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2 hours ago, BamBamBam said:

Are the brexit rules that restrictive?

Thinking of forgetting about waiting for the editor to be fixed and just bite the bullet and start a career with brexit.

Nowhere near as restrictive as I thought they would be. What exactly is it you want to do that you worry you won't be able to?

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4 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Nowhere near as restrictive as I thought they would be. What exactly is it you want to do that you worry you won't be able to?

Signing youth foreign players from the EU and beyond....Especially brazilian 

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10 minutes ago, BamBamBam said:

Signing youth foreign players from the EU and beyond....Especially brazilian 

Read the FA doc: Brazil and Argentinian leagues are Band 3 and main South American youth tournies are Band 1 and qualifiers are Band 2.

Get a good scout and do the math and you'll find some gems. If the 18-21yr old in question has made the senior squad - even as bench warmers - it really shouldn't be harder than before.

It only prevents grabbing sub 18s and makes it harder to get European youth players from 'lesser' clubs and leagues or youth players that maybe aren't quite up to snuf.

Edited by CaptCanuck
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3 minutes ago, BamBamBam said:

Signing youth foreign players from the EU and beyond....Especially brazilian 

The u18 restrictions have always applied in Brazil anyway, haven't they? Something tells me they can't/couldn't leave Brazil until they are 18.  Not sure how affected you'd be to be honest as it depends on specific circumstances. 

As long as you are signing players from clubs in the better European leagues who are making match day squads here and there, you should be generally ok from what I understand.

I mean I play quite differently to you by the sounds of it (complete opposite possibly 😂) but surely having a player rejected for a permit every now and again is ok?  If it's an accurate reflection of reality, is that not the point?

Genuine question, not meaning to be hard work.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The editor is fixed now, it is really quite trivial to remove Brexit regulations now that everything verifies.

Its not. Keep getting an error when removing the agreement from England.

image.png.409f738128378c1697028ba4c109af3b.png

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I think some of you guys should consider the fact that Brexit isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Instead of having to bother with a work-around every year from now on, why not just try and work within the new rules and make the best of it?

You'd do yourself a favor and I'm sure it'd be worth it in the long run.

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1 hour ago, BamBamBam said:

Its not. Keep getting an error when removing the agreement from England.

image.png.409f738128378c1697028ba4c109af3b.png

Unless I am missing something (entirely possible, I'm topped up with pain killers after dental surgery) I made this work last night just to see if it was working. I'll check if it did indeed do what I expected and get back to you. It's entirely possible I am just missing something there.

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18 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Unless I am missing something (entirely possible, I'm topped up with pain killers after dental surgery) I made this work last night just to see if it was working. I'll check if it did indeed do what I expected and get back to you. It's entirely possible I am just missing something there.

So yeah I checked, and indeed I do appear to have removed Brexit regulations without anything being screwed in the editor. 

nobrexit.thumb.png.706f592f971a66ff40c39b9c9a2d6e28.png

The registration rules for the start of the second season. ASAIK this is the same as the start of the game, and England is still in the EU. 

I have attached the file to this post, for anyone who wants to use it. Please give it a quick check by holidaying a few seasons to make sure it is really fine before committing to a long term game. I have tested it a little bit but I have not checked it in depth. I do not want to be responsible for wasting anyone's time. 

No Brexit.fmf

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Remember that editor-related queries should go in the Editor Hideaway subforum - if this thread's just going to turn into an editor thread, rather than discussing Brexit in-game and how it's impacting you, it's going to end up being closed as redundant, because there are already Brexit editor threads in the correct forum.

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2 hours ago, Baodan said:

I think some of you guys should consider the fact that Brexit isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Instead of having to bother with a work-around every year from now on, why not just try and work within the new rules and make the best of it?

You'd do yourself a favor and I'm sure it'd be worth it in the long run.

You mean, play the game how it's supposed to be played by devs? Is it even legal to offer such things? /s

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4 hours ago, styluz05 said:

If you look at the restrictions coming into place in real life post Brexit they are very restricting! People can choose to skip around it somehow with a editor, but doesn't remove the fact it is  coming! 

But that's the thing, they are not very restrictive - unless you used to hoover up continental 16-17yr olds or got all your recruits from lower tier leagues.

Depending on how closely it can be done in FM (in regards to minutes played criteria) I think most players you would want to sign for a club aiming to be in the Championship or Premier League by the end of the foreign players initial 3yr stint, will still be signable. And will need to do the math once some newgens start coming through, but I think it could be easier to sign a top Brazilian or Argentinian prospect, because it won't simply be about offering them a big wage when you'd rather not have to.

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2 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

But that's the thing, they are not very restrictive - unless you used to hoover up continental 16-17yr olds or got all your recruits from lower tier leagues.

Depending on how closely it can be done in FM (in regards to minutes played criteria) I think most players you would want to sign for a club aiming to be in the Championship or Premier League by the end of the foreign players initial 3yr stint, will still be signable. And will need to do the math once some newgens start coming through, but I think it could be easier to sign a top Brazilian or Argentinian prospect, because it won't simply be about offering them a big wage when you'd rather not have to.

Unfortunately that is the way I normally play it. I snap up the best youthful prospects. Maybe no more.

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2 minutes ago, BamBamBam said:

Unfortunately that is the way I normally play it. I snap up the best youthful prospects. Maybe no more.

Gotcha. Try a save in continental club maybe? Someone in Germany?

But ya if you want foreign kids in the UK, you'll have to change the law from now on. In Fm20 I had to run through Dec '20 a couple times to get a no-Brexit outcome (I'm not an editor person) as I really didn't want it in my save, but now that it is the unfortunate reality for the foreseeable future, I'll play with it and off I go.

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4 hours ago, styluz05 said:

If you look at the restrictions coming into place in real life post Brexit they are very restricting! People can choose to skip around it somehow with a editor, but doesn't remove the fact it is  coming! 

This mans right sign your 17 year old South American players in the first 6minths of your game once brexit kicks in ACCESS DENIED

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4 hours ago, Domathon said:

This mans right sign your 17 year old South American players in the first 6minths of your game once brexit kicks in ACCESS DENIED

oh... so we'll ignore the fact I've poached a 17yo Argentinean regen, before he's even played a competitive game
this is awkward

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10 minutes ago, HurkaDurk69 said:

Since there is a lot to search through in this thread, if I holiday until the decision, if a reload to the day I started, will it be the same brexit? 

Yes, because there's only one Brexit in FM now - the official FA one.

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Having played from the beta and through each of the various updates, I think in the most recent version, the work permit rules now seem very permissive (whereas in the beta they were very restrictive).

 

Playing as Middlesbrough in the prem, in the summer 2022 window I have been able to sign:

- 19 yo Italian striker from Atalanta with no senior league appearances and 1 u21 cap £3.1m

-19 yo defender from Zebre with 1 senior cap and several in Serie C on a free transfer

-19 yo Norwegian fullback from Molde with a dozen appearances in the Norwegian league and 9 u21 caps

- 18yo Turkish goalkeeper from Besiktas with just 1 superlig apperance and some u19 caps

 

But then I did have a 22 yo Nigerian dm signed from Goteborg for £1,5m with lots of league apperances but nothing international at any level, wp refused.

 

This now seems to me a bit more permissive than it should be? I'd still want to know exactly how the various points are weighted. From the above it seems any combination of one or more first team appearances plus u21 international caps is enough!

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6 minutes ago, denv said:

Having played from the beta and through each of the various updates, I think in the most recent version, the work permit rules now seem very permissive (whereas in the beta they were very restrictive).

 

Playing as Middlesbrough in the prem, in the summer 2022 window I have been able to sign:

- 19 yo Italian striker from Atalanta with no senior league appearances and 1 u21 cap £3.1m

-19 yo defender from Zebre with 1 senior cap and several in Serie C on a free transfer

-19 yo Norwegian fullback from Molde with a dozen appearances in the Norwegian league and 9 u21 caps

- 18yo Turkish goalkeeper from Besiktas with just 1 superlig apperance and some u19 caps

 

But then I did have a 22 yo Nigerian dm signed from Goteborg for £1,5m with lots of league apperances but nothing international at any level, wp refused.

 

This now seems to me a bit more permissive than it should be? I'd still want to know exactly how the various points are weighted. From the above it seems any combination of one or more first team appearances plus u21 international caps is enough!

https://www.thefa.com/-/media/thefacom-new/files/rules-and-regulations/2020-21/gbe-criteria/gbe-mens-players-criteria-jan-2021.ashx

That's how the points are weighted. It's too complex to list all of that in the in-game rules, but yes, those players you got would all appear to be fine within the rules other than the Nigerian player.

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33 minutes ago, denv said:

Having played from the beta and through each of the various updates, I think in the most recent version, the work permit rules now seem very permissive (whereas in the beta they were very restrictive).

 

Playing as Middlesbrough in the prem, in the summer 2022 window I have been able to sign:

- 19 yo Italian striker from Atalanta with no senior league appearances and 1 u21 cap £3.1m

-19 yo defender from Zebre with 1 senior cap and several in Serie C on a free transfer

-19 yo Norwegian fullback from Molde with a dozen appearances in the Norwegian league and 9 u21 caps

- 18yo Turkish goalkeeper from Besiktas with just 1 superlig apperance and some u19 caps

 

But then I did have a 22 yo Nigerian dm signed from Goteborg for £1,5m with lots of league apperances but nothing international at any level, wp refused.

 

This now seems to me a bit more permissive than it should be? I'd still want to know exactly how the various points are weighted. From the above it seems any combination of one or more first team appearances plus u21 international caps is enough!

You will likely have to guess on the %s of play and make a safe assumption that - for instance in the case of the Atalanta striker - he played 30%+ of their youth matches, but otherwise you can simply do the math in the link Jordan provided and you can look at the example I did in the previous page.

The punchline is, youth players associated with a club in a band 1 or 2 league or players in an OK league but playing matches and getting u__ caps are going to qualify. Meaningful restrictions really only apply to players under 18.

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6 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

You will likely have to guess on the %s of play and make a safe assumption that - for instance in the case of the Atalanta striker - he played 30%+ of their youth matches, but otherwise you can simply do the math in the link Jordan provided and you can look at the example I did in the previous page.

The punchline is, youth players associated with a club in a band 1 or 2 league or players in an OK league but playing matches and getting u__ caps are going to qualify. Meaningful restrictions really only apply to players under 18.

So youth matches count towards games played?

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On 03/12/2020 at 17:24, BamBamBam said:

Signing youth foreign players from the EU and beyond....Especially brazilian 

The cap on foreign U21 players will be the most restrictive part when it's implemented.

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10 minutes ago, BamBamBam said:

So youth matches count towards games played?

Yes it's all clearly laid out in the attached PDF. For a decent club, play 30% of your club's youth team matches and be capped at u__ something and that's likely going to be enough. Sit on the bench for a senior squad match and the player would be way over the required limit.

gbe-mens-players-criteria-jan-2021.pdf

Edited by CaptCanuck
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Thanks for the above links, helpful!

I think then it's quite safe to say Brexit isn't going to "ruin" games in the way was anticipated in the early pages of this thread - clearly there were some issues with the way the WPs were issued in the beta which have now been addressed.

Getting a WP for a talented young foreign player is now easier than it used to be for non-EU players. For prem and championship clubs I don't think this will be a massive issue for the majority of targets - and for those who it is, that accurately reflects the policy choice of Brexit.

It seems like you could also sign a player without a WP and try and loan them to Ligue 1 or La Liga for some first team experience - if they are regular starters you should be able to achieve a WP by the next window.

 

Trickier I'm sure for league 1&2 and lower, but it's not necessarily "realistic" that they would be signing lots of hot young foreign talent themselves, in the most part

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1 hour ago, denv said:

Thanks for the above links, helpful!

I think then it's quite safe to say Brexit isn't going to "ruin" games in the way was anticipated in the early pages of this thread - clearly there were some issues with the way the WPs were issued in the beta which have now been addressed.

Getting a WP for a talented young foreign player is now easier than it used to be for non-EU players. For prem and championship clubs I don't think this will be a massive issue for the majority of targets - and for those who it is, that accurately reflects the policy choice of Brexit.

It seems like you could also sign a player without a WP and try and loan them to Ligue 1 or La Liga for some first team experience - if they are regular starters you should be able to achieve a WP by the next window.

 

Trickier I'm sure for league 1&2 and lower, but it's not necessarily "realistic" that they would be signing lots of hot young foreign talent themselves, in the most part

The reason the beta WP rules were different is because the official rules hadnt been decided yet. Once the Home Office accepted the FA's request and the new rules became official, FM then updated the in game rules. And yes I think it is easier to sign non EU players now. The only big change is the no signing of u18 players.

Edited by francis#17
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1 hour ago, denv said:

clearly there were some issues with the way the WPs were issued in the beta which have now been addressed.

The main difference is that youth team playtime, both for clubs and internationally, are included now. Those were only late additions to the rules, which were originally only going to run on senior team playtime for clubs and internationally (which is what was in FM21 originally too, until the compromise for young players was agreed to). The FA compromised with the EPL by allowing youth games to count, in exchange for the restriction on the number of u21 players you could sign. 

This compromise will restrict the number of foreign players we see coming through youth academies and u18 teams, because English clubs won't be able to sign them under the age of 18, but may increase the number of club affiliations we see between UK-based and foreign clubs, as UK clubs, particularly the Premier League teams and the likes of Rangers and Celtic, will be wanting to get agreements with foreign teams with exceptional youth academies to get first dibs on their best players, since they aren't going to be able to take risks on young foreign players as much.

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6 hours ago, denv said:

I think then it's quite safe to say Brexit isn't going to "ruin" games

You're right, 100%.

I feel like now it's been officially announced and implemented in game, and now there is a working editor fix for those that don't want it, anyone saying it's ruining their game needs to consider an alternative game tbh.

FM has always been a simulation and on that basis the correct rules should 100% be implemented.

Just wish Scotland would hurry up and announce their rules so they can be applied too!

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I'm trying to figure out how the WP system works as it doesn't seem to have any consistency unless I am missing something.  Take these 3 players I signed in my second season of an Arsenal save - Kaiky (joining in January), Manuel Ugarte and Matteo Lovato.  Only Kaiky got a WP, with no youth caps and no senior games for his club.  Lovato (Italy) and Ugarte (Uruguay) have been capped at U21/U23 level, and Ugarte played 55 games in the Uruguayan league but didn't get a WP. 

1600683212_2020-12-05(3).thumb.png.ba8f224a44dc9626312ba8da4bf5459f.png

272652793_2020-12-05(4).thumb.png.83dc46332a22022ae7a670b35b7b9161.png

840265693_2020-12-05(5).thumb.png.ae7b1ad823f8cb27f1d76150b6c27471.png

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196066783_2020-12-05(8).thumb.png.1539193f9098f980725c708367039bce.png

Edited by jdubsnz
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23 minutes ago, jdubsnz said:

I'm trying to figure out how the WP system works as it doesn't seem to have any consistency unless I am missing something.  Take these 3 players I signed in my second season of an Arsenal save - Kaiky (joining in January), Manuel Ugarte and Matteo Lovato.  Only Kaiky got a WP, with no youth caps and no senior games for his club.  Lovato (Italy) and Ugarte (Uruguay) have been capped at U21/U23 level, and Ugarte played 55 games in the Uruguayan league but didn't get a WP. 

The WP system also takes into account the level of the club, where they came in their league, which league they're in, if they appeared on the squad list for any senior team matches (even if they didn't play and just sat on the bench), etc, which we can't tell from the pictures you posted. It'd make sense that Ugarte didn't get a work permit though, as the Uruguayan league is low enough that it only counts as a Band 6 ("other") league, and so scored minimum points on the work permit points schedule here: https://www.thefa.com/-/media/thefacom-new/files/rules-and-regulations/2020-21/gbe-criteria/gbe-mens-players-criteria-jan-2021.ashx

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1 hour ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

The WP system also takes into account the level of the club, where they came in their league, which league they're in, if they appeared on the squad list for any senior team matches (even if they didn't play and just sat on the bench), etc, which we can't tell from the pictures you posted. It'd make sense that Ugarte didn't get a work permit though, as the Uruguayan league is low enough that it only counts as a Band 6 ("other") league, and so scored minimum points on the work permit points schedule here: https://www.thefa.com/-/media/thefacom-new/files/rules-and-regulations/2020-21/gbe-criteria/gbe-mens-players-criteria-jan-2021.ashx

makes sense then, thank you.  I can't seem to loan Ugarte anywhere as well!

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A great article today in The Athletic about how the Brexit rules around U18s will actually have very little impact on the Premier League.

Which highlights another question, is FM extremely unrealistic (previously) in that you can sign a number of u18s on previous FMs and they practically always became a success based on the potential. Where as in real life how many 16 year olds have been signed from abroad and actually made a success of it? Fabregas gets mentioned but probably another 20 signed that didn't make it. 

So actually these rules could aid FM in becoming more realistic.

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On 04/12/2020 at 20:24, samdiatmh said:

oh... so we'll ignore the fact I've poached a 17yo Argentinean regen, before he's even played a competitive game
this is awkward

Seems quite random signed a couple columbians 15 y/o another who was 18 international failed........

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My save was updated and it is much better now. It is a fair challenge to play in England now, not impossible/not fun like it was before the update. Bigger clubs "know what they have" with wonderkids most of the time, so you have to pay-up, but you can still find some gems. I have gotten some good, cheap prospects from the Mexican league in particular. 

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Much has been made on the whole issue of not being able to sign foreign players unless they've played a certain % of international matches/points etc. but I have a few questions.

I tried signing a Turkish youth international on a free who made no international appearances but made first team appearances for Trabzonspor in the Turkish league. He was recommended by my scouts (who are blissfully unaware of these rules) and the work permit was rejected. When will a patch be introduced that scouts might just get a bit of common sense and recommend players more likely to get work permits?

Secondly, I checked another team (Cardiff) and they signed August Frobenius from Sporting on a free in the 3rd season on the game. Norwegian DC, made no international appearances, and 0 appearances for Sporting. He doesn't have a second nationality and has yet to make a 1st team appearance for any team except for Norway at U19 level. How did they manage to sign him? My save has the points based system work permit rules, and I can't even sign a player with 1st team experience.

I also had troubles selling a midfielder (Tunisian/French) who came through the club's youth system so would've been in the country (and at the club) for at least 5 seasons. 

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Not moved onto fm21 yet but in 2023 on fm20 an the rules are brilliant. Players I’d never normally be able to sign as premier league side are easily purchasable (talking Brazilian wonder kids etc). Faced no wp issues at all so far. In contrast to fm19 where which ever random Brexit rules popped up, it always put me off managing in England an id stay abroad. 

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12 hours ago, MrBannystar said:

Much has been made on the whole issue of not being able to sign foreign players unless they've played a certain % of international matches/points etc. but I have a few questions.

I tried signing a Turkish youth international on a free who made no international appearances but made first team appearances for Trabzonspor in the Turkish league. He was recommended by my scouts (who are blissfully unaware of these rules) and the work permit was rejected. When will a patch be introduced that scouts might just get a bit of common sense and recommend players more likely to get work permits?

Secondly, I checked another team (Cardiff) and they signed August Frobenius from Sporting on a free in the 3rd season on the game. Norwegian DC, made no international appearances, and 0 appearances for Sporting. He doesn't have a second nationality and has yet to make a 1st team appearance for any team except for Norway at U19 level. How did they manage to sign him? My save has the points based system work permit rules, and I can't even sign a player with 1st team experience.

I also had troubles selling a midfielder (Tunisian/French) who came through the club's youth system so would've been in the country (and at the club) for at least 5 seasons. 

This is the tricky part of things, could you see whether he made any B team or youth team appearances for Sporting? Past seasons only show league appearances so it makes it hard to tell in FM, whether they might have played in a cup match or even sat on the bench for a match, which is enough to garner some points.

And how did Sporting do league wise and European wise in the previous season? Primeira Liga is a Band 2 league, so there can be a fair few points in that. And did that previous season coincide with the u19 Euros or any related qualifiers?

Without having all the data for a player - especially youth players or players hanging around the fringes of the senior squad - it can be tough to see.

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5 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

This is the tricky part of things, could you see whether he made any B team or youth team appearances for Sporting? Past seasons only show league appearances so it makes it hard to tell in FM, whether they might have played in a cup match or even sat on the bench for a match, which is enough to garner some points.

And how did Sporting do league wise and European wise in the previous season? Primeira Liga is a Band 2 league, so there can be a fair few points in that. And did that previous season coincide with the u19 Euros or any related qualifiers?

Without having all the data for a player - especially youth players or players hanging around the fringes of the senior squad - it can be tough to see.

He made 9 non-competitve appearances last season (not even their B Team), and Sporting came 3rd in the league as far as I can tell. He played 3 matches in the U-19 tournament for Norway, but that was after he signed for Cardiff (looks like they signed him on a pre-contract agreement). Previous data isn't available. 

Out of interest, I clicked on 'Make an Offer' just to see what came up, and the red bar saying "hasn't played in 70% etc." didn't come up, but for other members of the Norwegian U-19 squad it did. 

I've also got other academy players without British citizenship who have been at the club for at least 5 years but can't get moves to other clubs because of the rules. Surely that can't be right? Methinks SI have dropped the ball slightly as there is seemingly no consistency. I know many others have already said this, but I really wish SI wouldn't try and predict the future. By all means introduce the rules into the game after they are announced in real life, but not until then.  

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5 hours ago, MrBannystar said:

I've also got other academy players without British citizenship who have been at the club for at least 5 years but can't get moves to other clubs because of the rules. Surely that can't be right? 

Nope, that'd be correct. Being national or club trained doesn't mean anything for work permits, only nationality/citizenship does, so if they haven't taken British citizenship, they'd still require work permits until they do.

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8 hours ago, MrBannystar said:

He made 9 non-competitve appearances last season (not even their B Team), and Sporting came 3rd in the league as far as I can tell. He played 3 matches in the U-19 tournament for Norway, but that was after he signed for Cardiff (looks like they signed him on a pre-contract agreement). Previous data isn't available. 

Out of interest, I clicked on 'Make an Offer' just to see what came up, and the red bar saying "hasn't played in 70% etc." didn't come up, but for other members of the Norwegian U-19 squad it did. 

I've also got other academy players without British citizenship who have been at the club for at least 5 years but can't get moves to other clubs because of the rules. Surely that can't be right? Methinks SI have dropped the ball slightly as there is seemingly no consistency. I know many others have already said this, but I really wish SI wouldn't try and predict the future. By all means introduce the rules into the game after they are announced in real life, but not until then.  

Gotcha - ya I think we'll just have to trust the math SI does under the covers when we cannot really see all of the player data in FM, the way we can in the real world where we have access to all the stats.

Homegrown only counts for competitions, but doesn't for work permits. Theoretically once the player has been in the UK 5 years he can apply for permanent residency/citizenship. I've actually had this happen a few times in FM20, when I had a no Brexit save and it didn't matter.

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I did uncover an issue last night playing my Birmingham City save.

In my 2nd season and trying to offload Fran Villalba (who was on loan in Spain first season). I accepted an offer from WBA, he agreed terms but then failed the WP so the transfer got cancelled by WBA. I then offered him out to clubs and WBA put an offer in again despite the fact that he had just failed to get a WP for them and they cancelled the deal. I thought they might sign him and loan him out to try and get the necessary WP points. When the contract was accepted the same thing happened with the WP and they cancelled the deal again. 

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6 hours ago, TioPatinhax said:

quick question please, if an english club wants to buy a non-UK player currently playing in Scotland, what rules apply? Does he need another work permit?

 

Thanks

Yep, same as they'd need a new work permit when buying someone off another English team.

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20 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

Thanks. And what band is the Scottish league to the English league in terms of work permit?

Band 3: https://www.thefa.com/-/media/thefacom-new/files/rules-and-regulations/2020-21/gbe-criteria/gbe-mens-players-criteria-jan-2021.ashx

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