An UNTESTED "total football" tactic (just my own interpretation of what it may look like)

[Experienced Defender]

As the title says, I have not tested it, so I don't know at the moment if it would work or not. So whoever is willing - and brave enough - to give it a try is welcome to test the tactic and report back on the impressions.

I opted to use the wide 442 diamond formation for this particular tactic, but there are other systems that can suit the TF style and its many variants.

So here it is:

TQ     CFsu

SS

IWsu                                    WMsu

REG

WBsu      BPDde    BPDde   IWBsu

SKat

Mentality - Attacking

In possession - play out of defence, slightly shorter passing, run at defence, work ball into box, be more disciplined and slightly narrower (i.e. standard) width

In transition - counter, counter-press and distribute quickly

Out of possession - much higher D-line and much higher LOE

NOTE: I personally would try a tactic like this with top teams only, but you off course can experiment with any team you want 

If anything, you are likely to have a lot of fun  

[camoulton21]

Do you mind explaining some of your thought processes when making this tactic? I think a total football tactic building has lots of areas for teaching tactic building in FM in general, this might make the post more beneficial for people not attempting a direct interpretation of total football as well. Just a thought so no worries if this puts too much on your plate

[NotSoSpecialOne]

TQ - CF(Su) partnership with a SS behind them is one of my favourite trios up front.

With 2 ball playing defenders, a sweeper keeper on attack and the counter TI, I do wonder if the Regista might get bypassed more than is ideal. But that could just as easily be a non-issue.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

With 2 ball playing defenders, a sweeper keeper on attack and the counter TI, I do wonder if the Regista might get bypassed more than is ideal. But that could just as easily be a non-issue

Well, that exactly is the most interesting thing, because such a setup totally runs counter to my usual tactical approach  

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, camoulton21 said:

Do you mind explaining some of your thought processes when making this tactic?

Sure. Just tell me what specifically you are interested in? Especially as this tactic is quite unlike my regular tactics, so I sort of strayed away from my "comfort zone". 

 

1 hour ago, camoulton21 said:

I think a total football tactic building has lots of areas for teaching tactic building in FM in general, this might make the post more beneficial for people not attempting a direct interpretation of total football as well. Just a thought so no worries if this puts too much on your plate

A problem with total football as such is that everyone seems to have their own view of what it actually means and represents. Apart from the original concept of TF associated with Great Johan Cruyff, when it comes to modern-day versions of total football, some people identify it with Barca's style under Pep, others with Liverpool under Klopp and so on. For me personally, it should meet 3 basic criteria - fast, fluid and dynamic. 

[Experienced Defender]

And yes - I forgot to add the Overlap left and Underlap right TIs 

[ElJefe4]

I'd be happy to start up a save and put this into practice. You mentioned you'd recommend using a top team, do you have any in particular in mind that would have the players to suit it?

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, ElJefe4 said:

You mentioned you'd recommend using a top team, do you have any in particular in mind that would have the players to suit it?

I guess Liverpool could be a good choice. Not because I am their fan, but because they have all-round players who should be able to put such a demanding style of play into practice. 

[ElJefe4]

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I guess Liverpool could be a good choice. Not because I am their fan, but because they have all-round players who should be able to put such a demanding style of play into practice. 

I've already got one going with Liverpool atm so just to keep things clearer in my own head I've gone with Barcelona. CF (S), T (A) and SS (A) should suit Suarez, Messi and Greizmann quite well actually. Dembele will play from the left. A bit unsure who will fill the Wide Midfield role on the right, but I'll see how it goes.

[Bot Makel]

Very interesting, why do you use to be more disciplined? It would be an instruction that I would perhaps use for kloop's Liverpool. In total football I want more movement and that the players find the best space to receive the pass.
Obviously it has to be tested but it was the first thing that struck me looking at it.

My idea It would be:

F9       CFsu

SS

IWsu                                    WPsu

DMsu

WBsu      BPDde    BPDde   WBsu

SKat

Edited October 15, 2020 by Bot Makel
Add my idea

[NotSoSpecialOne]

I've given it a bit of a test as Real Madrid. Only made the one signing in Lautaro Martinez, as Madrid's younger strikers (Jovic and the two Brazilians) aren't quite suitable (yet) to play as either a TQ or CF(Su) as first choice. The preferred 11 (Valverde has the makings of a tasty Regista IMO):

Games played so far:

As I said previously, big fan of the TQ - CF(Su) and SS trio - have used it previously but with a narrow diamond instead of wide. Lots of interesting movement and combinations with the right players. No exception to that here and overall team movement & combinations look really good so far and things are starting to click into place as players get used to it. Regista in particular gets involved quite a lot so earlier fears unfounded.

Defensively, it's quite frail in central areas but that's something you would expect from a wide diamond, especially with one that has a Regista at the base. I don't think that's something that really needs addressing and quite like the Regista's involvement here - there's also something to be said for not caring too much about the defensive side of things and just going out there with a "We'll just outscore you" vibe.

Sadly no El Classico until January of this season, so seeing how it stands up to (or not) Barcelona is some ways off.

[Karlo]

That is a coincidence, I am currently doing this with Barcelona. Actually wanted to wait a while before posting the results, but here's a preview.

I see some beautiful, fluid football. Also the goal scorers are pretty much distributed over the entire team.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Karlo

[Sarriball14]

I decided to switch to your total football idea 3/4 of the way through my season. i was having good results previous to the switch but i wasn't quite happy with how we were playing. i switched to the tactic for the palace away game and already noticed the difference in the style of play, unfortunately we wasted a lot of opportunities and they then scored a 93rd minute equalizer on the counter. walloped united at home and then a few inconsistant results after but after the draw away to city the results we extraordinary! You quite often get exposed defensively but its not such a problem if you are scoring a lot. Will continue to use tactic in the next season and see how it goes

[Experienced Defender]

17 hours ago, Bot Makel said:

Very interesting, why do you use to be more disciplined?

Very good question, and honestly one I was expecting 

The only reason I opted to add the BMD TI is to sort of offset the "excessive" amount of creativity and freedom of movement caused by the combination of the attacking team mentality and many roaming and creative roles within the setup. Because even though total football needs to be fluid in general, some degree of structure should exist nevertheless (so as to avoid tactical "anarchy" of sorts). But given that I have not tested the tactic myself, I don't know if the BMD was a good idea or not. So it's quite possible that the instruction may not be necessary. 

17 hours ago, Bot Makel said:

In total football I want more movement and that the players find the best space to receive the pass.
Obviously it has to be tested but it was the first thing that struck me looking at it.

My idea It would be:

F9       CFsu

SS

IWsu                                    WPsu

DMsu

WBsu      BPDde    BPDde   WBsu

SKat

Looks good to me 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

You quite often get exposed defensively but its not such a problem if you are scoring a lot

That's exactly the intention of this tactic and playing style  

[Bot Makel]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Very good question, and honestly one I was expecting 

The only reason I opted to add the BMD TI is to sort of offset the "excessive" amount of creativity and freedom of movement caused by the combination of the attacking team mentality and many roaming and creative roles within the setup. Because even though total football needs to be fluid in general, some degree of structure should exist nevertheless (so as to avoid tactical "anarchy" of sorts). But given that I have not tested the tactic myself, I don't know if the BMD was a good idea or not. So it's quite possible that the instruction may not be necessary. 

Ok clear, it makes sense to tell the players you have a lot of freedom but try to follow the preset tactical plan anyway.

 

As you said above, the three main principles of total football are: fluidity, speed and dynamism. Speed and dynamism thanks to the high mentality. Fluidity, having removed the team shape, I would try to achieve through the use of generalist roles. For example, not shadow striker but attacking midfielder on duty. So try to limit the instructions and leave complete freedom to the player to play that role. I wouldn't even use playmakers who tend to attract the ball and slow down the game.
I'm just curious to know what you think, it is absolutely not a criticism but a comparison. 😁

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Bot Makel said:

Fluidity, having removed the team shape, I would try to achieve through the use of generalist roles

I tend to achieve more fluidity primarily through the use of more support duties and secondarily via roaming and creative roles (generally speaking, not only in the context of this particular tactic). 

 

2 hours ago, Bot Makel said:

For example, not shadow striker but attacking midfielder on duty. So try to limit the instructions and leave complete freedom to the player to play that role. I wouldn't even use playmakers who tend to attract the ball and slow down the game.
I'm just curious to know what you think, it is absolutely not a criticism but a comparison

Nothing wrong in that approach per se. As long as you avoid viewing things in isolation (be it roles/duties or instructions) 

[RDF Tactics]

oooh this looks nice! how come you opted to go with WM? that role intrigues me the most in this set up. I was thinking Winger (s) with hold position but i'm guessing no PIs

[Karlo]

Spoiler

So far in the league played 20 - won 17 - drawn 2 - lost 1. Goals for 48, goals against 4.
 

Spoiler

18 (!) different goal scorers. 

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

how come you opted to go with WM? that role intrigues me the most in this set up

WM is my favorite wide MF role, simply because it is more flexible than both the IW and - especially - winger. Whenever I play in a formation with MR&L positions, a WM is employed on one flank at least (sometimes even on both). Plus, you can play a "natural" winger or IW in the WM role without any negative effects on his attacking performance. At least my experience is such  

 

15 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

I was thinking Winger (s) with hold position but i'm guessing no PIs

How do you mean "no PIs"? Hold position is also a PI.

Perhaps you meant no PIs other than "hold position"?

[RDF Tactics]

On 17/10/2020 at 15:09, Experienced Defender said:

How do you mean "no PIs"? Hold position is also a PI.

Perhaps you meant no PIs other than "hold position"?

oh  sorry, I meant I would've used winger with hold position, but i'm guessing this set up has no PIs 

[Experienced Defender]

54 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

oh  sorry, I meant I would've used winger with hold position, but i'm guessing this set up has no PIs 

I generally tend to avoid using a lot of PIs (if any). And even when I use them, it's usually just a couple of PIs. 

In this tactic, the only PI I would possibly add is "sit narrower" for the ML/IW. 

[camoulton21]

On 15/10/2020 at 22:04, Experienced Defender said:

Sure. Just tell me what specifically you are interested in? Especially as this tactic is quite unlike my regular tactics, so I sort of strayed away from my "comfort zone". 

 

1. What was your idea for balancing out the 442 diamond wide, particularly in the midfield?
2. How does your choice of roles/duties compliment the three principles of the playstyle (fluidity, speed and dynamism)?

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, camoulton21 said:

What was your idea for balancing out the 442 diamond wide, particularly in the midfield?

Not sure I understand the question. 

Perhaps you actually wanted to ask how do I compensate for the gap in the central midfield inherent in the wide diamond as a system? 

 

5 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

How does your choice of roles/duties compliment the three principles of the playstyle (fluidity, speed and dynamism)?

The dominance of support duties coupled with a relatively high number of roaming and creative roles is about fluidity of play. The more support duties, the more players are involved in both attacking and defensive transitions. 

Speed and dynamism are achieved through the combination of these roles and team instructions including the mentality (the attacking team mentality encourages faster attacking play and a more adventurous passing style).

The Be more disciplined TI is there only to harness all this a bit in order to prevent tactical "anarchy". 

[camoulton21]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Perhaps you actually wanted to ask how do I compensate for the gap in the central midfield inherent in the wide diamond as a system? 

 

Yeah that's what I meant. I definitely could have worded my question better

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Perhaps you actually wanted to ask how do I compensate for the gap in the central midfield inherent in the wide diamond as a system? 

 

Yeah that's what I meant. I definitely could have worded my question better

Through roles and duties. An aggressive role in DM + IWB on the right + IW on the left - and all of them with support duty - are supposed to help bridge the midfield gap. Of course, if the style of play was less adventurous, then some of these roles would be different. But this setup is intentionally made to be such as it is. 

[Karlo]

Season ended well.






I'm now toying with your 3-4-3 diamond 

[StatboySpurs]

On 15/10/2020 at 20:04, Experienced Defender said:

As the title says, I have not tested it, so I don't know at the moment if it would work or not. So whoever is willing - and brave enough - to give it a try is welcome to test the tactic and report back on the impressions.

I opted to use the wide 442 diamond formation for this particular tactic, but there are other systems that can suit the TF style and its many variants.

So here it is:

TQ     CFsu

SS

IWsu                                    WMsu

REG

WBsu      BPDde    BPDde   IWBsu

SKat

Mentality - Attacking

In possession - play out of defence, slightly shorter passing, run at defence, work ball into box, be more disciplined and slightly narrower (i.e. standard) width

In transition - counter, counter-press and distribute quickly

Out of possession - much higher D-line and much higher LOE

NOTE: I personally would try a tactic like this with top teams only, but you off course can experiment with any team you want 

If anything, you are likely to have a lot of fun  

I'm trying this with Real Sociedad.  Not a big club, but they do have some fairly skilled players.  Started unemployed, got the job in November.  I've climbed from 18th on the table when I took over to 10th in mid-January, and I hope I can squeeze into the Europa League.  I actually got a 1-1 draw with Real Madrid.  Best thing about it is that two of my best players have been hurt and I'm about to get them back, so I can conceivably get better.

Couple of notes.  I tweaked it slightly for my personnel, taking some advice from another post in the thread. A wide playmaker instead of a WM.  A DM on support instead of a REG.  And a right WB on support.  Keeps me more defensive in the back, but I don't sacrifice a playmaker since I added the WP, and the WB on the right adds width. I still don't quite have the proper personnel, and the board gave me a $0 transfer budget in January, though I did manage to bring in Thiago Almada on a long with a requirement to buy in the summer (and of course he's on Olympic qualifying duty...sigh...that's probably my least favorite thing about FM...the freaking Olympics.  Oh well.  Hopefully Argentina gets knocked out early!)

The issue is against bigger clubs, naturally.  Atletico and Barcelona smashed me 3-0 and 3-1, so I need to find a way to get tighter at the back against bigger sides.  I figure I should set the DM to defend and my lines deeper.  But I'm no tactical genius by any stretch.  I'm decent, but nothing special.  Maybe I need to switch to a 4-1-2-3 against bigger sides, but with the same basic principles.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Experienced Defender

[camoulton21]

Another question for you @Experienced Defender. What was your thought process behind choosing an Attacking Mentality for this playstyle? I've heard people speak about how important a role team mentality plays in tactic building because it affects so many other instructions, but I still personally struggle to understand which mentality to choose and why I'm choosing it when I'm looking to create a tactic

Edited October 23, 2020 by camoulton21

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, camoulton21 said:

Another question for you @Experienced Defender. What was your thought process behind choosing an Attacking Mentality for this playstyle?

To encourage faster transitions and faster attacking play overall + more aggressive defensive behavior without upping the pressing urgency instruction. But you need to view it in conjunction with my selection of roles and duties as well. With so many support duties I use within the system, these transitions - both attacking and defensive - are smoother because they involve a lot of my players who are helping one another. 

 

1 hour ago, camoulton21 said:

I've heard people speak about how important a role team mentality plays in tactic building because it affects so many other instructions, but I still personally struggle to understand which mentality to choose and why I'm choosing it when I'm looking to create a tactic

Well, I think my response to your first question pretty much answers this one as well 

[camoulton21]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

To encourage faster transitions and faster attacking play overall + more aggressive defensive behavior without upping the pressing urgency instruction. But you need to view it in conjunction with my selection of roles and duties as well. With so many support duties I use within the system, these transitions - both attacking and defensive - are smoother because they involve a lot of my players who are helping one another. 

 

So you can think about mentality asking your team to be more aggressive or more passive? Also, do you choose the mentality you want to play with before selecting roles/duties? (Like you said making sure that the team mentality and roles/duties complement one another)

[Experienced Defender]

35 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

So you can think about mentality asking your team to be more aggressive or more passive?

More aggressive or passive in the defensive phase of play, and more or less willing to take risks/be adventurous in the attacking phase. 

 

35 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

Also, do you choose the mentality you want to play with before selecting roles/duties? (Like you said making sure that the team mentality and roles/duties complement one another)

I tend to first sort out roles and duties, because that's the key element of any tactic IMHO. And the setup is always based on the style of play I want to implement, which in turn is based on my previous analysis of the squad (because I don't want to force my players into a style of football they are not good enough to play). Then I make sure that my team instructions (including the mentality) are compatible with my intended style of play in general and setup of roles and duties in particular. 

[StatboySpurs]

On 15/10/2020 at 17:58, Bot Makel said:

Very interesting, why do you use to be more disciplined? It would be an instruction that I would perhaps use for kloop's Liverpool. In total football I want more movement and that the players find the best space to receive the pass.
Obviously it has to be tested but it was the first thing that struck me looking at it.

My idea It would be:

F9       CFsu

SS

IWsu                                    WPsu

DMsu

WBsu      BPDde    BPDde   WBsu

SKat

I'm using this, or something very close to this, as Spurs in FM21.  I don't have anyone suitable for the F9 role, so I'm generally using a Poacher instead.  He's got 10 goals in 12 PL games at the age of 33.  He's been hurt a lot, and I only changed to the tactic about midway through the season.  It's year 5 in my save, but my first year at Spurs, so the personnel is much different than real-life Spurs at the moment.  Basically Dele and Dier are the only two players remaining.  Dele is good in the SS role, and Dier is good in the DM role.  

Mine really isn't a total football tactic, though.  Mentality is positive instead of attacking, and I use a Normal LOE and high defensive line, rather than pressing high up the pitch.  But it does make for some pretty football.  I've also used a DLP at DM and a wide midfielder on the right, depending on my players available.