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Apologies if this has already been covered.

 

In my save I have bought a player (Lee Kang-in), who should need to play in 40% of the international games to automatically qualify for a work permit based on his nation's world ranking.  He has played in 7 of the 9 games for Korea in the past year - but has just been rejected for a work permit for the second time?

 

Is this a bug or am I missing something?

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1 hour ago, jahbepraised1 said:

Apologies if this has already been covered.

 

In my save I have bought a player (Lee Kang-in), who should need to play in 40% of the international games to automatically qualify for a work permit based on his nation's world ranking.  He has played in 7 of the 9 games for Korea in the past year - but has just been rejected for a work permit for the second time?

 

Is this a bug or am I missing something?

If he's played senior international games for over a year, it'd be 40% of matches over 2 years to qualify.

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3 hours ago, TioPatinhax said:

Wont this also kill the scottish league? How will Rangers and Celtic sign good foreigners now

I honestly don't know what level of influence the devolved government mas over its own employment laws. I suspect none, but am quite comfortable that I might be wrong.

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3 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

I honestly don't know what level of influence the devolved government mas over its own employment laws. I suspect none, but am quite comfortable that I might be wrong.

For immigration? None. Immigration law isn't a devolved part of legislation, Westminster is responsible for it.

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Just now, JordanMillward_1 said:

For immigration? None. Immigration law isn't a devolved part of legislation, Westminster is responsible for it.

Suspected as much - thanks.

I mean I'm not sure it's fair that Brexit is blamed for killing the Scottish League anyway. Think that ship sailed some time ago. :lol:

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10 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Suspected as much - thanks.

I mean I'm not sure it's fair that Brexit is blamed for killing the Scottish League anyway. Think that ship sailed some time ago. :lol:

I mean, the Scottish FA can determine their own policies for who they'll approve on their side for a work permit, but they tend to follow the English FA.

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6 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

I mean, the Scottish FA can determine their own policies for who they'll approve on their side for a work permit, but they tend to follow the English FA.

I would expect the English FA will get whatever concessions it can and of course the Scottish FA will logically try to get the same ones. Can't see the home office having different rules for each.

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1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

I would expect the English FA will get whatever concessions it can and of course the Scottish FA will logically try to get the same ones. Can't see the home office having different rules for each.

The Scottish FA's work permit policy has been different from the English FA's work permits policy for years already. And it's been replicated in Football Manager for years. Until you hit Brexit, then they just become the same, which is nonsense.

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2 minutes ago, Smoo said:

The Scottish FA's work permit policy has been different from the English FA's work permits policy for years already. And it's been replicated in Football Manager for years. Until you hit Brexit, then they just become the same, which is nonsense.

Fair enough, not something I was aware of.

Can you explain the difference? Quite interested how things differ now because as you say, you would assume the differences pre Brexit would remain pro Brexit.

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Basically, in FM, if a player has a good PA, he'll get a work permit. In real life, if a club can convince an SFA panel that the player in question will "be an asset to Scottish football" he'll get a permit.

Edited by Smoo
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16 minutes ago, Smoo said:

Basically, in FM, if a player has a good PA, he'll get a work permit. In real life, if a club can convince an SFA panel that the player in question will "be an asset to Scottish football" he'll get a permit.

Ok, is that not the same as the English system? 

Genuinely don't know the answer here so not being pedantic, but I'm sure the "asset to English football" is a thing?

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No, in England it's dictated purely by international appearances until the end of this year. And work permits have never been linked to a players Potential Ability in England's system. It's incredibly easy to sign wonderkids in Scotland, assuming you have the money to buy them. If I was managing in England, I'd sign them and then send them on loan to Scotland for 6 months where they would easily get work permits.

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56 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Ok, is that not the same as the English system? 

Genuinely don't know the answer here so not being pedantic, but I'm sure the "asset to English football" is a thing?

Essentially yes seeing as players who are an asset to the Scottish game would also you'd imagine be high Ability and Potential players...(relative to the quality of Scottish football)

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1 hour ago, Smoo said:

No, in England it's dictated purely by international appearances until the end of this year. And work permits have never been linked to a players Potential Ability in England's system. It's incredibly easy to sign wonderkids in Scotland, assuming you have the money to buy them. If I was managing in England, I'd sign them and then send them on loan to Scotland for 6 months where they would easily get work permits.

Interesting, if the Scottish rules stay the same post brexit I wonder if it english clubs will do this 

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9 hours ago, Smoo said:

No, in England it's dictated purely by international appearances until the end of this year. And work permits have never been linked to a players Potential Ability in England's system. It's incredibly easy to sign wonderkids in Scotland, assuming you have the money to buy them. If I was managing in England, I'd sign them and then send them on loan to Scotland for 6 months where they would easily get work permits.

Then what I have read must relate to after brexit in England, perhaps at appeal. Thanks 👍

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8 hours ago, kiwityke said:

Essentially yes seeing as players who are an asset to the Scottish game would also you'd imagine be high Ability and Potential players...(relative to the quality of Scottish football)

No, England don't use the same rules as Scotland.

 

8 hours ago, francis#17 said:

Interesting, if the Scottish rules stay the same post brexit I wonder if it english clubs will do this 

Probably not, I get the feeling I was cheesing the work permit system in a way that wouldn't be allowed to happen IRL.

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What do you guys think will happen in Scotland? A hard brexit as well? Im on a save with Rangers at the moment, 2 months away from reaching January and I also got hit by this super hard Brexit. Im not sure if I should remove or not in terms of realism going forward... any tips here are welcome. Thanks.

Edited by TioPatinhax
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5 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

What do you guys think will happen in Scotland? A hard brexit as well? Im on a save with Rangers at the moment, 2 months away from reaching January and I also got hit by this super hard Brexit. Im not sure if I should remove or not in terms of realism going forward... any tips here are welcome. Thanks.

From what @JordanMillward_1posted earlier, the devolved Scottish government is not in a position to set it's own immigration rules and will therefore be subject to the hard brexit which is absolutely inevitable in respect of general immigration. 

How that translates into football - English or Scottish - is anyone's guess at this point. Factually though, as things stand, football is in exactly the same position and will be following the same rules as every other industry in the UK.

If concessions are granted to football (which is still unclear at this point but becoming surely less likely as time goes on), then I would be surprised if Scottish football gets a better deal than English football if I'm honest. But then "better" is relative. The English FA may well wish to limit foreign players believing it would increase the standard of the national side, whereas the Scottish FA may be more focused on increasing league standard.

In a nutshell, as it stands it will be the same. Beyond that, no one knows.

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15 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

What do you guys think will happen in Scotland? A hard brexit as well? Im on a save with Rangers at the moment, 2 months away from reaching January and I also got hit by this super hard Brexit. Im not sure if I should remove or not in terms of realism going forward... any tips here are welcome. Thanks.

Officially, the Home Office want the English FA to establish new work permit rules and force them onto all four home nations. The SFA want the current system in Scotland to remain in place, but I doubt they'll have much luck getting a Conservative government to relax immigration rules to suit Scotland.

Personally, I say play the game the way it makes you happier. If you want realism don't remove brexit, if the new rules prevent you from enjoying the game, remove it. I haven't removed it, I'm just starting season 2 with Rangers and it's a challenge but it's not impossible getting new players.

Edited by Smoo
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4 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

How that translates into football - English or Scottish - is anyone's guess at this point. Factually though, as things stand, football is in exactly the same position and will be following the same rules as every other industry in the UK.

 

That's not true. Football has it's own set of rules for work permits. A plumber doesn't need to represent his nation in international plumbing. Plus, the new visa requirement of £26,500 p/a would see most footballers get a work permit no problem.

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3 minutes ago, Smoo said:

Officially, the Home Office want the English FA to establish new work permit rules and force them onto all four home nations. The SFA want the current system in Scotland to remain in place, but I doubt they'll have much luck getting a Conservative government to relax immigration rules to suit Scotland.

Personally, I say play the game the way it makes you happier. If you want realism don't remove brexit, if the new rules prevent you from enjoying the game, remove it. I haven't removed it, I'm just starting season 2 with Rangers and it's a challenge but it's not impossible getting new players.

Great advice this. It's worth considering that Scotland will have an advantage because I think it's fair to say that it will have a larger pool of players from England that will improve the standard of its league than vice versa.

England's league ranking will almost certainly decrease but I am not sure Scotland's will.

It is worth considering too that Scottish teams performed a lot better in Europe back in the days where the Scottish Leagues had less foreign players. A return to that would surely be welcomed

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Some really good tips here, thank you guys. Personally, I still dont know what to do, but for me I think the ideal scenario would be a brexit, but with sligthly more relaxed rules at least for Scotland.

 

Dont know if its possible to implement this midsave though, even with a 3rd party software

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20 minutes ago, Smoo said:

That's not true. Football has it's own set of rules for work permits. A plumber doesn't need to represent his nation in international plumbing. Plus, the new visa requirement of £26,500 p/a would see most footballers get a work permit no problem.

Football has its own rules because the Home Office allows it. 

The salary threshold is not going to be the only contributor towards the points calculation.

If the home office allow this to continue then things will likely carry on as normal. There is no evidence that they will do though.

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3 minutes ago, daboss88 said:

 think this is incredibly unrealistic. No way the actual rules will be this strict. I'm very frustrated, will have to restart my year long save with a no brexit mod. 

You might be best waiting until the rules are announced because when they are, they will be implemented in the game.

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10 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Football has its own rules because the Home Office allows it. 

The salary threshold is not going to be the only contributor towards the points calculation.

If the home office allow this to continue then things will likely carry on as normal. There is no evidence that they will do though.

I don't quite understand what you mean. The Home Office have already instructed the FA, Premier League and Football League to determine new rules for work permits. Those rules are in FM21.

Edited by Smoo
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10 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

Some really good tips here, thank you guys. Personally, I still dont know what to do, but for me I think the ideal scenario would be a brexit, but with sligthly more relaxed rules at least for Scotland.

 

Dont know if its possible to implement this midsave though, even with a 3rd party software

Yeah if anyone figures out how to implement this mid-save let me know. Other wise I am stuck using the editor to just give them English nationality. I'm just acting like they are still in the EU.

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19 minutes ago, daboss88 said:

Yeah if anyone figures out how to implement this mid-save let me know. Other wise I am stuck using the editor to just give them English nationality. I'm just acting like they are still in the EU.

You can't change those rules mid-way in a save, because they're determined by the database at the start of the save.

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2 minutes ago, Smoo said:

I don't quite understand what you mean. The Home Office have already instructed the FA, Premier League and Football League to determine new rules for work permits. Those rules are in FM21.

They haven't asked them to determine the rules. They've asked them for proposals. The proposals have been made and not yet accepted. It is still the home office which ratifies those proposals so it remains a home office decision at the end of the day.

It might seem churlish that I'm arguing this point because I think we are both saying the same thing in a slightly different way. But experience on this thread tells me that saying that "the FA decide the rules" will lead to another round of people being determined that the game is unrealistic in respect of what the rules will look like.

You and I both know that this isn't the case.

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18 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

They haven't asked them to determine the rules. They've asked them for proposals. The proposals have been made and not yet accepted. It is still the home office which ratifies those proposals so it remains a home office decision at the end of the day.

It might seem churlish that I'm arguing this point because I think we are both saying the same thing in a slightly different way. But experience on this thread tells me that saying that "the FA decide the rules" will lead to another round of people being determined that the game is unrealistic in respect of what the rules will look like.

You and I both know that this isn't the case.

Ah, I gotcha now. Yeah, fair enough.

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I've started a sim to go about 10 years into the future so I can see the effects of Brexit on the games balance. Im currently in December 20204 and these are my findings so far for the Premier League:

  • Foreign players are being signed by all Prem clubs, even some foreigners that are playing in second divisions and players that havent played much
  • Out of the big 6 only Liverpool have signed regens. Those regens included a player from the Brazilian and a player from the Argentinian league. Both players were about 17/18 when they signed and had played 1.5/2 seasons of first team football but only had 2 u20 caps. 
  • I saw a few instances of players being signed and never playing for the club, mostly being sent on loan straight away to EU countries. These weren't young players so it wouldnt have been for playing experience. This is likely due to work permit issues and is a massive waste of the clubs money 
  • I added a manager to take over Arsenal so that I could see if the teams had adjusted scouting with the new work permit rules. This is only one club but it doesnt look good. Out of the 30000 players they had scouted who would need a work permit, only 1000 of them are likely to get a work permit. The problems with this are that it means they are wasting loads of money scouting these players and I can see it leading to team building issues in the future. Ill see how it plays out as on the other hand they might still pump this much money into scouting so that they can find gems like the Brazilian and Argentinian players I mentioned

 

Edited by francis#17
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12 minutes ago, Adamtsmith17 said:

Anyway to get round brexit with the pre game editor ?

Same question here - any recommended editor files that address this.  I'm apprehensive to start a new game with such a strict interpretation of future state immigration laws.

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1 hour ago, TioPatinhax said:

How is this possible within a hard brexit?

You can sign them, buy they need a WP to play.

Then you can loan them out to _try_ to get a WP.  Although the game is less transparent about progress towards this goal, as far as I can tell.

 

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My scouts say Sandro Toneli is unlikely to get a work permit with 11 U21 caps, 3 senior caps for Italy and 106 apps in Serie A, but Kaio Jorge with 0 U21 caps and 0 caps for Brazil and 4 app in Brazilian league will get a permit??  

The game isn't worth playing if this isn't changed

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15 horas atrás, DawkeyMender disse:

My scouts say Sandro Toneli is unlikely to get a work permit with 11 U21 caps, 3 senior caps for Italy and 106 apps in Serie A, but Kaio Jorge with 0 U21 caps and 0 caps for Brazil and 4 app in Brazilian league will get a permit??  

The game isn't worth playing if this isn't changed

Is this true, SI?! If so, its just better to remove Brexit to avoid this nonsense

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I'm playing in the Scottish lower leagues, and in season 2, Brexit has come in. in League 1, there is now a squad registration with a 17-player foreigner limit. However, I still can't sign any foreign players because at that level, none of them are remotely good enough to get a work permit. It's a shame, as I have a French assistant manager, so I keep getting recommended good young French free agents, none of whom I can actually sign anymore (signed a few in the first season, and those have settled status now).

I've obviously misunderstood how the 17 foreign player rule works, as I thought this banished the requirement for a work permit. 

It's a journeyman save I'm on, so I'm not too fussed, but I think if I was to start a one-club long term save, I'd wait for a mod to disable Brexit from the game. I do feel this is something that should be selectable before you start a save, given the impact it can have on the game, particularly considering a sizeable majority of people who play the game will be managing in UK leagues. 

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14 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I'm playing in the Scottish lower leagues, and in season 2, Brexit has come in. in League 1, there is now a squad registration with a 17-player foreigner limit. However, I still can't sign any foreign players because at that level, none of them are remotely good enough to get a work permit. It's a shame, as I have a French assistant manager, so I keep getting recommended good young French free agents, none of whom I can actually sign anymore (signed a few in the first season, and those have settled status now).

I've obviously misunderstood how the 17 foreign player rule works, as I thought this banished the requirement for a work permit. 

It's a journeyman save I'm on, so I'm not too fussed, but I think if I was to start a one-club long term save, I'd wait for a mod to disable Brexit from the game. I do feel this is something that should be selectable before you start a save, given the impact it can have on the game, particularly considering a sizeable majority of people who play the game will be managing in UK leagues. 

In my current Hibs save, i've signed 2 players from Espanyol (both Spanish) but tried to sign another player (Spanish) from Zaragoza and his work permit was rejected. 

 

Now considering restarting my save and see if it's possible to remove brexit. 

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3 hours ago, TioPatinhax said:

Is this true, SI?! If so, its just better to remove Brexit to avoid this nonsense

Better to remove the entire rule and make things inaccurate for 4 of the 53 playable nation's rather than just tweak it to get it working right?

Bit of a silly suggestion, and also one that's not going to happen.

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1 hora atrás, Junkhead disse:

Better to remove the entire rule and make things inaccurate for 4 of the 53 playable nation's rather than just tweak it to get it working right?

Bit of a silly suggestion, and also one that's not going to happen.

I meant, for people already midsave i´d suggest removing brexit

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30 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

I meant, for people already midsave i´d suggest removing brexit

Won't be able to change it midsave. Dunno if the in game editor will be able to alter things?

 

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This is the confusing part. The Brexit rules state : " British Leagues which have a squad registration system, will now use a 17 foreign player in squad limit INSTEAD of the current work permit system. The rest of the leagues will continue with using work permits."

 

 So if I am playing Sunderland (Sky Bet League One has a registration system) for example. That tells me that I don't need a work permit for my players as long as they are registered, and I keep the number of foreign players under 17.     That's what it says, or am I missing something?

Edited by BOYERWULF
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1 hour ago, BOYERWULF said:

This is the confusing part. The Brexit rules state : " British Leagues which have a squad registration system, will now use a 17 foreign player in squad limit INSTEAD of the current work permit system. The rest of the leagues will continue with using work permits."

 

 So if I am playing Sunderland (Sky Bet League One has a registration system) for example. That tells me that I don't need a work permit for my players as long as they are registered, and I keep the number of foreign players under 17.     That's what it says, or am I missing something?

That's what I thought, but they still need to be able to get a work permit first. It's very confusing. 

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4 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

That's what I thought, but they still need to be able to get a work permit first. It's very confusing. 

Is it not both?

There is a limit of 17 foreign players per squad imposed by the FA, and every foreign employee will need a work permit after the transition period as per immigration law?

The 17 foreign player rule will not bypass immigration laws I don't think.

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14 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Is it not both?

There is a limit of 17 foreign players per squad imposed by the FA, and every foreign employee will need a work permit after the transition period as per immigration law?

The 17 foreign player rule will not bypass immigration laws I don't think.

Yeah, I get that, but I think it should be worded better. It does give the illusion of work permits not being required if you're in a league with squad registrations. 

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