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Are "Be more expressive" and "Be more disciplined" generally misunderstood?


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The majority of the people seem to suggest that "Be More Expressive" is the instruction you hit with good teams and "Be More Disciplined" is the instruction you hit on worse teams. Simple reasoning for that is that a better team posses more creativity while a weaker team possesses very little creativity and flair.

However, I find that reasoning to be easy to reverse - and have done so with succes in FM20. 

We all know the scenario where you're playing as a good side against a bottom team who are lining up in doom defensive formations like a 5-3-2. Formations where it seems impossible to penetrate the box. While I'm not trying to discuss team instructions that can help you dismantle this type of formation, it's good to question if against such a formation you'd like to be more expressive or more disciplined. Most people in these scenarios tend to hit be more expressive and run at defence when things go south and the ball just won't go in. However, to me that's completely counterproductive. You might get that one goal by an amazing Neymar or Messi run, or perhaps they win a penalty, but it could just be confirmation bias. If a team is defending thight, having players trying to make runs at the defense, dribble past them and look for high flair through passes will result in more loss of possession, more wasted chances and increased frustration.

Likewise it's not abnormal to ask a worse team to be more expressive. Imagine you're playing as bottom of the table Watford against number one Liverpool. Liverpool is bound to be attacking with the entire team, leaving only 2 CD's behind, often pushed up high. If you then tell your team to be more disciplined, you'll reduce the slim amount of chances you'll get even more. It could be as simple as your DM stealing a ball and despite having direct passing on, he decides to play it short, ruining the chance of a route one counter attack, simply because he was told to be more disciplined.

I guess the conclusion is that the instructions "Be More Expressive" and "Be More Disciplined" are not just measures of what type of team you are and what type of team you're facing, but more so the way in which they play. Noteworthy, the amount of space the opponent leaves. It's very much possible that a good team plays a defensive 5-3-2 against you, while a bottom team tries to play attractive 4-1-2-3, leaving much more space (which could be their own death sentence). In those cases you would likely not be playing more expressive against the good team and more disciplined against the bottom team.

Anyone who can chime in with their experiences and thoughts?

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I could be entirely wrong, but I see Expressive vs Disciplined at least in some part as a measure of how rigid a team's approach to following your instructions is going to be. It's why you often see WTIB paired with Be More Expressive as I see it. So I definitely agree with your assessment of it being another feather in the cap of style of play vs being something intrinsically linked to the quality of a team.

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35 minutes ago, FairyTailed said:

The majority of the people seem to suggest that "Be More Expressive" is the instruction you hit with good teams and "Be More Disciplined" is the instruction you hit on worse teams

@Rashidi for example tends to do the exact opposite (if I remember correctly what he said/did in some of his videos). 

My approach to BME/BMD is not rigid and does not depend on the strength or reputation of my team. Instead, I - as always - am looking to consider all relevant factors, which in this particular case include the mentality I play on and roles I use. Because if we look at the BME and BMD TIs in isolation, what we all know is that the former encourages a bit more freedom both of creativity and movement (especially in the attacking third), whereas the latter tends to discourage them. At the same time however, higher team mentalities already encourage (proportionally) more creative freedom by default compared to lower ones - and vice versa of course. And then you have roles that are hard-coded to be both more creative and more mobile by nature (e.g. mezzala, regista, RPM, TQ, CF, CWB).

So if I both play on a higher team mentality and am using a fair number of such roles, I basically don't need to turn the BME on, because that could easily lead to overkill. Likewise, if my mentality is low and most of my roles are rather ordinary (i.e. not "exotic"), then I don't need the BMD, and sometimes I may even go with the BME to "break the monotony" and encourage my players to try and do something more adventurous when they have the ball. 

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@NotSoSpecialOne

@Experienced Defender

Thank you for confirming my doubts on the unilateral approach of the instructions :thup:

I also agree with the idea of WBIB and Expressive to offset one another as NotSoSpecialOne said - I believe I've read Experienced Defender talk about the same thing before.

And considering this part: 

Quote

And sometimes I may even go with the BME to "break the monotony" and encourage my players to try and do something more adventurous when they have the ball. 

I also think this speaks for the point of watching what your team does regardless of your instructions. Say you have BME on and for the past games your Mezzala and IF have always made insane dribbles into the final third and won you games. Suddenly, despite making no changes and facing a familiar setup, they fail every run and start taking bad long shots (bad game, good DM's or defenders on the opposing part), it might actually be reasonable to tick WBIB or tick BME off or even BMD on. Despite how on first sight BMD seems counterproductive to what you want to achieve. Likewise you could just tell the individual players to dribble less.

Anyway, wonky explanation to agree/confirm that watching what your team does and react to that is the most important thing. Sometimes player performances can force a TI or PI change despite the playing field being arguably similar to before.

Edited by FairyTailed
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Like any setting in the game, I don't think the reputation of your team affects what instructions you can/should use.

My "rule of thumb" is: 

  1. Be More Expressive if I have a lot of smart + creative players who I can trust with more freedom.  This tends to be in more possession systems as those are the right type of players for that style. 
  2. Be More Disciplined if I have specialized players who aren't good at making correct choices. This is so they stick more to the job I give them since they are likely to fail if they try something different and I can't trust them to make the correct choice.  Typically more fast attack / counter / transitional style where its more about the physicals and doing the action well rather than variety.

To answer you question, this probably correlates with managers thinking if your a small club you can't play possession football and have to play counter, which is not true.

Edited by summatsupeer
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49 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Like any setting in the game, I don't think the reputation of your team affects what instructions you can/should use.

My "rule of thumb" is: 

  1. Be More Expressive if I have a lot of smart + creative players who I can trust with more freedom.  This tends to be in more possession systems as those are the right type of players for that style. 
  2. Be More Disciplined if I have specialized players who aren't good at making correct choices. This is so they stick more to the job I give them since they are likely to fail if they try something different and I can't trust them to make the correct choice.  Typically more fast attack / counter / transitional style where its more about the physicals and doing the action well rather than variety.

To answer you question, this probably correlates with managers thinking if your a small club you can't play possession football and have to play counter, which is not true.

Actually, your rule of thumb is exactly the matter in question which I disagree with. BME is not an instruction exclusively for teams with lots of possibilities in creative freedom and BMD is not an instruction exclusively for poor creating teams.

You just shifted the argument from type of team to the type of players, but the point is the same. This notion is short sighted imo and the people above seem to agree.

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I have always used this contextually- if chasing a game and needing a goal, I tend to turn it on in hopes of producing a little magic to save the day. If I am defending a narrow lead late, I might use it to help lower risk. There are other context where it those can be used to, but that is the thing with FM. It is always contextual when it comes to tactics and in-game decisions. If the choices are clearly not working, off they go.

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15 minutes ago, FairyTailed said:

Actually, your rule of thumb is exactly the matter in question which I disagree with. BME is not an instruction exclusively for teams with lots of possibilities in creative freedom and BMD is not an instruction exclusively for poor creating teams.

You just shifted the argument from type of team to the type of players, but the point is the same. This notion is short sighted imo and the people above seem to agree.

Please don't change my words, I in no way said "poor creating teams".  If your claiming my point 2 means "poor creating teams" your very wrong.

I don't agree with your theory that BMD would make a player told to direct pass, less likely to direct pass.  You make it sound like BMD is "take less risks" which it isn't, its more "stick to your job" hence depends what job they're given. 

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1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

Please don't change my words, I in no way said "poor creating teams".  If your claiming my point 2 means "poor creating teams" your very wrong.

I don't agree with your theory that BMD would make a player told to direct pass, less likely to direct pass.  You make it sound like BMD is "take less risks" which it isn't, its more "stick to your job" hence depends what job they're given. 

Hey, that's a pretty ironic statement, because I never said that either! A part of creative vision comes with flair and the ability to play long range balls and through balls - hence high flair is required to teach play killer balls as a trait for example. That's where my example comes from and it's just that, an example. If you wish, move it to this example: you have 2 man forward on a counter-attack. Instead of giving a play through pass to the free man, the player could opt to end the run and shoot themself even though they are in a disadvantaged position marking wise.

Anyway, this is arguing besides the point. You acknowledge BME as instruction for teams who have a lot of ability to create and who you can trust with more freedom while you appoint BMD to the opposite. As I said, I reject that notion and I stated in the starting post why. It's not as simple as: I have creative players so I tell them to be creative. There are multiple instances in which you'd want such a team to play disciplined.

These instructions take more into account that just the creativity and decision making of the players. It takes into account your formation, your opponent's formation, your player attributes, your roles and duties and the list goes on. Key examples are above. Unless you have Messi or Neymar in your time, playing more expressive against a team stacking the defensive 5-3-2 is going to be miserable.

This is exactly why I questioned the title in this way, as most people seem to think of it too unilaterally.

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1 hour ago, FairyTailed said:

high flair is required to teach play killer balls as a trait for example

It is more about vision than flair. Decisions also matter more than flair when it comes to killer balls. Which of course does not mean that flair cannot be useful as well. It certainly can, especially when you want to add a bit of unpredictability. 

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1 hour ago, FairyTailed said:

Hey, that's a pretty ironic statement, because I never said that either!

"If you then tell your team to be more disciplined, you'll reduce the slim amount of chances you'll get even more. It could be as simple as your DM stealing a ball and despite having direct passing on, he decides to play it short, ruining the chance of a route one counter attack, simply because he was told to be more disciplined."

I think "I don't agree with your theory that BMD would make a player told to direct pass, less likely to direct pass." is an accurate paraphrasing.

It would be ironic if I didn't put "you make it sound like" before saying what your statement read like to me.

Quote

A part of creative vision comes with flair and the ability to play long range balls and through balls - hence high flair is required to teach play killer balls as a trait for example. That's where my example comes from and it's just that, an example. If you wish, move it to this example: you have 2 man forward on a counter-attack. Instead of giving a play through pass to the free man, the player could opt to end the run and shoot themself even though they are in a disadvantaged position marking wise.

I don't see how this relates back to BME/BMD?  That modifies Creative Freedom and Roaming, it doesn't make players have less flair/vision etc.  

Bad example since if its a counter attack, all the settings (risk, freedom etc) are maxed so doesn't matter about BMD/BME.  Assuming its just a normal attack, you also assuming they will use that extra freedom to correctly decide to do that right action.  That extra freedom could be used for them to decide to Shoot From Distance instead.  Which relates to my "rule of thumb" regarding players need to be smart to use that extra freedom to use it at the right time.

Quote

Anyway, this is arguing besides the point. You acknowledge BME as instruction for teams who have a lot of ability to create and who you can trust with more freedom while you appoint BMD to the opposite. As I said, I reject that notion and I stated in the starting post why. It's not as simple as: I have creative players so I tell them to be creative. There are multiple instances in which you'd want such a team to play disciplined.

These instructions take more into account that just the creativity and decision making of the players. It takes into account your formation, your opponent's formation, your player attributes, your roles and duties and the list goes on. Key examples are above. Unless you have Messi or Neymar in your time, playing more expressive against a team stacking the defensive 5-3-2 is going to be miserable.

This is exactly why I questioned the title in this way, as most people seem to think of it too unilaterally.

No I still don't agree with the term "ability to create".  Players with just good physicals and dribbling can "create".  If he's a specialist so can't do other things effectively, i'd probably not want to give him more freedom, just stick to what he's good at so he doesn't waste the ball trying something he's bad at or roaming into other areas where he can't play to his strengths.

The main thing i'm trying to point out is there's potential downsides of either BME/BMD.  Giving them more freedom doesn't mean they'll use it well, it could lead to a bad choice thats less effective than if they'd followed the tactic you set.  More options due to extra creative freedom doesn't mean more chance creation.

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10 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

"If you then tell your team to be more disciplined, you'll reduce the slim amount of chances you'll get even more. It could be as simple as your DM stealing a ball and despite having direct passing on, he decides to play it short, ruining the chance of a route one counter attack, simply because he was told to be more disciplined."

I think "I don't agree with your theory that BMD would make a player told to direct pass, less likely to direct pass." is an accurate paraphrasing.

It would be ironic if I didn't put "you make it sound like" before saying what your statement read like to me.

No, it's terrible paraphrasing. A player decides what type of pass they make not only on their role, their individual and team mentality and the directness of passing. At a moment they look to pass the ball they take into account their passing, technique, vision, flair and most importantly decisions. This is where the BME/BMD can affect this. It can affect the decision your player makes and thus potentially result in a type of pass you might not have wanted.

Your logic is not sound. You could make the same argument about how being more expressive can cause a player to undertake a type of solo dribble and then say: "How is this related? You could tell the player to dribble more, you could tell the team to run at defense! Maybe he likes to beat man repeatedly?!" Everything ties in together.

 

10 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I don't see how this relates back to BME/BMD?  That modifies Creative Freedom and Roaming, it doesn't make players have less flair/vision etc.  

It changes how much flair and vision a player will use in his decision making. You know, if you don't believe me, you can just read the ingame description?

image.png.add92d00f0727137d9ff7119e62318d3.png

 

10 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

No I still don't agree with the term "ability to create".  Players with just good physicals and dribbling can "create".  If he's a specialist so can't do other things effectively, i'd probably not want to give him more freedom, just stick to what he's good at so he doesn't waste the ball trying something he's bad at or roaming into other areas where he can't play to his strengths.

The main thing i'm trying to point out is there's potential downsides of either BME/BMD.  Giving them more freedom doesn't mean they'll use it well, it could lead to a bad choice thats less effective than if they'd followed the tactic you set.  More options due to extra creative freedom doesn't mean more chance creation.

Yes, let's turn it into a semantic argument. Anyway use "smart + creative" players instead of "ability to create" then if you would so much prefer to stick to you own arguing, point stands.

Moreover about the last part, you did not discuss downsides at all in your first post. It's what I've been doing in this thread throughout, though.

I don't understand why you find the need to get off-topic, semantic and passive-aggressively nitpicky in your statements just because I disagree with your rule of thumb because I find it to be short sighted. If you want to convince people otherwise, just reason why so. If you read through the comments, most people follow a lead that goes against your rule of thumb.

 

Edited by FairyTailed
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I suggest everyone read the following three short posts in order.  They're a little old now and things have progressed, but as a guide to give you an overview of what essentially happens they're a great starting point.

First concerning Be More Expressive / Be More Disciplined:

And then to understand better about Creative Freedom:

And finally a bit more detail about Creative Freedom and Flair:

 

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@FairyTailed As a mod in this forum, I have to warn you that I'll have no choice but to lock this thread if you and @summatsupeer do not stop the argument immediately before it completely spins out of control. 

You can have different views on any subject, but the discussion must be kept in a polite and civilized manner. Feel free to disagree, but with due respect, both for a different opinion and a person expressing it. Otherwise, the topic will be permanently locked.

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On 28/09/2020 at 08:49, summatsupeer said:

 

  1. Be More Expressive if I have a lot of smart + creative players who I can trust with more freedom.  This tends to be in more possession systems as those are the right type of players for that style. 
  2. Be More Disciplined if I have specialized players who aren't good at making correct choices. This is so they stick more to the job I give them since they are likely to fail if they try something different and I can't trust them to make the correct choice.  Typically more fast attack / counter / transitional style where its more about the physicals and doing the action well rather than variety.

I think it's important to highlight which attributes make a player smart when it comes to Be More Expressive. For me those are: vision, flair, decision and anticipation. Maybe even composure. 

If I remember correctly, in FM19 the Tiki-Taka preset style had Be More Expressive selected by default. In FM20 that is no longer the case though. It's not part of the style by default, which is interesting. I wish someone from SI can provide explanation why certain instructions are part of each preset style.

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For me this reflects one of the areas I either find more frustrating or better in fm20 (depending on my mood and, yes, my recent results :p) . The greater diversity of both player and AI approaches made possible by the tactical creator means that it is often very hard to tell precisely what an instruction will do when you click it. 

More than ever there are always so many unknown variables on the go that isolating the impact of any one thing is very difficult. Experienced posters can give us something of a clue of the general impact, but you need to be able to closely read the match engine in your games to have much of a clue of precisely what instruction is needed at that moment and precisely why your tactic is failing against that precise opponent. 

And maybe in one particular instance the effect is people wandering into cul de sacs, no one in an effective position and your midfielder deciding to shank it from 30 yards into the top tier of the stand despite being told to work into box. Maybe in another it's your striker unpredictably moving into an effective position to drag away the opposition centre back, play a successful risky pass that he might otherwise not have tried at his mentality, and then an onrunning attacking midfielder slots it home and wow you're a tactical genius. 

I've had to move over to comprehensive highlights to give myself more opportunities to spot patterns in the general impact of a change I've made, on extended it always felt that my tactical changes were little more than astrology and fallacious associations based on something working once. 

Edited by Blünderbossu
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20 hours ago, yonko said:

I think it's important to highlight which attributes make a player smart when it comes to Be More Expressive. For me those are: vision, flair, decision and anticipation. Maybe even composure. 

When I say "creative" its the attributes that go into seeing what options are available.  "smart" are the attributes that then select one of those available options.  Traits and the tactic (mentality, instructions etc) will play a big part in what option is selected with Creative Freedom allowing the player to deviate from the tactic more often.

Assuming the player has the ball:

  • Smart: Composure, Decisions, Teamwork
  • Creative: Anticipation, Flair, Vision

As an example a player with good "creative" attributes might see a through ball opportunity but he might not pick it depending on how "smart" he is. Whilst a player who is "smart" but isn't "creative" might only see simpler options but will tend to pick a good option out of what he see's. 

Be More Expressive also allows roaming and freedom that way, so other attributes like Off The Ball, Work Rate and Stamina to keep moving around to make themselves available but then to get back into defensive position and/or counter press since they could be further away from where they would be normally.

Quote

If I remember correctly, in FM19 the Tiki-Taka preset style had Be More Expressive selected by default. In FM20 that is no longer the case though. It's not part of the style by default, which is interesting. I wish someone from SI can provide explanation why certain instructions are part of each preset style.

Peps known for being rigid in buildup but then allowing players freedom once they get into final third, the question is does that mean Be More Expressive is needed? The forwards don't tend to Roam which Be More Expressive also adds.  The tactic mentality is Positive and I THINK that means they will get a bit more creative freedom than Balanced mentality gives.  Vertical Tiki-Taka uses Balanced so maybe thats why one has it and the other doesn't?  They will never be perfect replications since mangers tweak or use multiple tactics, even if we had more options in the game engine.

Edited by summatsupeer
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23 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

When I say "creative" its the attributes that go into seeing what options are available.  "smart" are the attributes that then select one of those available options.  Traits and the tactic (mentality, instructions etc) will play a big part in what option is selected with Creative Freedom allowing the player to deviate from the tactic more often.

Assuming the player has the ball:

  • Smart: Composure, Decisions, Teamwork
  • Creative: Anticipation, Flair, Vision

As an example a player with good "creative" attributes might see a through ball opportunity but he might not pick it depending on how "smart" he is. Whilst a player who is "smart" but isn't "creative" might only see simpler options but will tend to pick a good option out of what he see's. 

Be More Expressive also allows roaming and freedom that way, so other attributes like Off The Ball, Work Rate and Stamina to keep moving around to make themselves available but then to get back into defensive position and/or counter press since they could be further away from where they would be normally.

Peps known for being rigid in buildup but then allowing players freedom once they get into final third, the question is does that mean Be More Expressive is needed? The forwards don't tend to Roam which Be More Expressive also adds.  The tactic mentality is Positive and I THINK that means they will get a bit more creative freedom than Balanced mentality gives.  Vertical Tiki-Taka uses Balanced so maybe thats why one has it and the other doesn't?  They will never be perfect replications since mangers tweak or use multiple tactics, even if we had more options in the game engine.

Is it officially confirmed that Team Mentality affects creative freedom since the change of the TC in FM19 /FM20? I think that was the case in prior FMs where we had Creative Freedom as separate. 

 

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I use BME or BMD in some cases.

When I'm managing a lower league team with not so many creative players; With BME, I tell them "I know you don't have the guts but, give it all and have fun."

I occasionally use BMD to counter my team's creativity on a higher mentality with many talented players; if I see a lot of mistakes in a match. In the opposite situation; when I'm playing against a stronger side with a weaker team, If I choose a lower mentality I sometimes use BME to increase the chance of exploiting space. In both scenarios I only use this TI in a match.

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If im using a tactic/formation that is quite open vs a good side i would play disciplined, If im using a tactic/formation that is a little conservative vs a team im expected to beat well i would play more expressive. Depends on how much you think the opposition will punish any mistakes or if that extra freedom is needed vs a team with little threat.

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