A guide to direct long ball, antifootball play - A Dyche's Burnley inspired 4-4-2

[engamohd]

58 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I noticed you use a Winger on Attack- is this meant to get more targets for crosses, or late runs forward?

It is literally written on the tin, the W-A is expected to dribble more, get to the opposition box with options to shoot or cross. He also attack the far post when the ball is on the opposite flank.

The W-S is expected to dribble and cross early.

[andre62]

@engamohd

[andre62]

can you share your 2 tactics please? thanks

[engamohd]

29 minutes ago, andre62 said:

can you share your 2 tactics please? thanks

The tactics are exactly what I have shared here, no OIs or PIs added.

[engamohd]

This is probably my favourite FM moment this season so far, denying 3rd placed Utd any title hope by a 85 min header!

[Djeon36]

I find it hilarious that when I first used your tactic with having my Chris Wood at right side TM-S, the team played poorly but as soon as I switch him to the left side TM-S, the team just starts playing really well...

 

Gonna def try out playing Barnes as PF-S see how it goes but so far i've been playing really well with your tactic. Keep up the good work!!

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Djeon36

[engamohd]

1 hour ago, Djeon36 said:

I find it hilarious that when I first used your tactic with having my Chris Wood at right side TM-S, the team played poorly but as soon as I switch him to the left side TM-S, the team just starts playing really well...

 

Gonna def try out playing Barnes as PF-S see how it goes but so far i've been playing really well with your tactic. Keep up the good work!!

 

Good luck! I probably won't ever use a TM-S anymore in a two striker duo, after I have found out that the TM-A is exactly what I need from a Target man.

[engamohd]

Massive second season transfer business by our DOF. We were handed around 50M kitty and made great use of it.

[karanhsingh]

Good business! Surprised you sold Hickey though.

[johnnyyakuza78]

Great posts Engamohd! I’m really enjoying your write ups!

Im still playing a long ball style with my Wimbledon save and i laughed looking at your different variations because I feel like you’ve gone through a lot of the same thought processes as me over time!

I also tried a TM on attack with a pressing forward on support for the exact same reasons you did. I noticed that in terms of headers my attacking striker was always getting more sent his way and long balls were going to him. So I just swapped the roles like you did.

I didn’t love how it worked though, didn’t really sit with how I wanted to set up, and was kind of a situational change

From my experiences I’ve found that Hoofball is often not a consistent method of winning football matches. It relies heavily on where the opposition is leaving space ( if behind then it’s quite simple, but if they are sitting deep then it makes things far more complicated)

You end up relying on individual bits of skill or the odd set piece to create chances for you because your set up isn’t designed to create space and drag sides around.

Ive also found that I need to tweak a lot in games and between opponents. My 2nd season was a bit of a disaster as I was rigidly sticking to my guns and playing low block long ball. Since then I’ve gone with 2 tactics and swap between them in match.

Im Wimbledon so I’ve gone full crazy gang. Attacking 424. And then a low block Burnley style tactic. Swapping helps to preserve energy in game as well.

Anyway, congrats on a great thread. Love any attempts at Hoofball, because it seems to the opposite of how most seem to play. 
 

One thing to note, I personally feel a bit unwell using counter press with my side. You could argue it makes them more aggressive which is on brand, but at the same time Counter press describes a more sophisticated pressing style that I don’t see many traditional English long ball sides employing.

[engamohd]

6 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

Good business! Surprised you sold Hickey though.

He was stagnating and was poor defensively and physically. Wanted a stronger FB. Sold him for a massive profit though.

[engamohd]

6 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Great posts Engamohd! I’m really enjoying your write ups!

Im still playing a long ball style with my Wimbledon save and i laughed looking at your different variations because I feel like you’ve gone through a lot of the same thought processes as me over time!

Thank you! It seems evident that we want to achieve a particular brand, and are trying to translate this to the ME.

 

6 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I didn’t love how it worked though, didn’t really sit with how I wanted to set up, and was kind of a situational change

What do you expect of your TM? I want him to hold up balls/flick on for onrushing attackers, hence TM-A was perfect.

 

6 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

From my experiences I’ve found that Hoofball is often not a consistent method of winning football matches. It relies heavily on where the opposition is leaving space ( if behind then it’s quite simple, but if they are sitting deep then it makes things far more complicated)

You end up relying on individual bits of skill or the odd set piece to create chances for you because your set up isn’t designed to create space and drag sides around.

I disagree with this, all teams rely more on something to create space. Just like teams like Liverpool rely much on Firmino for pressing and creating space, we need our TM-A to create space using physical presence. Against deeper sides, you need your wingers to do their part to cause havoc. 

 

6 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

One thing to note, I personally feel a bit unwell using counter press with my side. You could argue it makes them more aggressive which is on brand, but at the same time Counter press describes a more sophisticated pressing style that I don’t see many traditional English long ball sides employing.

Agreed. I dropped it to Regroup, which made me solider. However, I think I may drop the higher LOE too, and just press more deeper.

 

6 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

And then a low block Burnley style tactic

I believe Burnley are mostly medium block, unless against top teams. Low defensive block are, just like bus parking, not sustainable for long term.

 

Thank you for your feedback, was really looking forward to it, and would you mind sharing your Wimbledon team?

Good luck.

[Dr. Hook]

21 hours ago, engamohd said:

Good luck! I probably won't ever use a TM-S anymore in a two striker duo, after I have found out that the TM-A is exactly what I need from a Target man.

THis. I always loved the idea of the TM-S but in practice I could not ever get them to do quite what I wanted. The TM-A seems to be better choice for the role in most setups.

[engamohd]

Another insight after using the TM with attacking duty. I noticed that he needs lots of supporting players around him to lay off the ball quickly after winning it. In my previous setup, I had a W-S next to him, which did not help in the forward runs. I changed the positions such that the TM-A is next to a W-A, this creates overloads on that flank, and allows the winger to cross to the far post to the PF-S and the W-S if the TM-A does play the ball to the winger.

[engamohd]

39 minutes ago, Dr. Hook said:

THis. I always loved the idea of the TM-S but in practice I could not ever get them to do quite what I wanted. The TM-A seems to be better choice for the role in most setups.

I believe a TM-S would work great with Shadow strikers and similar setups, but in a duo, TM-A is what most people look for.

[Dr. Hook]

1 minute ago, engamohd said:

I believe a TM-S would work great with Shadow strikers and similar setups, but in a duo, TM-A is what most people look for.

It does better with attackers who are coming from deep behind him, I agree. I never really had a setup like that because no suitable players, so the TM-A did what it needed to do. I am looking forward to really having a go with the target man in the new FM. I did not play 20 a great deal due to life circumstances. Anyway, I love this thread and what you were able to do with the tactic! 

[herne79]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Hook said:

It does better with attackers who are coming from deep behind him, I agree. I never really had a setup like that because no suitable players, so the TM-A did what it needed to do. I am looking forward to really having a go with the target man in the new FM. I did not play 20 a great deal due to life circumstances. Anyway, I love this thread and what you were able to do with the tactic! 

Good to see you back Doc .

[Djeon36]

Hey guys after watching Burnley's last game (even thought they lost) how do you think their tactic would look like in FM20? 

[Cal585]

Attacking Target Men! Who knew right?

Thanks for this post, it has been of great help for me as I've been trying to get York into the Premier League playing a 442 with a TM the entire time but have stagnated in the Championship. Tweaked my tactic to match yours and it's breathed some new life into my side. I'd still been getting decent results with the TM(s) but the TM(a) seems to have lifted their game. I'd also been hedging on both higher tempo and slightly more direct but dropping the tempo and going full direct actually seems to work better for me. I'm still experimenting whether I have my 2nd wide player as a winger or wide attacking midfielder on attack or support but have found having my set attacking winger near the TM has helped.

Out of curiosity, why do you have the GK distribution instructions about rolling the ball out to the full backs?

[engamohd]

1 hour ago, Cal585 said:

Attacking Target Men! Who knew right?

Thanks for this post, it has been of great help for me as I've been trying to get York into the Premier League playing a 442 with a TM the entire time but have stagnated in the Championship. Tweaked my tactic to match yours and it's breathed some new life into my side. I'd still been getting decent results with the TM(s) but the TM(a) seems to have lifted their game. I'd also been hedging on both higher tempo and slightly more direct but dropping the tempo and going full direct actually seems to work better for me. I'm still experimenting whether I have my 2nd wide player as a winger or wide attacking midfielder on attack or support but have found having my set attacking winger near the TM has helped.

Out of curiosity, why do you have the GK distribution instructions about rolling the ball out to the full backs?

Thank you, I am so glad that you are doing better now!

The idea is to give the forwards more time to get into positions, in addition to not being one-dimensional, by lumping the ball to the TM. Having the ball going to the FBs decrease the chance of being pressed, gives us option to either play to the DLP, Wingers, or just dribble besides the long pass to TM option.

[Cal585]

Cheers, I might give that  try and see how it works. I've just left the GK distribution unchanged at the moment

[FMunderachiever]

@engamohd @johnnyyakuza78     Hi there, been following this thread with interest because i have a long term FM21 career in mind with a very bad team and I think a hoofball approach might be a good one to take.

 

Unfortunately, i cant get onto the game at the moment, but i was considering this formation to use:

I cant get to the game at the moment, but the general thing i was looking for was:

• With the two wide midfielders, i want them to be a "half and half" kind of player that will be wide enough to play angled through balls and crosses, but sit narrow enough to make a central 3 with the ball winning midfielder, to aid the press and to recover loose balls. It may be, that just the right sided WM is told to sit narrower whilst the more attacking WM retains the width to get in at the back post, and the interaction of the DLF can create a "sort of" midfield 4 at times that is moved over to the left.

 

• I want the two full backs and two wide midfielders to be a source of crossed balls into the front 3 and look for the target man at every opportunity. A ball playing defender is used in the hope of going back to front early, bypassing the midfield.

 

• The front 3 combination is an attempt to play an "up, back and through" style. If the target man wins the ball, he can head it onto the onrushing pressing forward, or back to the deep lying forward who should drop off from the front line. Im then hoping with the interaction of the BWM pushing up that we can pounce on second balls quickly.

 

• Ill be working very hard on being effective from set pieces in this tactic

 

• In terms of team instructions, i havent settled on these yet but the basic principles i will be looking for are:

1. Retaining the ball long enough that we can get adequate numbers forward, and THEN look for the long pass (its on this basis im thinking pass into space and hit early crosses might not be the best idea)
2. Urgent pressing to pick up loose balls that will inevitably not be held up by the target man
3. A possible counter press to increase that pressing mentality to get the ball back when the loose ball breaks (not sure about this)
4. A high line of engagement, to get the forwards closer to the opposition goal
5. Possibly setting the defensive line deeper to try and create more space for our players to pick up loose balls, and act as a last line of defence when out of possession

 

I know this tactic is totally untested, but the club i want to manage basically let all of its players go over the summer and signed a whole new team, so testing on FM20 wouldnt be much use to be honest.

 

Would appreciate your general thoughts on this tactical idea, and if there is anything that stands out as an immediate obvious weakness of it.

Also, would love feedback on what team instructions would compliment the approach

 

Thank you

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by FMunderachiever

[leo_cervecero17]

Hi brother, is your current tactic like this?

[engamohd]

5 hours ago, leo_cervecero17 said:

Hi brother, is your current tactic like this?

I can't read the roles. What language is that?

[engamohd]

On 30/09/2020 at 23:11, FMunderachiever said:

@engamohd @johnnyyakuza78     Hi there, been following this thread with interest because i have a long term FM21 career in mind with a very bad team and I think a hoofball approach might be a good one to take.

 

Unfortunately, i cant get onto the game at the moment, but i was considering this formation to use:

I cant get to the game at the moment, but the general thing i was looking for was:

• With the two wide midfielders, i want them to be a "half and half" kind of player that will be wide enough to play angled through balls and crosses, but sit narrow enough to make a central 3 with the ball winning midfielder, to aid the press and to recover loose balls. It may be, that just the right sided WM is told to sit narrower whilst the more attacking WM retains the width to get in at the back post, and the interaction of the DLF can create a "sort of" midfield 4 at times that is moved over to the left.

 

• I want the two full backs and two wide midfielders to be a source of crossed balls into the front 3 and look for the target man at every opportunity. A ball playing defender is used in the hope of going back to front early, bypassing the midfield.

 

• The front 3 combination is an attempt to play an "up, back and through" style. If the target man wins the ball, he can head it onto the onrushing pressing forward, or back to the deep lying forward who should drop off from the front line. Im then hoping with the interaction of the BWM pushing up that we can pounce on second balls quickly.

 

• Ill be working very hard on being effective from set pieces in this tactic

 

• In terms of team instructions, i havent settled on these yet but the basic principles i will be looking for are:

1. Retaining the ball long enough that we can get adequate numbers forward, and THEN look for the long pass (its on this basis im thinking pass into space and hit early crosses might not be the best idea)
2. Urgent pressing to pick up loose balls that will inevitably not be held up by the target man
3. A possible counter press to increase that pressing mentality to get the ball back when the loose ball breaks (not sure about this)
4. A high line of engagement, to get the forwards closer to the opposition goal
5. Possibly setting the defensive line deeper to try and create more space for our players to pick up loose balls, and act as a last line of defence when out of possession

 

I know this tactic is totally untested, but the club i want to manage basically let all of its players go over the summer and signed a whole new team, so testing on FM20 wouldnt be much use to be honest.

 

Would appreciate your general thoughts on this tactical idea, and if there is anything that stands out as an immediate obvious weakness of it.

Also, would love feedback on what team instructions would compliment the approach

 

Thank you

 

Thank you for your interest!

Having a front three is obviously a very good idea for hoof ball, but that comes with implications:

1. You are losing a lot of defensive stability, since three players are so high up not offering consistent defensive cover. You need to make up for this using the midfield.

2. Your midfield has only one player and will certainly be overrun, especially that you are not aggressive in pressing.

My thought is that you either use a 4-4-2 wide diamond or 4-3-3 narrow or a 3-4-3. Personally I'd start with the narrow 4-3-3.

What club is that, might do a save with them, as I am quite bored with my current saves.

I'd also recommend that you have a higher DL, LOE and pressing urgency to allow your forwards play part in defense.

Good luck!

 

[FMunderachiever]

1 hour ago, engamohd said:

Thank you for your interest!

Having a front three is obviously a very good idea for hoof ball, but that comes with implications:

1. You are losing a lot of defensive stability, since three players are so high up not offering consistent defensive cover. You need to make up for this using the midfield.

2. Your midfield has only one player and will certainly be overrun, especially that you are not aggressive in pressing.

My thought is that you either use a 4-4-2 wide diamond or 4-3-3 narrow or a 3-4-3. Personally I'd start with the narrow 4-3-3.

What club is that, might do a save with them, as I am quite bored with my current saves.

I'd also recommend that you have a higher DL, LOE and pressing urgency to allow your forwards play part in defense.

Good luck!

 

Hi Engamohd

The club I will be starting with is my personal favourite football manager team, Albion Rovers of the Scottish League 2.

Scottish League 2 is a very weird league. It has a combination of pro and semi pro teams, and a very big gulf in quality between the best and worst players. There are ex premier league players in Scottish League 2 for some teams, whilst in other teams, there are semi pro players who are playing for free on a non contract basis.

I had a think about your idea of a 433 narrow, and a 343 formation.

I feel the 433 narrow will perhaps put too much emphasis onto the two wing backs as the source of the crossed balls.

I think the 343 could work however.

What would be your thoughts on this kind of set up for example:

 

With this formation we could play a high press, so deliver long from the goalkeeper and middle central defender, and compete for the second ball hard in midfield OR win the flick on to the two strikers or onrushing left sided winger.

The thing that puts me off a bit about this set up is the lack of delivery from out wide.

What kind of roles do you think best suit a narrow 433 lineup?

Id imagine the front three might be fairly similar to my front 3, but what would you do for the midfield three? and would you be using attacking wingbacks, or asking them to stay deep and cross from there?

 

Great to hear from you! thanks

 

 

[leo_cervecero17]

4 hours ago, engamohd said:

No puedo leer los roles. ¿Qué idioma es ese?

I am from Argentina, the winger and target man in attack do you have them on the right side?

[engamohd]

1 hour ago, leo_cervecero17 said:

I am from Argentina, the winger and target man in attack do you have them on the right side?

Yes mate, both on the same side.

[leo_cervecero17]

1 hour ago, engamohd said:

Sí amigo, ambos del mismo lado.

thanks brother!

[Djeon36]

Hey just wondering since you set to have a slandered Defensive Line? have you though of making one of the CB's into Cover? either a CD Co or NCB Co?? I think It can help against teams with fast counters and fast strikers that like to get behind the CB ( such as a Vardy or an Aubameyang?) what do you think? 

[Tsuru]

Thank you for the inspiration. I am playing FMT in portuguese league and I was looking into a quick and direct 4-4-2 style, as I have a good TM-PF pair but my team lacks the technique to hold the ball for long periods using short passing, and also because I love speedy football styles. 

Maybe I will have to change the BBM-S for a BWM-S and the left Winger for a WM-A to better fit my players. I will let you know the results.

[engamohd]

On 02/10/2020 at 22:26, Djeon36 said:

Hey just wondering since you set to have a slandered Defensive Line? have you though of making one of the CB's into Cover? either a CD Co or NCB Co?? I think It can help against teams with fast counters and fast strikers that like to get behind the CB ( such as a Vardy or an Aubameyang?) what do you think? 

I don't experiment a lot with the 2 CD pair, but sure a covering defender could work well there. Just take care when coming against 2 STs, watch closely how your are defending against them.

[engamohd]

5 hours ago, Tsuru said:

Thank you for the inspiration. I am playing FMT in portuguese league and I was looking into a quick and direct 4-4-2 style, as I have a good TM-PF pair but my team lacks the technique to hold the ball for long periods using short passing, and also because I love speedy football styles. 

Maybe I will have to change the BBM-S for a BWM-S and the left Winger for a WM-A to better fit my players. I will let you know the results.

Cheers mate! I'd love to know how you are doing. You may need to tinker with the defensive style, lest you be too passive and be under extensive pressure.

[Tsuru]

39 minutos atrás, engamohd disse:

Cheers mate! I'd love to know how you are doing. You may need to tinker with the defensive style, lest you be too passive and be under extensive pressure.

Yes, this is the hardest part for me. As a lower-mid table team, if I do more urgent pressing, my team leaves huge gaps for the opponents to exploit. If I use the regular pressing, the opponent has much time with the ball and moves it around creating all kinds of dangers. I think I will use your tactic as a base plan and maybe develop a more adequate defensive strategy for the team I have.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Tsuru

[engamohd]

1 hour ago, Tsuru said:

Yes, this is the hardest part for me. As a lower-mid table team, if I do more urgent pressing, my team leaves huge gaps for the opponents to exploit. If I use the regular pressing, the opponent has much time with the ball and moves it around creating all kinds of dangers. I think I will use your tactic as a base plan and maybe develop a more adequate defensive strategy for the team I have.

True, I personally prefer to play with the DL and LOE, letting individual roles do the pressing. 

[Tsuru]

15 horas atrás, engamohd disse:

True, I personally prefer to play with the DL and LOE, letting individual roles do the pressing. 

Hi. I used the tactic, but it was a disaster. My team was stuck on its own half and my players just threw the balls away, with lots of passing mistakes. This way it was very easy for opponents to regain possession and attack us. Maybe my players lack the correct atributtes to make it work - and maybe FMT 20 is too much focused on high Defensive Line, high LOE and high pressure systems. I will try to figure it out another combination of formation/instructions that fit more the team I have.

But thank you anyway, it´s nice to see people having success with direct football systems on those "gegenpress times" in FM.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Tsuru

[Pav_Makarov]

I always appreciate people, doing direct counterattacking style. I've managed to assemble mine finally and in the last game have beaten an opponents 4-1 with only 29% of possession. Finally it seems I've tamed FM 20

I like your approach on controlling pressing with roles rather TIs. I'll try to do such thing too

Edited October 22, 2020 by Pav_Makarov

[engamohd]

9 hours ago, Tsuru said:

Hi. I used the tactic, but it was a disaster. My team was stuck on its own half and my players just threw the balls away, with lots of passing mistakes. This way it was very easy for opponents to regain possession and attack us. Maybe my players lack the correct atributtes to make it work - and maybe FMT 20 is too much focused on high Defensive Line, high LOE and high pressure systems. I will try to figure it out another combination of formation/instructions that fit more the team I have.

But thank you anyway, it´s nice to see people having success with direct football systems on those "gegenpress times" in FM.

Actually, these are some of the most persistent issues I face, and I have been working to iron them out. Issues are mainly: Being aimlessly gungho in possession and allowing lots of possession to the opposition. My solution was to play the Attacking mentality, High DL, offside trap, and counter the high in possession risk that comes with the Attacking mentality with Play out of Defense and Work ball in the box. Started a save with Birmingham and things looks good already. I'll post it after I am confident these issues are gone.

[Zemahh]

12 hours ago, Tsuru said:

Hi. I used the tactic, but it was a disaster. My team was stuck on its own half and my players just threw the balls away, with lots of passing mistakes.

Instead of using Much More Direct Passing as a team instruction, my personal preference for counter-attacking systems is to use a BPD + NCB pairing and leave passing instructions on Standard or even Shorter.

The thinking behind this is that when my central defenders are in possession, opposition is likely to be caught high up the pitch; either because we just broke up their attack, or they're pressing us high. That's when there's space to be exposed behind them and direct and risky passes make sense, which BPD and NCB have hard-coded.

Now, let's say the counter-attack isn't on and our midfields are building up against an organized defence. Much More Direct Passing as a team instruction will max out everyone's passing directness regardless, so those attacks are likely to be unnecessarily rushed and go to waste, which sounds like what you're describing (extremely low possession numbers). There's no need for midfielders to be pinging one-touch cross-field passes all over the pitch when opposition is organized, they're likely to get intercepted easily and then we're on the back foot again.

Ideally, there should be some balance. No team can survive a game with ~30% possession, that's way too much time for opposition to pick your low block apart with an attack after attack, or just get lucky with one out of twenty crosses they have time to complete. Shorter Passing can help with ball retention (defending on the ball is just as important as defending off the ball), while you can then give two or three players (e.g. central defenders + playmaker) a license to be more adventurous from deep.

Besides that, counter-attacks in FM are entirely automatic and get triggered once certain conditions are met (individual mentalities, passing directness and tempo get maxed out for the duration, regardless of your instructions). That's why Much More Direct Passing can be quite risky, since you're not asking your team to be direct only when the opportunity is right, but all the time.

[engamohd]

7 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Instead of using Much More Direct Passing as a team instruction, my personal preference for counter-attacking systems is to use a BPD + NCB pairing and leave passing instructions on Standard or even Shorter.

The thinking behind this is that when my central defenders are in possession, opposition is likely to be caught high up the pitch; either because we just broke up their attack, or they're pressing us high. That's when there's space to be exposed behind them and direct and risky passes make sense, which BPD and NCB have hard-coded.

Now, let's say the counter-attack isn't on and our midfields are building up against an organized defence. Much More Direct Passing as a team instruction will max out everyone's passing directness regardless, so those attacks are likely to be unnecessarily rushed and go to waste, which sounds like what you're describing (extremely low possession numbers). There's no need for midfielders to be pinging one-touch cross-field passes all over the pitch when opposition is organized, they're likely to get intercepted easily and then we're on the back foot again.

Ideally, there should be some balance. No team can survive a game with ~30% possession, that's way too much time for opposition to pick your low block apart with an attack after attack, or just get lucky with one out of twenty crosses they have time to complete. Shorter Passing can help with ball retention (defending on the ball is just as important as defending off the ball), while you can then give two or three players (e.g. central defenders + playmaker) a license to be more adventurous from deep.

Besides that, counter-attacks in FM are entirely automatic and get triggered once certain conditions are met (individual mentalities, passing directness and tempo get maxed out for the duration, regardless of your instructions). That's why Much More Direct Passing can be quite risky, since you're not asking your team to be direct only when the opportunity is right, but all the time.

I fully agree with you, but within the context of counter-attacking. My plan is different though. I want to be an attacking team, not a counter attacking one, that is, as soon as we get the ball, we lump it forward to the furthermost player (the target man). I try to balance it with play out of defence and normal CBs rather than NCBs. I simply don't want to wait for a counter nor play a low block, I want to force things via a target man supported by some number players.

Actually, reasoning similar to your own is what forced me to tweak more and more. As I said, I need to be a direct attacking team. Nothing fixed on playing on the counter, nor playing a low-block. I came up with this, which I am liking. 

The 4-2-3-1 (which I despise as a formation) allows the furthermost player to always be the Targetman, and he would always be supported by 3 players behind him (rather than 1 centrally and 1 out wide in the 4-4-2). The Positive mentality enforces the forward pass intent that we need. I like that the target is much more involved here, he scored 5 in the last 5,

(Please ignore Bellingham as BWM, this was my Assistant's Quick-Pick :D)

[Tsuru]

14 horas atrás, engamohd disse:

Actually, these are some of the most persistent issues I face, and I have been working to iron them out. Issues are mainly: Being aimlessly gungho in possession and allowing lots of possession to the opposition. My solution was to play the Attacking mentality, High DL, offside trap, and counter the high in possession risk that comes with the Attacking mentality with Play out of Defense and Work ball in the box. Started a save with Birmingham and things looks good already. I'll post it after I am confident these issues are gone.

Yes, I think part of the problem is the 4-4-2 formation - it leaves huge gaps between the lines, which is very hard to deal with mid-small teams. I see you changed to a 4-2-3-1, something I also considered, but the other times I used the 4-2-3-1 my team also left huge gaps and was very fragile defensively. So I have to consider another options too.

 

10 horas atrás, Zemahh disse:

Instead of using Much More Direct Passing as a team instruction, my personal preference for counter-attacking systems is to use a BPD + NCB pairing and leave passing instructions on Standard or even Shorter.

The thinking behind this is that when my central defenders are in possession, opposition is likely to be caught high up the pitch; either because we just broke up their attack, or they're pressing us high. That's when there's space to be exposed behind them and direct and risky passes make sense, which BPD and NCB have hard-coded.

Now, let's say the counter-attack isn't on and our midfields are building up against an organized defence. Much More Direct Passing as a team instruction will max out everyone's passing directness regardless, so those attacks are likely to be unnecessarily rushed and go to waste, which sounds like what you're describing (extremely low possession numbers). There's no need for midfielders to be pinging one-touch cross-field passes all over the pitch when opposition is organized, they're likely to get intercepted easily and then we're on the back foot again.

Ideally, there should be some balance. No team can survive a game with ~30% possession, that's way too much time for opposition to pick your low block apart with an attack after attack, or just get lucky with one out of twenty crosses they have time to complete. Shorter Passing can help with ball retention (defending on the ball is just as important as defending off the ball), while you can then give two or three players (e.g. central defenders + playmaker) a license to be more adventurous from deep.

Besides that, counter-attacks in FM are entirely automatic and get triggered once certain conditions are met (individual mentalities, passing directness and tempo get maxed out for the duration, regardless of your instructions). That's why Much More Direct Passing can be quite risky, since you're not asking your team to be direct only when the opportunity is right, but all the time.

I agree with you, but as engamohd said, I don´t want to play counter attacking - I want to be a direct and fast attacking team. That is, move the ball foward and quickly, using the speed to open spaces and the Targetman´s capacity to score. But maybe this would require roles and duties focused on quick movement and roaming, let´s say, like Box to Box Midfielder, Roaming Playmaker, Ball Winning Midfielder, Regista, Trequartista, wingers that move inside, Shadow Striker and so on. Because it would be necessary not just to move the ball quickly, but the team should also do it to make it harder for the opponents. Otherwise I could fall on the "counter trap", setting direct instructions that would make my team just lump the ball foward instead of moving it on an intelligent way.

I have to thank you for your comment, you just gave me an idea of football style that I can follow to create a good tactic in FM. Maybe I will do it and post it here on a different topic.

[Zemahh]

2 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I agree with you, but as engamohd said, I don´t want to play counter attacking - I want to be a direct and fast attacking team. That is, move the ball foward and quickly, using the speed to open spaces and the Targetman´s capacity to score.

One thing to keep in mind though, is you always have to take both teams into account. Playing direct football is all well and good, but if, for example, the rest of your tactic is such opposition can barely move an inch out of their box, or they're unwilling to take any risks to begin with, there's never going to be any space for those long balls from back to front to be effective (i.e. opposition defenders always outnumbering your forwards). There's a reason such styles usually work best for counter-attacking underdogs, that's when opposition tends to overcommit very often and allows you to punish it on the break.

That's not to say Much More Direct Passing can't work though. Personally, I only use it when I'm desperately chasing a goal, but if I was to incorporate it into my standard tactic, I'd make sure my formation is such I always have enough numbers up front. For example, I can imagine it working nicely in a 3-4-3, where you A) don't want to take risks with short passing at the back, due to insufficient cover and B) have three players in advanced positions able to capitalize on those passes all the time. At the very least, I'd want to use multiple Attack duties that are making early runs and can support strikers quickly enough for them not to end up getting dispossessed on their own (to not go completely ballistic with risk-taking, I'd then also use a Cautious or Standard Mentality at most).

Anyway, apologies for the off-topic. Been following this thread with interest, since I, too, enjoy some Target Man shithousery. 

[Tsuru]

1 hora atrás, Zemahh disse:

That's not to say Much More Direct Passing can't work though. Personally, I only use it when I'm desperately chasing a goal, but if I was to incorporate it into my standard tactic, I'd make sure my formation is such I always have enough numbers up front. For example, I can imagine it working nicely in a 3-4-3, where you A) don't want to take risks with short passing at the back, due to insufficient cover and B) have three players in advanced positions able to capitalize on those passes all the time. At the very least, I'd want to use multiple Attack duties that are making early runs and can support strikers quickly enough for them not to end up getting dispossessed on their own (to not go completely ballistic with risk-taking, I'd then also use a Cautious or Standard Mentality at most).

This is a very good advice and the 3-4-3 idea is not bad. But I really think I will work on a quick and fast transition play with lots of movement and quick passes. Meanwhile I will keep following this topic as I also love direct styles.

[fmburchillfan]

2 hours ago, Tsuru said:

This is a very good advice and the 3-4-3 idea is not bad. But I really think I will work on a quick and fast transition play with lots of movement and quick passes. Meanwhile I will keep following this topic as I also love direct styles.

I've been working on this for a little while with some luck.

I did go to balanced mentality and swapped the 2 CM roles round 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by fmburchillfan

[Enzo_Francescoli]

8 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I agree with you, but as engamohd said, I don´t want to play counter attacking - I want to be a direct and fast attacking team. That is, move the ball foward and quickly, using the speed to open spaces and the Targetman´s capacity to score. But maybe this would require roles and duties focused on quick movement and roaming, let´s say, like Box to Box Midfielder, Roaming Playmaker, Ball Winning Midfielder, Regista, Trequartista, wingers that move inside, Shadow Striker and so on. Because it would be necessary not just to move the ball quickly, but the team should also do it to make it harder for the opponents. Otherwise I could fall on the "counter trap", setting direct instructions that would make my team just lump the ball foward instead of moving it on an intelligent way.

But if you want direct football without the hoofing AND not be a purely counter-attacking team, you have to raise your lines. Think about it: it all comes down to where you want to win the ball. If you win it in the opponent's half, then you can be direct without long balls from defence to attack (think Liverpool, Bayern).

Furthermore, in my experience with FM20, more direct passing is actually counter-productive when you want to achieve that style you want (FM21 can't come soon enough). See, this TI is always relative to your general settings, that is, your roles and duties, and, to a slightly lesser extent, team mentality. Which is why it works better if you're a possession-oriented team and want to give your attacks some much needed edge and stretch the opposition defence. More direct passing added to a setup already designed for direct attacks will result in wayward passes and lost possession. 

So, I think you have to choose the appropriate roles and duties first and foremost, because that will generally dictate your attacking style. Basically, you want to accomodate your target man, which can be done in various ways. In any case, you'll need at least three players who can play off him which gives you variety and potency to your attacks. Then, you can select mentality, depending on the level of risk-taking most suited for the coming game. Lastly, LASTLY, tinker with TI's when necessary.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Enzo_Francescoli

[engamohd]

7 hours ago, Zemahh said:

One thing to keep in mind though, is you always have to take both teams into account. Playing direct football is all well and good, but if, for example, the rest of your tactic is such opposition can barely move an inch out of their box, or they're unwilling to take any risks to begin with, there's never going to be any space for those long balls from back to front to be effective (i.e. opposition defenders always outnumbering your forwards). There's a reason such styles usually work best for counter-attacking underdogs, that's when opposition tends to overcommit very often and allows you to punish it on the break.

That's not to say Much More Direct Passing can't work though. Personally, I only use it when I'm desperately chasing a goal, but if I was to incorporate it into my standard tactic, I'd make sure my formation is such I always have enough numbers up front. For example, I can imagine it working nicely in a 3-4-3, where you A) don't want to take risks with short passing at the back, due to insufficient cover and B) have three players in advanced positions able to capitalize on those passes all the time. At the very least, I'd want to use multiple Attack duties that are making early runs and can support strikers quickly enough for them not to end up getting dispossessed on their own (to not go completely ballistic with risk-taking, I'd then also use a Cautious or Standard Mentality at most).

Anyway, apologies for the off-topic. Been following this thread with interest, since I, too, enjoy some Target Man shithousery. 

Thank you for your comments, it has been really enlightening for me. Since last night I have been tweaking more and more wanting to reach that spot where we play targetman shithousery (c) yet not being forced into a passive low block and resort to counter attack, which was always the main concern. So to boil down all the ideas set forth by your self, @Enzo_Francescoliand @Tsuru:

1. We need to restrict space afforded to the opponents.

2. Plenty of support to the Target man.

3. Take risks to force the opponents off guard / make mistakes.

A note regarding the formation, I disagree with the 3-4-3, while it will make you go forward with more danger, you are much more suspect defensively, and my not be able to win back the ball easily. Also after trying the 4-2-3-1, it gives the TM plenty of support, but I just hate the formation and can't stand using it, in addition to wanting to play the more classical 4-4-2.

Based on the foregoing, I thought to solve these issues we need to go with an attacking mentality to increase urgency and risks and increase the forward runs, in addition to implementing a more aggressive pressing. I also instructed the GK to throw the ball long and incorporated a DLP to attract the ball and slow down a bit the forward play. I came up with this:

To put this save in context, this is my Birmingham save, with no first transfer window and the team was trained in the preseason to play a 4-4-2 with much more direct passing. Thus the team is very familiar with the tactic, except with the more aggressive passing style.

The first game was an away game against a much more superior Leeds side We created a load of chances:

And our attacking play was spectacular:

The more urgent pressing works great with a direct style. It looks a lot like Liverpool but through a Target Man rather than movement, pace and flair.

I like here that we are forcing our way with the TM, time after time, giving Leeds less time to make a defensive transition. 

I'll keep you updated as the season goes.

[engamohd]

Another PERFECT hoofball goal against Cardiff

[Zemahh]

10 hours ago, engamohd said:

I came up with this:

Oh man, this looks sweet. Don't see Defensive Wingers being used too often (personally, I don't like the fact they have Dribble More and Run Wide hard-coded, so I tend to go either for a proper Winger, or a Wide Midfielder, if I want someone more conservative), but I imagine you must be a nightmare to play against. 

Anyway, I'm currently using something similar myself, an Attacking 4-4-2, but with default passing (Slightly More Direct) and a Much Higher Tempo. I also tried the Counter-Press and the Higher Line Of Engagement (goal was to break up opposition attacks while they're transitioning from back to front, rather than allow them to camp in my half), but I had a real problem against better teams. Midfield would often step up and if the press wasn't successful, my back line was completely exposed.

That's when I decided to drop both to default (defensive decision making is still fairly aggressive on Attacking Mentality anyway) and that seemed to solve most of my defensive issues.

[engamohd]

6 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Oh man, this looks sweet. Don't see Defensive Wingers being used too often (personally, I don't like the fact they have Dribble More and Run Wide hard-coded, so I tend to go either for a proper Winger, or a Wide Midfielder, if I want someone more conservative), but I imagine you must be a nightmare to play against. 

Anyway, I'm currently using something similar myself, an Attacking 4-4-2, but with default passing (Slightly More Direct) and a Much Higher Tempo. I also tried the Counter-Press and the Higher Line Of Engagement (goal was to break up opposition attacks while they're transitioning from back to front, rather than allow them to camp in my half), but I had a real problem against better teams. Midfield would often step up and if the press wasn't successful, my back line was completely exposed.

That's when I decided to drop both to default (defensive decision making is still fairly aggressive on Attacking Mentality anyway) and that seemed to solve most of my defensive issues.

Thank you! Certainly we give all teams a hard time. I have the same concerns about the pressing against superior opponents, but till now I have no issues, so I can't complain.

I'd drop the Much higher tempo shout. Attacking is already quick enough, and you to slow thing down a bit so that you can offer more threat following a long ball. I would go more direct on standard or slightly higher tempo.

 

 

[Tsuru]

I think the final result is very good @engamohd. Looks like you developed an excellent hoofball tactic, exploring the Target Man, being agressive and direct but not necessary playing on the counter.

Myself I am working on a quick transition style tactic using the Fluid Counter Attack as a starting point, probably the final version will be a 5-3-2. Your other topic about the 5-3-2 flat non-gegen also gave me some insights, maybe I will post it here on the forum later. I think I am more a fan of quick and speedy transitions than longball itself, so I will work on that.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Tsuru