Defenders losing possession outside own box

[ThinkZebras]

Hi,

I have a problem with my CBs and FBs/WBs - my keeper is set to distribute to CBs, but quite often my CBs/FBs don't pass the ball further up the pitch, but rather stand just outside own box and let the pressing opposition take the ball and run at my keeper (luckily, the 1v1 coversion is not that high in FM, but I have still lost quite a few points due to such mistakes). Is this due to some tactics settings or are they just really bad?

I am playing a shorter passing play with a DM (4-1-2-3) or sometimes 4-2-3-1 with at least one CM set as DLP, instructions to dribble less, so they always have plenty options how to not just stand there and lose the ball. I have tried setting the team to train a lot of "ball retention" sessions, even setting some CBs/FBs individual training to "ball control", but it doesn't seem to help, even though theirs stats are improving in corresponding areas.

How can I avoid this lost possession in effect creating a clear-cut chance for the (much weaker) opposition? Should I e.g. directly instruct them to play through middle/left/right so that they know they are supposed to pass the ball forward? Are there any player stats that influence this?

The video shows what I mean, many options to pass the ball, but the player rather turns back and loses possession. It is common with my 2* or 4* players just alike. This time my FBs are set to defend/attack, typically I use them on support though when it happens (I think).

EDIT: Also, I am fighting my players not to be complacent quite a bit due to a good run (17 unbeaten now), might that be an issue? (I always say I expect a performance when the assistant raises concerns before match).

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by ThinkZebras

[afailed10]

It can happen due to several reasons: Higher mentality than they can handle and obviously visible and hidden attributes. 

[ThinkZebras]

Thanks for your reply!

They are used to dominate the field, I quite often play them on attacking mentality because my team rose quite high and most of the other team in my league are weaker/playing defensively, so they can usually handle more. 
So, you're saying there is no obvious flaw in my tactics and I should just sell such players and hope to buy some with more desirable (hidden) attributes?

[GianniM]

Probably the much lower tempo TI. Why do you want that? 

Your TIs overall don't make much sense to me. You have shorter passing and much lower tempo yet you want to counter and pass into space. Much less urgent pressing in out of possession TIs yet counter press and counter in transition TIs. 

[ThinkZebras]

The counter-press is an error, I forgot to change that from CL matches when I have to press the other teams - this time I was playing a much more defensive team so in order to draw them out a bit in order not to be just parked outside their box with no scoring opportinities, I instructed the players to press with much less urgency (to let the other team play and make errors). 
Counter on gained possession is to take advantage of any opening created when the opposition are drawn out.

As for the tempo, I am currently playing 10 matches in a row 3 days apart (1 cup match even just 2 days), so in order not to tire my team against weak teams, I play at low tempo, the passing into space is just to utilise any openings - do these two clash much? I supposed my team can still play "casually" (low tempo), but move a bit during attacks - the opposing team here had a close marking tactic so passing to stationary players seemed more risky to me.

Initially I meant to ask whether there is anything in my tactic that could cause my defenders to lose possession in such a way, when they have many option to pass the ball. Is the much lower tempo the culprit?

Edited October 28, 2020 by ThinkZebras

[GianniM]

24 minutes ago, ThinkZebras said:

Is the much lower tempo the culprit?

Not 100% sure of course but that's what caught my eye as a possibility. 

 

25 minutes ago, ThinkZebras said:

As for the tempo, I am currently playing 10 matches in a row 3 days apart (1 cup match even just 2 days), so in order not to tire my team against weak teams, I play at low tempo

Then counter TI doesn't make any sense because your midfield and forwards will be running forward while the ball is recycled at the back. You can't counter slowly. 

 

28 minutes ago, ThinkZebras said:

this time I was playing a much more defensive team

 

29 minutes ago, ThinkZebras said:

the passing into space is just to utilise any openings

Against passive, defensive teams there won't be much space to pass into so to use pass into space will not be effective. 

[ThinkZebras]

Thanks for the tips!

I'll try to increase the tempo a bit and see if it helps.

Quote

Then counter TI doesn't make any sense because your midfield and forwards will be running forward while the ball is recycled at the back. You can't counter slowly. 

Ok, I'll try to change that to a more direct passing then? I have never had much success with that though, my players just always hoof it forward to no avail; either I get an occasional 1v1 (which is not 1v1 as I have read somewhere, but rather a 1v1 + 2 speeding defenders reducing my chances of scoring to essentially zero), or the opposition defenders just collect it. 

Quote

Against passive, defensive teams there won't be much space to pass into so to use pass into space will not be effective. 

Well, the thinking was that drawing the defensive team out will create some openings that I would be able to abuse, so far it worked for me reasonable well, scoring at least one in almost every match (and, depending on my defenders' mood, not getting an embarrassing goal to draw in the 80th minute).

Edited October 28, 2020 by ThinkZebras

[herne79]

12 minutes ago, ThinkZebras said:

Ok, I'll try to change that to a more direct passing then?

Remember that Team Instructions affect the entire team.  If your only issue is with your central defenders you may want to consider instructions which affect only them (and perhaps tell your keeper to stop giving them the ball).

[GianniM]

39 minutes ago, ThinkZebras said:

Ok, I'll try to change that to a more direct passing then? I have never had much success with that though

You can always leave things to standard, then it's depending on your mentality how your players will behave. 

40 minutes ago, ThinkZebras said:

so far it worked for me reasonable well

Well if it works then it's fine. Just watch the game and see if it really does play out as expected. 

[Experienced Defender]

The tactic has too many contradictions. Some instructions are heavily possession-friendly, whereas others are totally anti-possession. Out-of-possession TIs (less urgent + tight marking) look very weird, to say the least. The setup of roles and duties is far from optimally balanced either. 

If you ask me, the tactic needs a complete rethink and subsequent overhaul. You first need to decide what exactly you want to achieve with the tactic in terms of how you want to play. 

Anyway, the most obvious cause of your specific problem of defenders losing the ball to opposition is what @GianniM said: 

5 hours ago, GianniM said:

Probably the much lower tempo TI

[ThinkZebras]

So, after playing another 10 matches or so, I can say that this problem doesn't depend on the tempo. However, it depends on the position the player is playing - such possession loss happens only to defenders left or right (WBs or FBs in my case). 

Also, I am more and more noticing that my players are running to stop the opposition's ball on the pitch (the opposition e.g. kicks the ball out of their box or misplaces a pass, my players run to stop it on the pitch) even though they are instructed to "play for set pieces". Even worse, this often presents the opposition with an unattended ball they can collect (my player ran to stop the ball on the pitch, then had to come to a stop from full speed, leaving the ball on the pitch unattended for several seconds) and the opposition start a counterattack. This is nowhere close to reality.

This doesn't happen only to my players, sometimes I "win" the ball in the same way from the opposition.

Also, the tactic I posted above was full of fast changes to get a defensive opposition come out of their shell (mid match). Usually there is high(er) tempo and high pressing intensity with a higher engagement line. Also, FBs/WBs on support duty, instead of one winger I have an IF and the DM is usually a DLP.

Edited October 30, 2020 by ThinkZebras
explained clearer what I meant

[Experienced Defender]

15 minutes ago, ThinkZebras said:

I am more and more noticing that players are running to stop the opposition's ball on the pitch (to prevent a throw-in or a corner/goal kick) even though they are instructed to "play for set pieces". Even worse, this often presents the opposition with a free ball they can collect (the player runs to stop the ball on the pitch, than has to return for it since he had to come to a stop from full speed) and start a counterattack

I am really struggling to figure out what you are actually trying to say. Especially the bolded parts. 

But whatever happens that you may think is strange is most probably caused by the many contradictions within your tactic, which I already stressed in my earlier comment: 

On 28/10/2020 at 20:16, Experienced Defender said:

The tactic has too many contradictions

Btw, the Play for set pieces TI is just one of many elements of a tactic, so it can be effective only if it makes sense within the context of the whole tactic. Because no instruction (as well as role) works in isolation. They all interact with each other. 

[autohoratio]

30 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I am really struggling to figure out what you are actually trying to say. Especially the bolded parts. 

The ball, last played by the opponent, is going out for a throw-in, goal kick or corner, but the player runs to keep it in play, the ball stops on the side/touchline and the player overruns it and ends up by the advertising hoarding, giving the opponent an uncontested ball and an opportunity for a counter-attack.

[ThinkZebras]

Edited, hopefully it is now clear what I mean. 

Does tempo or pressing intensity clash with set pieces? I guess I'm failing to see the bigger picture here how this individual instruction can not work in any tactic. To me it just seems to be "when you see a ball going out and you'll be getting a throw-in/corner/goal kick, don't bother".

Edited October 30, 2020 by ThinkZebras

[GianniM]

1 hour ago, autohoratio said:

The ball, last played by the opponent, is going out for a throw-in, goal kick or corner, but the player runs to keep it in play, the ball stops on the side/touchline and the player overruns it and ends up by the advertising hoarding, giving the opponent an uncontested ball and an opportunity for a counter-attack.

Yeah that's a flaw in the match engine, I don't think you can do anything about that unfortunately

1 hour ago, ThinkZebras said:

Does tempo or pressing intensity clash with set pieces?

Set pieces slow down play, so yeah it does

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, autohoratio said:

The ball, last played by the opponent, is going out for a throw-in, goal kick or corner, but the player runs to keep it in play, the ball stops on the side/touchline and the player overruns it and ends up by the advertising hoarding, giving the opponent an uncontested ball and an opportunity for a counter-attack.

 

1 hour ago, ThinkZebras said:

Edited, hopefully it is now clear what I mean

Okay, thanks for the clarification 

Honestly, I cannot confidently comment on something that I haven't experienced in my matches, so I cannot either confirm or deny it's a bug or tactical issue.

But then again, none of my tactics is even remotely similar to yours.

[CaptCanuck]

Going off that single example and your comments - have you tried removing 'pass into space'? Is it possible your FBs/WBs are confused as whether to stick (short pass) or twist (pass into space)?

There is an obvious short ball on in that example and if that is representative of play, then removing the choice from the player's thought process should help. Individual PIs for the guys you want pinging it into space to make up the difference.

BTW, some great newgen names in the side: Popsicle, Faze Logic, Thor Hammer, Hell Brand, should have good shirt sales ;-)