

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In the past, people were so rigid in the thinking. As an example - anyone 94% or more will start. 93%? Sorry, you're on the bench. That's (potentially) a difference of only 1% that makes you start or bench someone!

I'd be interested to hear how the decision making works this year. Who gets to start? At what point do you decide not to start someone because they're not fit enough? At what point do you sub someone?

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I just wonder whether this is the precursor to eventually changing the "Attributes" grade system to something similar and perhaps they wanted to sample how a subset of the FM community would welcome such a change to something that has been taken for granted for so many years and a bedrock to the game.

I think in FM 2022 or perhaps 2023 we would be seeing a similar change to the attributes grading of 1 - 20.

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4 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

In the past, people were so rigid in the thinking. As an example - anyone 94% or more will start. 93%? Sorry, you're on the bench. That's (potentially) a difference of only 1% that makes you start or bench someone!

I'd be interested to hear how the decision making works this year. Who gets to start? At what point do you decide not to start someone because they're not fit enough? At what point do you sub someone?

And that's fine, the concept of that is great. But when you see a player on a 'quarter' heart before a game and want to know why, and the pop up tells you he's fresh and has no fatigue, then you're in the dark about why that heart monitor should be at such a low level. There has to be better contextual information to help the decision process, otherwise it then becomes a crapshoot. Which is why I think a pop up meeting with your physios pre-match would be a fantastic idea in conjunction with this new format. 

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All for them getting rid of the percentages. Not sure about the replacement though and whether that is anymore 'realistic' - a heart shaped health container looks like it belongs in some RPG-type game.

As mentioned by others, I think the key to it should be better and more contextual feedback and you then make decisions from this. Really I'd probably take condition/fitness even further under the hood. I guess the hardest part of this is to display this in an icon/column (whether it be percentage, this new 'heart', whatever) on the appropriate selection screens, I'd suggest just simply some sort of exclamation mark system and then if you click on it you get that wealth of info/feedback to make your decision. Say an orange ! if the staff were getting worried about workload, and a red if the player was at the point where it looked like they were going to keel over in front of you at any moment. And then it is over to the manager to work out how much they can gamble/get away with before you get negative effects.

 

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I think it is going in the right direction. It was very nice to see the % but 89% or 91% what is the difference?

Now you have context information:

What is the injury risk? How many games has he played? What is the training load? What is the general injury risk to the player? What is the overall fatigue (this was there before but more in the background - they had match fitness and condition but they started to be fatigued after too many games - now the tool-tip tells you).

So, if I have a regular starter and I see him starting to be fatigued and having a high game load, I will see where I can rest him and play my backup.

 

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I like them and i think they are the right decision. % are arbitrary and not realistic. Before people go "But looking at a heart icon isnt as well". You would need some sort of reflection of what the manager sees. 

 

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4 hours ago, samuelawachie said:

I just wonder whether this is the precursor to eventually changing the "Attributes" grade system to something similar and perhaps they wanted to sample how a subset of the FM community would welcome such a change to something that has been taken for granted for so many years and a bedrock to the game.

I think in FM 2022 or perhaps 2023 we would be seeing a similar change to the attributes grading of 1 - 20.

I can see that. Dont know how i feel about it. I kinda like knowing but it makes sense. 

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I like the idea as a concept, but I worry that I would personally become frustrated by the lack of information. I can see why SI want to go down the route of making the game closer to how a real life manager would interact with the world, rather than it being a series of spreadsheets. However it reminds me of Attribute masking. That was a feature I think they brought in a long time ago, and I have tried to use it when I wanted to role play and add to the realism. However, that doesn't last long and I've never got longer than 6 months into a save with AM on because I get so irritated at not being able to see attributes. 

Essentially what FM is generally very good at, is enabling users to interact with its interface in what ever level of detail they want, and have them find their own ways of playing. I rarely use the detailed in game stats and heatmaps, but I like that I could use them. I don't think SI should be removing features. If players want to be able to play FM as an advanced spreadsheet manager, then let them.

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Ok, so here's an example of how they can be confusing. 

I have a player on a short term injury and it's coming up to matchday. The training report says the player has passed a fitness test and there should be minimal risk. Fine. On clicking on his medical report, still shows he has a tight thigh, but his condition indicator is fully green - Good to go then! Except when it comes to matchday and I'm in the team selection screen, the player still has an orange 'INJ' icon next to his name, and hovering over it gives the message of the player returning to full training in a couple of days. My question is then, how can this player have 'full green' for condition, when he's clearly not fully fit? 

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Now look at this. During the game, i get a pop up in the dugout pane telling me a player has picked up a knock (hilariously recommending I replace him with another player who went off injured earlier). Given these dugout messages can fly past, every chance I could have missed this. Nowhere else on this screen does it indicate the player has a knock. Sure, the condition icon is lower, but hovering over it on the bottom row does nothing, and on the team line up part on the tablet, just brings up a load of headings with no info. The only place I can find out he's injured is if I click on the tactics screen where it then shows the orange 'INJ' icon. Not good enough SI, sorry to say. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Now look at this. During the game, i get a pop up in the dugout pane telling me a player has picked up a knock (hilariously recommending I replace him with another player who went off injured earlier). Given these dugout messages can fly past, every chance I could have missed this. Nowhere else on this screen does it indicate the player has a knock. Sure, the condition icon is lower, but hovering over it on the bottom row does nothing, and on the team line up part on the tablet, just brings up a load of headings with no info. The only place I can find out he's injured is if I click on the tactics screen where it then shows the orange 'INJ' icon. Not good enough SI, sorry to say. 

 

image.thumb.png.858bb04393739ede14851b6b24057d42.pngimage.thumb.png.e686c431e86616970e9904ddaea95115.png

This is the issue for me. I like the new system in principle, but at the moment information from different places often seems to be contradictory. Hopefully these are teething problems which can be patched out.
 

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22 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Now look at this. During the game, i get a pop up in the dugout pane telling me a player has picked up a knock (hilariously recommending I replace him with another player who went off injured earlier). Given these dugout messages can fly past, every chance I could have missed this. Nowhere else on this screen does it indicate the player has a knock. Sure, the condition icon is lower, but hovering over it on the bottom row does nothing, and on the team line up part on the tablet, just brings up a load of headings with no info. The only place I can find out he's injured is if I click on the tactics screen where it then shows the orange 'INJ' icon. Not good enough SI, sorry to say. 

 

image.thumb.png.858bb04393739ede14851b6b24057d42.pngimage.thumb.png.e686c431e86616970e9904ddaea95115.png

I noticed the lack of orange injury icon too, noted it in my post in the feedback thread. It really is a big issue with it missing.

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9 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

No, it really isn't. It's part of the bigger picture - focusing on you as manager more and what you experience. So less spreadsheet and more realism. These things weren't randomly changed and we've had a massive amount of changes. Give the demo a try when it's out. This (FM21) has the power to instantly change your mind as soon as you fire up the first match, though almost everything (even the start up screen!) looks and feels better.

Yes it really is. You’ve relabelled tones with gestures. It’s seemingly this years “headline” feature which is both sad and hilarious. It’s nobody’s fault. The pressure to produce a game yearly makes this inevitable. But I’ll be keeping my money in my pocket for a second year in a row until I’m given sufficient reason to upgrade. I genuinely hope that’s next year. FM desperately needs competition. They’ve got to the stage where they can do this yearly and they know it’ll still sell like hot cakes. 

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14 minutes ago, QWERTYOP said:

Yes it really is. You’ve relabelled tones with gestures. It’s seemingly this years “headline” feature which is both sad and hilarious. It’s nobody’s fault. The pressure to produce a game yearly makes this inevitable. But I’ll be keeping my money in my pocket for a second year in a row until I’m given sufficient reason to upgrade. I genuinely hope that’s next year. FM desperately needs competition. They’ve got to the stage where they can do this yearly and they know it’ll still sell like hot cakes. 

There were what... 5 or 6 tones? There are 32 gestures. That alone should tell you it wasn't just a re-labelling. It's short-sighted to think so. Things were added, tweaked, reactions to conversation etc all improved. Do what you want, but take my advice regarding the demo. The ME will change your mind.  ;)

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12 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

There were what... 5 or 6 tones? There are 32 gestures. That alone should tell you it wasn't just a re-labelling. It's short-sighted to think so. Things were added, tweaked, reactions to conversation etc all improved. Do what you want, but take my advice regarding the demo. The ME will change your mind.  ;)

The match engine does seem to be a huge leap forward. I'm seeing things I've never seen FM do before. 

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27 minutes ago, QWERTYOP said:

Yes it really is. You’ve relabelled tones with gestures. It’s seemingly this years “headline” feature which is both sad and hilarious. It’s nobody’s fault. The pressure to produce a game yearly makes this inevitable. But I’ll be keeping my money in my pocket for a second year in a row until I’m given sufficient reason to upgrade. I genuinely hope that’s next year. FM desperately needs competition. They’ve got to the stage where they can do this yearly and they know it’ll still sell like hot cakes. 

This year's game is a vastly different beast to previous editions. I'm struggling badly to get used to all the changes, some people love it, some people (me) don't. That said, the match engine really is great. 

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  • 1 month later...

There actually it is a way to change icons for condition/sharpness back to numbers. Saw many people adding it in their skins. The problem is that I dont know which file is responsible for numbers, so you could copy it to your skin, if u are using one or not. You could just easy copy it in your si folder, I did the same for green circles on tactic screen.

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