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Football love and FM vs Realism  

201 members have voted

  1. 1. What makes you love football? 3 choices.

  2. 2. What do you think Football manager game is missing the most when compared to real football? 3 choices.

    • Atmosphere.
    • Mistakes (Miss placed passes, shots. Bad touches etc.).
    • Player movement.
    • Ball physics.
    • Player fatigue.
    • Animations showing individual skill differences between players.

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  • Poll closed on 09/11/20 at 14:00

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Cant see how mistakes would be an option . Everyone makes mistakes even the best players in the world make mistakes . They are not robots that follow your every command . I guess the only thing would be how often a mistake is made by how good the player is in his attributes 

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The Movement and animations. I think we need to see much more movement than what we have now. It just feels like Stick to the position on pitch rather than how fluid the player moves like in real world. The Pressing can be very effective in real world as they see all other players where as the player in ME just see where the ball is and try to press him. Similarly on the ball.I feel this is where the biggest lack of movement. If we look at City , Bayern , Liverpool as soon as the ball reaches controller in their teams the Players move to create space and start the attack. In ME its clearly missing. 

The Animations is another one what i feel we are missing. Taking the biggest example. we see similar 1 v 1's on the animation side with very slight changes but the probable ME side have it very differently. A slight mis touch on the Runner or running out of his top speed or a bad decison all these things represented as Simple 1 v 1 miss or kicking it into GK hands. If we can see more of what ME sees then majority of things might be changed. 

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I'm a little surprised how many don't see game missing mistakes. Of course player movement and mistakes like worse passes go hand to hand. I understand If game is build around static formation system then there's not much room for passes or crosses that are not perfect. Maybe in future there could be more not so perfect passes, not so perfect first touches and more decisions to go temporary positions with sprints or runs. More reacting to ball movement when ball is in the air, this is almost non existent at the moment.

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3 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

I'm a little surprised how many don't see game missing mistakes. Of course player movement and mistakes like worse passes go hand to hand. I understand If game is build around static formation system then there's not much room for passes or crosses that are not perfect. Maybe in future there could be more not so perfect passes, not so perfect first touches and more decisions to go temporary positions with sprints or runs. More reacting to ball movement when ball is in the air, this is almost non existent at the moment.

Thats a Good Point but given these are interlinked i think if we get movement better which in turn improves pressing perhaps we might see the mistakes crop up? 

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3 hours ago, ferrarinseb said:

Thats a Good Point but given these are interlinked i think if we get movement better which in turn improves pressing perhaps we might see the mistakes crop up? 

Yeah realism comes via movement/physical skill and technical skills holding hands. Sure mental Skills too but atm I feel we need to see more concrete thing at the field. By realism I mean chaos and randomnes of the game and that includes mistakes.

Edited by Pasonen
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1 hour ago, Brother Ben said:

God I miss attending live matches every week, so its definitely the atmosphere for me, on both counts.  Not being able to watch a match live is making me fall out of love with football a little at present

I know what you mean about the atmosphere, I have been to games all around Europe.one of my favourite things is the way the fans are different.one thing fm does terribly is the stadium atmosphere. Plus dont fall out of love with football ,i hope you can rekindle your love again 😀.

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1 hour ago, Novem9 said:

sure? :) sounds like things discussed over 9000 times but with vote this time 

It's good to have some data about what people want or feel. Not just scrambled opinions in 10 threads. Maybe this poll make it easier to see what people think without unnecessary drama or rant. :D

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1 hour ago, Weasek said:

I know what you mean about the atmosphere, I have been to games all around Europe.one of my favourite things is the way the fans are different.one thing fm does terribly is the stadium atmosphere. Plus dont fall out of love with football ,i hope you can rekindle your love again 😀.

I will when they let us back into the stadiums, miss it all though, meeting mates before the game, the buzz etc

Back to FM i'm not quite sure what they can do to make it better on that front really.  I'll be honest i found it better pre 2D & 3D because you could use the text to imagine what was going on but obviously in terms of a functioning game a visual representation is required these days

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1 ora fa, Novem9 ha scritto:

sure? :) sounds like things discussed over 9000 times but with vote this time 

 

20 minuti fa, Pasonen ha scritto:

It's good to have some data about what people want or feel. Not just scrambled opinions in 10 threads. Maybe this poll make it easier to see what people think without unnecessary drama or rant. :D

No need to add more, thanks @Pasonen :thup:

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I hesitate to answer this poll, because its premise seems flawed. 1 and 2 seem like unrelated questions. What I most enjoy about real football, and how the FM could change to most improve my enjoyment of it, are very distinct. Here are two examples.

My opinion is that improving the animation would enhance my experience the most, because this would allow you to better see a visual representation of the player's skills and attributes. I can watch Juve and quickly appreciate Dybala's agility and Ronaldo's jumping reach, but this does not come through on the game at all. But the main reason I think it should be improved in FM is *not* because I enjoy appreciating the player's skills in real life. Rather, I think it would improve FM gameplay by affect personnel decisions and tactics, as you could better see why your not-agile false 9 isn't working or why it was useful to give your striker the "places shots" trait. 

Conversely, I enjoy the drama of a tight important match IRL, but the game's efforts to insert drama often don't work for me at all. As an example, I believe the creators show the entire walk of the referee to the VAR stand trying to create drama, but this could be my least favorite experience of the entire game.  <edited to say that VAR replays are also one of my least favorite aspect of real football :) >

Edited by fivetwelvepony
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12 hours ago, Pasonen said:

I'm a little surprised how many don't see game missing mistakes. Of course player movement and mistakes like worse passes go hand to hand. I understand If game is build around static formation system then there's not much room for passes or crosses that are not perfect. Maybe in future there could be more not so perfect passes, not so perfect first touches and more decisions to go temporary positions with sprints or runs. More reacting to ball movement when ball is in the air, this is almost non existent at the moment.

I think the main reason is plenty of mistakes are made, just not necessarily the same as IRL (e.g keepers rarely flap compared with RL, but there's plenty of bad marking at the back post)

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8 hours ago, enigmatic said:

I think the main reason is plenty of mistakes are made, just not necessarily the same as IRL (e.g keepers rarely flap compared with RL, but there's plenty of bad marking at the back post)

I think the main thing is though not many of us watch the whole 90m of the game . We generally watch the scaled down versions as in Extended or Comprehensive  and in that way maybe the mistakes are amplified to look as though they happen all the time so it fits in with the script of the game . Because the game is scripted if you dont do any adjustments to change anything it will run its course .

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For me Atmosphere is one of the most important point. 

And in 'atmosphere' I put also aspects like 'legacy', 'mythos' and environment in general

FM is a huge disappointment in this and I always lost soon interest 'cause I understand that the greatest part of the game is in my head, so that I don't need the game.

For me there is not Football without Pelè or Maradona, or the Mighty Magyar drama in WC final, or the rise, the fall and the reborn of Ronaldo Nazario, or the impact of Cruijff and holland team, or Roberto Baggio sad missing penalty, or the Messi/Cr7 race.

In FM there is none of this. And become more and more evident going forward in the game, when the real world environment that you, user, bring in the game, isn't working anymore 'cause the world in game has changed.

 

And yes, I would love to see more animation that let me see a difference between Ronaldinho e Nedved style.

 

 

Edited by FlorianAlbert9
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12 hours ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

For me Atmosphere is one of the most important point. 

And in 'atmosphere' I put also aspects like 'legacy', 'mythos' and environment in general

FM is a huge disappointment in this and I always lost soon interest 'cause I understand that the greatest part of the game is in my head, so that I don't need the game.

For me there is not Football without Pelè or Maradona, or the Mighty Magyar drama in WC final, or the rise, the fall and the reborn of Ronaldo Nazario, or the impact of Cruijff and holland team, or Roberto Baggio sad missing penalty, or the Messi/Cr7 race.

In FM there is none of this. And become more and more evident going forward in the game, when the real world environment that you, user, bring in the game, isn't working anymore 'cause the world in game has changed.

 

And yes, I would love to see more animation that let me see a difference between Ronaldinho e Nedved style.

 

 

Atmosphere problems 

same sound in all stadium in all affluence 

 

the variety of stadium is limited ( https://community.sigames.com/topic/506045-suggestion-stadiums-with-running-tracks-and-better-representation-of-small-stadiums/ )

SI should make a collection of type of stands for .0-500 seat/500-1000/

  1.   1000-5000 / 5000-10 000/----- 10 000- 20 000
  2.  20 000 -35000/35 000- 50 000 
  3.  50 000 - 75 000/ --------75 000 - 100K / +100K

https://community.sigames.com/topic/388574-fm2017-mod-for-stadiums-especially-for-lower-leagues/ 

 ! I did not ask that the stadium be individually modeled ! I know that the stadiums are generated by the ME according to the information it has (in particular the number of seats)

lack off cutscene ( exemple the game could make finals special event )

@KUBI What do you think of this idea? do you think that in the long term it can be possible or realistic ?

Edited by destmez
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Mistakes are present in the game. Defensive mistakes and attacking mistakes (missed chances, poor touches, soft shots, hesitation until defender arrives etc.)

What is missing, perhaps, is the difference between skillful sides and lower teams. In FM you can see long diagonal balls being played in lower league teams and the players will take those long passes down with their first touch without problems, even though none of the players have first touch or passing above 10.

In real life it just doesn't work like that. Such pass will more often than not miss the target it was aimed to. What's more important - those players and their manager know that. So they're not even trying to play fancy technical football, but instead they play shorter, simple passes in midfield or just send direct balls into space for their wingers/strikers to chase. 

That's perhaps the biggest realism issue with FM. In FM any lower league side can play like Barcelona or Liverpool while in real world their lack of technical ability would be immediate hindrance. 

 

The second thing is obviously fatigue. Physically superior side in real life takes initiative in the end of first and second half. Intense pressing requires a lot of stamina and work rate and that should be evident in the end of the game. Almost no teams can press with high intensity more than 15-20 minutes without taking a break or they'd be spent force in the second half. While FM has taken some steps to recreate how match load affects injury proneness and fatigue before the next game (in my experience players need more recovery time that they did in FM16 and it's also affected by your training calendar), it's still not present in the match.

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1 hour ago, Draakon said:

That's perhaps the biggest realism issue with FM. In FM any lower league side can play like Barcelona or Liverpool while in real world their lack of technical ability would be immediate hindrance. 

 

The second thing is obviously fatigue. Physically superior side in real life takes initiative in the end of first and second half. Intense pressing requires a lot of stamina and work rate and that should be evident in the end of the game. Almost no teams can press with high intensity more than 15-20 minutes without taking a break or they'd be spent force in the second half.

Yeah you're right, these are 2 very big areas what need changes. To pull these through it would also need game give more information for the human manager and ai what kind of game their players are able to play. "This team can use X amount time of high pressing use it wisely", "our high tempo short passing tactic is causing player X and y struggle with the ball". If these would be improved it would be huge for the game because it would shape the game style of different leagues in to a more unique direction.

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To elaborate more on the same topic.

Poor first touch and technique in lower leagues is not the problem in real life. You can see it in games. Players need 2-3 touches to get the ball under control, but get away with it, because they have time and space around them. That's because in lower leagues, pressing intensity is also low - defending team reacts slower, defending players cover the space slower and so in those moments when  you receive the ball, you have time to get it under control and watch around, what to do with it (where to pass, or dribble, or shoot).

The difference, when moving from amateur football to professional football, or lower leagues to Champions League level, is that that space and time is taken away from the player. He might be used to have 4-5 seconds with the ball, now he only has 2-3 second before he's closed down and that's a huge difference. He can't afford any poor touches now, or possession is lost. He needs to work more with his off the ball movement to create space around him and his teammates need to be ready to offer him passing options much faster than they've used to. More often or not that's a transition the players can't do, because their skills are limited.

In professional football in Champions League level, players are used to it - they have heads up, searching for passing options even before they receive the ball. Footwork is automatic - no need to keep your eyes on the ball. First touch is so good that second touch is needed rarely (and third touch almost never). They can overcome high pressing while lower league teams cannot.

 

But in lower leagues, teams do not need to overcome that high pressing, because in lower leagues no team can do it like Liverpool does. It can be more intense when some teams are physically superior to others, but it's undoubtedly less intense than in higher levels. And it's simply because some things are constant. For example, teams have still 10 outfield players and the pitch has the same measurements. And while there could be a rare physical beast in lower leagues who have 20 stamina and 16 work rate and good pace, the overall team pressure can't rely on one player. So if the manager of that lower league team asked his players to press with higher line of engagement, more intensity and gegenpress as a team, his players would be exhausted in 30 minutes.  So, in reality he does not try to emulate Liverpool style in his team and sticks to team shape and good defensive organisation instead of pressing.

 

The second thing is technical ability and passing/crossing accuracy. You rarely see a good cross in real life in lower leagues. It's more like the ball goes to general direction of your teammate, who needs to chase it down. That, combined with poor first touch, heading and anticipation of receiving player, means we don't see such beautiful goals in lower leagues that FM usually presents us with. It's much more scrappy football. In FM lower league wingers-fullbacks can easily have around 20-30% of their crosses connected. In real life it should be much closer to 5-10%. And that's even when they have space and time to take and aim that pass, without being under pressure.

Frequency of ridiculous mistakes is also higher in lower leagues and FM is not showing it properly. Poor touch that takes the ball over sideline. Just bluntly missing the ball whatsoever or letting it slip from under your foot when you should receive it. Mistakes are more frequent when the player is running at full pace, tries to shoot with his first touch (no problem seeing volleys in FM lower leagues) or is tired.

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Just a thought should there be more complete duds when trying to shoot challenged? Lose of balance or just missed kicks when trying to shoot. This would limit those "oh he just shot the ball in the hands of GK in "good position". These shots make misleading stats where's 30 shots 10-20 "in target". Of course higher mentalities make players shoot more but should it be like that? Maybe keep shooting tendencies same for all mentalities and let instructions shoot more/less dictate how players behave?

Edited by Pasonen
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I hope SI sees that (of course you do ;) ) even if people don't necessarily need to see individual performances (14.42%) in real football they are feeling game is lacking it. It literally means that even when they are not looking for it they feel and see it's lacking. "There's too much grey paint and not enough other colours." Meaning grey is static safe system, statistics and other colours chaos and changing events.

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I have to add that I really appreciate SI's work and have to say you really made my younghood so much better without buts. I have played your game from the start and it has been one thing that shaped my thinking to what it's now. Thank you! Without buts ;)

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I want dynamically changing potential!!!!:mad::mad::mad:  It would depends on the level of the team, on the level of coaches, on the professionalism of the player, on the player's salary, on ... It's not so hard to do !!! no need to calculate the performance of all 80,000 players. Enough once a year at least 100 of the top championships or just my club players...

I recently made a base update from FM20 for FM17. Many, many players have become stronger or vice versa! 

Let's ask Miles to do this feature. Tired of the "new dialogues" in every new game:seagull:

Edited by Jorgen_B
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2 hours ago, Jorgen_B said:

I want dynamically changing potential!!!!:mad::mad::mad:  It would depends on the level of the team, on the level of coaches, on the professionalism of the player, on the player's salary, on ... It's not so hard to do !!! no need to calculate the performance of all 80,000 players. Enough once a year at least 100 of the top championships or just my club players...

I recently made a base update from FM20 for FM17. Many, many players have become stronger or vice versa! 

Let's ask Miles to do this feature. Tired of the "new dialogues" in every new game:seagull:

How can a players potential change?  Are you sure you don't mean current ability, which does change?

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3 hours ago, Jorgen_B said:

I want dynamically changing potential!!!!:mad::mad::mad:  It would depends on the level of the team, on the level of coaches, on the professionalism of the player, on the player's salary, on ... It's not so hard to do !!! no need to calculate the performance of all 80,000 players. Enough once a year at least 100 of the top championships or just my club players...

I recently made a base update from FM20 for FM17. Many, many players have become stronger or vice versa! 

Let's ask Miles to do this feature. Tired of the "new dialogues" in every new game:seagull:

Of course it isn't hard to do, but it's also completely illogical.  Your potential is your potential.  That can't physically change.  What does change is how you approach that "number".  The only reason it's a number at all is because the code needs it to function.  The worst thing the editor ever did was expose that to the user.

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Someone did not understand someone. Let me explain: there is a default Dembele. He has a potential of 180. In any club, except for the very weak, he will reach maximum development. Although in life Dembele receives 10 million salaries per year and stops training, and never reaches 180.
Opposite example: there is a default Vardi. He was a weak player for many years and FM prescribed 120 potential for him. 120! But a good coach came in or changed the team or ... and Vardy's level went up to 170. Vardy is top now. it's realistic. not in the game
p.s delete  updates for FM and FM.

p.p.s. FM players are the most conservative of all, minimum  claim = minimum  new features .

 

Edited by Jorgen_B
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59 minutes ago, Jorgen_B said:

Someone did not understand someone. Let me explain: there is a default Dembele. He has a potential of 180. In any club, except for the very weak, he will reach maximum development. Although in life Dembele receives 10 million salaries per year and stops training, and never reaches 180.
Opposite example: there is a default Vardi. He was a weak player for many years and FM prescribed 120 potential for him. 120! But a good coach came in or changed the team or ... and Vardy's level went up to 170. Vardy is top now. it's realistic. not in the game
p.s delete  updates for FM and FM.

p.p.s. FM players are the most conservative of all, minimum  claim = minimum  new features .

 

wondered how long it would take for Vardy to be mentioned 

This thread will be of interest to you and covers this topic pretty well

 

Edited by Brother Ben
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3 ore fa, forameuss ha scritto:

Of course it isn't hard to do, but it's also completely illogical.  Your potential is your potential. 

It's true: dynamic PA is illogical. 

But not for the 'dynamic' part, but for the 'Potential'. 

In the real football world there is not a 'potential' value/factor as in FM. 
No professional scout will judge a player find out an hidden value. They will use current ability, mental attributes (like professionalism), family, physical attributes (that some are harder to improve) and of course club's structures/staff.
 

 

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Ok, guys, I realized that here everyone is waiting for hundreds of lines of new phrases in the new version of the game. It'll be enough. I suggested an IDEA, you criticize individual thoughts separately from the context. Yes, there are flaws in the idea, but a similar mechanism will make the game fun. Guys, learn to dream. Adieu!

Edited by Jorgen_B
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Some good comments in this thread about mistakes. I bought FM20 late and played one save (Derby) for about eight seasons, and then shelved it due to aspects of the match engine that drive me batty. It's mostly good, but some things I just can't take. Aside from that I was left feeling that the football is far too precise, so it's interesting to read the comments in this thread now. That's how I felt about it so I decided to go retro and re-installed FM13. The difference is glaring. In that save I played Leeds, so started at Championship level in both games. But the frequency and types of mistakes displayed by the match engine is simply not comparable.

Keepers flapping at crosses, underhit backpasses, passes straight to the opposition, balls hit straight in to touch, players colliding and BOTH going to ground, backpasses eluding the keeper for an OG and on and on. I am not saying that mistakes are not part of FM20, but the difference is glaring. This is much more satisfying brand of football for me.

Sadly there's so much other stuff I miss going back so far (like nets that bulge among many others) that I only played a few seasons before settling on FM18 which gives me a sort of middle ground, but has it's own issues (worst distance shooting in FM history?). It would be a wonderful thing to pick apart all of the best things from each game and stitch it back together as the perfect FM! But clearly I want the game to be less precise than what I feel FM20 is.

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11 hours ago, onionbag said:

Some good comments in this thread about mistakes. I bought FM20 late and played one save (Derby) for about eight seasons, and then shelved it due to aspects of the match engine that drive me batty. It's mostly good, but some things I just can't take. Aside from that I was left feeling that the football is far too precise, so it's interesting to read the comments in this thread now. That's how I felt about it so I decided to go retro and re-installed FM13. The difference is glaring. In that save I played Leeds, so started at Championship level in both games. But the frequency and types of mistakes displayed by the match engine is simply not comparable.

Keepers flapping at crosses, underhit backpasses, passes straight to the opposition, balls hit straight in to touch, players colliding and BOTH going to ground, backpasses eluding the keeper for an OG and on and on. I am not saying that mistakes are not part of FM20, but the difference is glaring. This is much more satisfying brand of football for me.

Sadly there's so much other stuff I miss going back so far (like nets that bulge among many others) that I only played a few seasons before settling on FM18 which gives me a sort of middle ground, but has it's own issues (worst distance shooting in FM history?). It would be a wonderful thing to pick apart all of the best things from each game and stitch it back together as the perfect FM! But clearly I want the game to be less precise than what I feel FM20 is.

Agreed. Football is a chaos where majority of teams and their managers/players try to find the rhythm in it. ME sets the rhythm and then tries to create chaos. 

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One of the biggest worries I have concerning ME is there's so many changeable instructions and traits in game. The way I see it every single player and AI changeable setting make ME more impossible to reach real football. I know it's good those settings are there to bring deepness but if some of them would be integrated to game and make game more preparation based would it make more possible to bring game more close real one?

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I personally would get rid of the player roles and the hardcoded behaviour.

Each position as a blank canvas (maybe with the roles as presets) and the player prefered moves added also for player instructions. That way I think we could have much more flexibility.

Something like team tactics.

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On 02/10/2020 at 19:46, kalokalitokalo said:

Each position as a blank canvas (maybe with the roles as presets) and the player prefered moves added also for player instructions. That way I think we could have much more flexibility.

It's just AI would get overrun against humanplayer or at least then there should be patch for AI role construction intelligence.

Edited by Pasonen
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On 02/10/2020 at 17:46, kalokalitokalo said:

I personally would get rid of the player roles and the hardcoded behaviour.

Each position as a blank canvas (maybe with the roles as presets) and the player prefered moves added also for player instructions. That way I think we could have much more flexibility.

Something like team tactics.

This is literally how it used to be isn't it?

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5 hours ago, Brother Ben said:

This is literally how it used to be isn't it?

On the face of it, probably, but I'd be amazed if that's how it worked under the hood.  It's like the level of "control" you had on versions of CM ages ago.  You could drag every player around the pitch for throw-ins and put them wherever you wanted.  I don't believe for a second that that behaviour was being replicated under the hood.

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On 02/10/2020 at 19:46, kalokalitokalo said:

player prefered moves added also for player instructions.

I think they could just merge some preferred moves to player general behaviour at the field depending what kind of attributes they have. Players with high flair making tricks, and overhead kicks, technical finishers lobbing the ball and passing ball to a corner of the net, good off the ball means using channels more often. Less balancing for the SI and less idiot player behaviour for the managers.

Edited by Pasonen
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