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36 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

See I think this is the bit that people are mistaken on.

There are two things at play here. The first is the work permit system. Getting a work permit is likely to be tougher under the new points based system. The Home Secretary has said as much. Lots of people on this thread have an idea in their minds that football will find a way around this.

Which brings me to the second point and the point everyone who thinks this is missing. The work permit system and the 17 foreign player rule are separate issues.  You could theoretically fill a squad with 30 foreign nationals if they all got work permits under UK employment law, the same as any industry could fill it's work force with foreign nationals if they all got work permits. However the FA is going to limit it even further which would mean in the scenario I've mentioned, 13 of those 30 players would not be able to be registered to play, work permit or not.

The NHS is not going to limit itself to x amount of foreign doctors per hospital. Manufacturing is not going to limit itself to y amount of foreign engineers per factory.

Yet football is going to impose further limits on itself in addition to the work permit rules set out by the Home Office.

Yet this thread is full of people convinced that English football is going to be less impacted than other sectors. It's bizarre.

 

I think it'd go a long way for FM to give us an idea of how close a player is to reaching the points. Assuming it's coming from here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement

You'd need the mandatory 50 points of which the first two shouldn't really be an issue. Intermediate English probably isn't an issue for EU members but SA and Asia it might be a little more challenging. Then you need 20 points from the next two tradeable tables. However, no footballer will have a phd and probably wouldn't be considered a new entrant into the labour market. So unless being a footballer considered in a shortage by MAC the only way to get to 70 points is being a top 10% earner among footballers in England. 

I mean it's pure speculation but the established Premier league teams would have such an advantage in getting work permits approved. As if there needed to be a bigger gulf between the haves and have nots.

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15 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

I think it'd go a long way for FM to give us an idea of how close a player is to reaching the points. Assuming it's coming from here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement

You'd need the mandatory 50 points of which the first two shouldn't really be an issue. Intermediate English probably isn't an issue for EU members but SA and Asia it might be a little more challenging. Then you need 20 points from the next two tradeable tables. However, no footballer will have a phd and probably wouldn't be considered a new entrant into the labour market. So unless being a footballer considered in a shortage by MAC the only way to get to 70 points is being a top 10% earner among footballers in England. 

I mean it's pure speculation but the established Premier league teams would have such an advantage in getting work permits approved. As if there needed to be a bigger gulf between the haves and have nots.

That's the only real issue I have as well, if a player was not too many games off the right points I'd know at least to go back for him in the next window. 

SI have obviously taken legal advice on how it's expected to go to implement this so I'm fine with the rules just the transparency would help I think. 

Not that it ever is a level playing field but going forward this will benefit the bigger clubs who can afford the permit qualifying elite players, will also increase English player prices even more ridiculously probably. All while the lower teams are basically in a closed off internal uk market. 

I'm only managing in the championship so not sure how anyones seen this effect the bigger teams on fm yet? 

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22 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

I think it'd go a long way for FM to give us an idea of how close a player is to reaching the points. Assuming it's coming from here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement

You'd need the mandatory 50 points of which the first two shouldn't really be an issue. Intermediate English probably isn't an issue for EU members but SA and Asia it might be a little more challenging. Then you need 20 points from the next two tradeable tables. However, no footballer will have a phd and probably wouldn't be considered a new entrant into the labour market. So unless being a footballer considered in a shortage by MAC the only way to get to 70 points is being a top 10% earner among footballers in England. 

I mean it's pure speculation but the established Premier league teams would have such an advantage in getting work permits approved. As if there needed to be a bigger gulf between the haves and have nots.

Yeah I don't think people realise quite how restrictive its actually going to be. And thats something the FA have no problem with. Obviously the PL do, but the power here is with the FA, unfortunately for the PL one of the few times the FA hold most if not all the cards.

I agree a more information in game would be useful

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3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Yeah I don't think people realise quite how restrictive its actually going to be. And thats something the FA have no problem with. Obviously the PL do, but the power here is with the FA, unfortunately for the PL one of the few times the FA hold most if not all the cards

From what I've gathered from this thread the FA is making it even more restrictive with the 17 foreign player limit. Based on how restrictive it is I don't see how all 17 slots will ever be used.

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1 minute ago, wazzaflow10 said:

From what I've gathered from this thread the FA is making it even more restrictive with the 17 foreign player limit. Based on how restrictive it is I don't see how all 17 slots will ever be used.

The FA have always liked it restrictive, it only changed in the past after immense pressure from the EU, so really not surprised to see it that come back. Extremely counter-intuitive but thats the route they seem to be on, and a LOT would need to change in 4 weeks for it to not be the case, and there's no evidence of that happening

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There doesn't seem to be much news coverage of this to say what an impact it could have. I've learned more from this thread than anywhere else! 

I guess judging by a lot of people's reactions many others haven't either. 

I'd seen the 17 foreign player rule and not known much about the criteria behind it. Guessing the big clubs are secretly OK with it as it will empower them further, or those break away european super league talks weren't coincidental timing. 

 

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Foreign player limit is kind of like home-grown rule but clubs will have to have 8 UK based players to abide by that. I assume it will not be a big problem but proposed WP system on the other hand, I don't know. 

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personally I have seen no concrete proof (in 14 pages), that Brexit negatively affects a game, other than some "well, this random guy doesn't get a WP, hope SI fix"

I've contributed (at least) 3 posts where the game (with the points system), doesn't affect gameplay for the top-flight in any way

 

personally I think this has gone beyond the point of being about FM, and is just a "political" post now

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22 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The FA have always liked it restrictive, it only changed in the past after immense pressure from the EU, so really not surprised to see it that come back. Extremely counter-intuitive but thats the route they seem to be on, and a LOT would need to change in 4 weeks for it to not be the case, and there's no evidence of that happening

Not at this point no. I think a lot of the frustration would be eased in the game (whether the rules are correct or not) if there was more transparency with the process and not just some binary yes/no recommendation. The steps to getting a WP should be fairly clear in game. Otherwise I think there's going to be a lot of upset people trying to do england saves.

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6 minutes ago, samdiatmh said:

personally I have seen no concrete proof (in 14 pages), that Brexit negatively affects a game, other than some "well, this random guy doesn't get a WP, hope SI fix"

I've contributed (at least) 3 posts where the game (with the points system), doesn't affect gameplay for the top-flight in any way

 

personally I think this has gone beyond the point of being about FM, and is just a "political" post now

It might not affect the top flight but there's 5 other leagues that will be seriously impacted based on how and what the WP criteria is. If there is a wage restriction there will be nearly zero foreign talent in the Championship and below.

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I have mixed feelings about this.

Over the last few years I thought I was being devilishly clever buying up Brazilian and Argentinian wonderkids for 15 to 20 million; players the equivalent of whom European teams were asking £107 million or similar.  That ship appears to have sailed in FM2021.

While I can accept that door has closed, it is a bit crappy that you cannot buy a promising French, German or Spanish kid for a couple of million and ease them in to your team and watch them flourish in ability and value.

When all is said and done, if this Brexit "innovation" is making the game less enjoyable, which imo it is, then I cannot see how it can be interpreted as positive.

 

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10 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

If there is a wage restriction there will be nearly zero foreign talent in the Championship and below.

so... exactly how it is IRL then?


name me 1 club (below Championship), who's squad currently would be negatively affected by this

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7 minutes ago, samdiatmh said:

so... exactly how it is IRL then?


name me 1 club (below Championship), who's squad currently would be negatively affected by this

Any club that would want to sign a foreign player would be affected. 

As its highly unlikely whoever would be willing to go to them would meet the required points total for a permit. And any players already there might not be guaranteed to be allowed to stay/work beyond the original settled status period 

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still no concrete evidence, just a "well, they won't be able to"

 

I'm still waiting for that influx of Brazilians into League1, which FM users have been stating should have been happening since 2005
let's face it, clubs in League-1 (and below), just aren't signing players from outside the UK, let alone Europe

Coventry City (who won League 1 last year), have a total of 9 non-UK first nationals in their squad currently
3 of them have been in the UK since 2015 (Marosi started his career at Wigan in 2013, Bakayoko started his career at Walsall in 2013, Biamou has been in the UK since the 15/16 season),
another 2 of which were signed from the Eredivise (Kastaneer and Hamer both played over 20 times in their last season in the Eredivise),
1 is onloan from a larger club (Ostigard, who has 10 u21 international appearances),
and the other 3 barely play (having come off the bench a total of 3 times in 16 games)

as they currently sit 20th in the Championship, are they signing hoards of SouthAmericans to actually compete? (and this is pre-Brexit, so no WP rules to worry about)

 

let's be honest here, the only people complaining about it have been openly exploiting a loophole since at least FM05, and are annoyed that "it's unrealistic" because it's finally been closed (forcibly, due to the actions of the British population)

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3 minutes ago, samdiatmh said:

still no concrete evidence, just a "well, they won't be able to"

 

I'm still waiting for that influx of Brazilians into League1, which FM users have been stating should have been happening since 2005
let's face it, clubs in League-1 (and below), just aren't signing players from outside the UK, let alone Europe

Coventry City (who won League 1 last year), have a total of 9 non-UK first nationals in their squad currently
3 of them have been in the UK since 2015 (Marosi started his career at Wigan in 2013, Bakayoko started his career at Walsall in 2013, Biamou has been in the UK since the 15/16 season),
another 2 of which were signed from the Eredivise (Kastaneer and Hamer both played over 20 times in their last season in the Eredivise),
1 is onloan from a larger club (Ostigard, who has 10 u21 international appearances),
and the other 3 barely play (having come off the bench a total of 3 times in 16 games)

as they currently sit 20th in the Championship, are they signing hoards of SouthAmericans to actually compete? (and this is pre-Brexit, so no WP rules to worry about)

 

let's be realistic here, the only people complaining about it have been openly exploiting a loophole since 2005, and are annoyed that "it's unrealistic" because it's finally been closed

As far as I know south american imports won't have any difference, they have always needed work permits anyway. This is a change in players from EU countries who previously had free movement but now would go through similair processes to the south Americans. 

Hence why you have never seen this Brazilian influx in the lower leagues. 

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21 minutes ago, anderson36015 said:

As far as I know south american imports won't have any difference, they have always needed work permits anyway. This is a change in players from EU countries who previously had free movement but now would go through similair processes to the south Americans. 

Hence why you have never seen this Brazilian influx in the lower leagues. 

and there's even a limited amount of EU nationals within the lower leagues currently, so the "well it's unfair" claim just isn't accurate, it has ZERO impact on lower-league clubs in reality

Coventry City (who won League One last season), have a total of 3 players in their squad this season that may have failed the Brexit criteria, and they've appeared a total of 3 times in 16 games (and all off the bench)
Not exactly a fundamental loss to them, they could very easily be replaced by UK-based residents

The only thing that Brexit "breaks", is the long-term exploitation that the human manager has had access to, which goes a LONG way to solving the "AI Squad building" issue that's plagued longer term saves since about FM11
Finally human managers have a similar limitation to the AI, and it's arguably made it a more equal playing field

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6 minutes ago, samdiatmh said:

and there's even a limited amount of EU nationals within the lower leagues currently, so the "well it's unfair" claim just isn't accurate, it has ZERO impact on lower-league clubs in reality

Coventry City (who won League One last season), have a total of 3 players in their squad this season that may have failed the Brexit criteria, and they've appeared a total of 3 times in 16 games (and all off the bench)
Not exactly a fundamental loss to them, they could very easily be replaced by UK-based residents

The only thing that Brexit "breaks", is the long-term exploitation that the human manager has had access to, which goes a LONG way to solving the "AI Squad building" issue that's plagued longer term saves since about FM11
Finally human managers have a similar limitation to the AI, and it's arguably made it a more equal playing field

Oh yeah I agree with you some are just complaining as they can't play as before. 

 

But it will have an effect irl. Even a trickle down effect as championship teams have to buy British, usual league one players could be bumped up to championship teams and so on just to form squads. It could really reduce and distort the quality in the lower leagues. 

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9 minutes ago, samdiatmh said:

and there isn't an influx of foreign-nationals into the domestic league anyway, so the "well it's unfair" claim just isn't accurate, it has ZERO impact on lower-league clubs in reality

Coventry City (who won League One last season), have a total of 3 players in their squad this season that may have failed the Brexit criteria, and they've appeared a total of 3 times in 16 games (and all off the bench)
Not exactly a fundamental loss to them, they could very easily be replaced by UK-based residents

 

The only thing that Brexit "breaks", is the long-term exploitation that the human manager has had access to, which goes a LONG way to solving the "AI Squad building" issue that's plagued longer term saves since about FM11
Finally human managers have a similar limitation to the AI, and it's arguably made it a more equal playing field

I disagree. I never buy young players from South America to "exploit" the game as I don't have time to play more than 3 or 4 seasons usually. I am a Birmingham City fan and managing them on FM. We have signed a lot of players from Spain in the last 2 seasons, none of which I imagine would get a WP on FM21. I agree with your post about league 1 and 2 teams signing foreign players as that is a rarity. Like I have said many times in this thread, personally I am enjoying the chsllenge but would like more transparency with who can and cant get a WP and why/how far off they are.

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1 hour ago, Geckoman said:

I have mixed feelings about this.

Over the last few years I thought I was being devilishly clever buying up Brazilian and Argentinian wonderkids for 15 to 20 million; players the equivalent of whom European teams were asking £107 million or similar.  That ship appears to have sailed in FM2021.

While I can accept that door has closed, it is a bit crappy that you cannot buy a promising French, German or Spanish kid for a couple of million and ease them in to your team and watch them flourish in ability and value.

When all is said and done, if this Brexit "innovation" is making the game less enjoyable, which imo it is, then I cannot see how it can be interpreted as positive.

 

Having the real rules on the game isn't an innovation. It's how it's always been.

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1 hour ago, anderson36015 said:

Any club that would want to sign a foreign player would be affected. 

As its highly unlikely whoever would be willing to go to them would meet the required points total for a permit. And any players already there might not be guaranteed to be allowed to stay/work beyond the original settled status period 

As a supporter of a championship club full to the brim of average foreign journeymen, I say bring it on.

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1 hour ago, samdiatmh said:

are they signing hoards of SouthAmericans to actually compete? (and this is pre-Brexit, so no WP rules to worry about)

South Americans need work permits to play for Coventry pre-Brexit.

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To update, I am at Newcastle in 2025 and the situation is alright.

Last window, I was  able to sign foreign players for fees in the range £7 to £20 million.  As others have said, your scouts will mostly report "work permit unlikely", but where this particular comment is absent, which it is in a decent amount of cases, it seems to indicate that the player will get a work permit.

So, in essence, post Brexit it is more restrictive to sign non UK players, but by no means impossible.

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Does brexit also has an effect on how old the player has to be, when you san sign him ? Or it doesnt matter on the age of the player ? You could stil sign players who have 15, 16 etc, years and are from other countries than England ?

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18 minutes ago, blejdek said:

Does brexit also has an effect on how old the player has to be, when you san sign him ? Or it doesnt matter on the age of the player ? You could stil sign players who have 15, 16 etc, years and are from other countries than England ?

People moving on a transfer under 18 only happened to players with EU nation citizenship because of freedom of movement. Following Brexit, it no longer applies to anyone, so the player move would only take place once they're 18 and into a transfer window.

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Try managing in Norway where you're restricted to a maximum of 9 non-homegrown players in a squad of 30.  The 17 foreign player limit in the PL is generous in comparison (which has what has appeared in my save).

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1 hour ago, TioPatinhax said:

@Junkhead it looks like these will be the rules. These rules were widely reported. Let's see anyway.

Separately the game doesnt seem to be broken because of the Brexit implementation but I think there are a few oddities. But I'll do a proper check later today. Now we just need the regen issue fixed.

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1 hour ago, francis#17 said:

@Junkhead it looks like these will be the rules. These rules were widely reported. Let's see anyway.

Separately the game doesnt seem to be broken because of the Brexit implementation but I think there are a few oddities. But I'll do a proper check later today. Now we just need the regen issue fixed.

Thanks :thup:

I actually saw this article last week when I posted the article from that law firm on the thread. It gives some info but I'm not convinced how much of it is speculative. It appears as if they are talking to the club but then quotes the daily mail.

Either way, as you say, it's pretty consistent with the rest of the info out there. That article was just before things were submitted to the home office for approval - which was a fortnight ago and no confirmation still.

It will be interesting to see the outcome of the current negotiations taking place between Britain and the EU as it looks like a deal is going to be reached. That may see at least an extension of free movement for a limited period which will change things again.

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14 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

It will be interesting to see the outcome of the current negotiations taking place between Britain and the EU as it looks like a deal is going to be reached. That may see at least an extension of free movement for a limited period which will change things again.

And hence why SI should have allowed a no-brexit option via game or pre-game editor, until the rules were known and fact. 

However well founded the rules in the game are still speculative.

Just saying :)

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16 hours ago, samdiatmh said:

I've contributed (at least) 3 posts where the game (with the points system), doesn't affect gameplay for the top-flight in any way

 

 

It's not all about the Tourist League you know. 

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34 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Thanks :thup:

I actually saw this article last week when I posted the article from that law firm on the thread. It gives some info but I'm not convinced how much of it is speculative. It appears as if they are talking to the club but then quotes the daily mail.

Either way, as you say, it's pretty consistent with the rest of the info out there. That article was just before things were submitted to the home office for approval - which was a fortnight ago and no confirmation still.

It will be interesting to see the outcome of the current negotiations taking place between Britain and the EU as it looks like a deal is going to be reached. That may see at least an extension of free movement for a limited period which will change things again.

Completely forgot that the negotiations to do with free movement will mean the prem rules will change. I'll wait for the official rules before I start a long term save

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1 hour ago, FM Addick said:

Is it confirmed that post 1 January 2021, clubs will not be able to appeal rejected WP applications? Because that is what is happening here. 

From the details provided, it appears that the appeals panel is being removed. Instead, it'll be that if they missed out on getting 15 points, but did get 14-12 points, they'll be looked at by the exemptions committee. However, that's done at the time of the application, rather than a post-rejection appeals process.

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1 hour ago, bringbacklilnux said:

And hence why SI should have allowed a no-brexit option via game or pre-game editor, until the rules were known and fact. 

However well founded the rules in the game are still speculative.

Just saying :)

Never argued with that, just said I wasn't surprised that they hadn't 😉

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1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's not all about the Tourist League you know. 

This is it. Whatever the brexit outcome, any concessions will only exist to protect the interests of the top clubs. The gap will widen even further.

Personally I'm hoping for me/few concessions because it would simply mean a more level playing field and help my club. Not bothered about what it means to FM frankly.

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4 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

This is it. Whatever the brexit outcome, any concessions will only exist to protect the interests of the top clubs. The gap will widen even further.

Personally I'm hoping for me/few concessions because it would simply mean a more level playing field and help my club. Not bothered about what it means to FM frankly.

I'm surprised I havent heard more noise from championship clubs about the whatever the new rules will be

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55 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

 

I'm surprised I havent heard more noise from championship clubs about the whatever the new rules will be

In fairness if it means we don't renew the contracts of some of our lot, it will be a good thing for the club I support 😂

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18 minutes ago, metalhead765 said:

 

withe the owner you have  all bets are off ..So anything can happen

Yet somehow still infinitely better than the last bloke, believe it or not...

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https://www.premierleague.com/news/1922063

lol at all the people in this thread whining about the Brexit rules in their game that are in some cases actually less strict than what is actually to be implemented IRL from January 1st. Get used to it, this is how it will be managing in Britain from now on. 

Even worse were the people claiming SI were making it all up, when what is currently in the game is based on the information they get from contacts across the football industry and what has been public in the media for years now. Seems like they were proven right after all :rolleyes:

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22 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The FA have always liked it restrictive, it only changed in the past after immense pressure from the EU, so really not surprised to see it that come back. Extremely counter-intuitive but thats the route they seem to be on, and a LOT would need to change in 4 weeks for it to not be the case, and there's no evidence of that happening

If the FA plays like a bitch its just gonna force the bigger clubs to create a super league and they have nothing they can do or say about it. 

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To the know it alls: Did you actually read the article?

Nowhere in that does it state the Brexit will be anything like what SI have implemented, it is a points based system - that is all that we know from it and that's all we knew from before. Nowhere does it state a player cannot get a work permit if they have no international caps, youth caps, or whatever else. It is all decided by an exceptions panel, all clubs will have to do is ensure the player is to a high enough quality for the club signing them.

In fact, there are no specifics in that at all - and because all the parties involved had such an easy time figuring the outcome would mean to me it is favourable for the clubs recruiting.

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6 minutes ago, s1111 said:

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1922063

lol at all the people in this thread whining about the Brexit rules in their game that are in some cases actually less strict than what is actually to be implemented IRL from January 1st. Get used to it, this is how it will be managing in Britain from now on. 

Even worse were the people claiming SI were making it all up, when what is currently in the game is based on the information they get from contacts across the football industry and what has been public in the media for years now. Seems like they were proven right after all :rolleyes:

Can you quote one sentence from that article to suggest that the real life implementation of the SI fairytale is going to be as stringent as SI's. There is nothing in that to suggest that. They don't even disclose how many points are required, it could be that the player has to be required to be playing first team football at a reasonable level. There is no specifics for you even to act holier than thou.

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1 minute ago, nb9 said:

To the know it alls: Did you actually read the article?

Nowhere in that does it state the Brexit will be anything like what SI have implemented, it is a points based system - that is all that we know from it and that's all we knew from before. Nowhere does it state a player cannot get a work permit if they have no international caps, youth caps, or whatever else. It is all decided by an exceptions panel, all clubs will have to do is ensure the player is to a high enough quality for the club signing them.

In fact, there are no specifics in that at all - and because all the parties involved had such an easy time figuring the outcome would mean to me it is favourable for the clubs recruiting.

You can't really read can you?

How do you think the point based system is judged by? 

image.png.f5bdccfc1e7e358229d99585d66ae872.png

Literally Whats in my Brexit save right now

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