karanhsingh Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Having been through the posts, I think the tactics are playing a role for sure. The tactic the OP is using is definitely, well, OP with the attacking mentality + all the gegen-pressing tweaks etc. Basically going to create a truck-load of chances for the two AFs - which is also probably the most OP role in the Striker position as well. The young keeper Ben has decent physicals from what I could see - pace, acceleration, jumping, balance, so he will get chances due to the quality of the team and the tactics. What I can't find a reasonable explanation for is the video I saw of him cutting in and banging it in from 25 yards - he definitely should not have the ability to do that. But maybe it was a complete one-off. @rosque - interested to see how you get on with more "normal" tactics, although the IR may not work for you as the keeper keeps getting pulled off at HT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Jef- Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Well, @karanhsingh, I got similar results with IR and just playing through the match. It's just that output is about half of that of IR. I also did one game with like 8 keepers in first 11 and got slapped by 7th team in the league. So there's that as well. Gonna hop on another save to try few more games by playing it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxo Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 22 minutes ago, davehanson said: Yeah, that's why I would like the original tactic, see if there is something in that. Looking at the TI's it strikes me as just another tactic that ticks everything that the game can't cope with. that's my reading of it too, attacking, fairly extreme gegenpress, all TIs that have a very OP effect with seemingly almost any team you use them with. I've just played the same 3 games with a gegenpress tactic that has 1 striker, a keeper there scored 6 in 3. Same 3 games with a tiki taka tactic that normally works fine, keeper up front scored none and didn't really touch the ball, so for me it's the tactics doing it. Both tactics were already loaded with full familiarity too. The long range goal, well if you end up playing in tier 10 every player seemingly is capable of doing that, but only to you not for you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell9 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 26 minutes ago, Wavelberry said: So the question becomes is the tactic OP or is it to do with the game ignoring attributes. IMO, no tactic should be strong enough to allow 1* GKs score like that in a top league. Besides, even if a tactic could create a lot of chances the player need to have the right abilities to finish it. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell9 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 6 minutes ago, karanhsingh said: @rosque - interested to see how you get on with more "normal" tactics, although the IR may not work for you as the keeper keeps getting pulled off at HT. Yes, to properly test you must not holiday or the assistant will always subs out both GK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 5 minutes ago, russell9 said: IMO, no tactic should be strong enough to allow 1* GKs score like that in a top league. Besides, even if a tactic could create a lot of chances the player need to have the right abilities to finish it. Do you have a link to the original tactics please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell9 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 Just now, davehanson said: Do you have a link to the original tactics please? It's downloaded from fm-base but I can't recall exactly which thread now that it's been sometimes and I have downloaded quite a number of tactics there months ago. I'll just put my renamed tactic here for those who are interested. 442 flat gegenpress.fmf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, russell9 said: It's downloaded from fm-base but I can't recall exactly which thread now that it's been sometimes and I have downloaded quite a number of tactics there months ago. I'll just put my renamed tactic here for those who are interested. 442 flat gegenpress.fmf 45.04 kB · 0 downloads Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrManagerMan Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 I have to say this is a real eye opener. These experiments make me think that a lot of it is based on the clubs overall reputation/rating because I got Shrewsbury into the Prem in two seasons using a lot of loans and youngsters. I kept these players in the premiership just because they were the ones that got me there. When in the prem, I never won a game and got smashed weekly. Even had a couple of 7-0, 9-0 defeats. I wonder if those same players would have done better if I were a top side. And vice versa. Would the keepers the OP is using do the same at a smaller club? I doubt it. Just had a game after reading all this and felt like ending the save. This has definitely put a downer on the game for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemahh Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 This thread should be a real eye-opener for SI, when it comes to gegenpressing. This has been going on for at least two iterations now, if they don't somehow tone it down for FM21, I will be very disappointed. Knowing you're quite literally abusing the match engine if that's your preferred style takes away a lot of magic when it comes to tactic creation. If goalkeepers topping the scoring charts thanks to maxed out pressing isn't a sign for alarm, I don't know what is. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
styluz05 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Zemahh said: This thread should be a real eye-opener for SI, when it comes to gegenpressing. This has been going on for at least two iterations now, if they don't somehow tone it down for FM21, I will be very disappointed. Knowing you're quite literally abusing the match engine if that's your preferred style takes away a lot of magic when it comes to tactic creation. If goalkeepers topping the scoring charts thanks to maxed out pressing isn't a sign for alarm, I don't know what is. Gengenpressing has been ridiculously over powered as you have said. I hope this gets looked at in FM21. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingking Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 (edited) The testing is very flawed from OP but it can be improved with a screenshot of the FORM so we can see average rating and more stats. Can someone else make another thread and do their own testing? I want to see CM, CDM Edited October 29, 2020 by kingking Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Beckham Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, kingking said: The testing is very flawed from OP but it can be improved with a screenshot of the FORM so we can see average rating and more stats. Can someone else make another thread and do their own testing? I want to see CM, CDM I am doing one with Burnley called the Defender Upfront Challenge after being inspired by @russell9 and the Phil Jones PSG reddit. Here is the link. I will be doing more tonight and posting my progress. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell9 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 3 hours ago, Zemahh said: This thread should be a real eye-opener for SI, when it comes to gegenpressing. This has been going on for at least two iterations now, if they don't somehow tone it down for FM21, I will be very disappointed. Knowing you're quite literally abusing the match engine if that's your preferred style takes away a lot of magic when it comes to tactic creation. If goalkeepers topping the scoring charts thanks to maxed out pressing isn't a sign for alarm, I don't know what is. To be honest, we should focus on why firstly, a GK is able to make himself available for such chances to occur (attributes like anticipation, off the ball and etc), second, why is the GK able to finish those chances (attributes like technique, shooting and etc) in the toughest league. Ben's anticipation 8, off the ball 8, technique 6, penalty taking 3 and his penalty success rate is close to 80% in my test. Gegenpress being effective in FM20 is another topic. In fact, any kind or style of tactic that could create chances can reproduce similar results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell9 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 30 minutes ago, kingking said: The testing is very flawed from OP but it can be improved with a screenshot of the FORM so we can see average rating and more stats. Can someone else make another thread and do their own testing? I want to see CM, CDM May I know what is flawed in this experiment and why? Just because certain player roles are not being used? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alian62 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 So what is the consensus here ? Are we saying this game is rigged or there is a serious flaw in its make up ? Annoyingly a moderator hides this away while others main forum dont get to see this . Just curious if this is a good thing or a bad thing 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Jef- Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 3 hours ago, alian62 said: So what is the consensus here ? Are we saying this game is rigged or there is a serious flaw in its make up ? Annoyingly a moderator hides this away while others main forum dont get to see this . Just curious if this is a good thing or a bad thing We will never know because SI staff will check and see this is exploit tactic and not bother. I cannot replicate it in my saves. In all my saves, with different tactics I get bad return from keeper as expected. And since russell9 is apparently scared of me poking around the save because I implied use of 3rd party software, we will never know ourselves either. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemahh Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, alian62 said: So what is the consensus here ? Are we saying this game is rigged or there is a serious flaw in its make up ? The consensus is there's still plenty of "exploit" tactics in the current match engine. We might no longer have @Rashidi's Scramjet, but there's still tactics that enable you to overachieve out of all proportions, regardless of the quality of your squad. The tactic @russell9 is using looks very much like BEOWULF 4-4-2. Attacking Mentality, two Inverted Wingbacks, two Wingers, two Advanced Forwards and maxed-out pressing—a combination the game simply can't deal with, which results in all kinds of funky results. That said, a goalkeeper should still not be scoring against Premier League defences as often as he does, but I'm willing to bet there's something about how the game calculates these tactics, rather than attributes "not mattering". Virtually every tactic that has been proven to overachieve uses the same set of instructions. Edited October 31, 2020 by Zemahh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshMourinho Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Feels bad as someone who hasn't focused on gegenpressing tactics this year. All the focus on attributes, getting in the right player, making smart decisions for your tactics (or at least what you hope are smart decisions) meanwhile people are getting ludicrous success picking any old default gegenpress tactic and getting 40 goals from Phil Jones lmao. Disappointing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sopel Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 This is a disaster on SI hands if same experiments would prove successful in FM21... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aiston Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Ah, yet I'm struggling to get 5 star, best in the world strikers to score more than 15 in a season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakers Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Is that 442 the same as the 442 Benfica tactic that is on FMBASE? Because that seems to work wonders with any team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maradonna Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) On 27/10/2020 at 10:34, samuelawachie said: I gotta say that this is really sad to see that something so basic and flawed could game the ME like this (that is supposed to be robust and sound) I just find it really sad. If this was done in say, FM12, I wouldn't be complaining too much. Very sad. And I really don't want to hear from the people that claim that "Unrealistic inputs produce unrealistic output". Artificial Intelligence in the 21st century has gone way past the age of GIGO. Things should be more sophisticated now State of the art AI is not easy usable for a game like FM. GIGO is still a sound statement to this day. Garbage data, is still producing garbage models. Otherwise data preprocessing would be obsolete, which it isn't, far away from it. Secondly always have hardware requirements for such advanced AIs in mind, plus that it needs to be used across ALL games withing the save. Now I would not judge this case as a 'garbage in' case The GK could easily be that 17yo garbage youth player you may have to play at some point bc of injuries and bans. /EDIT: So OP took an "engine breaker" tactic, plugged garbage players on top and they perform decently? This is the actual feature of an engine breaker! I think on FM19 somebody build an engine breaker tactic and he won the CL first season no transfers with Rosenborg Trondheim. Conclusion is basically that engine breakers still exist, quite underwhelming after 5 pages of comments and teasing screenshots. Edited October 31, 2020 by Maradonna Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCFC87 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 30 minutes ago, Maradonna said: /EDIT: So OP took an "engine breaker" tactic, plugged garbage players on top and they perform decently? This is the actual feature of an engine breaker! I think on FM19 somebody build an engine breaker tactic and he won the CL first season no transfers with Rosenborg Trondheim. Conclusion is basically that engine breakers still exist, quite underwhelming after 5 pages of comments and teasing screenshots. How would you explain the Reddit Phil Jones thing? That uses a prebuilt tactic in the game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maradonna Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 14 minutes ago, HCFC87 said: How would you explain the Reddit Phil Jones thing? That uses a prebuilt tactic in the game havent looked into it, dont know the details. So I cant comment on that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DknDhn Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 This and the reddit experiment made me really interested so i created a save myself, ive picked man city as my team and im using the default gegenpressing tactic. I've put the 17 yo goalkeeper louie moulden as my striker(using him as an advanced forward). I will update you guys once im halfway through the season but 2 games in this doesn't look good as he already has 2 goals (1 pen) and 2 assists... 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCFC87 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 16 hours ago, Maradonna said: havent looked into it, dont know the details. So I cant comment on that. https://www.reddit.com/r/footballmanagergames/comments/jleys3/i_put_phil_jones_up_front_for_psg_heres_what/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DknDhn Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 23 saat önce, DknDhn said: This and the reddit experiment made me really interested so i created a save myself, ive picked man city as my team and im using the default gegenpressing tactic. I've put the 17 yo goalkeeper louie moulden as my striker(using him as an advanced forward). I will update you guys once im halfway through the season but 2 games in this doesn't look good as he already has 2 goals (1 pen) and 2 assists... So here is a quick update... Uhhhhh 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
styluz05 Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 On 28/10/2020 at 09:42, russell9 said: Results are very worrying. I doubt we're get a full reply from SI though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger666 Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 1 hour ago, styluz05 said: Results are very worrying. I doubt we're get a full reply from SI though. You won't get any reply from SI Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee82gx Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Let's try to break this down.. 1. Any good team with pressing will achieve this? 1.1 if yes then there is some scripting happening? A guaranteed Happy ending perhaps? 1.2 how does it still ensure that other players played by AI gets the next highest amount of goals? Is it ability or the presence or lack thereof of the pressing tactics? My analysis is still not solid. Fm21 should just ensure that pressing is not so over powering by 1. Really slowing players down by stamina. This doesn't seem to happen at all. A player with very very poor physical condition seems to still run the length of the pitch at the 90th minute at full pelt. 2. Temporary pace and stamina ala FIFA maybe? 3. Have a big penalty of high pressing towards speed. Both the player being pressed AND the player pressing should slow down considerably afterwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Neil Brock Posted November 2, 2020 Administrators Share Posted November 2, 2020 For anything like this where an unrealistic scenario has been played out in game, we'd need the save game to look into it in more detail. Various factors could make a large difference in terms of how effective a player would be in that role so we'd need to check the save and see which were and weren't active. Details on how to upload a save here - https://community.sigames.com/faq/football-manager-2020/238_how-to/241_pc/how-to-upload-files-for-support-r847/ Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
upthetoon Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 heart-breaking to see this thread. i've always suspected that attributes has no major relevance in the game. i can be wrong and i've no way to proof. its just my hunch with years of playing this outdated ME. i believe it's more like a collective CA of the entire squad and morale and form etc all crunched into numbers and processed by ME and certain plays are created based on that. who is the one scoring and stats of that player has very little bearing. what i've said could be complete garbage though. no idea how it works. but 'experiments' like this is certainly an eye-opener. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
saihtam Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) I know it is very very time consuming, but really apricate the work you have done here with these games. It has been more eye opeining for many I am sure. But it would be interesting to see for example similar experience done with FM17 and then maybe more 3 years back with FM15. There have been several big changes between these times and FM17 is widley loved ME also. So maybe if we could compare the results, there could be some other things to consider not only that FM20 ME is broken, or something more in depth needs to be thinked over and reworked? Edited November 3, 2020 by saihtam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo_Francescoli Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) I think it's the gegenpress, once again. Try that with some cautious low-block with counter-attacking, and I bet those GK's will perform like they should, i.e. crap. The only caveat is that you'll lose most of your games instead of winning them - which also shouldn't be happening with the players Liverpool have. Edited November 3, 2020 by Enzo_Francescoli Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
99 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 5 horas atrás, Enzo_Francescoli disse: I think it's the gegenpress, once again. Try that with some cautious low-block with counter-attacking, and I bet those GK's will perform like they should, i.e. crap. The only caveat is that you'll lose most of your games instead of winning them - which also shouldn't be happening with the players Liverpool have. I really can't understand that argument. That means that I can't ever share my achievements unless I play some park-the-bus tactic that I hate to watch IRL? Cause if I play some tiki-taka, or some gegenpress, or basically any tactic with the most common of purposes in football (to attack!) it's like I'm cheating? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo_Francescoli Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 12 hours ago, 99 said: I really can't understand that argument. That means that I can't ever share my achievements unless I play some park-the-bus tactic that I hate to watch IRL? Cause if I play some tiki-taka, or some gegenpress, or basically any tactic with the most common of purposes in football (to attack!) it's like I'm cheating? It means that gegenpressing works unproportionally better than counter-attacking styles, and that's irrespective of the club, the players, their attributes or the opponent. It also means that, all other things being equal, there is too huge a gap between the results these styles can provide, especially if counter-attacking does suit the club stature and the players better. Considering how overpowered certain settings (maxed out lines and pressing, attacking mentality, a bunch of attack duties) currently are, I do regard these styles borderline cheating, yes. No team in the world is playing like that for every minute of every game, not even Klopp anymore, not the Red Bull teams. Basically, it's chasing a goal in the last 10 minutes, except all the time. It's just one man's opinion, of course, but the results the OP's getting because of these settings shouldn't happen in a football simulation game with a 25-year history. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger666 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 (edited) I put Kepa up front for PSG. Here's what happened https://www.reddit.com/r/footballmanagergames/comments/jpn6nn/i_put_kepa_up_front_for_psg_heres_what_happened/ Edited November 7, 2020 by Tiger666 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steam just is Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 5 hours ago, Tiger666 said: I put Kepa up front for PSG. Here's what happened https://www.reddit.com/r/footballmanagergames/comments/jpn6nn/i_put_kepa_up_front_for_psg_heres_what_happened/ This is just obscene. Jokes. Can you put this on the main forum please. People need to be made aware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Beckham Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tiger666 said: I put Kepa up front for PSG. Here's what happened https://www.reddit.com/r/footballmanagergames/comments/jpn6nn/i_put_kepa_up_front_for_psg_heres_what_happened/ Are you the guy who posted the original Phil Jones story on reddit then? If you are then thank you for posting it as it inspired this experiment and my challenge as well and also probably made Sigames/SEGA aware of flaws they probably didn't know before. Edited November 8, 2020 by Ronaldo Beckham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger666 Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 5 hours ago, steam just is said: This is just obscene. Jokes. Can you put this on the main forum please. People need to be made aware. There's no point, mods will lock it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhuoluochen Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 On 28/10/2020 at 22:23, thiagoanjo said: Say it for Firmino That's unfair! He's a defensive regista box to box anchor man false nine! /s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
santy001 Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 We would direct anyone who gets unusual issues such as this to the below forum @Tiger666: https://community.sigames.com/forum/724-all-other-gameplay/ Create a bug report, upload your save, let SI look into it. This isn't a promise you'll get a detailed response, an explanation of what has gone wrong and why but it enables the staff at SI to take a look at it and see why it has happened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
santy001 Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 I've hidden your post @steam just is because it doesn't actually do anything that would help get the issue looked into or resolved. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell9 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 My conclusion is the root cause is never the tactic or style, it's individual player's position/role familiarity and key attributes being severely underrated in the player performance calculation (player able to make himself available for chances to occur and able to finish them) and final match result calculation (the team still able to win comfortably with 2 GKs up front). Sure SI could tone down gegenpress but then other style such as tiki taka or counter attack will replace gegenpress as the more effective style and then we will still be able to reproduce this with the new effective style if the root cause is not being addressed. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiagoanjo Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 3 horas atrás, russell9 disse: final match result calculation I believe there is no such thing on FM. The final result isnt premade, is just the consequence of the slices calculations, not the other way around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaW Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Well, since the beta comes out soon, I thought I'd try to replicate the results here. So I took over Liverpool set up the pre-set 4-4-2 gegenpress and not made any changes. I will holiday between matches, but I'll play them without doing anything to avoid the AM doing anything strange. I'll only make subs when I have injuries, otherwise this team will play every game no matter condition. So far, I've played one single friendly and it went as I would have expected. Some chances, but the goalkeepers up top flopped all of them. I'll continue for each game going forward and we'll see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaW Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Next friendly, won 4-0 over Fortuna Sittard, the strikers did next to nothing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaW Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Lost 3-0 to Sporting in the next friendly, still nothing from the strikers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaW Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Next friendly, home to Napoli. 0-0 both strikers missed big chances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now