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[Scotland] Data Issues


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17 hours ago, seanydude said:

Fwiw, the board just gave me £43m to spend in November. I’m aware of the finance issue obviously as I raised it but seems Pistol Pete is still not tight enough. I imagine he wakes up in hot sweats at the thought of spending that money 

Acht, cheers. During the earlier testing Celtic were spending huge (before budget data changed) in the second season but it was through sales. They were selling big, but in return, spending big, so we were trying to get Celtic to spend to avoid AI Peter waking up in sweats :lol:. It seems to be trial and error though! He's setup to negotitate the player/staff contracts and transfer targets contracts/finalise deals, with various attributes set to make him tight when splashing the cash and looking to get the best deal possible when selling. When you go in and ask for more in your budget, does he say ever say no? 
~
With Dermot Desmond set up to be the Celtic money man (resources in responsibilites) we're going to need to see if it's he, that also needs Lawwell esque attributes set, or if we need to set Lawwell to 'resources' to try and get Celtic acting like they do irl.

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15 minutes ago, Giro said:

Acht, cheers. During the earlier testing Celtic were spending huge (before budget data changed) in the second season but it was through sales. They were selling big, but in return, spending big, so we were trying to get Celtic to spend to avoid AI Peter waking up in sweats :lol:. It seems to be trial and error though! He's setup to negotitate the player/staff contracts and transfer targets contracts/finalise deals, with various attributes set to make him tight when splashing the cash and looking to get the best deal possible when selling. When you go in and ask for more in your budget, does he say ever say no? 
~
With Dermot Desmond set up to be the Celtic money man (resources in responsibilites) we're going to need to see if it's he, that also needs Lawwell esque attributes set, or if we need to set Lawwell to 'resources' to try and get Celtic acting like they do irl.

Makes sense. Well he took my £43m for the start of season 2 and replaced it with £17m so he is kind of Lawwell like. Hope you guys can get a happy medium :) 

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3 hours ago, chopper198481 said:

it appears at though some players sell on clauses are missing an example of this is that of Moussa Dembele he has a 10% clause that is missing.

That’d be a french data issue if true.

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Our Hearts researcher posted earlier in the thread that the backroom staff has been updated for the final release.

Karen Gibson left in the summer and is currently working freelance and is with Inverness Caley just now as their central belt physio.

I'm no' Hearts fan so can't comment on the players but am I unberstanding right? You don't think Cochrane should be rated highly as he's at Montrose on loan? I'd disagree entirely, as from what I've seen, he's still one of the best young prospects playing in the lower leagues and would love him as the legs in the middle of the park for Falkirk. Apologies if I haven't picked you up right.

 

Edited by Giro
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6 hours ago, Mpage2701 said:

Dundee missing youth players-

Cammy Blacklock

Jack Wilkie

Financial-

Dundee have a transfer budget of 250k, I reckon that's too high considering the financial position. I wouldn't be surprised if it was basically 0.

Blacklock's like the Aberdeen youths that until we can get a definite DoB, we can't add him, as unsure if he's 16 before our cutoff date. Going by Wilkie's twitter, he was 16 last December, so yeah, he should be added whenever we get the chance.

You're also right regarding the transfer budget.

Edited by Giro
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5 hours ago, chopper198481 said:

it appears at though some players sell on clauses are missing an example of this is that of Moussa Dembele he has a 10% clause that is missing.

Dundee United sell on for John Souttar (should be at least 10%) also missing. 

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12 hours ago, Bruce Drundrige said:

It's been sort of answered elsewhere on the thread, but you may not be aware they're not an amateur club anymore hence why they are also massive favourites for the league (despite having Ray McKinnon in charge).

I know not a data error response, but there just arent enough greenies for this :lol:

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Please review Bassey and Patterson at Rangers. Bassey has already made 4 or 5 appearances this season and has shown up well. He's only been kept out by the team by the Croatia first choice left back. Patterson is said to be the most exciting talent to come through the academy for years. Both of these players are now classed as squad players, not youth players and ability and potential should reflect that. 

Also, Helander is every bit as good as Goldson. Apart from a poor game in Europe recently he's been outstanding. Injury prone since he came, but he's been class when he plays. You would only have to watch any european game (apart from his mistakes against Benfica) or the latest Old Firm game to see he is a proper player who is a Swedish international and played in Seria A.

Davis can also play in Defensive Midfield. 

To balance the above I think Hagi has been slightly over rated. 

Absolutely loving the game, but can't go Rangers until some of the minor details are reviewed. 

Please Please Please at the very least watch clips of Bassey and Helander and re-evaluate

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23 minutes ago, djole said:

Ianis Hagi has a history that starts from age 3(!). Surely at least 10-12 years can be removed!

Sheesh! Will definitely get that looked at when we get the chance.

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Small thing, at Rangers Kevin Thomson is listed as a first team coach, I know you cant have joint managers but he is in charge of the B/Reserve team with Brian Gilmour. Either way he should be manager/coach of the B team not first team.

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10 minutes ago, jimbo22 said:

Small thing, at Rangers Kevin Thomson is listed as a first team coach, I know you cant have joint managers but he is in charge of the B/Reserve team with Brian Gilmour. Either way he should be manager/coach of the B team not first team.

Cheers, the 'double manager' will be what's happening here. Both Gilmour and Thomson are set in the db as Reserve manager, so the game's moving Thomson up one. We'll set one as Reserve Assistant whenever we get the opportunity.

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1 hour ago, KyleG said:

Please review Bassey and Patterson at Rangers. Bassey has already made 4 or 5 appearances this season and has shown up well. He's only been kept out by the team by the Croatia first choice left back. Patterson is said to be the most exciting talent to come through the academy for years. Both of these players are now classed as squad players, not youth players and ability and potential should reflect that. 

Also, Helander is every bit as good as Goldson. Apart from a poor game in Europe recently he's been outstanding. Injury prone since he came, but he's been class when he plays. You would only have to watch any european game (apart from his mistakes against Benfica) or the latest Old Firm game to see he is a proper player who is a Swedish international and played in Seria A.

Davis can also play in Defensive Midfield. 

To balance the above I think Hagi has been slightly over rated. 

Absolutely loving the game, but can't go Rangers until some of the minor details are reviewed. 

Please Please Please at the very least watch clips of Bassey and Helander and re-evaluate

Both Bassey and Patterson are SPFL Premiership level players with potential to be some of the best to play in the league.  Not sure you can say more than that after a half dozen games between them *cough* Hastie *cough*

As for the watch clips. You will find the researcher watches every game but if he doesn't it will be almost every game...

Edited by ATW
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10 minutes ago, ATW said:

Both Bassey and Patterson are SPFL Premiership level players with potential to be some of the best to play in the league.  Not sure you can say more than that after a half dozen games between them *cough* Hastie *cough*

As for the watch clips. You will find the researcher watches every game but if he doesn't it will be almost every game...

Just to add to this, you say that you can't go Rangers because of the 'issues' but it's exactly what we ask you to do every year. Don't just load up - look at attributes - complain. Play through for a season and see how the players are performing and more importantly, developing, then if you still feel there's an issue, let us know. Alot of the initial complaints of Rangers being underrated elsewhere, have quietened down now that folk have started playing through. As @ATW says Patterson & Bassey already have CAs that place them as first teamers  with everyone outwith the Glasgow 2, where, like irl, they're on the cusp and both have PAs that could see them be very good top flight players. 

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1 hour ago, ColognePar said:

Can you please consider adding Jock Stein and Bert Paton to the lists of either legends or icons for Dunfermline? Definitely Joe Cardle as "Favoured personnel" also. 

I'll pass these onto our Fifer researcher, not sure if he's on here👍. I can't see there being any argument not to include Stein and Paton next time we're able too

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Joe Newell played frequently at left back for Hibernian last season before his injury so perhaps unconvinced/competent?.

Alex Gogic aggression should be in the 15-18 definitely not 6 as he is by far most aggressive Hibs player.

Said it for a number of years David Gray should be an in the Icon Status simply for scoring a winner in stoppage time against rangers to bring Hibs their first Scottish cup since 1902.

Paul Hanlon's hidden stat professionalism should be much higher as he is bordering a model professional.

David Grays ability at the start of the game should be lower as he hasn't frequently played for about 2 years

Paul McGinn's ability should be a little higher as he has had a great start to life at easter road.

 

 

 

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Literally so many issues here from really poor CA & PA to poor transfer prices for players in the league. How there’s only 4 rangers players in the starting 11 with a PA of 4 or higher absolutely baffles me. Just shows how little they value the league and it’s a joke.

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2 minutes ago, Reiss Munro said:

Literally so many issues here from really poor CA & PA to poor transfer prices for players in the league. How there’s only 4 rangers players in the starting 11 with a PA of 4 or higher absolutely baffles me. Just shows how little they value the league and it’s a joke.

When I directed you here, I asked that you read the OP first. Please do that. Those instructions are important for a proper discussion around the issue you're presenting.

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7 minutes ago, Reiss Munro said:

Literally so many issues here from really poor CA & PA to poor transfer prices for players in the league. How there’s only 4 rangers players in the starting 11 with a PA of 4 or higher absolutely baffles me. Just shows how little they value the league and it’s a joke.

4 PA unsure what you mean

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19 minutes ago, Reiss Munro said:

Literally so many issues here from really poor CA & PA to poor transfer prices for players in the league. How there’s only 4 rangers players in the starting 11 with a PA of 4 or higher absolutely baffles me. Just shows how little they value the league and it’s a joke.

Hi Reiss,

The Scottish League is researched by a team of Scottish football fans who - I'm almost 100% sure - are all Scottish, are all season ticket holders at Scottish clubs and who all live in Scotland. We care about Scottish football and are entirely realistic about it.

I had a look at the posts you made to be directed to this thread and I would quash your argument where you claim "it’s a joke that championship players have better ratings" simply by saying this...

Rangers have a higher average CA for their top 16 players than any English Championship side. Even I was surprised by that.

I'm afraid on any objective level, your argument is not valid.

If there are specific examples of players you think are underrated, please let me know.

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2 minutes ago, jimbo22 said:

I assume hes talking about stars. Only Joe Aribo has a 5 star PA. The rest are 4 and below. 

The star system is relative to 

a) How good the coaching/scouting staff are rated on Judging Ability and Judging Potential 

b) The base level of ability at Rangers

Not what we rate them as.

Hope that makes sense.

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I feel that on a general level the Rangers and Celtic squads are underrated, perhaps its because I'm passionate about Scottish football. If you look at Rangers performances against Portuguese teams in the last 2 years they've won 3 drawn 2 yet the Portuguese teams seem on the surface to be so much better, granted I don't have access to the CA's so my point may be inaccurate. In the same conversation Celtic beat Lazio twice season, they may be doing much worse this season but I believe that's poor form rather than lack of ability. I don't mean to moan but its just my personal thoughts.       

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21 minutes ago, Stuart Milne said:

Hi Reiss,

The Scottish League is researched by a team of Scottish football fans who - I'm almost 100% sure - are all Scottish, are all season ticket holders at Scottish clubs and who all live in Scotland. We care about Scottish football and are entirely realistic about it.

I had a look at the posts you made to be directed to this thread and I would quash your argument where you claim "it’s a joke that championship players have better ratings" simply by saying this...

Rangers have a higher average CA for their top 16 players than any English Championship side. Even I was surprised by that.

I'm afraid on any objective level, your argument is not valid.

If there are specific examples of players you think are underrated, please let me know.

Almost the entire rangers team is underrated!!! 
 

nikola katic: CA- 3 PA-3 1/2

borna barisic: CA- 3 1/2 PA is the same

james tavernier: CA- 3 1/2 PA is the same


how can 2 fullbacks posting some of the best returns for goals and assists aswell as clean sheets this season not be 4 stars??

ryan jack: CA- 3 PA is the same

ryan Kent: PA only 4 despite the fact he’s the best player in the rangers team and on current form in the league in general. 
 

And as I already stated the transfer pricing of the players is an absolute joke in the game, especially when compared to much worse players who either cost more or are the same price it’s ridiculous.

 

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4 minutes ago, David19827 said:

I feel that on a general level the Rangers and Celtic squads are underrated, perhaps its because I'm passionate about Scottish football. If you look at Rangers performances against Portuguese teams in the last 2 years they've won 3 drawn 2 yet the Portuguese teams seem on the surface to be so much better, granted I don't have access to the CA's so my point may be inaccurate. In the same conversation Celtic beat Lazio twice season, they may be doing much worse this season but I believe that's poor form rather than lack of ability. I don't mean to moan but its just my personal thoughts.       

It's a fair point to make if you look at results, but Europe can be tricky to use as a measuring stick as they are one-offs.

If we're going on one offs then if Livi beats Celtic do we rate them similarly?

As it happens, Rangers and Celtic are pretty much on a part with the top clubs in Portugal, with Porto being a bit better than them both. I think that's fair.

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Raith Rovers -

Dylan Tait is no longer on a youth contract till 2021.  He signed a new deal in Feb this year which runs through to June 2022.   https://www.raithrovers.net/43340/dylan-tait.htm?pr=yes

Lewis Vaughan, on his injury history it's missing his third ACL injury, which he suffered on the 28th Sep 2019  https://www.raithrovers.net/41635/injury-update-lewis-vaughan.htm   He's still coming back from that, only managed the 20 mins or so against Hearts in the Betfred cup so far.  He's done both knees now, his right twice and his left once.

Quinn Coulson, Aaron Arnott and Kyle Bow are all on Modern Apprenticeships, along with Luke Mahady.  But only Luke is on a Youth contract in the game, should they not either all be on Full Contracts or all on Youth Contracts?  Luke  Aaron  Quinn Kyle

 

Edited by San Starko
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9 minutes ago, David19827 said:

I feel that on a general level the Rangers and Celtic squads are underrated, perhaps its because I'm passionate about Scottish football. If you look at Rangers performances against Portuguese teams in the last 2 years they've won 3 drawn 2 yet the Portuguese teams seem on the surface to be so much better, granted I don't have access to the CA's so my point may be inaccurate. In the same conversation Celtic beat Lazio twice season, they may be doing much worse this season but I believe that's poor form rather than lack of ability. I don't mean to moan but its just my personal thoughts.       

And Hearts beat Rangers twice and drew with them once...  see where that game gets you.  

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19 minutes ago, Stuart Milne said:

The star system is relative to 

a) How good the coaching/scouting staff are rated on Judging Ability and Judging Potential 

b) The base level of ability at Rangers

Not what we rate them as.

Hope that makes sense.

 Surely the base level for both rangers and Celtic should be increased then to better represent both teams and their players abilities it honestly can’t be underestimated just how well both clubs are doing both domestically and on the European stage!

rangers in the last 2 seasons have beaten the Portuguese, polish, danish champions 2 of whom are now in the champions league aswell as runners up and 3rd place in Portugal 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Reiss Munro said:

Almost the entire rangers team is underrated!!! 
 

nikola katic: CA- 3 PA-3 1/2

borna barisic: CA- 3 1/2 PA is the same

james tavernier: CA- 3 1/2 PA is the same


how can 2 fullbacks posting some of the best returns for goals and assists aswell as clean sheets this season not be 4 stars??

ryan jack: CA- 3 PA is the same

ryan Kent: PA only 4 despite the fact he’s the best player in the rangers team and on current form in the league in general. 
 

And as I already stated the transfer pricing of the players is an absolute joke in the game, especially when compared to much worse players who either cost more or are the same price it’s ridiculous.

 

If you have a look a few posts up you'll see that what you are defining as CA/PA and what we are defining as CA/PA are different.

I'm talking about how we actually rate them, while you are talking about how your coaches or scouts are rating them within the game based upon what they see as Rangers aspirational level.

So, if you think Rangers team is full of 5 star players at Rangers level, then fine, but if I was a Rangers fan, I'd look at Katic, Barisic and Tavernier and think "Well if we assume Brian Laudrup, Paul Gascoigne etc are five stars, these guys definitely aren't".

Do you see what I mean?

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3 minutes ago, Reiss Munro said:

Almost the entire rangers team is underrated!!! 
 

nikola katic: CA- 3 PA-3 1/2

borna barisic: CA- 3 1/2 PA is the same

james tavernier: CA- 3 1/2 PA is the same


how can 2 fullbacks posting some of the best returns for goals and assists aswell as clean sheets this season not be 4 stars??

ryan jack: CA- 3 PA is the same

ryan Kent: PA only 4 despite the fact he’s the best player in the rangers team and on current form in the league in general. 
 

And as I already stated the transfer pricing of the players is an absolute joke in the game, especially when compared to much worse players who either cost more or are the same price it’s ridiculous.

 

The stars aren't the real pa the stars are the judgement of a coach/scout in the game

 

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Just now, Stuart Milne said:

If you have a look a few posts up you'll see that what you are defining as CA/PA and what we are defining as CA/PA are different.

I'm talking about how we actually rate them, while you are talking about how your coaches or scouts are rating them within the game based upon what they see as Rangers aspirational level.

So, if you think Rangers team is full of 5 star players at Rangers level, then fine, but if I was a Rangers fan, I'd look at Katic, Barisic and Tavernier and think "Well if we assume Brian Laudrup, Paul Gascoigne etc are five stars, these guys definitely aren't".

Do you see what I mean?

That is completely incomparable. What I’m stating is that the players are underrated in the game which they are! I’m not for one second saying they’re comparable to legends of the club. That counter argument is ridiculous to even suggest

 

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1 minute ago, Stuart Milne said:

If you have a look a few posts up you'll see that what you are defining as CA/PA and what we are defining as CA/PA are different.

I'm talking about how we actually rate them, while you are talking about how your coaches or scouts are rating them within the game based upon what they see as Rangers aspirational level.

So, if you think Rangers team is full of 5 star players at Rangers level, then fine, but if I was a Rangers fan, I'd look at Katic, Barisic and Tavernier and think "Well if we assume Brian Laudrup, Paul Gascoigne etc are five stars, these guys definitely aren't".

Do you see what I mean?

And another variable is the coaching staff giving these star ratings. Their CA/PA. Their judging attributes. The star system is no way to tell us that player x CA is underrated.

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1 minute ago, Reiss Munro said:

That is completely incomparable. What I’m stating is that the players are underrated in the game which they are! I’m not for one second saying they’re comparable to legends of the club. That counter argument is ridiculous to even suggest

 

Until you actually understand what Stuart is trying to tell you about the in game star system and what it's for, you're going to keep howling into the wind.

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Just now, Reiss Munro said:

That is completely incomparable. What I’m stating is that the players are underrated in the game which they are! I’m not for one second saying they’re comparable to legends of the club. That counter argument is ridiculous to even suggest

 

But you aren't though. You are angry about how the coaches and/or scouts at Rangers perceive the players to be. That is entirely different to how they are actually rated.

If a player like Katic as a Current Ability of 125, how is that wrong in your eyes? Do you think Rangers wouldn't be able to sign a player with a Current Ability of 135? And if they did, and you had Katic as a 4 or 5 star player, then what should the 135 rated player be? 5 stars too?

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59 minutes ago, Stuart Milne said:

But you aren't though. You are angry about how the coaches and/or scouts at Rangers perceive the players to be. That is entirely different to how they are actually rated.

If a player like Katic as a Current Ability of 125, how is that wrong in your eyes? Do you think Rangers wouldn't be able to sign a player with a Current Ability of 135? And if they did, and you had Katic as a 4 or 5 star player, then what should the 135 rated player be? 5 stars too?

And in that example, if they were to sign a 135 player ingame, Katic would more than likely drop down to 3 stars... it's how the star system works, an in game coaches (with all their attribute variables) belief that player b is now better than player a at Rangers. Its not OUR ratings, it's not a worldwide rating scale. It's an in-game CLUB rating scale.

Anyhoo, biggest game in years, that we apparently care so little about, is now on!

Edited by Giro
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Thankfully this is only the beta but I do think too big a gap exists between the Old Firm that doesn’t exist anymore in real life.

Went on holiday there for 3 different seasons during the first half of the Euro Qualifiers and got similar results.

first season - Celtic won league by 22 points

second season - they won by 17 points

third season - Celtic by 22

Gerrard was also sacked midway through every season. (Almost as bad as him leaving to Bristol City etc in last years edition lol)

It honestly feels like FM 2017-19 where there was a genuine gap between the Old Firm reflective to real life. 

Maybe the researchers aren’t convinced by Rangers this season yet or maybe Celtic are too overpowered but I certainly think they should be looked at as I would have both at similar abilities etc. 

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10 minutes ago, simplythebest92 said:

Thankfully this is only the beta but I do think too big a gap exists between the Old Firm that doesn’t exist anymore in real life.

Went on holiday there for 3 different seasons during the first half of the Euro Qualifiers and got similar results.

first season - Celtic won league by 22 points

second season - they won by 17 points

third season - Celtic by 22

Gerrard was also sacked midway through every season. (Almost as bad as him leaving to Bristol City etc in last years edition lol)

It honestly feels like FM 2017-19 where there was a genuine gap between the Old Firm reflective to real life. 

Maybe the researchers aren’t convinced by Rangers this season yet or maybe Celtic are too overpowered but I certainly think they should be looked at as I would have both at similar abilities etc. 

It has already been said in this thread that they're closer than they've been since circa 2012. It seems to me that the people will access to the actual PA values in this thread are more than happy with the current standings of them.

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8 minutes ago, WeePaul said:

It has already been said in this thread that they're closer than they've been since circa 2012. It seems to me that the people will access to the actual PA values in this thread are more than happy with the current standings of them.

They are closer??

well of course they are going to be as Rangers have improved since Gerrard arrived and Celtic have regressed since Rodgers left over the last 18-24 months.

My argument is that gap should be non existent based on the events of this season so far as we are playing Football Manager 2021 (20/21).

Personally I think it’s a bit ridiculous that I have holidayed 3 seasons and each season Celtic have won the league by an average of 20 points lol.

 

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7 minutes ago, simplythebest92 said:

They are closer??

well of course they are going to be as Rangers have improved since Gerrard arrived and Celtic have regressed since Rodgers left over the last 18-24 months.

My argument is that gap should be non existent based on the events of this season so far as we are playing Football Manager 2021 (20/21).

Personally I think it’s a bit ridiculous that I have holidayed 3 seasons and each season Celtic have won the league by an average of 20 points lol.

 

Out of curiosity, what is the difference in average CA for their top 16 players?

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