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23 minutes ago, anderson36015 said:

Does the tweet from Miles seem to say it was a legal thing, and this is why it isn't clear in game? 

Like they've been told what the rules would be but weren't allowed to say for legal reasons? 

Might be made clearer now it's official

SI were in discussion with the FA/PL/EFL, and not just in a listening to them stance. So they would have to have been careful about aspects that would have been in negotiation (because the FA and PL won't have seen eye to eye on this that's for sure)

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2 hours ago, Amarante said:

If the FA plays like a bitch its just gonna force the bigger clubs to create a super league and they have nothing they can do or say about it. 

No Super League wouldn't get approval from the governing bodies, so it's a complete non-starter if I have understood it right.

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4 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

While nefarious at the top level suppose a parent has a legitimate job in the UK. Obviously it will be much harder for anyone to get a work permit in general but for those that are there legitimately is the FA really going to stop kids from playing who's parents decide to move? 

I know this isn't an FM topic or modelled in FM so I don't want to continue down this route if its too off topic for the purposes of this forum.

FM wont go down that route obviously, but i'd argue its an area for concern in real life, gets very shady

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1 minute ago, Peter G said:

No Super League wouldn't get approval from the governing bodies, so it's a complete non-starter if I have understood it right.

Yep. In theory they can leave whenever they want. However, since national bodies wouldn't ratify it, anyone playing in that competition would be barred from representing their countries. So in practice its a non starter

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Having read the detailed rules (with the caveat I am quite tired), the rules dont seem to have much affect at all on prem clubs, apart from the no u18 players. I think the no u18 players could actually be a good decision. 

 

@Junkhead are you sure those NF players wouldnt pass? Just playing games for a band 4 club would get you around 12 points

Edited by francis#17
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I surely hope now that all is announced, SI will provide more info for the managers attempting to buy foreign players, perhaps via scouts informing the manager that "player A will get so many points because of playing so many games for country and so many games for club". Miles just replied to my tweet telling me to post on the forum's suggestions forums, but I think this topic here is the place to push for such changes to be included in the hotfix being prepared. 

For me, that fix will determine whether i'll buy the game i've been playing since the CM days, or it'll be the first year that i'll have to skip...

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Except none of those players would be able to play international football as it wouldn't be a ratified competition. This is partly why there's still not been a breakaway. 

Yeah but let's be honest here though, No matter how big the FAs try to talk and act, these national teams aren't gonna leave the best players in the country at home. 

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30 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

So are premier league clubs just going to move a whole family now to get someone in their academy at 14/15? 

Because they haven't been doing that before now :p

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4 minutes ago, Amarante said:

Yeah but let's be honest here though, No matter how big the FAs try to talk and act, these national teams aren't gonna leave the best players in the country at home. 

 They would be barred by FIFA, who would be backing the FAs. It's quite literally why it hasn't happened already. Even the top super clubs arent ready to go to war with FIFA

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

 They would be barred by FIFA, who would be backing the FAs. It's quite literally why it hasn't happened already. Even the top super clubs arent ready to go to war with FIFA

The war between the players and FIFA is gonna happen soon enough. FIFA only has powers if people listen to them. The players can simple refuse to listen to FIFA. Not like FIFA can take them to court. It's similar to how UEFA and FIFA is gonna go at it when FIFA launches their super league. 

If the top clubs decide to no longer listen to FIFA/UEFA/FA then there isn't anything that can be done because at the end of the day its those clubs/players who brings in the money. 

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2 minutes ago, swansongs said:

Because they haven't been doing that before now :p

Shhhh don't tell the FA!

But it wouldn't shock me if this practice increased. Particularly to get kids into their academy before they're presumably no longer eligible to be a rider on their parent's work permit. Dirty football if you ask me.

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3 minutes ago, Amarante said:

The war between the players and FIFA is gonna happen soon enough. FIFA only has powers if people listen to them. The players can simple refuse to listen to FIFA. Not like FIFA can take them to court. It's similar to how UEFA and FIFA is gonna go at it when FIFA launches their super league. 

If the top clubs decide to no longer listen to FIFA/UEFA/FA then there isn't anything that can be done because at the end of the day its those clubs/players who brings in the money. 

We're off topic now, but its always later. The super league break away chat has been around since 2002. It's almost 2021, and they have never taken a step other than leaking it to the public every couple of years. The players aren't going to refuse either. There's a reason why you've only ever head a couple of club heads, and not a single player speak on it

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21 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

We're off topic now, but its always later. The super league break away chat has been around since 2002. It's almost 2021, and they have never taken a step other than leaking it to the public every couple of years. The players aren't going to refuse either. There's a reason why you've only ever head a couple of club heads, and not a single player speak on it

pretty sure it was the idea of the G14 back in 2000

might regain some traction in the forthcoming years (with players not really getting a break until Summer 2023) - because of the impacts of COVID
Euro21 sees no European-based summer break (next year), and then WC22 will disrupt the schedule accordingly (so goodbye Summer-break in 2022)

Summer2023 is the next "extended" break, and this "player welfare" talk is only going to get louder (heck, Klopp and Guardiola are talking about it now)

Edited by samdiatmh
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1 hour ago, anderson36015 said:

Does the tweet from Miles seem to say it was a legal thing, and this is why it isn't clear in game? 

Like they've been told what the rules would be but weren't allowed to say for legal reasons? 

Might be made clearer now it's official

I was always under the impression that SI had their ear on the rail and were getting info from knowledgable parties. They have a lot of contacts in the game. And was sort of an easy "read between the lines" moment from this tweet by Miles where he indicated he was legally unable to discuss Brexit.

He confirmed again being legally disallowed from talking about Brexit

 

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On 27/11/2020 at 05:56, Rakiye said:

This is unbelievable. SI's Russian roulette rules are causing people to be fearful of starting a new game in England because they don't want their save ruined by their best guess. Yet, we cant even edit it out due to a fault with the editor...

Talk about an absolute mess! Again, why include a hypothetical guess about politics in a football simulation game that's meant to be a form of escapism??

Nobody is arguing with Brexit happening and I for one voted for it. That is not the issue. The issue is the ridiculously stringent worst case game breaking scenarios that keeps being spewed out that quite frankly are unworkable, unforgiving and most certainly not going to happen. No decision has been made yet over this IRL and I sincerely doubt it will be to the detriment of English football.  

To be perfectly honest, Id rather that they included Covid19 over this in the game because at least that has already happened and we know where we stand before we start a new save...

All I have witnessed from SI is Anti-Brexit scenarios regarding people playing the game. Not once have I seen somebody say that Brexit benefitted their game and it has worked out better. That for me would suggest they are playing politics and they are trying to influence peoples feelings regarding the political situation by making their game more difficult to play with no found evidence to support it.

It was a nice advertisement gimmick two years ago SI, but lets get rid of it until its gospel.

I'm usually pretty good at picking up satire and I must admit this one took me a while to realise it couldn't possibly be genuine. A really good effort, well done.

I particularly enjoy the bit where you think Brexit - a scheme designed to restrict access to the UK by those from abroad - is going to somehow benefit a football league obsessed with signing foreigners. Really, really, good comedy writing. I'll be keeping an eye on future posts for more of your stuff, keep up the good work!

 

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On 30/11/2020 at 13:56, longruoi1 said:

Anyway FM is just a game eventually. In my opinion SI made a huge mistake killing the experience for a large part of the player base. I am not sure about the sale figures, but there will be some changes if the numbers are not good enough.

It wasn't SI that made a huge mistake here.

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6 minutes ago, Bruce Drundrige said:

I'm usually pretty good at picking up satire and I must admit this one took me a while to realise it couldn't possibly be genuine. A really good effort, well done.

I particularly enjoy the bit where you think Brexit - a scheme designed to restrict access to the UK by those from abroad - is going to somehow benefit a football league obsessed with signing foreigners. Really, really, good comedy writing. I'll be keeping an eye on future posts for more of your stuff, keep up the good work!

 

Absolutely baffled how this got so many upvotes despite the person writing this obviously not understanding the impact of Brexit or thinking SI just randomly came up with the Brexit rules.

Even more surprised the mods let it up given its a straight political attack towards SI. Absolute nonsense. Who would change their minds regarding Brexit due to a video game implementing this? 

Only thing I'm not surprised about is that this person voted for Brexit... 

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4 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

Who would change their minds regarding Brexit due to a video game implementing this?

I won't be surprised if the impact of Brexit on football (ergo Football Manager) is the first "personal" experience and engagement some people have of the situation.

Edited by Harper
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Just now, Harper said:

I won't be surprised if the impact of Brexit on football (ergo Football Manager) is the first "personal" experience some people have of the situation.

That's a damn luxury position to be in if that's the first thing you notice from Brexit. 

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5 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

That's a damn luxury position to be in if that's the first thing you notice from Brexit. 

"Unfortunately, we missed signing the guy in this transfer window because he was stuck in a queue at Dover. He's been there since last Tuesday."

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23 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

That's a damn luxury position to be in if that's the first thing you notice from Brexit. 

Or, you aren't British. I didn't say first thing you notice. I said first thing personally experienced.

As I am not British (or any Schengen Area nationality), the impact of Brexit on football and Football Manager is the second experience I will have with regards to Brexit. The first was having travelled to the UK shortly after the 2016 vote, and the dollar to pound exchange rate was slightly more favorable than my previous visit in 2014.

Edited by Harper
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27 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

Absolutely baffled how this got so many upvotes despite the person writing this obviously not understanding the impact of Brexit or thinking SI just randomly came up with the Brexit rules.

Even more surprised the mods let it up given its a straight political attack towards SI. Absolute nonsense. Who would change their minds regarding Brexit due to a video game implementing this? 

Only thing I'm not surprised about is that this person voted for Brexit... 

because 99.999% of people have their head buried in the sand, and think "well, it ain't gonna change" - so the effective 'bribing' that was in last-years version was still expected to work (which essentially the "submitted with a wage over XYZ would be sufficient" was)

 

it's pretty notable in other companies (when they're restructuring / going bankrupt), as to how many people are just "well, nothing will change, my job is safe" - and it's the VERY few that are panicking and sorting their affairs out (before the masses are plonked onto the same unemployment queue)
heck, I'm pretty sure COVID (and the expected government benefits) was a pretty big shock to the system (the queues for benefits in Australia back in March were fairly well documented)

Edited by samdiatmh
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3 hours ago, francis#17 said:

Having read the detailed rules (with the caveat I am quite tired), the rules dont seem to have much affect at all on prem clubs, apart from the no u18 players. I think the no u18 players could actually be a good

I'd have thought the limit on overseas U21 players would also be salient.

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On 14/11/2020 at 16:00, boroinbishop said:

Have to agree, the Brexit Scenario has really killed any excitement for the game I had this year, trying to sign players for Middlesbrough at the start of the third season and it is impossible, I can't sign anyone from abroad at all due to not being able to afford international superstars! I usually find lesser known players with potential to give me a chance of competing but this year that seems like it's going to be impossible.

Tried to sign unknowns using everton, said they didn't qualify for the work permit, but went through anyway, since its out of contract signings or cheap ones...

 

Kinda intrigued to see if they would finally obtain a work permit/got an england passport...

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4 hours ago, Double0Seven said:

Absolutely baffled how this got so many upvotes despite the person writing this obviously not understanding the impact of Brexit or thinking SI just randomly came up with the Brexit rules.

Even more surprised the mods let it up given its a straight political attack towards SI. Absolute nonsense. Who would change their minds regarding Brexit due to a video game implementing this? 

Only thing I'm not surprised about is that this person voted for Brexit... 

It's the line "Not once have I seen somebody say that Brexit benefitted their game and it has worked out better" that did it for me. Absolute comedy gold. 

 

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8 hours ago, francis#17 said:

Having read the detailed rules (with the caveat I am quite tired), the rules dont seem to have much affect at all on prem clubs, apart from the no u18 players. I think the no u18 players could actually be a good decision. 

 

@Junkhead are you sure those NF players wouldnt pass? Just playing games for a band 4 club would get you around 12 points

I've relooked at it this morning (it was late) and you're right - Table 6 seems to make all the difference.  I can't work out if table 6 is always used?  If so, then pretty much every import from larger Euro nations will be ok.

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7 hours ago, Bruce Drundrige said:

I'm usually pretty good at picking up satire and I must admit this one took me a while to realise it couldn't possibly be genuine. A really good effort, well done.

I particularly enjoy the bit where you think Brexit - a scheme designed to restrict access to the UK by those from abroad - is going to somehow benefit a football league obsessed with signing foreigners. Really, really, good comedy writing. I'll be keeping an eye on future posts for more of your stuff, keep up the good work!

 

He's a Brexiter so its less satire and more his actual thinking no doubt. But hilarious that I made the joke on page 1 of this thread that "this isn't the Brexit the Gammons voted for" and here we are...

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Satire and Brexiteering aside, at least we can all finally draw a line under this and move on with the correct rules in place once the game has been patched. We now know the correct rules and we can all make an informed choice as to whether or not we wish to start a save in Britain. Amen to that! 

My only hope now is we see better attribute scores on British kids in the future and not lots of inflated ones on cheaper foreign alternatives that temped us to sign from abroad in the first place...

Edited by Rakiye
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3 hours ago, Rakiye said:

My only hope now is we see better attribute scores on British kids in the future and not lots of inflated ones on cheaper foreign alternatives that temped us to sign from abroad in the first place...

Because British talents have consistently been so underrated... :rolleyes:

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Excellent details.

I'm torn about the transparency matter- realistically, a club/scout could work out the number of points they think a player would get, make an approach, and be told they're wrong due to some of the ambiguity you highlight ("midtable", multiple continental competitions etc.). So, I don't think it needs to be crystal clear- there's enough wiggle room, interpretation and the appeals process to be considered. As such, I wouldn't be against something that said "we think this player will get X points", with some scope for inaccuracy. 

The flip side is that if a player is rejected, the firm numbers should be provided, explaining how the insufficient total was reached- they scored X from this, Y from this and Z from this. That way, there's a way of seeing how close to the mark they were, and what they failed on. It opens up the avenue for a more in-depth appeals process (I'm envisaging like the job interview system), or whether they are worth signing with a view to getting a permit in future because of their weaker areas. 

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4 minutes ago, Lawlore said:

I'm torn about the transparency matter- realistically, a club/scout could work out the number of points they think a player would get, make an approach, and be told they're wrong due to some of the ambiguity you highlight ("midtable", multiple continental competitions etc.). So, I don't think it needs to be crystal clear- there's enough wiggle room, interpretation and the appeals process to be considered. As such, I wouldn't be against something that said "we think this player will get X points", with some scope for inaccuracy.

I very much agree that there should be some room for scouts error and I would love to see 'we think the player will get X points'. It would also highlight those we might want to keep an eye on if the situation for that player changes.

For those of us who really care we can always perform the calculations ourselves (assuming SI follows the same calculation the FA will be using)

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I did say British kids not English players. But hey-ho.

When looking for wonderkids the game does tend to favour Portugal, Brazil & Argentina attributes wise over the British ones IMO. But we digress from the topic and I am just pleased I don't have to scour the editor forum anymore to figure out which advanced rules to tweak to rid me of the Brexit burden...

Now I just keep checking for a Hotfix.

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11 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

I'd have thought the limit on overseas U21 players would also be salient.

Extremely rare that a club signs more than 6 foreign u21 players anyway so it wont have an effect. These rules really wont affect Prem and Championship clubs that much. And league 1 and 2 clubs dont have many foreigners anyway.

The big change is no u18 players which will mean prem clubs put more focus on getting their academies better and improve the quality of english players which I think is probably a good decision. Means we wont get a Fabregas coming through though but imo the reward outweighs the risk.

Also wont be able to sign players from obscure leagues that dont play many games. In this type of case it's highly unlikely youll miss out on a wonderkid that's not playing any games in an obscure league.

Edited by francis#17
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7 hours ago, Junkhead said:

I've relooked at it this morning (it was late) and you're right - Table 6 seems to make all the difference.  I can't work out if table 6 is always used?  If so, then pretty much every import from larger Euro nations will be ok.

Yep table 6 occurs when you are in at least 1 league matchday squad or played in at least 1% of the minutes in the countries domestic cup

Edited by francis#17
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Just now, francis#17 said:

Yep table 6 occurs when you are in at least 1 league matchday squad or played in at least 1% of the minutes in the countries domestic cup

That's what I thought. So what's the point of the other table then? The one that goes on about league finishes?

Feel like I've spent too much time on this and my brain has truly been scrambled lol

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5 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

That's what I thought. So what's the point of the other table then? The one that goes on about league finishes?

Feel like I've spent too much time on this and my brain has truly been scrambled lol

Haha so you get points for the league you play in, number of games you played in the league, the position you finished in the league, how far you got in continental competitions, number of continental competition minutes and international appearances.

Players that are u21 have the equivalent but for youth leagues and competitions if they arent in the first team yet.

All of this seems more than small tweaks in terms of how it affects the user. It's very lenient. I hope SI implement this properly.

Edited by francis#17
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6 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

Haha so you get points for the league you play in, number of games you played in the league, the position you finished in the league, how far you got in continental competitions and international appearances.

The number of points you get for the points 

So an uncapped 25 year old reserve  player in a relegated team in Belgium would straight away be on 20+ points even if he was an unused sub once in his entire career, as long as it was last season?

If so, then that isn't anything like what I was expecting (and is never in a million years the brexit that people voted for 😂)

That can't be right, surely.

Edited by Junkhead
Have had another look - he would be on 12 points. But exactly the same situation in the French league but the club qualify for Europe and he would be in. So original point still stands - not what I expected.
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5 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

So an uncapped 25 year old reserve  player in a relegated team in Belgium would straight away be on 20+ points even if he was an unused sub once in his entire career, as long as it was last season?

If so, then that isn't anything like what I was expecting (and is never in a million years the brexit that people voted for 😂)

That can't be right, surely.

Well people didnt vote for brexit wanting it to affect football tbf. It's just a bit more restrictive than free movement, and tbh this what I expected as the FA got what it wanted with the no foreign u18 players which did affect British youth players. The FA want the prem to continue being the leading league.

This is politics now but the government, particularly in a post covid world, can not afford to have the countries economy negatively affected. London still needs to be a financial hub of the world if the country wants to remain as one of the leading countries.

Edited by francis#17
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4 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

So an uncapped 25 year old reserve  player in a relegated team in Belgium would straight away be on 20+ points even if he was an unused sub once in his entire career, as long as it was last season?

If so, then that isn't anything like what I was expecting (and is never in a million years the brexit that people voted for 😂)

That can't be right, surely.

I don't think it is right. If the player didn't actually play in said relegated Belgian team or appear on the matchday squad list (they were just in the reserves) and they were uncapped, then they'd get:

Table 1: Zero points
Table 2:  Zero points
Table 3: Zero points
Table 4: Zero points
Table 5: Zero points
Table 6: Zero points

In order to get the 15 points they'd require (since I can't see such a player getting through the Exception Committee), they'd need to play at least 40-49% of the total match minutes available in the first team to get 5 points from Table 2, and 10 points from Table 6.

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5 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

I don't think it is right. If the player didn't actually play in said relegated Belgian team or appear on the matchday squad list (they were just in the reserves) and they were uncapped, then they'd get:

Table 1: Zero points
Table 2:  Zero points
Table 3: Zero points
Table 4: Zero points
Table 5: Zero points
Table 6: Zero points

In order to get the 15 points they'd require (since I can't see such a player getting through the Exception Committee), they'd need to play at least 40-49% of the total match minutes available in the first team to get 5 points from Table 2, and 10 points from Table 6.

He said they appeared in 1 matchday squad which would mean they get 10 points. To pass they will have to have played some minutes or played some international games. So they wouldnt get the 20 points JunkHead said.

So this type of player wouldnt pass but I dont think that will really matter to clubs anyway as this is normally not the type of player they want to buy.

Edited by francis#17
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18 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

 

He said they appeared in 1 matchday squad which would mean they get 10 points. To pass they will have to have played some minutes or played some international games. So they wouldnt get the 20 points JunkHead said.

So this type of player wouldnt pass but I dont think that will really matter to clubs anyway as this is normally not the type of player they want to buy.

You're right, I was presenting a bit of a straw man argument there. Even still, the point is that it's far more lenient than I expected, unless I've misunderstood. Comfortable holding my hands up and saying I can't quite believe it's this lenient. 

100% right to not get into politics - all I will say is that given how close we are going to come to a no deal, I think the government are willing to take more risks with the economy than you are giving them credit for 🙄

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1 hour ago, CM said:

Is there anybody who has not updated? Want to see work permit rules section to see what has changed. 

Nothing Changed in my save.

I may load up the benchmarks and my beta save to see if I had anything different.

 

v21.1.2

image.thumb.png.27f3606d73a8d4bae285628e99231ece.png

v21.1.3 - 8 March 2021 Immediately After Updateimage.thumb.png.6a0fecd1f36aeec305500b86fdc35a05.png

v21.1.3 - 1 July 2021 (After season turnover)

1759152077_ScreenShot2020-12-02at11_27_15AM.thumb.png.63aeac8e07a3e6d7d61e9ab1a9d165f4.png

 

Fresh Save - Holiday to 1 Jan 2021

632294978_ScreenShot2020-12-02at11_35_56AM.thumb.png.3593dd0b071a7cb2d83a2b13f68c8400.png

Edited by Harper
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I know that Brexit is a hot topic, and one that inspires not a small amount of passion in people regardless of whether it's the impact of it purely on football or wider society, but we expect there to be a certain degree of respect and collaborative discussion here between members, not making hyperbolic statements about the impact of the work permit rules (in one hidden case, referring to SI's work permit rules as a "North Korean Dictatorship"), suggesting that people who have demonstrated they're discussing things in good faith of "wanting a rant" in order to ignore their points, etc.

There are also the forum rules on behaviour, feedback and conduct to take into account.

If people can remember to keep those points in mind in future, so this can be a useful and interesting discussion about the impact of a real-life event on in-game play, and so we don't need to hide offensive posts or apply warnings to people, that'd be super and make our job much easier, thanks :)

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