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Defensive solidity: some questions


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Hi everybody,

first of all I want to apologize in advance for all the mistakes I'll make in writing, because I'm an Italian guy.

 

I started a new save with MLS-side Minnesota United FC, predicted 8th in the Western Conference, so definitely not a big team, but i love to play underdog.

So I was thinking about a defensive style of play, wich would allow me to collect as many points as possible and even some unexpected "giant killings". Surely the main purpose is to concede a very few goals in the season hoping to score at least one per match, obviously I don't pretend to dominate games and fill the trophy room.

My defenders are very good especially in Positioning, Marking and above average in Heading, and my midfielders have very good values in Aggression, Positioning, Anticipation and Decisions.

 

So i shaped my team with an asymmetrical 4-4-1-1 as follows.

I want to have two bank of fours waiting for the opponent in position rather than running around the pitch opening dangerous spaces with a bad pressing. Once i got the ball back I don't want to throw it immediately up to the advanced players without looking, I'm pretty sure that if we did that we will only gave the ball to the opponents again and again.

So I put a DLP to act as a "mandatory receiver", with on the left a WM on Support duty who was told to sit narrower to help him in a little time of ball possession phase before passing the ball at one of the three runners attacking the box: AM on Attack duty (who was told to stay wider on the left side), a PF on Attack duty in the middle and a W on Attack duty on the right.

To both WM and W was told to close down less in order to immediately rebuild the bank of four in the midfield. Only the PF and AM are told to close down more (PF obviously) in order to force opponent's CB to throw long balls without precision 

 

566995513_ScreenTattica.png.81df1c49904c9fbff38814e68be567f1.png

 

The friendly matches (lost 2-3 with Columbus Crew from a 2-1 lead, drew 1-1 with Monterrey from a 0-1 lead and won 2-1 with Real Salt Lake City, all conceded goals came from set pieces or outside the box and all after substituting the entire starting XI) and the first MLS game (won 0-1 VS New England Revolution) was encouraging, but I'm still here to ask for your advice to improve something, if possible, in both in and out of possesion phases of the game.

 

So I have a few questions for you

-First of all, are the roles, mentality and TI set properly?

-I concede a little too much shots from outside the box, and obviously sooner or later some of these end up in goal. If I drop the DLP in the DM strata I should have more defensive coverage, but do I lose something in the attacking phase? Or maybe I could have this player play in a non-playmaker role like DM with the same unchanghed PI passing instructions (More direct passes and Take more risks)?

-As told, on the left I chose the WM instead of an IW because I think WM is a less ball carrier role and don't want risk him being too out of position up and into the pitch in case of ball loss, am I right?

-If I try to go on Positive mentality with lower DL and much lower LOE instead of this Balanced mentality setting, in your opinion I'll gain more in attacking or lose more in defending? I'd like to know on wich side the scale plate hangs

 

Thanks in advance to anyone who will answer.

 

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16 minutes ago, Fox-7- said:

Hi everybody,

first of all I want to apologize in advance for all the mistakes I'll make in writing, because I'm an Italian guy.

 

I started a new save with MLS-side Minnesota United FC, predicted 8th in the Western Conference, so definitely not a big team, but i love to play underdog.

So I was thinking about a defensive style of play, wich would allow me to collect as many points as possible and even some unexpected "giant killings". Surely the main purpose is to concede a very few goals in the season hoping to score at least one per match, obviously I don't pretend to dominate games and fill the trophy room.

My defenders are very good especially in Positioning, Marking and above average in Heading, and my midfielders have very good values in Aggression, Positioning, Anticipation and Decisions.

 

So i shaped my team with an asymmetrical 4-4-1-1 as follows.

I want to have two bank of fours waiting for the opponent in position rather than running around the pitch opening dangerous spaces with a bad pressing. Once i got the ball back I don't want to throw it immediately up to the advanced players without looking, I'm pretty sure that if we did that we will only gave the ball to the opponents again and again.

So I put a DLP to act as a "mandatory receiver", with on the left a WM on Support duty who was told to sit narrower to help him in a little time of ball possession phase before passing the ball at one of the three runners attacking the box: AM on Attack duty (who was told to stay wider on the left side), a PF on Attack duty in the middle and a W on Attack duty on the right.

To both WM and W was told to close down less in order to immediately rebuild the bank of four in the midfield. Only the PF and AM are told to close down more (PF obviously) in order to force opponent's CB to throw long balls without precision 

 

566995513_ScreenTattica.png.81df1c49904c9fbff38814e68be567f1.png

 

The friendly matches (lost 2-3 with Columbus Crew from a 2-1 lead, drew 1-1 with Monterrey from a 0-1 lead and won 2-1 with Real Salt Lake City, all conceded goals came from set pieces or outside the box and all after substituting the entire starting XI) and the first MLS game (won 0-1 VS New England Revolution) was encouraging, but I'm still here to ask for your advice to improve something, if possible, in both in and out of possesion phases of the game.

 

So I have a few questions for you

-First of all, are the roles, mentality and TI set properly?

-I concede a little too much shots from outside the box, and obviously sooner or later some of these end up in goal. If I drop the DLP in the DM strata I should have more defensive coverage, but do I lose something in the attacking phase? Or maybe I could have this player play in a non-playmaker role like DM with the same unchanghed PI passing instructions (More direct passes and Take more risks)?

-As told, on the left I chose the WM instead of an IW because I think WM is a less ball carrier role and don't want risk him being too out of position up and into the pitch in case of ball loss, am I right?

-If I try to go on Positive mentality with lower DL and much lower LOE instead of this Balanced mentality setting, in your opinion I'll gain more in attacking or lose more in defending? I'd like to know on wich side the scale plate hangs

 

Thanks in advance to anyone who will 

First, I do think that the TI's(Team instructions) are okay. Regroup & more disciplined should be reconsidered = For regroup, you already have a double screen(DMde & dlpsu) that'll be intact even during offensive transitions. For more disciplined, with the number of attack duties(heavy risk takers), I do understand a bit. But still, it ideally reduces some level of risk that you can afford in the game.

Also, you've employed "distribute to fullbacks" instruction when none of your fullback moves into higher areas of the pitch during transitions. Essentially,  you have no ball carrying fullback role. That will put you under pressure during build up, as it forces one of your wingers to drop deep to assist rather than assuming his forward position during play. 

Winger on attack can be Winger on support or Fde can be FB on support, to close the distance between the two and keep the lines & defensive shape intact.

Lastly, the split press will help your team press in the right manner.

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  • Fox-7- changed the title to Defensive solidity: some questions
17 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

Hi everybody,

first of all I want to apologize in advance for all the mistakes I'll make in writing, because I'm an Italian guy.

 

I started a new save with MLS-side Minnesota United FC, predicted 8th in the Western Conference, so definitely not a big team, but i love to play underdog.

So I was thinking about a defensive style of play, wich would allow me to collect as many points as possible and even some unexpected "giant killings". Surely the main purpose is to concede a very few goals in the season hoping to score at least one per match, obviously I don't pretend to dominate games and fill the trophy room.

My defenders are very good especially in Positioning, Marking and above average in Heading, and my midfielders have very good values in Aggression, Positioning, Anticipation and Decisions.

 

So i shaped my team with an asymmetrical 4-4-1-1 as follows.

I want to have two bank of fours waiting for the opponent in position rather than running around the pitch opening dangerous spaces with a bad pressing. Once i got the ball back I don't want to throw it immediately up to the advanced players without looking, I'm pretty sure that if we did that we will only gave the ball to the opponents again and again.

So I put a DLP to act as a "mandatory receiver", with on the left a WM on Support duty who was told to sit narrower to help him in a little time of ball possession phase before passing the ball at one of the three runners attacking the box: AM on Attack duty (who was told to stay wider on the left side), a PF on Attack duty in the middle and a W on Attack duty on the right.

To both WM and W was told to close down less in order to immediately rebuild the bank of four in the midfield. Only the PF and AM are told to close down more (PF obviously) in order to force opponent's CB to throw long balls without precision 

 

566995513_ScreenTattica.png.81df1c49904c9fbff38814e68be567f1.png

 

The friendly matches (lost 2-3 with Columbus Crew from a 2-1 lead, drew 1-1 with Monterrey from a 0-1 lead and won 2-1 with Real Salt Lake City, all conceded goals came from set pieces or outside the box and all after substituting the entire starting XI) and the first MLS game (won 0-1 VS New England Revolution) was encouraging, but I'm still here to ask for your advice to improve something, if possible, in both in and out of possesion phases of the game.

 

So I have a few questions for you

-First of all, are the roles, mentality and TI set properly?

-I concede a little too much shots from outside the box, and obviously sooner or later some of these end up in goal. If I drop the DLP in the DM strata I should have more defensive coverage, but do I lose something in the attacking phase? Or maybe I could have this player play in a non-playmaker role like DM with the same unchanghed PI passing instructions (More direct passes and Take more risks)?

-As told, on the left I chose the WM instead of an IW because I think WM is a less ball carrier role and don't want risk him being too out of position up and into the pitch in case of ball loss, am I right?

-If I try to go on Positive mentality with lower DL and much lower LOE instead of this Balanced mentality setting, in your opinion I'll gain more in attacking or lose more in defending? I'd like to know on wich side the scale plate hangs

 

Thanks in advance to anyone who will answer.

 

Let's start with the players first. Due to the nature of single striker formations and your tactics, it is very important that your striker is well rounded enough to fulfill any roles he is asked to perform in the match. Your attacking players will also need to have good anticipation, off the ball and a bit of pace and acceleration to quickly transition to attack.

Next the concept of your tactics. In football there are two ways to not concede. You either control the space or you control the ball. You mentioned that you do not want to give the ball away easily hence not giving the opponents too much of the ball to attack. You can set up the tactic to just dominate possession and just be as defensively solid. A defensive tactic does not mean that you have to sit back and defend. However if you want to dominate the space then you should not be worried too much about giving the ball away. Do not try to set your tactic to do both at the same time very often you end up with none which I felt after looking at your tactics. Figure out what you want to do first.

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On 07/11/2020 at 09:34, denen123 said:

First, I do think that the TI's(Team instructions) are okay. Regroup & more disciplined should be reconsidered = For regroup, you already have a double screen(DMde & dlpsu) that'll be intact even during offensive transitions. For more disciplined, with the number of attack duties(heavy risk takers), I do understand a bit. But still, it ideally reduces some level of risk that you can afford in the game.

Also, you've employed "distribute to fullbacks" instruction when none of your fullback moves into higher areas of the pitch during transitions. Essentially,  you have no ball carrying fullback role. That will put you under pressure during build up, as it forces one of your wingers to drop deep to assist rather than assuming his forward position during play. 

Winger on attack can be Winger on support or Fde can be FB on support, to close the distance between the two and keep the lines & defensive shape intact.

Lastly, the split press will help your team press in the right manner.

For Regroup & Be more disciplined I'm satisfied with the players' behaviour, but surely I can turn off Be more disciplined for a few games and see what happens.

Your second statement is a good point and makes sense, I didn't pay attention at this specific situation. I selected this option because I don't want neither my CB to be under pressure (too risky, they're not good ball handlers) nor the ball to be kicked long on the flanks (GK has poor value in long passing). It seems I'll have to choose the lesser evil option for me

The W/FB pair was something I started thinking about too, in the end I think I'll go for the FB-S not to lose the W runs that are my main attacking pattern

 

 

20 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Let's start with the players first. Due to the nature of single striker formations and your tactics, it is very important that your striker is well rounded enough to fulfill any roles he is asked to perform in the match. Your attacking players will also need to have good anticipation, off the ball and a bit of pace and acceleration to quickly transition to attack.

Next the concept of your tactics. In football there are two ways to not concede. You either control the space or you control the ball. You mentioned that you do not want to give the ball away easily hence not giving the opponents too much of the ball to attack. You can set up the tactic to just dominate possession and just be as defensively solid. A defensive tactic does not mean that you have to sit back and defend. However if you want to dominate the space then you should not be worried too much about giving the ball away. Do not try to set your tactic to do both at the same time very often you end up with none which I felt after looking at your tactics. Figure out what you want to do first.

As said in the firs post, at the moment with this team my first aim is not to concede goals. I can deal with a 0-0 that gets closer and closer as time goes on towards the 90th minute if I see that I'm struggling to create scoring chances but I'm not conceding any half chances, but I'd go a bit crazy if I lose 0-1 conceding a goal from a counter-attack because I've gone too much offensive without having the skills to do something good. In the long term I think I'll gain more points this way with this team.

Given the skills of my players aforementioned, the way I'm trying not to concede goals is through space control. But I don't want to simply park the bus in front of my GK and kick away every single ball comes near the box to be immediately under pressure again, and again, and again...Once i got the ball we've to try to hurt the opponent with our weapons, I've a good passer (DLP), a good W and also a decent striker and we've to try to make the most of them.

I think it's not black or white, there are so many grey ways in the middle to achieve results. 

 

 

Thanky you both for the answers, there's also something about the three questions I've asked at the end of the post?

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6 hours ago, Big Yellow said:

Why the low line of engagement? That is likely to be the cause of the shots outside your box as you are invited the team into your own half.

Hi,

I choose lower LOE and standard DL in order to have optimal vertical compactness, and due to my defenders skills i think that going for standard LOE + higher DL would give too much space behind my CB.

Going with standard LOE + standard DL surely could be and option to try, but I think that with this disposition with 3 midfielders one ahead of the other in three different stratas I'll end in opening plenty of spaces between the lines

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- remove the distribution to fullbacks

- remove the regroup

- add the get stuck in

- change the winger's duty from attack into support

- change the RB's duty from defend into support

- change the LB's duty from support into attack

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I've just read through this thread, and a couple of things stand out to me. 

You have a goalkeeper who is poor in long distribution, so you'd prefer not to go long or direct from a goal kick. However, you also have central defenders who are poor on the ball, so distributing to them seems incorrect. That leaves 2 options to initiating play- the fullbacks or a midfielder dropping deep. As @denen123 rightly pointed out, your fullbacks are playing primarily defensively, so to make them your main play initiators would require a tactical rethink. As you're playing a low-ish block, you will be inviting teams to press you if you try and play out from the back, so it's important to get this right. It'd be preferable not to end up with fullbacks being caught in a pressing trap and having to pass it to a less technical CB or the goalkeeper to punt it long.

As I'm writing this @Experienced Defender has just recommended increasing the positivity of your full backs- that's certainly an option and probably recommended regardless due to your relatively negative tactic. But I think your playing out from the back and beating the press solution is clear:

On 07/11/2020 at 08:08, Fox-7- said:

So I put a DLP to act as a "mandatory receiver"

Here's the guy you want on the ball- he's got good passing and by the sounds of things is most comfortable under pressure. Your playing style will tend to be more direct playing on the counter but think: who is making the passes to the front 3 or 4? Not the keeper, not the defenders. So I think you should try and find a way to get the ball asap to the DLP, and use him as a distributor. 

Your player who is currently in the DM slot, how good is he on the ball? It might be worth trying switching that role to a technical role (DLP-s, DLP-d etc) and using the appropriate player, and then switching the right central midfielder to an enforcer role, or to a Box-to-box type. Then you can tell your goalkeeper to distribute to the playmaker, who should drop in between the centre-backs to receive. What type of player is this Opiyo? Is he a converted centreback, I see he is only half familiar with the DM-d role?

It could look something like this:

image.png.18ddea2314d5eaa51c46f49759239d40.png

I have added more urgent and get stuck in here- you would probably just need one of these instructions, so see how it goes. I'm also not entirely convinced that the asymmetry is necessary but again, on paper it should work. 

Issues with this version of the tactic as I see it- the left side is pretty static and lacks penetration. The FB-A will overlap naturally but there won't be any wide threat in the final third particularly. 

The ideal here I think would be tha the DLP-d picks up the ball, sprays a pass out to the W-s who crosses it in to the AM-A or PF-A. Or, the DLP-d passes it long to the PF-a, who knocks it down to the onrushing AM-a. I think both these game plans would benefit from a left footed DLP-d, but I don't know what your personnel are like.

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8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- remove the distribution to fullbacks

- remove the regroup

- add the get stuck in

- change the winger's duty from attack into support

- change the RB's duty from defend into support

- change the LB's duty from support into attack

Thank you for the answer, I'll reply following your list

1. I guess that I've to left all the options unselected to make my GK choose time after time where he'll play the ball either to reduce risks and not to give at the opponent a predictable pattern to easy press my defenders?

2&3. Without regroup will my W and MW track back immediately as same?

Get stuck in option because there's already no much space left to the opponent and if one of my players was beaten there's a teammate near to cover?

4,5&6. If i turn to W(S) have I to add "get further forward" PI to limit the mentality downgrading? And doing this should I worry about losing some runs towards the box as the W(S) is described to look only for dribbling on the flank and hit crosses?

Changing to RFB(S) was something i was already thinking about, as told to @denen123.

LFB(A) will give me decent coverage?

 

I know from my FM experiences that I don't have to make many changes all at one time, from which should I start? Roles or TIs?

 

 

 

@Flußkrebs thanks for the answer, I've read It and I've to elaborate some of your considerations. I'll reply you later ;)

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2 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

1. I guess that I've to left all the options unselected to make my GK choose time after time where he'll play the ball either to reduce risks and not to give at the opponent a predictable pattern to easy press my defenders?

Partly because of that, but primarily because distribution specifically to FBs does not make much sense considering the rest of the tactic. You can tell the keeper to distribute to both CBs and FBs if you want, rather than only FBs. 

 

2 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

2&3. Without regroup will my W and MW track back immediately as same?

You don't need the regroup instruction because the tactic is already defensive enough (especially if you follow my suggestion to switch the winger's duty to support). 

 

2 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

Get stuck in option because there's already no much space left to the opponent and if one of my players was beaten there's a teammate near to cover?

Get stuck in to make your players a bit more aggressive in your half, since you play with the lower LOE and have a good level of compactness. 

 

2 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

4,5&6. If i turn to W(S) have I to add "get further forward" PI to limit the mentality downgrading?

You can, but that may not be necessary. 

 

2 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

And doing this should I worry about losing some runs towards the box as the W(S) is described to look only for dribbling on the flank and hit crosses?

My suggestion about the support duty for the winger was in direct relation to the overall balance of your tactic including the defensive solidity you were asking about. If you don't want a role that runs/dribbles wide and delivers crosses, then simply do not use the winger as a role (regardless of duty). 

 

2 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

LFB(A) will give me decent coverage?

What kind of "coverage" are you referring to? 

Btw, (L)WB on support can also be an option, perhaps even better than (L)FB on attack (considering the WM in front of him). 

P.S: Also remove the Be more disciplined TI, because - like the regroup - such instruction is unnecessary in a tactic like yours. I forgot to mention it previously, but better late than never anyway.

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On 09/11/2020 at 13:10, Flußkrebs said:

I've just read through this thread, and a couple of things stand out to me. 

You have a goalkeeper who is poor in long distribution, so you'd prefer not to go long or direct from a goal kick. However, you also have central defenders who are poor on the ball, so distributing to them seems incorrect. That leaves 2 options to initiating play- the fullbacks or a midfielder dropping deep. As @denen123 rightly pointed out, your fullbacks are playing primarily defensively, so to make them your main play initiators would require a tactical rethink. As you're playing a low-ish block, you will be inviting teams to press you if you try and play out from the back, so it's important to get this right. It'd be preferable not to end up with fullbacks being caught in a pressing trap and having to pass it to a less technical CB or the goalkeeper to punt it long.

As I'm writing this @Experienced Defender has just recommended increasing the positivity of your full backs- that's certainly an option and probably recommended regardless due to your relatively negative tactic. But I think your playing out from the back and beating the press solution is clear:

Here's the guy you want on the ball- he's got good passing and by the sounds of things is most comfortable under pressure. Your playing style will tend to be more direct playing on the counter but think: who is making the passes to the front 3 or 4? Not the keeper, not the defenders. So I think you should try and find a way to get the ball asap to the DLP, and use him as a distributor. 

Your player who is currently in the DM slot, how good is he on the ball? It might be worth trying switching that role to a technical role (DLP-s, DLP-d etc) and using the appropriate player, and then switching the right central midfielder to an enforcer role, or to a Box-to-box type. Then you can tell your goalkeeper to distribute to the playmaker, who should drop in between the centre-backs to receive. What type of player is this Opiyo? Is he a converted centreback, I see he is only half familiar with the DM-d role?

It could look something like this:

image.png.18ddea2314d5eaa51c46f49759239d40.png

I have added more urgent and get stuck in here- you would probably just need one of these instructions, so see how it goes. I'm also not entirely convinced that the asymmetry is necessary but again, on paper it should work. 

Issues with this version of the tactic as I see it- the left side is pretty static and lacks penetration. The FB-A will overlap naturally but there won't be any wide threat in the final third particularly. 

The ideal here I think would be tha the DLP-d picks up the ball, sprays a pass out to the W-s who crosses it in to the AM-A or PF-A. Or, the DLP-d passes it long to the PF-a, who knocks it down to the onrushing AM-a. I think both these game plans would benefit from a left footed DLP-d, but I don't know what your personnel are like.

@Flußkrebs Here I am, I owe you an answer.

Your explanation was very interesting and your inal tactical solution makes sense, but in the end I've found that was not working as well as the original line-up for my team. The DLP dropped on the DM slot (tried with both -D and -S duty) didn't do a good job in defending (due to his skills) and also didn't link the game well with the upfront teammates, who were struggling to receive long balls that were easily intercepted by the opponents, maybe because he was so deep that was immediately under pressure when we got the ball and so he has to force passes.

In the CM(R) slot instead he is really incisive in making good passes everywere, and is also gas given me a further option for scoring with his ability to shoot from distance standing near the box.

In the end I've left the GK free to play the ball everywere by deciding from time ti time the best (hopefully the less risky) option.

 

@denen123 @zyfon5 @Experienced Defender

I've mixed up some of the advice received from you all (but also mantained some of my original features) and things are going very well...now we are in the middle of the season and after 19 games I'm leading the Western Conference (and the MLS' overall standing) with 13W-3D-3L, 38 goals scored and only 12 conceded (in 8 match, so I've 11 clean sheetsand a loro of 1-0 W, 2nd best attack and 1st defence by far), when I was predicted 8th in the Conference at the beginning of the season

I don't have the screenshot at the time,but basically i changed the right FB on Support duty and mantained left FB on support (tried but too much adventourous for me with Attack duty) and the right W on Attack duty, and changed the PF(A) for a TM(S) that could hold the ball and wait for support from WM/AM/DLP/W to develop scoring changed.

In the instructions I left unselected the GK distribution, as said before, added Get stuck in and left Regroup (Be more disciplined is still active because I've the feeling that my players do better in the attacking phase, but maybe It's just my suggestion).

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26 minutes ago, Fox-7- said:

@Flußkrebs Here I am, I owe you an answer.

Your explanation was very interesting and your inal tactical solution makes sense, but in the end I've found that was not working as well as the original line-up for my team. The DLP dropped on the DM slot (tried with both -D and -S duty) didn't do a good job in defending (due to his skills) and also didn't link the game well with the upfront teammates, who were struggling to receive long balls that were easily intercepted by the opponents, maybe because he was so deep that was immediately under pressure when we got the ball and so he has to force passes.

In the CM(R) slot instead he is really incisive in making good passes everywere, and is also gas given me a further option for scoring with his ability to shoot from distance standing near the box.

In the end I've left the GK free to play the ball everywere by deciding from time ti time the best (hopefully the less risky) option.

 

@denen123 @zyfon5 @Experienced Defender

I've mixed up some of the advice received from you all (but also mantained some of my original features) and things are going very well...now we are in the middle of the season and after 19 games I'm leading the Western Conference (and the MLS' overall standing) with 13W-3D-3L, 38 goals scored and only 12 conceded (in 8 match, so I've 11 clean sheetsand a loro of 1-0 W, 2nd best attack and 1st defence by far), when I was predicted 8th in the Conference at the beginning of the season

I don't have the screenshot at the time,but basically i changed the right FB on Support duty and mantained left FB on support (tried but too much adventourous for me with Attack duty) and the right W on Attack duty, and changed the PF(A) for a TM(S) that could hold the ball and wait for support from WM/AM/DLP/W to develop scoring changed.

In the instructions I left unselected the GK distribution, as said before, added Get stuck in and left Regroup (Be more disciplined is still active because I've the feeling that my players do better in the attacking phase, but maybe It's just my suggestion).

Glad to hear it's going well!

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