[3-5-2] - not converting chances & unable to have possession - please help

[karanhsingh]

Sorry for opening another thread, but I am literally at my wits end and just do not know what to do. Firstly, here is my current tactical set-up.

A little bit of background. It is season 3 for me at Aston Villa. We have been doing very well with consecutive 4th place finishes. In the second season when teams started going defensive against me, I changed my passing to shorter, added play out of defense, and also upped the LOE & DL along with offside trap & tighter marking in order to dominate the matches more. That seemed to help when we had a mini slump in Season 2. 

Now in season 3 I have hit a slump and I am honestly at a complete loss as to what to do. In the summer I had improved the team by bringing in two genuinely world class players in Havertz & Tah so was expecting an improvement. Sadly, things seem to have gone the other way. Let me summarize my key issues for you.

1. We are just unable to get more than 45% possession. Every team, no matter what formation they are playing even in a 442, seems to be able to easily dominate the ball against us. I have read through the two long threads on this issue. I have tried the following - getting my strikers to man-mark the opposition CBs. In the OI, I set their CBs & CMs to always press, tight marking, etc. Have tried to further up the LOE & pressing to max. Nothing seems to make a difference. 

In my last 2 games I changed passing to extremely short (the maximum), dropped tempo to lower, added work ball into box, removed counter, upped closing down to max. Then I finally got 55% possession against a fairly rubbish Burnley side at home. Is this the extreme one has to go to? Surely there must be another way.

2. Conversion has become a huge issue for us. In season 1 we used to win a lot of even games by taking our chances. Now it feels like we need to out-shoot the opposition 5 to 1 to even have a chance. My last game against Bournemouth we had 25 shots and 19 on target, did not score a goal. They had 5 shots and scored 2. I checked the league stats, as I anticipated we are dead last for conversion rate at 6%. Table topping Man Utd are at 14% by comparison. 

Over the last couple of years my players have only improved through training & transfers. I am unable to understand why much better players are having such a hard time just putting the ball into the back of the net. Is there anything that can be done tactically about this?

3. Set pieces used to be a big part of our success, but that has also got progressively worse. In Year 1 my estimate is that we scored around 30+ goals from set pieces, in year 2 that went to about 20, and now we are pretty much bottom of the league on every count. Meanwhile, opposition set pieces have suddenly become an issue with probably 50% of our goals conceded resulting from these. In open play, we are actually very solid.

I typically use a near post corner kick routine (has served me well in all saves) and long throw-ins. We still get a lot of shots away from these, but somehow again just cannot find the net. I don't even know if there is any "solution" for this, but thought I would ask.

Apologies for the long post, and I would welcome any and all feedback. I know that my team should be doing a lot better than we are, and I am determined to turn things around.

[denen123]

The 3-5-2, especially one that (a.) Does not utilize wide players (b.)Has too many players deep, is not designed for high pressing possession systems.

I am assuming this thread will eventually get closed because you wrote it before in another one, but before that, try other formations. Please.

[herne79]

Genuinely interested - which two long threads about possession have you been reading which suggested you set up in that manner (I'm not talking about the formation)?

[karanhsingh]

8 minutes ago, denen123 said:

The 3-5-2, especially one that (a.) Does not utilize wide players (b.)Has too many players deep, is not designed for high pressing possession systems.

I am assuming this thread will eventually get closed because you wrote it before in another one, but before that, try other formations. Please.

Yes I made a post in another thread which is when @Experienced Defender suggested I open a fresh thread. I held off but results got worse so here I am 

I could go back to the trusted 4-3-3 shape which I have used on other saves but I really want to make the 352 work and I know it must be possible! 

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Genuinely interested - which two long threads about possession have you been reading which suggested you set up in that manner (I'm not talking about the formation)?

This https://community.sigames.com/topic/527522-ever-seen-a-team-irl-parking-the-bus-away-from-home-and-constantly-having-65-of-possession-and-playing-tiki-taka-like-prime-barcelona/ 

and this https://community.sigames.com/topic/526704-dealing-with-those-pesky-defensive-possession-heavy-sides/ 

[denen123]

I assumed you wanted a possession set-up or fix. Didn't know it was specific to the 3-5-2. I can't help. Sorry. Think others can work it out. I have seen it get done. Just think it suffers, eventually. Watch closely.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

 

3 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

We are just unable to get more than 45% possession

Well, your setup of roles and duties does not look possession-friendly, to begin with. If having more possession is your tactical objective, then you first need to reconsider roles and duties. In fact, only the striker partnership looks good in terms of role combo, but everything else is fairly problematic.

On top of that, I already told you in your earlier thread that if you want to use a libero, then you should not employ another playmaker in front of him - but you obviously don't want to listen to advice, even though you yourself have been asking for it.

And even if you insist on having another PM, AP on attack duty still does not make much sense in a possession-oriented tactic. And you also don't need 2 BPDs alongside a libero. I mean, what's the point of a libero if you surround him with roles expected to perform basically similar kinds of tasks. Do not use (exotic) roles only for the sake of using them. 

[warlock]

I can feel your pain, but from your career thread you're currently sitting 3pts off the league leaders. Maybe you don't have a tactic problem, maybe you have an expectations problem 

As for tactics advice I think the midfield trio with CWB-att roles looks problematical. I'd want someone in CM to sit and break up play/recycle possession and I'm not sure a CAR and B2B do that.

As for TIs, I have no idea whether this is true in FM terms but I don't see how players can mark tightly AND close down aggressively. Logically, they can only do one or the other.

Hope you figure it out 

[herne79]

3 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

This https://community.sigames.com/topic/527522-ever-seen-a-team-irl-parking-the-bus-away-from-home-and-constantly-having-65-of-possession-and-playing-tiki-taka-like-prime-barcelona/ 

and this https://community.sigames.com/topic/526704-dealing-with-those-pesky-defensive-possession-heavy-sides/ 

Honestly you should re-read those then - or better yet go back to the original possession threads started by Cleon (here) and continued by me (here and here).

None of those threads (or the ones you linked) suggest using so many attack duty players in combination with your chosen mentality if you aim to keep possession.  Nor do they suggest using 2 x BPDs along side a Libero; 2 extremely attacking wingbacks; any OIs whatsoever; or a midfield which may not be the best at providing defensive cover.

Even if you leave your midfield alone, re-think your 5 defenders (you essentially only have 3 players trying to defend at the moment) because they're really not helping you keep the ball.

[xavierm]

il y a une heure, Experienced Defender a dit :

 

Well, your setup of roles and duties does not look possession-friendly, to begin with. If having more possession is your tactical objective, then you first need to reconsider roles and duties. In fact, only the striker partnership looks good in terms of role combo, but everything else is fairly problematic.

On top of that, I already told you in your earlier thread that if you want to use a libero, then you should not employ another playmaker in front of him - but you obviously don't want to listen to advice, even though you yourself have been asking for it.

And even if you insist on having another PM, AP on attack duty still does not make much sense in a possession-oriented tactic. And you also don't need 2 BPDs alongside a libero. I mean, what's the point of a libero if you surround him with roles expected to perform basically similar kinds of tasks. Do not use (exotic) roles only for the sake of using them. 

I quite perfectly agree with everything you said here but for the AP part. I've been using for three seasons now a 3-5-2 system with a Libero(At) and an AP(At) and I'm finally quite happy with it and I'm having good possession stats (avg 58/59%). To me, an AP(At) in the midfield strata is not much of a problem in a possession system.

I have been quite happy, possession and conversion rate-wise, with a setup with 2 WB(Auto), 2 DC(S), 1 Lib(At), 1 BWM/CAR/BBM(s), 1 AP(At), 1 Mez(s) and the F9/AF(A) in the front, on Positive mentality.

TI : Play out of Defense, WBIB (occasionnaly)

Split block for pressing, High LOE, Very High DLine

Edited September 25, 2020 by xavierm

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, xavierm said:

I quite perfectly agree with everything you said here but for the AP part. I've been using for three seasons now a 3-5-2 system with a Libero(At) and an AP(At) and I'm finally quite happy with it and I'm having good possession stats (avg 58/59%). To me, an AP(At) in the midfield strata is not much of a problem in a possession system.

I have been quite happy, possession and conversion rate-wise, with a setup with 2 WB(Auto), 2 DC(S), 1 Lib(At), 1 BWM/CAR/BBM(s), 1 AP(At), 1 Mez(s) and the F9/AF(A) in the front, on Positive mentality.

TI : Play out of Defense, WBIB (occasionnaly)

Split block for pressing, High LOE, Very High DLine

I am glad it works for you. Maybe the OP should try your tactic 

[karanhsingh]

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, your setup of roles and duties does not look possession-friendly, to begin with. If having more possession is your tactical objective, then you first need to reconsider roles and duties. In fact, only the striker partnership looks good in terms of role combo, but everything else is fairly problematic.

On top of that, I already told you in your earlier thread that if you want to use a libero, then you should not employ another playmaker in front of him - but you obviously don't want to listen to advice, even though you yourself have been asking for it.

And even if you insist on having another PM, AP on attack duty still does not make much sense in a possession-oriented tactic. And you also don't need 2 BPDs alongside a libero. I mean, what's the point of a libero if you surround him with roles expected to perform basically similar kinds of tasks. Do not use (exotic) roles only for the sake of using them. 

Thanks for your note - after considering your feedback I had removed the DLP from my tactic. My logic is that a Libero on support and an AP on attack should not get in each other's way, there should be enough distance between the two. Also so far the AP(a) who is Grealish has been my best player and also the only one in midfield who is consistently running with the ball and breaking through the lines which is what I want to see.

I see your point about the BPDs and am going to try them as CBs instead. The players I have are most suited to BPD (full green circle) which is why I was playing them like that, I didn't realize that it actually makes us less possession friendly, by encouraging them to play more long balls. That to me is counter intuitive but I suppose is how the role functions in the game.

Do you have any feedback on the TIs? And on my second problem of chance conversion?

[karanhsingh]

18 hours ago, warlock said:

I can feel your pain, but from your career thread you're currently sitting 3pts off the league leaders. Maybe you don't have a tactic problem, maybe you have an expectations problem 

As for tactics advice I think the midfield trio with CWB-att roles looks problematical. I'd want someone in CM to sit and break up play/recycle possession and I'm not sure a CAR and B2B do that.

As for TIs, I have no idea whether this is true in FM terms but I don't see how players can mark tightly AND close down aggressively. Logically, they can only do one or the other.

Hope you figure it out 

Haha yes I might have an expectations problem  but I tend to get impatient if we are not constantly improving. 

I think I am going to put one of the wing-backs on support and see how that works out, maybe the one alongside the BBM.

[karanhsingh]

18 hours ago, herne79 said:

Honestly you should re-read those then - or better yet go back to the original possession threads started by Cleon (here) and continued by me (here and here).

None of those threads (or the ones you linked) suggest using so many attack duty players in combination with your chosen mentality if you aim to keep possession.  Nor do they suggest using 2 x BPDs along side a Libero; 2 extremely attacking wingbacks; any OIs whatsoever; or a midfield which may not be the best at providing defensive cover.

Even if you leave your midfield alone, re-think your 5 defenders (you essentially only have 3 players trying to defend at the moment) because they're really not helping you keep the ball.

Thanks, I am doing that. Dropping the BPDs and putting one of the WBs on support. Hopefully that makes a difference.

The OIs were to ensure we are pressing the deep midfielders of the opposition who just tend to recycle the ball, I don't see what the problem with that is?

[karanhsingh]

17 hours ago, xavierm said:

I quite perfectly agree with everything you said here but for the AP part. I've been using for three seasons now a 3-5-2 system with a Libero(At) and an AP(At) and I'm finally quite happy with it and I'm having good possession stats (avg 58/59%). To me, an AP(At) in the midfield strata is not much of a problem in a possession system.

I have been quite happy, possession and conversion rate-wise, with a setup with 2 WB(Auto), 2 DC(S), 1 Lib(At), 1 BWM/CAR/BBM(s), 1 AP(At), 1 Mez(s) and the F9/AF(A) in the front, on Positive mentality.

TI : Play out of Defense, WBIB (occasionnaly)

Split block for pressing, High LOE, Very High DLine

Interesting, pretty similar to my set-up. So for you the more defensive midfielder is the central one of the 3? 

Any other TIs? Did you leave passing the tempo in the middle? I am quite surprised you have high possession stats if that is the case.

How is high LOE and very high D-line split block? I thought it would be the opposite - a higher LOE and lower D-Line.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

Thanks, I am doing that. Dropping the BPDs and putting one of the WBs on support. Hopefully that makes a difference.

Why just one, not both?  Positive Mentality + attack duty + (probably) a player with the get forward often Trait = great in attack but rubbish in defence and keeping possession.  You need a great player and a decent set up around him to pull that off.  However, Positive Mentality + support (or even defend) duty + that Trait = still good in attack but better in defence and keeping possession.  Even without that Trait the same essentially applies.

Using an attack duty is simply not necessary when you consider this combination of tactical settings and player used.  Can you?  Yes.  Do you need to?  No.

2 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

The OIs were to ensure we are pressing the deep midfielders of the opposition who just tend to recycle the ball, I don't see what the problem with that is?

 

On 25/09/2020 at 07:24, karanhsingh said:

getting my strikers to man-mark the opposition CBs. In the OI, I set their CBs & CMs to always press, tight marking, etc

You said you are using marking and pressing.  Do one or the other, not both.  "Dave, Fred, I want you both to stick closely to your central defenders, but when one of you cocks up your marking (because you strikers aren't very good at marking are you) and one of them gets the ball, both of you close him down so that you can leave the other CD free to now receive a pass from the guy you're both pressing".  "Erm ok boss, whatever you say".

Alternatively..."Dave, Fred, I want you both pressing the CD with the ball asap, but one of you needs to be in two places at the same time so that you can mark the other free CD to prevent the pass, using your rubbish marking skills"  "Erm ok boss, whatever you say".

Using OIs is something that many people use, however I never recommend using them as 1) if your system is set up right you simply don't need them and 2) if your system is set up right OIs can mess it up.  Use them by all means, but use them sparingly, target them very specifically and understand what they do.

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

My logic is that a Libero on support and an AP on attack should not get in each other's way, there should be enough distance between the two. Also so far the AP(a) who is Grealish has been my best player and also the only one in midfield who is consistently running with the ball and breaking through the lines which is what I want to see.

I see your point about the BPDs and am going to try them as CBs instead. The players I have are most suited to BPD (full green circle) which is why I was playing them like that, I didn't realize that it actually makes us less possession friendly, by encouraging them to play more long balls. That to me is counter intuitive but I suppose is how the role functions in the game.

Do you have any feedback on the TIs?

If you still want to play possession-based football, then you need to further sort out roles and duties before moving to the Tis. Switching BPDs to standard CBs is a step in the right direction, but is not enough. 

On top of that, I fear that your very formation (532) is not optimally suited for a possession-oriented style, especially in the defensive phase of play. If you want a possession style while using a narrow 3/5-men back-line, then the 5212 would be a better and more logical option. 

[Draktor]

@karanhsingh I believe you've got some good advice in this thread already but I will just add my 2cents with a few tidbits.

1. You should look at the quality of your chances rather than the number, unfortunately the in game stats don't take that into account. Try searching for the SIBOT method by @Rashidi on his Bustthenet channel, that should help you.
2. If you want to have a possession team or even to create better chances I would analyse your players, such as your three CMs & two wing backs. What do their Off the ball / first touch / vision / passing / composure / decisions stats look like? If you want to keep possession and cut the opposition open you're going to need players with those stats, if the average of those 5 players isn't high, say only hovering around 13 (league average) then how will you manage that? You'd need your 3 CMs constantly looking for space (off the ball) and then having the ability to take a good touch (first touch), locate & find the right person while under pressure (vision, passing, composure & decisions).

[karanhsingh]

On 26/09/2020 at 13:00, herne79 said:

Why just one, not both?  Positive Mentality + attack duty + (probably) a player with the get forward often Trait = great in attack but rubbish in defence and keeping possession.  You need a great player and a decent set up around him to pull that off.  However, Positive Mentality + support (or even defend) duty + that Trait = still good in attack but better in defence and keeping possession.  Even without that Trait the same essentially applies.

Using an attack duty is simply not necessary when you consider this combination of tactical settings and player used.  Can you?  Yes.  Do you need to?  No.

You said you are using marking and pressing.  Do one or the other, not both.  "Dave, Fred, I want you both to stick closely to your central defenders, but when one of you cocks up your marking (because you strikers aren't very good at marking are you) and one of them gets the ball, both of you close him down so that you can leave the other CD free to now receive a pass from the guy you're both pressing".  "Erm ok boss, whatever you say".

Alternatively..."Dave, Fred, I want you both pressing the CD with the ball asap, but one of you needs to be in two places at the same time so that you can mark the other free CD to prevent the pass, using your rubbish marking skills"  "Erm ok boss, whatever you say".

Using OIs is something that many people use, however I never recommend using them as 1) if your system is set up right you simply don't need them and 2) if your system is set up right OIs can mess it up.  Use them by all means, but use them sparingly, target them very specifically and understand what they do.

Been playing both WBs on support now, seems to have made a bit of a difference.

I would love to not use OIs as well but I just didn't know what else to do beyond maxing out closing down + high DL + high LOE. 

My average possession is up to between 45-50% now which is certainly an improvement from earlier, but we still get games where the AI is just knocking the ball back & forth between their midfielders & defenders to no end.

[karanhsingh]

On 26/09/2020 at 16:18, Experienced Defender said:

If you still want to play possession-based football, then you need to further sort out roles and duties before moving to the Tis. Switching BPDs to standard CBs is a step in the right direction, but is not enough. 

On top of that, I fear that your very formation (532) is not optimally suited for a possession-oriented style, especially in the defensive phase of play. If you want a possession style while using a narrow 3/5-men back-line, then the 5212 would be a better and more logical option. 

Having watched a few more games in comprehensive highlights, I agree with you. Playing a 5-3-2, far too much space is afforded to the opposition full-backs and I find that is where the weakness lies. By the time someone from my team goes to close them down, they just keep on knocking the ball to each other. 

I tried one game with a 5-2-3 instead (Wolves/ Nuno type formation) and immediately the 3 in midfield for the AI (playing a 433) kept passing the ball between each other. Essentially due to having one extra central defender, we are giving up superiority either in the wide areas or in the middle. 

When you say a 5-2-1-2 what exactly do you mean? Is it with an AMC - because that was my first attempt but completely failed even though the AM (Grealish) was my best player. No matter what the formation in FM I have always found it very hard to get the AM role working consistently, and indeed heavily involved in game-play.

[karanhsingh]

On 27/09/2020 at 07:55, Draktor said:

@karanhsingh I believe you've got some good advice in this thread already but I will just add my 2cents with a few tidbits.

1. You should look at the quality of your chances rather than the number, unfortunately the in game stats don't take that into account. Try searching for the SIBOT method by @Rashidi on his Bustthenet channel, that should help you.
2. If you want to have a possession team or even to create better chances I would analyse your players, such as your three CMs & two wing backs. What do their Off the ball / first touch / vision / passing / composure / decisions stats look like? If you want to keep possession and cut the opposition open you're going to need players with those stats, if the average of those 5 players isn't high, say only hovering around 13 (league average) then how will you manage that? You'd need your 3 CMs constantly looking for space (off the ball) and then having the ability to take a good touch (first touch), locate & find the right person while under pressure (vision, passing, composure & decisions).

Thanks, it makes sense and I will have a look. 

Maybe you're right and I need one more play-maker type in the midfield, even if I don't play him as a play-maker. Currently it's usually Grealish and 2 more box to box type players such as McGinn, Douglas Luiz or McTominay.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

When you say a 5-2-1-2 what exactly do you mean? Is it with an AMC

Yes  

 

2 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

because that was my first attempt but completely failed even though the AM (Grealish) was my best player. No matter what the formation in FM I have always found it very hard to get the AM role working consistently, and indeed heavily involved in game-play

AMC, like any other position, will work as long as:

- the role logically fits into the setup as a whole (as opposed to being picked in isolation);

- and the role is played by a suitable player

And given that Grealish is good enough to play any AMC role, I would assume the problem was neither him as a player nor the AMC as a position but how you designed the tactic overall. 

[karanhsingh]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yes  

AMC, like any other position, will work as long as:

- the role logically fits into the setup as a whole (as opposed to being picked in isolation);

- and the role is played by a suitable player

And given that Grealish is good enough to play any AMC role, I would assume the problem was neither him as a player nor the AMC as a position but how you designed the tactic overall. 

Fair enough, but not really interested in trying that shape again. Thanks for your feedback.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

My average possession is up to between 45-50% now which is certainly an improvement from earlier, but we still get games where the AI is just knocking the ball back & forth between their midfielders & defenders to no end

Then you may want to consider switching to the 4231. Because with a top-heavy system, you can put pressure on the opposition more effectively and prevent them from playing that "endless defensive tiki-taka" in their own half. And 4231 is better suited for possession football than 424, which is another very top-heavy system. 

[karanhsingh]

Happy to report that I won the league with Aston Villa using this tactic - a lot of the feedback & comments on this thread helped to tweak it and make it way more balanced + possession friendly. This is what I eventually landed up with.

A few of the final results that carried us over the line.

Thanks for the help fellas!