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Please bare with me, I am a bit of a rookie at Football Manager.

I am about to start a new Chelsea save and want to primarily play a "4-1-4-1 Wide" with a "4-2-3-1" alternative formation.

The style of play and objectives are to;

- Control the possession with quick passing.

- Utilise pace and skill of wingers  (Pulisic, Ziyech, Hudson-Odoi) to create/score.

- Utilise attacking qualities of Full Backs (Chillwell / James) to support attack.

- Balance the CM with current options available (Kovacic / Kante / Jorginho + Havertz / Mount)

Set out as below, I have struggled to balance the team which is resulting in average/poor performances from the Midfield and/or Wingers. I would really appreciate suggestions or advice based on the below. Any amendments to Tactics/Player Roles? Any Individual Instructions to apply? 

_________________________________

                4-1-4-1 Wide

                      PF (A)

 IW(S)                                  IW(S)

           AP (A)    -    BBM(S)

                    DLP(D)

FB(A) - BPD(D) - CD(D) - FB(A)

                     SK(S)

_________________________________

                     4-2-3-1

                      PF (A)

 IW(S)            AP(S)                 IW(S)

          DLP (S)    -    BBM(S)

FB(A) -  BPD(D) - CD(D)  -  FB(A)

                     SK(S)

__________________________________

Roles and Team Instructions:

Mentality: Attacking

In Possession:- Play Out of Defence, Shorter Passing, Lower Tempo, Work Ball into Box, 

In Transition:- Take Short Kicks, Distribute to Playmaker, Counter, Counter Press, 

Out of Possession:- Higher D Line, Higher LoE, Tight Marking, Extremely Urgent Pressing

 

Players available, and the positions they can play, are as follows

GK: Kepa / Mendy / Caballero 

RB: Azpilicueta / James

LB: Chillwell / Alonso / Emerson

CD: Silva / Tomori / Christensen / Rudiger / Zouma 

DM: Kante / Jorginho / Kovacic

CM: Kante / Jorginho / Kovacic / Havertz / Mount

RW: Ziyech / Hudson-Odoi

LW: Pulisic / Hudson-Odoi / Werner

CF: Werner / Abraham  / Giroud 

 

Please bare in mind the players I have at my disposal as I cannot put square pegs in round holes. 

Thanks guys and sorry for the long post. Any help would be awesome please.

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Frank Lampard hasn’t been able to find the proper balance either so don’t feel bad. My response is based on real life evaluation so some of these ideas may not translate into game.
 

are you dead set on 4-man back line? Without a dominant center back presence combined with desire to get wingbacks (rightly) forward and to (rightly) get Azpiliqueta and James on pitch together that would be my first jigsaw to solve. That system also allows chilwell and Alonso to be their best selves on left too. 
 

then as we go up top, you have a lot of juicy options. Werner is key imo as I think he’s the best talent. With RBL he mainly played with another striker. However, I think he’s good enough to be single striker and that allows you to better utilize the plethora of wing talent. Pencil him in up top. But I would probably utilize him as complete forward not pressing. 

 

pulisic is your best left wing option and he’s really solid going forward and facilitating more play making in middle of pitch. I agree with IW.

 

right wing you have 3 really good options. Havertz, Hakim, CHO. All do a little bit different things well. Haverts cutting in, mirroring what you can get from Pulisic. Hakim and CHO more traditional wingers. I’d leave this position as a flex spot reactive to where you might can exploit the opponent. For example if they have a back 3, you may prefer CHO to get forward down the right as Winger-A. Whereas if they have low block you may prefer Hakim ok Winger-S to build play and rely on his precision.

 

that leaves two midfield spots. On my opinion having a midfield playmaker with a back 3, high line and an IW on one side of front three is not required. I would be looking for one guy that will be looking to get forward and add a man in the final third. Conservatively, a BBM (Kanye or Kovacic can fill role I think) and more aggressively a CMA (mount, Kai). You can also leverage a MezA on either side to create overloads at time with Kai (left) and Mount (right).

the other midfield spot would be a tactically flexible position based on either where I am leaving myself exposed or where I can double down on trying to exploit opponent setup.

Finally, you do have some nice striker combinations you could deploy with 2 up front.

 

                              CFA

IWA                                              IFS, WS/A

      BBM/MezA/CMA         flex

WB                                                          WB

                            BACK 3

 

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To me, team instructions are more focused on individual match than general rule of thumb. In my proposed system, I would remove distribute to playmaker as I would view my top playmakers as Wing Backs and Wingers

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3 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

I am a bit of a rookie at Football Manager.

I am about to start a new Chelsea save and want to primarily play a "4-1-4-1 Wide" with a "4-2-3-1" alternative formation

If you are "a bit of a rookie", then better keep your tactical creation as simple as possible, at least until you gain more experience. In that regard, I would advise you to stick to the 4141dm wide formation as inherently more balanced and thus easier to set up compared to the tricky top-heavy 4231. 

So let's take a look at your 4141dm wide tactic: 

3 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

4-1-4-1 Wide

                      PF (A)

 IW(S)                                  IW(S)

           AP (A)    -    BBM(S)

                    DLP(D)

FB(A) - BPD(D) - CD(D) - FB(A)

                     SK(S)

 

3 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

Mentality: Attacking

In Possession:- Play Out of Defence, Shorter Passing, Lower Tempo, Work Ball into Box, 

In Transition:- Take Short Kicks, Distribute to Playmaker, Counter, Counter Press, 

Out of Possession:- Higher D Line, Higher LoE, Tight Marking, Extremely Urgent Pressing

 

3 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

The style of play and objectives are to;

- Control the possession with quick passing

If you want to "control possession with quick passing", then instead of attacking mentality + lower tempo, go with Positive + (slightly) higher tempo & shorter passing (along with Play out of defence and possibly work ball into box).

When it comes to out-of-possession instructions, tight marking makes virtually no sense both in terms of your intended style of play and the formation you are using. Therefore, remove it. 

I personally would also remove the extreme pressing, but that's less of a problem than tight marking. 

In transition, there is no need to tell the keeper how and whom to distribute the ball to, given that you already have the Play out of defence and short passing turned on. Let the keeper pick the best and safest possible option depending on a given situation.

The Counter team instruction should be used on a situational basis, rather than as a regular part of your tactic, simply because Chelsea is a top team and therefore most opponents will play very defensively against you, which means there is rarely going to be enough space for those potential counter-attacks to be effective. Instead, the counter instruction is more likely to lead to needless losses of possession than successful counter-attacks (most of the time). 

3 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

- Utilise attacking qualities of Full Backs (Chillwell / James) to support attack

If you want to utilize your fullbacks' "attacking qualities", it does not mean that you must play them both on attack duties. WB on support duty is a quite attack-minded role, for example (in some way even more so than FB on attack).

Plus, if you want attack-minded fullback roles, you need to make sure they have proper defensive cover in the midfield. With your CM partnership of an attacking AP and BBM, that defensive cover is almost nonexistent.

On top of that, AP on attack duty is a lot more suited for fast-transition styles (e.g. fast attacking or counter-attacking football) than your control possession.

So to cut the long story short, here is how I would set up your roles and duties taking both your desired style of play into account + your players + my observations above:

PFat

IFsu                              IWsu

BWMsu   MEZat

DLPde

FBat   CDde  BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

If you have any questions, feel free to ask :thup:

 

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Not necessarily super helpful for setting up a balanced FM tactic, and aware that FM players (assuming you're playing with a database so doubly so) don't necessarily match up directly with IRL players in terms of limitations, but this super video from Tifo sets out some nice ways that the Chelsea team could line up with all their new signings. It was made before Havertz, Chilwell, Thiago Silva, or Mendy were signed. All but Havertz should just be direct upgrades over existing players.

TL;DW:image.png.e1c88d34cf4e1fc2a89f644b8fdeb3c6.png

Just some extra food for thought! 4222/424 or 442 diamond aren't easy formations to set up, but the video discusses some of the tactical functions and abilities of the squad if you want to go with something similar. 

For what it's worth I'll be trying a flat 442 with inverted wingers in FM21 ;) 

                       Werner-Abraham

       Pulisic    Kovacic  Jorginho  Ziyech

       Chilwell   Zouma    Silva    James

And think of the subs bench...

 

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I am certainly not a pro, but taking how they play in real life, I could provide some advice from observing their individual style and quality. I think ziyech has a wonder of a left foot, and he can whip a great ball into the box so, I am thinking of using him as a playmaker on the wing in a 4-1-4-1.  He can get the ball very deep in the wide area and whip those crosses into the box. You could give him traits like to switch the ball to other flanks.
Werner has a mad pace, and he wants to run in behind even though he has lots of other great qualities in real life, but maybe his speed could be used as an IF on attack duty with traits gets into opposition area, likes to beat the offside trap. For havertz, he is known for his goalscoring ability. He could be used as a Mez on attack duty with added traits like gets forward whenever possible and moves into channels to link up with ziyech. The wingback on the right side; you probably want to use is James. Even though he can put his excellent crosses into space, I would put him on WB on attack duty. Since ziyech and havertz will combine in the right-hand side because their strong foot is left, James can keep his width to occupy defenders. Let me know what you guys think, and Chelsea is an interesting save.

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Here is a snapshot of an ideal line up you may use and what sort of roles each could play. The shape is 4-2-3-1, another potential formation very suitable for Chelsea. Here, the concept is similar,.but the emphasis on getting both the full-back very high up the pitch. I would want either one of the pivots to drop between the CB to bring the ball out of defense and tell the CB to stay wide. This will allow ziyech again to fall into the same space i talked about earlier. The whole idea here is overloading the center with creative players. Havertz can almost function as a second forward. You would want pulisic playing on the right-hand side to come narrow as well.

tactical-board.com (14).png

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20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you are "a bit of a rookie", then better keep your tactical creation as simple as possible, at least until you gain more experience. In that regard, I would advise you to stick to the 4141dm wide formation as inherently more balanced and thus easier to set up compared to the tricky top-heavy 4231. 

So let's take a look at your 4141dm wide tactic: 

 

 

If you want to "control possession with quick passing", then instead of attacking mentality + lower tempo, go with Positive + (slightly) higher tempo & shorter passing (along with Play out of defence and possibly work ball into box).

When it comes to out-of-possession instructions, tight marking makes virtually no sense both in terms of your intended style of play and the formation you are using. Therefore, remove it. 

I personally would also remove the extreme pressing, but that's less of a problem than tight marking. 

In transition, there is no need to tell the keeper how and whom to distribute the ball to, given that you already have the Play out of defence and short passing turned on. Let the keeper pick the best and safest possible option depending on a given situation.

The Counter team instruction should be used on a situational basis, rather than as a regular part of your tactic, simply because Chelsea is a top team and therefore most opponents will play very defensively against you, which means there is rarely going to be enough space for those potential counter-attacks to be effective. Instead, the counter instruction is more likely to lead to needless losses of possession than successful counter-attacks (most of the time). 

If you want to utilize your fullbacks' "attacking qualities", it does not mean that you must play them both on attack duties. WB on support duty is a quite attack-minded role, for example (in some way even more so than FB on attack).

Plus, if you want attack-minded fullback roles, you need to make sure they have proper defensive cover in the midfield. With your CM partnership of an attacking AP and BBM, that defensive cover is almost nonexistent.

On top of that, AP on attack duty is a lot more suited for fast-transition styles (e.g. fast attacking or counter-attacking football) than your control possession.

So to cut the long story short, here is how I would set up your roles and duties taking both your desired style of play into account + your players + my observations above:

PFat

IFsu                              IWsu

BWMsu   MEZat

DLPde

FBat   CDde  BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

If you have any questions, feel free to ask :thup:

 

Thanks for the feedback on this.

Looking at the formation above, I kind of understand where this is going. However, I am looking at that Midfield and I am thinking how to accommodate the players I have.

I bought Franck Kessie as a Kante Backup. The can both play BBM and BWM  (although Kante only shows fully 'green' as BBM) but the like to play on the right of a 2.

As more attacking options, I have Mount who likes to play on the left of a 2 and Havertz who likes to play on the right of a two.

Then, as Deeper playmakers, I have Kovacic who likes to play on the left of a 2 and Jorginho who has no preference in a two.

I guess this was why I was looking at that 4-2-3-1 as I could have had Kovacic/Jorginho as MC Left  (DLP-S) and Kante/Kessie as MC Right (BBM- S) with Havertz/Mount as that AMC position (although not sure on roles).

One of the biggest performance problems I have is that whoever is on the AML (Pulisic/Wener/CHO), they always under perform with no goals or assists and a poor rating...confusing.

This is my problem, it seems almost like there is TOO much variation that the positions end up unbalanced. It gets worse when 'Hot Prospect' players come back from loan.

 

 

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2 hours ago, raktim0699 said:

Here is a snapshot of an ideal line up you may use and what sort of roles each could play. The shape is 4-2-3-1, another potential formation very suitable for Chelsea. Here, the concept is similar,.but the emphasis on getting both the full-back very high up the pitch. I would want either one of the pivots to drop between the CB to bring the ball out of defense and tell the CB to stay wide. This will allow ziyech again to fall into the same space i talked about earlier. The whole idea here is overloading the center with creative players. Havertz can almost function as a second forward. You would want pulisic playing on the right-hand side to come narrow as well.

tactical-board.com (14).png

Looks a good solution at 4-2-3-1 although I dont think Mount is defensively sound enough to form the pivot.

This could be a role for Jorginho/Kovacic though as a DLP on Support. What roles would you assign to the above?

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Like I said, I am not a specialist at this but could give you a short idea or a different perspective or share my opinion. These are motivated by how they like to play in real life and what they are known for. I have seen ziyech gets the ball in those wide areas and whip delicious early crosses in the box. It is often dangerous and leads to a clear cut chance so, ziyech in that side could play as an AP (S) or attack; I am not sure. Since Advanced Playmaker likes to look for the ball and are not runner, others must not crowd or come into their areas to form adequate spacing and use their creativity well. That is why on the side of ziyech, I would like someone who is not so moving are very disciplined, so like Kante as an HB, maybe use James as a CWB on the attack to act as a winger. Use Werner as a PF or AF on attack duty. 

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4 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

However, I am looking at that Midfield and I am thinking how to accommodate the players I have.

I bought Franck Kessie as a Kante Backup

DLPde - Jorginho / Kovacic (possibly Kessie as well, although I can't remember all his attributes)

BWMsu - Kante, Jorginho, Kovacic, Kessie

MEZat - Mount / Havertz / Kovacic 

So you have plenty of room to rotate these guys. 

4 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

The can both play BBM and BWM  (although Kante only shows fully 'green' as BBM) but the like to play on the right of a 2

Don't worry about the green circle. Look at player attributes instead, because attributes matter the most when it comes to role suitability. 

And don't care too much about their preferred side. It has a minimum effect (if any). 

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

DLPde - Jorginho / Kovacic (possibly Kessie as well, although I can't remember all his attributes)

BWMsu - Kante, Jorginho, Kovacic, Kessie

MEZat - Mount / Havertz / Kovacic 

So you have plenty of room to rotate these guys. 

Don't worry about the green circle. Look at player attributes instead, because attributes matter the most when it comes to role suitability. 

And don't care too much about their preferred side. It has a minimum effect (if any). 

I am guessing this setup needs a support role behind that inside forward so Kante/Kessie definitely on the left instead of the Mezzala on the left.

Would you have the DLP(d) in the DM position or have Kante there as a DM(d) and have a DLP(s) next to the Mezzalla? 

If the latter, would it be better then to have the AML Inside forward on attack?

Finally, any reason you swapped the centre back pairing?

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26 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:

I am guessing this setup needs a support role behind that inside forward so Kante/Kessie definitely on the left instead of the Mezzala on the left

If you want the mezzala on the left, here is what you need to do:

PFat

IFsu                                   IWsu

MEZat   BWMsu

DLPde

WBsu   CDde  BPDde  FBat

SKsu

Just swap the sides of the CM and FB roles and that's it. 

29 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:

Would you have the DLP(d) in the DM position or have Kante there as a DM(d) and have a DLP(s) next to the Mezzalla?

Both options can work. You can have a DM on defend duty and DLP on support instead of the BWM next to the mezzala. Like this:

DLPsu    MEZat

DMde 

32 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:

If the latter, would it be better then to have the AML Inside forward on attack?

Not necessarily. Can be done, but would require a couple of tweaks elsewhere (including the striker's role). 

P.S: Don't be obsessed with having many attack duties, because that's not what makes your tactic more dangerous and potent in attack. Variety of attacking patterns coupled with creation of space through role interaction is far more important and effective. 

38 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:

Finally, any reason you swapped the centre back pairing?

I assumed all your potential BPDs are right-footed, that's the main reason in this particular case. 

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 .. 

...........  WernerAF(A)

.Pulisic IW(S)  HavertzSS(A).  Ziyech AP(S)

.. .. ........ VOL(S) HB(D) 

Ben CWB(A) BPD(D) BPD(D) JamesCWB(A)

I am not totally sure how if thats going to work but could try or get recommendations about these roles from somebody?

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22 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you want the mezzala on the left, here is what you need to do:

PFat

IFsu                                   IWsu

MEZat   BWMsu

DLPde

WBsu   CDde  BPDde  FBat

SKsu

Just swap the sides of the CM and FB roles and that's it. 

Both options can work. You can have a DM on defend duty and DLP on support instead of the BWM next to the mezzala. Like this:

DLPsu    MEZat

DMde 

Not necessarily. Can be done, but would require a couple of tweaks elsewhere (including the striker's role). 

P.S: Don't be obsessed with having many attack duties, because that's not what makes your tactic more dangerous and potent in attack. Variety of attacking patterns coupled with creation of space through role interaction is far more important and effective. 

I assumed all your potential BPDs are right-footed, that's the main reason in this particular case. 

So I tried this recommendation...it is aweful!

I ran through pre-season to learn tactic and gel as a team, plus 2 games into the season against Burnley (0-0 draw at home) and Southampton (1-1 draw away).

Left winger (Pulisic / Werner / CHO) all have very low ratings, 6.4 or 6.5 mainly.

Havertz does NOTHING. His ratings are around 6.5 also as the suggested Mezzala (tried on both right and left)

The strikers used so far (Werner / Abraham) are terrible, only 3 goals between then in all games and 4 games in pre-season were against low rep opposition).

erm........

 

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30 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:

So I tried this recommendation...it is aweful!

I ran through pre-season to learn tactic and gel as a team, plus 2 games into the season against Burnley (0-0 draw at home) and Southampton (1-1 draw away).

Left winger (Pulisic / Werner / CHO) all have very low ratings, 6.4 or 6.5 mainly.

Havertz does NOTHING. His ratings are around 6.5 also as the suggested Mezzala (tried on both right and left)

The strikers used so far (Werner / Abraham) are terrible, only 3 goals between then in all games and 4 games in pre-season were against low rep opposition).

erm........

 

Can you post the whole tactic (screenshot)? I want to see your team instructions and then I can tell you what tweaks you can try to improve it. 

Keep also in mind that we are not talking about a plug'n'play tactic here, but rather discussing how a balanced and sensible tactic for a team like Chelsea could look like. Therefore, it's work in progress, not a ready-made tactic. 

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On 07/11/2020 at 01:23, s0ni42 said:

On the subject of preference of side. ED, would you suggest Mez match footed ness? I always like idea of left footed player being on left in that role. @Experienced Defender

Yes, when it comes to a role such as mezzala, I also prefer to play a player on the side of his stronger foot (though not at all costs, because I have to take into account the rest of my tactic) :thup:

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On 04/11/2020 at 14:21, SteveDavis85 said:

The style of play and objectives are to;

- Control the possession with quick passing.

- Utilise pace and skill of wingers  (Pulisic, Ziyech, Hudson-Odoi) to create/score.

- Utilise attacking qualities of Full Backs (Chillwell / James) to support attack.

- Balance the CM with current options available (Kovacic / Kante / Jorginho + Havertz / Mount)

Personally I think your trying to mix contrasting styles.   Expecting to "control possession" but then have a very wing heavy attack which I think requires a quick/direct style so you don't end up just pumping crosses into a packed, organized defence, especially if Werner is the ST.  The slower your attacks, the less "space" there is for pacy players, it then becomes more about ability to operate in tight areas with great touch and flair.

In a 4141 DM Wide what the ST does is very important.  If he's up top on an attack duty he won't help link and wants early through balls so typically won't suit a possession style. A poacher (rarely dribble) or DLF-At (holds up ball) should isolate themselves less, especially if the wide forwards are on support duty.  If the ST isn't linking then you have to look for deeper players to get forward to offer a forward passing option or to carry the ball forward themselves.  I find this can be hard to do with a CM as even a MEZ-At tends to not get forward when transitioning out of defence, rather waiting until transitioning into the attacking phase (traits can help with this a bit).  If a wide forward gets it this can often lead to them running into dead ends since nearly all are told to dribble often and the CM's haven't advanced enough to do anything to draw out opponent Defensive Midfielders.

I don't think that Chelsea team suit a "possession" style.  Ziyech has poor decision making plus likes to shoot from distance which likely will prematurely end any pressure you build up.  Werner also has poor decisions so could isolate himself and lose possession quickly.  For these reasons i'd limit how many instructions i'd add that slow down attacks and try to get players forward earlier with fewer passes till you get a shot, but without playing hoofball.

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On 06/11/2020 at 22:11, Experienced Defender said:

Can you post the whole tactic (screenshot)? I want to see your team instructions and then I can tell you what tweaks you can try to improve it. 

Keep also in mind that we are not talking about a plug'n'play tactic here, but rather discussing how a balanced and sensible tactic for a team like Chelsea could look like. Therefore, it's work in progress, not a ready-made tactic. 

I think I am nearly there with the Formation in terms of playing style. It may  not be what was suggested, but seems to be working and getting good results 4 games in although no elite teams played yet.

Below is the Team instructions, Formation (with Roles) and players I have used in those positions so far.

On the wide men....I did ideally want Pulisic as an IF(A) ideally (so Werner can back him up) but neither seem to play that IF (A) role very well,.. unless its to do with the striker? IW (A) is suiting him so far, hence the line-up below. However, I wonder if I am playing the correct full back roles  to partner with the wingers. Thoughts? 

I am also in 2 minds about the RCM. Box to Box works well (ish) so far but I did wonder about BWM.  The only thing is I wanted to introduce Conor Gallagher into that BBM role when Kante is phased out and dont see him as suitable for BWM. Trying to think long term on this one with youth in mind.

 

                       PF (A)

 IW(A)                                   IW(S)

          AP (A)    -      BBM(S)

                      DLP(D)

WB(S) -  BPD(D) - CD(D)  -  FB(A)

                     SK(S)

__________________________________

Roles and Team Instructions:

Mentality: Positive

In Possession:- Shorter Passing, Play Out of Defence, Whipped Crosses, Run at Defence, Be More Expressive, Higher Tempo, Fairly Narrow

In Transition:- Distribute Quickly, Distribute to Playmaker, Counter, Counter Press, 

Out of Possession:- Higher D Line, Higher LoE, , Extremely Urgent Pressing, Prevent GK Distribution

 

GK: Kepa / Mendy

RB:  James / Azpi

LB: Chillwell / Alonso

LCB: Silva / Christensen

RCB: Zouma / Rudiger

DM: Kovacic / Jorginho

RCM: Kante / Kessie

LCM: Havertz / Mount

RW: Ziyech / Hudson-Odoi

LW: Pulisic / Hudson-Odoi 

CF: Abraham  / Werner

 

 

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12 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

I think I am nearly there with the Formation in terms of playing style. It may  not be what was suggested, but seems to be working and getting good results 4 games in although no elite teams played yet

If it works, then great. 

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