4141 dm Wide struggle against defensive minded teams

[samcro_001]

Hi football manager community. I come today to ask for suggestions and guidance for my 4141 dm wide formation. I managing Manchester United entering my second season, last one we came third behind liverpool and city. I think I have a pretty good squad that can go and win the premier league even the champions league. Main change from last season is the sell of Pogba who moved to PSG given that he was desperate to join them. 

The tactic as you can see above look quite balanced if I might say. Team instructions very simple, also using split block the 3 forwards and mezalla have high pressing p.i , even tough sometimes I make some tweaks depending on the opposition I face and formation. Some of the tweaks I usually do is to increase the width when facing two dms formation or when I am struggling to create chances. 

I also tweak the crossing option which is usually on mixed. Low crosses when facing attacking minded sided and whipped crosses when against teams that defend deep ( I read somewhere in the forum don't remember where)

Basically I want to play possession progressive football I don't mind having crazy possession stats. I sometimes dominate teams specially at home and play some beautiful football but I get frustrated when I have teams like fulham who when faced I end up having no less than 35% possession it's like the team has never played together everything falls apart, those teams like fulham, wolves or any teams that employ 352 formation usually play the ball around between they defenders who usually have 80 to 90 passes its really frustrating and would like some guidance to help counter it. Because I know that my formation is not the problem or maybe. 

Sorry for the long description just wanted to give as much details 

 

Thanks 

 

P.s forgot to add my Pressing  forward has roam from position instruction

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by samcro_001

[Zemahh]

20 minutes ago, samcro_001 said:

I sometimes dominate teams specially at home and play some beautiful football but I get frustrated when I have teams like fulham who when faced I end up having no less than 35% possession it's like the team has never played together everything falls apart, those teams like fulham, wolves or any teams that employ 352 formation usually play the ball around between they defenders who usually have 80 to 90 passes its really frustrating and would like some guidance to help counter it.

The way Mentalities are designed, the ones at the lower end are very risk-averse. What that means, is that when Fulham lines up in a Defensive 5-3-2, they will be perfectly fine with doing nothing but keeping the ball at the back to waste time, if you allow them to. Bottom-heavy formation in combination with low-risk Mentality gives them endless passing options at the back, whereas you only have one striker and two wide forwards that engage early—you still end up getting outnumbered 5 vs. 3, which means your front three will have a hard time winning the ball back regardless of their pressing instructions. The Action Zones you posted demonstrate that perfectly (you struggled controlling possession inside Fulham's half).

While 4-1-2-3 is a balanced formation, it might be too conservative against lesser teams. They might not threaten you with keeping possession at the back, but they will certainly end up wasting a lot of time. In order to prevent teams from doing that, you need more numbers up top (e.g. 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-4-1 w/ four attacking midfielders). Top-heavy formations might be inherently more risky, but sadly there's no other way of winning the ball back early against extremely defensive teams. They also give you an option of man marking opposition defensive midfielder with your attacking midfielder, which can be quite effective.

To sum it up, you're not the only one trying to use sensible tactics, but the overly-defensive AI turns up to spoil the fun. There's multiple threads on this topic across the forum, but for now you only have two options:

1. Stick with your current tactic and allow defensive teams to keep non-threatening possession (which could potentially backfire if you don't score early, the AI snatches one from a set piece and then you no longer have time to win the game)
2. Use a more aggressive tactic until you're a goal or two up and then switch back to your current 4-1-2-3

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, samcro_001 said:

 

2 hours ago, samcro_001 said:

Basically I want to play possession progressive football

The setup of roles and duties looks pretty nicely balanced, I am just wondering what's your reasoning behind playing striker as a PF on support duty? Is he perhaps not good enough to play as an F9 or DLF on support or CF on support? 

When it comes to instructions, you may want to consider adding the be more expressive in possession and distribution to CBs and FBs in transition. 

[samcro_001]

2 hours ago, Zemahh said:

The way Mentalities are designed, the ones at the lower end are very risk-averse. What that means, is that when Fulham lines up in a Defensive 5-3-2, they will be perfectly fine with doing nothing but keeping the ball at the back to waste time, if you allow them to. Bottom-heavy formation in combination with low-risk Mentality gives them endless passing options at the back, whereas you only have one striker and two wide forwards that engage early—you still end up getting outnumbered 5 vs. 3, which means your front three will have a hard time winning the ball back regardless of their pressing instructions. The Action Zones you posted demonstrate that perfectly (you struggled controlling possession inside Fulham's half).

While 4-1-2-3 is a balanced formation, it might be too conservative against lesser teams. They might not threaten you with keeping possession at the back, but they will certainly end up wasting a lot of time. In order to prevent teams from doing that, you need more numbers up top (e.g. 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-4-1 w/ four attacking midfielders). Top-heavy formations might be inherently more risky, but sadly there's no other way of winning the ball back early against extremely defensive teams. They also give you an option of man marking opposition defensive midfielder with your attacking midfielder, which can be quite effective.

To sum it up, you're not the only one trying to use sensible tactics, but the overly-defensive AI turns up to spoil the fun. There's multiple threads on this topic across the forum, but for now you only have two options:

1. Stick with your current tactic and allow defensive teams to keep non-threatening possession (which could potentially backfire if you don't score early, the AI snatches one from a set piece and then you no longer have time to win the game)
2. Use a more aggressive tactic until you're a goal or two up and then switch back to your current 4-1-2-3

@zemahh thanks for the suggestion. I have seen it also in couple of topics some gamers having the same problem I guess we have to adjust and play as it is. I will try to implement the the agressive tactic you suggest and see if it can help close the gap in term of possession. But the fulham team I faced used a 4231 but very defensive minded as you might have seen on the action zones 

[samcro_001]

43 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

The setup of roles and duties looks pretty nicely balanced, I am just wondering what's your reasoning behind playing striker as a PF on support duty? Is he perhaps not good enough to play as an F9 or DLF on support or CF on support? 

When it comes to instructions, you may want to consider adding the be more expressive in possession and distribution to CBs and FBs in transition. 

Thanks for the reply. Well the reason I put my striker on PF support is that I didn't want him to move into channels for the fact that I was afraid him, the mezalla and wing back on support will occupy the same space  which is why I gave him roam from position. My striker is Lutaro Martinez who has all the required attributes to play all striker roles. I sometimes use Martial, Greenwood on that position too

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, samcro_001 said:

Well the reason I put my striker on PF support is that I didn't want him to move into channels for the fact that I was afraid him, the mezalla and wing back on support will occupy the same space  which is why I gave him roam from position

I don't see why would moving into channels be a problem, but okay. The theory about "occupying the same space" are more often than not just unfounded myths. 

Btw, if I remember correctly, F9 is not hard-coded to move into channels. 

2 hours ago, samcro_001 said:

My striker is Lutaro Martinez

I would definitely play him as an F9 in your current system. He is too good (IMHO) to have his talent wasted by being used as a PF on support duty. 

[samcro_001]

13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't see why would moving into channels be a problem, but okay. The theory about "occupying the same space" are more often than not just unfounded myths. 

Btw, if I remember correctly, F9 is not hard-coded to move into channels. 

I would definitely play him as an F9 in your current system. He is too good (IMHO) to have his talent wasted by being used as a PF on support duty. 

Indeed move into channels is not hardcoded in the role of the f9 I just played a game where Lutaro played as a false 9 and I can tell you he was impressive with two goals and most importantly the team all around played well. Couple of questions can I still use the roam into position instruction for my striker in order to give him more freedom. And secondly what are the scenarios to use a PF forward?

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, samcro_001 said:

Couple of questions can I still use the roam into position instruction for my striker in order to give him more freedom

Of course  

 

4 hours ago, samcro_001 said:

And secondly what are the scenarios to use a PF forward?

It really depends on the context of a tactic as a whole. So I cannot answer such a question in isolation. And that applies to any role btw. 

Speaking specifically about the 4141dm wide formation in a progressive possession style, my favorite setup involving a PF is this:

PFat

APsu                                   IWsu

CAR/BWMsu  MEZat

HB

WBat    CDde   BPDde    WBsu

Alternative option can be this:

PFat

IFsu                                   IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

WBat   CDde   BPDde   WBsu

[samcro_001]

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Of course  

 

It really depends on the context of a tactic as a whole. So I cannot answer such a question in isolation. And that applies to any role btw. 

Speaking specifically about the 4141dm wide formation in a progressive possession style, my favorite setup involving a PF is this:

PFat

APsu                                   IWsu

CAR/BWMsu  MEZat

HB

WBat    CDde   BPDde    WBsu

Alternative option can be this:

PFat

IFsu                                   IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

WBat   CDde   BPDde   WBsu

I see thanks for the input but given the way I want my team to play and also the fact that I want my Inside forward to be more offensive minded I will try to avoid using the PF role in that situation. 

Also in relation to the tactic I have posted with the striker role changing into a complete forward, deep lying forward on support or f9 what approach or change can I make when facing teams with a higher reputation away from home in order to not be open too much in the beginning of games. I don't want to be too defensive either 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, samcro_001 said:

Also in relation to the tactic I have posted with the striker role changing into a complete forward, deep lying forward on support or f9 what approach or change can I make when facing teams with a higher reputation away from home in order to not be open too much in the beginning of games. I don't want to be too defensive either 

If your primary tactic works well in general, then you should not make any big changes when playing against other strong teams, especially since your team itself is a top team as well. It's possible that you may not need to make even a single change, but in case you do - make sure it's really small and subtle. For example, DLP instead of AP. Removing counter-press and adding the counter instead. And things like that. 

[samcro_001]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

If your primary tactic works well in general, then you should not make any big changes when playing against other strong teams, especially since your team itself is a top team as well. It's possible that you may not need to make even a single change, but in case you do - make sure it's really small and subtle. For example, DLP instead of AP. Removing counter-press and adding the counter instead. And things like that. 

Thanks very much really appreciate the great inputs. I like to play as simple as possible and still enjoy the game 

[Robson 07]

13 hours ago, samcro_001 said:

Also in relation to the tactic I have posted with the striker role changing into a complete forward, deep lying forward on support or f9 what approach or change can I make when facing teams with a higher reputation away from home in order to not be open too much in the beginning of games. I don't want to be too defensive either 

 

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If your primary tactic works well in general, then you should not make any big changes when playing against other strong teams, especially since your team itself is a top team as well. It's possible that you may not need to make even a single change, but in case you do - make sure it's really small and subtle.

Disagree a bit here.

If you are a strong team, yes, a primary tactic should work most of the time.  But as you're seeing already not all the time. In your other tactical slots you should have a tactic that is creative and specific to beating stubborn defensive teams.  You should also have a tactic that is more measured for playing tough away games, in the latter stages of the Champions League for example.

Tinkering or fiddling about with the roles is only part of the process.  The tactic in the opening post doesn't really create or use space and its not the formation either.  If you are a top side, teams will play very defensively against you.  In that scenario don't push the defensive line up, use width, create space and pass into space.  Aim for constant possession.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Robson 07

[samcro_001]

On 11/10/2020 at 11:36, Experienced Defender said:

If your primary tactic works well in general, then you should not make any big changes when playing against other strong teams, especially since your team itself is a top team as well. It's possible that you may not need to make even a single change, but in case you do - make sure it's really small and subtle. For example, DLP instead of AP. Removing counter-press and adding the counter instead. And things like that. 

Need your input here, tactic is working fine but again the usual fun spoiler against teams that use the 352 formation no matter how much quality you have, tweaks you make during games they just keep possession and create little. I am really out of ideas I have reloaded multiple times putting my inside forward on support duty, my wing back changed to complete wing back, for my striker I usually juggle between f9 and deep lying forward on support. I was hoping maybe you can share your experience and approach when facing this type of teams 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, samcro_001 said:

Need your input here, tactic is working fine but again the usual fun spoiler against teams that use the 352 formation no matter how much quality you have, tweaks you make during games they just keep possession and create little. I am really out of ideas I have reloaded multiple times putting my inside forward on support duty, my wing back changed to complete wing back, for my striker I usually juggle between f9 and deep lying forward on support. I was hoping maybe you can share your experience and approach when facing this type of teams 

You don't need to change/tweak your roles and/or duties, only a couple of instructions.

For example, the 352 - or rather 5122 in this particular case (Wolves game) - is a narrow formation, which means it's inherently vulnerable on the flanks (but fairly congested in the middle). So that's the area of the opposition system you should look to exploit first via TIs (e.g. increase your attacking width or/and use an overlap instruction). You can also go with a more expansive passing style (standard instead of shorter) and/or allow your players to be more expressive. 

These are tweaks that would make sense to me.

I also strongly recommend that you watch relevant videos on Rashidi's YouTube channel, especially his live streams. because you can learn a lot about these things (how to tweak instructions depending on the opposition formation and style of play). 

[samcro_001]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You don't need to change/tweak your roles and/or duties, only a couple of instructions.

For example, the 352 - or rather 5122 in this particular case (Wolves game) - is a narrow formation, which means it's inherently vulnerable on the flanks (but fairly congested in the middle). So that's the area of the opposition system you should look to exploit first via TIs (e.g. increase your attacking width or/and use an overlap instruction). You can also go with a more expansive passing style (standard instead of shorter) and/or allow your players to be more expressive. 

These are tweaks that would make sense to me.

I also strongly recommend that you watch relevant videos on Rashidi's YouTube channel, especially his live streams. because you can learn a lot about these things (how to tweak instructions depending on the opposition formation and style of play). 

Thanks it really made a huge improvement, I started the game by increasing the attacking width, and passing to standard, possession wise we had 49% but most importantly was the quality of chances we created. 

I have one question regarding the TI Be More expressive, should it be used when the team is having possession but creating little with it based on my tactic?

 

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by samcro_001

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, samcro_001 said:

I have one question regarding the TI Be More expressive, should it be used when the team is having possession but creating little with it based on my tactic?

Yes, that's one situation when the BME can potentially be useful (which does not necessarily mean that it will).