Preconceived tactic/create tactic on the fly

[Ye oldie gaffer]

I just wanted to start with a short history so hopefully you can understand where I’m coming from. I’ve played this game for over ten years but have been away, the reason I stopped playing was I couldn’t get my tactics to work so over fm18,19 I chased tactics from other people and when things didn’t work I fell out with the game so didn’t buy last years game. I understand now I didn’t evolve with the game when the developers improved it I didn’t, so I’ve been doing my homework and studying all of the game from some fantastic threads on this forum, to sharpen myself up and get used to the mechanics of the game I’ve been practicing with the fm20 demo after Pre purchasing fm21.

 

As I said I’ve already learnt a lot from other threads and I’m not looking for someone to build a tactic for me but instead reading first my thoughts and hopefully extending to some useful tips and the final part is just a few questions to understand parts of the game I’m not used too.

 

starting a new game would you a) once you picked a team set up a tactic you would prefer to play and perfect it or b) play a completely different tactic because it best suits your squad? For example my preferred formation has always been the 4141dm wide . Would you put this in and adjust roles to suit the current players at your disposal, possibly sacrificing your preferred style or get the players to start using your way and use training to improve them better to play your desired way? 
 

some advice I’m looking for with the 4141dm wide is some advice for attacking. Again reading other threads I now understand pairs and combinations but I can never visualise the attacking side of my team, for example what I first think about is I like to think first of as we go forward as a team/unit if we lose the ball have I got initially enough back to cover the start of a counter attack, and this is where I like to think about having my dm as a dm/half back staying just in front of my cb’s. depending on the side we are attacking I would try to get the opposite fall back to just be a bit more cautious in his advance movement again to be ready to be better defensively positioned while others then join in after losing the ball. 
going forward I would like to play a possession game and would rather than play an expressive style be more methodical patiently working an opening allowing my players to move around to create space to exploit or others too. Having the right roles and TI’s I’m still learning and I’ve never used PI because I simply don’t understand how it works when put together with the base set of instructions used within the tactic as a whole. Is this something I need to understand more and use more?

I would be really appreciative if I could be pointed in a direction as to where I can learn team mentality, I understand when changing this it changes mentality of roles like support and attacking etc but I’m more after how do I learn what mentality I should be looking to use depending on the team etc and to fit in with my desired way of playing. It really baffles me this particular bit.

Finally just a bit of help needed to understand a new aspect I’m not sure about. So in the demo the board desired I play pressing football, but after analysing the squad I noticed it was the weakest in the league for teamwork and work rate so I didn’t feel the squad could play that way . Is that a misconception on my behalf of looking at it or was I not looking at the squad report and league comparison right ? 

[GianniM]

1 hour ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

starting a new game would you a) once you picked a team set up a tactic you would prefer to play and perfect it or b) play a completely different tactic because it best suits your squad?

You'll have to find your own balance in that I think. Just think of when in reality a new coach starts at a team and after a few weeks the press says 'you can start to see the hand of the coach on the pitch'. It means he's implementing his ideas into the team. But of course you are limited by the players you have. You may want to play a possession game, but if you're expected bottom of the league your players will just not be good enough to pull this off. Then you have to be more direct and hit the opposition on the counter. Over time though you have to keep in mind the style of play that you aim for and sign the right players to fit into that tactic. This way you can gradually get closer to your preferred style. 

Besides, a formation is not a tactic. You can use a 4-1-4-1 for both counter attacking or possession play. It's the roles & duties and instructions that define the tactic. 

1 hour ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

I’ve never used PI because I simply don’t understand how it works when put together with the base set of instructions used within the tactic as a whole. Is this something I need to understand more and use more?

The most important are player roles and duties, and team mentality. Focus on those first. Then you can add TI's one step at a time based on what you see when watching matches. 
My current 'main' tactic actually only has distribute to centre or fullbacks as TIs and I'm quite successful with it. Sometimes I use 'low crosses' when opposition centre backs are big blokes, a lower line of engagement when I feel I'm getting run down in midfield, or pass into space when the opposition are pressing high and leaving space behind their defence. 

1 hour ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

I would be really appreciative if I could be pointed in a direction as to where I can learn team mentality, I understand when changing this it changes mentality of roles like support and attacking

Basically mentality is the willingness to take risks. Attacking for example (when no other TIs selected) means high risk passing (more direct, faster), players being more advanced on the pitch, leaving their positions etc. Again, here you can start with balanced and increase or decrease based on what you see. 

1 hour ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

Is that a misconception on my behalf

No, you're right in thinking that. Try to talk the board out of that idea. 

[sporadicsmiles]

1 hour ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

Starting a new game would you a) once you picked a team set up a tactic you would prefer to play and perfect it or b) play a completely different tactic because it best suits your squad?

For me it is a healthy mixture of the two. I also like to play with the 4141 DM wide (as FM calls it, I think of it as a 433/451). Here you should note, as mentioned above, that a formation is not a tactic. It is just the first building block of a tactic. Depending how you set it up, it can be many different tactics. 

How you set up can go two ways. Depends what you are like as a manager. You can just set up directly to play the way you want to play, and if you do not have the players to do it you can eventually try to build a squad full of players who can. Or you can try to set up your tactic to exploit the strengths in the squad, and evolve towards how you want to play over time. Or even just constantly adapt a la Ferguson. The absolute most important thing, whatever you do, is that you have an idea of what you want to achieve with your tactic. Know what you want to do, what you want each player to do, how you want these players to interact and how you want to score goals. These are the 4 key questions. They may not be easy to answer, or hard to translate to the field, but at least you know where you are going.

1 hour ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

Again reading other threads I now understand pairs and combinations but I can never visualise the attacking side of my team, for example what I first think about is I like to think first of as we go forward as a team/unit if we lose the ball have I got initially enough back to cover the start of a counter attack,

That is a valid thing to think of first though. I am much the same. I make sure I am defensive sound before I worry about being attackingly clinical. You lose 0% of the games where you do not concede a goal after all. 

In terms of understanding attacking play, you have to think what will happen in certain situations. Take, for example, a F9. He drops deep and gets the ball. What can happen? Well, lets list some of them.

1. A defender moves with him to cover him.

2. A midfielder picks him up.

3. Nobody picks him up.

Number 1 is very nice, because you have disrupted team shape and created space. So can you get someone in that space? Sure, maybe an IF, a SS, a CM(A). Use your imagination. And voila, you have thought about attacking movement and how to score and create chances. It is as simple as that.

Number 2 is annoying, because this is how it should be defended. It disrupts defensive shape less, and means I cannot stick a guy into a hole in the defence. What does it tell me? I am not going to create chances this way as easily if I face teams with 1 or 2 DMCs. So I cannot rely on this entirely. Now, if I can move those DMCs out of the way before my F9 drops deep to get the ball... And then you go on another way to create things. 

Once you get the hang of thinking like this, it becomes easy. As a little exercise, think about what could happen if you overload (get more attackers than there are defenders) on the right flank. 

1 hour ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

I would be really appreciative if I could be pointed in a direction as to where I can learn team mentality, I understand when changing this it changes mentality of roles like support and attacking etc but I’m more after how do I learn what mentality I should be looking to use depending on the team etc and to fit in with my desired way of playing. It really baffles me this particular bit.

Honestly the easiest way to learn about this is to change it and watch how it affects your team. Or check how the AI plays different when it switches to Attacking late in games when it is hunting a goal. I honestly do not know every little change it makes to all the roles and duties and instructions. Watching enough can get you a feel for that. Sorry that this is not the most helpful reply. 

2 hours ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

Finally just a bit of help needed to understand a new aspect I’m not sure about. So in the demo the board desired I play pressing football, but after analysing the squad I noticed it was the weakest in the league for teamwork and work rate so I didn’t feel the squad could play that way . Is that a misconception on my behalf of looking at it or was I not looking at the squad report and league comparison right ? 

No this is good. You are looking at what your team can and cannot do, and working around that. Of course it does not mean you cannot use a press, but they will likely not be very effective. But this is generally a good idea to check. No point trying to play possession football with a team of 10 rated passers with no vision! In my current game I have adapted how I play to accomodate a striker with 20 heading and 18 jumping. It would be crazy to not try to exploit this. Always check what your players and teams can do.

[Deego619]

I always like to keep it simple

Squad building is much more important than tactics alone imho.

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

starting a new game would you a) once you picked a team set up a tactic you would prefer to play and perfect it or b) play a completely different tactic because it best suits your squad? For example my preferred formation has always been the 4141dm wide . Would you put this in and adjust roles to suit the current players at your disposal, possibly sacrificing your preferred style or get the players to start using your way and use training to improve them better to play your desired way?

Neither approach is either right or wrong. I personally prefer to create a tactic that optimally suits the players I have at my disposal, but that does not mean that you cannot successfully fit players into your preferred tactic (or at least formation, which is not the same thing as tactic). The latter approach is (arguably) more risky because your players may not be suited or good enough to play the way you want them to, but definitely can work. 

 

7 hours ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

some advice I’m looking for with the 4141dm wide is some advice for attacking. Again reading other threads I now understand pairs and combinations but I can never visualise the attacking side of my team, for example what I first think about is I like to think first of as we go forward as a team/unit if we lose the ball have I got initially enough back to cover the start of a counter attack, and this is where I like to think about having my dm as a dm/half back staying just in front of my cb’s. depending on the side we are attacking I would try to get the opposite fall back to just be a bit more cautious in his advance movement again to be ready to be better defensively positioned while others then join in after losing the ball. 
going forward I would like to play a possession game and would rather than play an expressive style be more methodical patiently working an opening allowing my players to move around to create space to exploit or others too. Having the right roles and TI’s I’m still learning and I’ve never used PI because I simply don’t understand how it works when put together with the base set of instructions used within the tactic as a whole. Is this something I need to understand more and use more?

My personal primary principles when setting up roles and duties - taking into account the style of play I am looking to implement - are:

- how are roles (along with their respective duties) supposed to create space for one another when we attack

- how can then they optimally utilize that space

- which roles in which positions are supposed not just to provide defensive cover for more attacking teammates but also help recycle possession from deeper areas when needed

I am not going to claim that this is the only approach that can work. It's just the one I feel most comfortable with and has always worked nicely for me. 

Team instructions - like roles and duties - need to be in agreement with your intended style of play. 

USEFUL TIPS:

- Always keep in mind that roles and duties interact with one another and hence should never be viewed in isolation

- Keep your team instructions as simple as possible, i.e. use only a couple of those that basically define your style of play, at least initially (because if you immediately apply too many TIs, you won't be able to identify the source of a problem if things go wrong)

- make sure there is no tactical overkill or contradiction in your tactic (both in terms of roles/duties and instructions) 

8 hours ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

I would be really appreciative if I could be pointed in a direction as to where I can learn team mentality, I understand when changing this it changes mentality of roles like support and attacking etc but I’m more after how do I learn what mentality I should be looking to use depending on the team etc and to fit in with my desired way of playing. It really baffles me this particular bit

The mentality is probably the element of tactical creation where most people make mistakes and have misconceptions about it (partly due to a bit misleading in-game descriptions). 

There are 2 key points when it comes to team mentalities:

- the mentality is a very important factor because it automatically affects all other team instructions (along with individual player mentalities),

BUT

- it does not define your style of play (even though it does indirectly affect it)

Therefore, a lower team mentality does not automatically make you more solid defensively nor does it mean that your style of play is necessarily a defensive one. By the same token, a higher team mentality does not automatically make you more dangerous in attack nor does it mean that your style of play is necessarily attack-minded. 

In that respect, things such as the combination of defensive line and line of engagement and the setup of roles and duties are more important than the team mentality when it comes to the style of football you want to play. 

8 hours ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

Finally just a bit of help needed to understand a new aspect I’m not sure about. So in the demo the board desired I play pressing football, but after analysing the squad I noticed it was the weakest in the league for teamwork and work rate so I didn’t feel the squad could play that way . Is that a misconception on my behalf

It is not a misconception on your part, because work rate and teamwork (along with a few more attributes) are definitely important if you want to play pressing football properly. 

 

8 hours ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

or was I not looking at the squad report and league comparison right ? 

I don't know how exactly you analyzed this info, so cannot tell you anything for sure. But given that both the squad report and league comparison are based on average attribute ratings of the squad, they can be potentially misleading to some degree.

For example, your squad (first team) may involve a couple of players that have much worse ratings (stats) for certain attributes than most of your team and thus drag down your team's average rating for these attributes, even though that rating may not actually be that bad (apart from these specific "bad" players). 

[Ye oldie gaffer]

@GianniM @sporadicsmiles @Experienced Defender Firstly can I start by thanking you all for taking the time to respond in such great detail and depth. Reading through each reply I can see a trap I have fallen into in thinking a formation is a set tactic and style, but after reading each bit (i must admit several times just to digest what was being said and so I could better understand the knowledge you were passing on) I feel more equipped in understanding that to build a tactic, a formation is just part of a jigsaw, and should be given the same thought process as evaluating your squad and roles to blend into, that along with instructions over time to use to define the style of play i envisage that at first the squad can play in based on their quality's and limitations. I feel more comfortable now that though not always at first, the squad may not be able to play a style I want or would like this can be achieved over a longer period and looking at the bigger picture planning ahead to accomplish this. 

As with team mentality, again reading what has been said I am much more confident in this area. first i will just watch a few games on each setting without instructions to better understand each setting, but i don't feel as daunted by this and now realize again its almost like another instruction in the bigger picture. Doing this along with what has been said I feel better understanding now that defensive doesn't necessarily mean defensive football, likewise attacking doesn't just mean attack there is more to it and I look forward to testing these out.

With finding the right blend and roles that compliment a style, and how the players transition their movement and the ball, as well as how i can see and imagine how the team could play and to put the ball in the net (after reading your own knowledge), one thing I have taken away is the need to understand each individual role and how they play and interact with each other to find how I would use that in balancing a winning formula, as personally I would never have thought about using a false nine because again my own thought process was he would just drop deep and get in the way. It never entered my head to think about utilizing him to create space or work in tandem to move the opposition around. This is where I can see that I never evolved with the game and just chased tactics to plug and play. I think just today FM retweeted a post from Miles and one thing they have added to fm21 is when you select a role a short animation plays to show how a player would sort of act in the chosen role which I think I personally would benefit from.

And finally, thank you for pointing out that I am showing signs of using ever gaining knowledge in beginning to understand aspects of the game and interpret this information in a bigger picture on identifying things the squad couldn't do ref pressing. the fact you all took your time to answer this bit has been encouraging as honestly I hesitated in putting this up, thinking i would be told to give up your wrong don't bother you don't know what your saying, so again thank you all so much and if in the future i'm stuck I feel more comfortable in asking for help. 

again thank you all so much i'm very appreciative.

 

@Deego619 just wanted to thank you as even the littlest thing can make sense so much. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Ye oldie gaffer

[sporadicsmiles]

No problem! Always happy to share whatever insights I have about the game. I remember when I was in a similar position to you, trying to work out how things are working. 

[GianniM]

10 hours ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

if in the future i'm stuck I feel more comfortable in asking for help.

That's what this forum is meant for! I post my questions here too so in return I share the knowledge I have (which in turn is mostly sourced from here)

If you want to learn more, here are some interesting guides: 

 

 

[Ye oldie gaffer]

Thank you @GianniM they were some fantastic threads written by you guys and others, I learnt alot .

One thing I've realized before any attempt to make any tactic I had to focus on what style or brand of football I wanted to play by me team. This was a very thoughtful process as my knowledge of mangers is as broad as it is wide, From Pep to Jose, Big Sam to Jorge Jesus,Sean Dyche to Cryuff's total football, each style of play intrigues and delights me at the work they put in to make a success of how they have set there team to play. Eventually I narrowed down my style to two, Jose from his early days at Porto and Chelsea or Luis Van Gaal and his time at Manchester United. It was the latter i choose my style and very much looked at possession football building patiently through the lines with the intent of holding on to the ball if an obvious chance was unable to be created, using the wide men as penetrating the defensive third of the opposition in creating space to bring the midfield up into a position to create openings turning into chances. after doing a bit more home work I quickly realized that to try and recreate another managers work I needed more knowledge of the game and what I'm trying to recreate , so instead I've settled on a possession football approach keeping my 4-1-4-1dm wide preferred formation . and in what I've learnt through advice and what I've read I think I'm starting to get a base I can both learn from and start to develope once I'm able to improve the playing squad to fit the roles I think are a good base to start from.

(At this point I had intended screenshots to be here then a short explanation behind the thought process but I haven't quite figured out how to do this as there are appearing below my text to I will explain each one up here)

So the first one was designed to play out the back and build my way up the pitch, As most of my forward men are right footed I envisaged over loading the right flank leaving space on the left for my IF to attack into. after watching two games a couple of things stood out like my FB on the left side wasn't getting far enough forward to support the flank so I added PI get further forward and stay wide, Also my CMa wasn't getting as forward as I hoped and getting beyond my striker so I told him to move into channels. another couple of games passed and it wasn't quite right, so I moved onto tweaking It and as the second image shows I changed a role on my LB and removed WBIB (This is something I look to put on during the game depending on what I'm seeing as I wanted to start with a bit of freedom in creating chances and watching what is happening and acting accordingly) and set the tempo higher to standard setting,  (i know I've changed mentality to but I will come on to that.) This system seems to have more balance to it, but it doesn't quite create many clear cut chances yet. is that something that will come with more Tactical familiarity or I just need to do more tweaking ?

I understand mentality much better and I certainly don't fear it anymore, and I adapt it before a game and/or during depending on the opposition, and what is unfolding on the pitch. This is why I also start with standard lines of defense and LOE as I watch very carefully the first ten minutes before setting this during the game as I know coupled with my mentality setting at any given time the base LOE and DL also shift depending on my teams mentality. That and the idea (after reading @Experienced Defenderfantastic work on defensive principles) that I wanted to have my team compact so if i move one line up or down the other goes with it in the same direction.

Its not perfect but its a start I think I'm going in the right direction in what I'm learning and just wanted to share with you guys that I've read, understood and implemented what is the direction I want to go

[GianniM]

One thing that stands out to me is that you ask your players to position themselves extremely wide but you want them to pass short. So they are positioned very far away from each other, yet they have to find a short passing option. Seems contradictory to me. 

If you want to overload your right side it would also make more sense to assign your right back to the more adventurous Wingback role, and move your playmaker to the CMR position. 

[Ye oldie gaffer]

3 hours ago, GianniM said:

One thing that stands out to me is that you ask your players to position themselves extremely wide but you want them to pass short. So they are positioned very far away from each other, yet they have to find a short passing option. Seems contradictory to me. 

If you want to overload your right side it would also make more sense to assign your right back to the more adventurous Wingback role, and move your playmaker to the CMR position. 

I can see that now, the thought behind it was to stretch play but as you say it contradicts its self. to keep the idea of possession could I fix this a) by keeping the width and setting passing to a more standard passing and moving mentality to cautious, or b) keeping the passing short and narrowing the width to normal or narrow ? and with the latter if in game its to congested in the middle I could up the passing and width I'm thinking if needed.

re the overload I will try that just two quick questions, would the RB by moving him to a wingback be better kept as an attacking setting or support ? by  switching my MCR & MCL roles around the CMa I've asked him to move into channels would that mean that both him and the IF be attacking the same space and that's something else I would need to watch and consider?

Many thanks for your advice much appreciated.

[GianniM]

16 minutes ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

I can see that now, the thought behind it was to stretch play but as you say it contradicts its self. to keep the idea of possession could I fix this a) by keeping the width and setting passing to a more standard passing and moving mentality to cautious, or b) keeping the passing short and narrowing the width to normal or narrow ? and with the latter if in game its to congested in the middle I could up the passing and width I'm thinking if needed.

Standard width on positive mentality already is fairly wide. So going extremely wide will probably be overkill anyway. Start out with standard and change based on what you see during the match. I would recommend not using any 'extreme' options, unless maybe in an extreme situation, like desperately chasing a last minute equalizer. 

23 minutes ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

would the RB by moving him to a wingback be better kept as an attacking setting or support ?

Can't really tell as I haven't used the winger AMR / wingback LB combination.

Some other thought: I know I like a IFs or APs with a WBa behind him. The IF or AP holding up the ball, WB overlapping him so the IF/AP has passing options both centrally and on the flank. You can do this on your left flank and it may be a more logical approach if your players fit this idea. Then you can leave your midfield as it is. 

                       DLFs

    IFs/APs                       Wa

                DLPs    CMa

                         Ad

WBa       CBd      BPD         FBs

 

So this changes the overload idea to the left. 

 

33 minutes ago, Ye oldie gaffer said:

by  switching my MCR & MCL roles around the CMa I've asked him to move into channels would that mean that both him and the IF be attacking the same space and that's something else I would need to watch and consider?

Indeed this may be an issue, but in above set-up it wouldn't be an issue.