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A guide to direct long ball, antifootball play - A Dyche's Burnley inspired 4-4-2


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8 minutes ago, carloshcorbalan said:

Hello...
looks interesting ...
uploaded link to download .....

Thank you. The tactic is exactly like the screenshots, no PIs or OIs. 

Just make sure that you have the proper players for the playstyle.

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Brilliant work! I just wonder if higher LOE plus two banks of four leave much more space for possession based opponents' defensive midfielder (maybe DLP)to operate and build up play? And what type of wingers would you prefer? Guys with explosive pace or those with higher work rates who can contribute more in defense?

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Hey excellent work! I've been trying to replicate a good Dyche tactic for a while but was never able to find success. Just wondering what would you consider changing when managing Burnley. I think I'm going to switch the strikers positions so it could suit Wood better, but I'll definitely try this tactic out!

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4 hours ago, NedXiong said:

Brilliant work! I just wonder if higher LOE plus two banks of four leave much more space for possession based opponents' defensive midfielder (maybe DLP)to operate and build up play? And what type of wingers would you prefer? Guys with explosive pace or those with higher work rates who can contribute more in defense?

Thank you! So far not much issues, my hardworking strikers contribute to pressing the DMs. Good idea though, I might change the PF to SS against possession sides with DLPs. 

Ideally the wingers would be both pacey and hardworking, but they don't exactly grow on trees, so I would go with the pacey tricksters, their pace and dribbling are absolutely crucial, just like Mahrez to title winning Leicester. 

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1 hour ago, Djeon36 said:

Hey excellent work! I've been trying to replicate a good Dyche tactic for a while but was never able to find success. Just wondering what would you consider changing when managing Burnley. I think I'm going to switch the strikers positions so it could suit Wood better, but I'll definitely try this tactic out!

Thanks! 

I don't think I'd change much except for the wingers to wide mids. Burnley don't have real wingers rather than McNeill, so anyone else would be a WM-A. 

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Great thread and the tactic seems to be working very well so a good job with that! 

Will you continue with millwall in the premiership? 

The only issue I possibly see is what happened with my villa side once we became favorites for the majority of the games, teams tend to sit back against you and the counter attacking direct style doesn't fare as well. I had to eventually drop down the passing to short which made my 3-5-2 setup a lot more effective. However it doesn't seem like you'll have to deal with this potential issue for a while. 

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12 hours ago, engamohd said:

Thanks! 

I don't think I'd change much except for the wingers to wide mids. Burnley don't have real wingers rather than McNeill, so anyone else would be a WM-A. 

Ok I'll def give it a try did you also add any PI's and OI's?

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2 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

Great thread and the tactic seems to be working very well so a good job with that! 

Will you continue with millwall in the premiership? 

The only issue I possibly see is what happened with my villa side once we became favorites for the majority of the games, teams tend to sit back against you and the counter attacking direct style doesn't fare as well. I had to eventually drop down the passing to short which made my 3-5-2 setup a lot more effective. However it doesn't seem like you'll have to deal with this potential issue for a while. 

Yeah I'd love to get Millwall to the top using this brand of football. 

I don't think I would face this issue against defensive teams since we are not a "counter attacking" direct style. Rather, we are an attacking direct team, so I hope we could continue using this as favourites. I had a couple of games against the bottom placed teams who parked the bus against me, we had a host of chances, so I am optimistic. 

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1 minute ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Great post @engamohd.

Only on question, regarding the LOE. 

You use a higher LOE, but don't you think your system would benefit by having a standard or even lower LOE and because of that a more compact formation when defending? 

Thanks mate!

Using target men up front means you are lacking pace up front, and hence I need my forwards to be closer to the goal to have a bigger threat by long balls.

However, balanced mentality and Standard D-Line makes us line in a sweet mid block that isn't too low that we are pinned in our box. This is an average defensive position from our last match, an away victory against Preston:

2aOCbMu.jpg

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On 21/09/2020 at 00:47, engamohd said:

Just make sure that you have the proper players for the playstyle.

I like this. 

Not doing extreme things, but still creating a distinguishable identity.

But what in Millwall's squad makes them especially suited for this style? After a readthrough, I'd be inklined to think this is 'generic' enough to suit many many clubs :)

Are you using a certain DNA approach in recruiting?

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1 hour ago, nugatti said:

I like this. 

Not doing extreme things, but still creating a distinguishable identity.

But what in Millwall's squad makes them especially suited for this style? After a readthrough, I'd be inklined to think this is 'generic' enough to suit many many clubs :)

Are you using a certain DNA approach in recruiting?

Thank you!

I agree there is nothing special at Millwall squad except for Jed Wallace. My choice is purely preferential, based on the fact that no one likes them and they are known for being "ugly" in playstyle, so it would be fun to develop this style with them.

My approach to recruiting is:

1. Suggest targets to DOF and leave negotiating and making offers to the DOF.

2. Players should have at least high workrate, teamwork, determination. Bravery and aggression are bonus but should be 12+.

3. Defensive players should have 13+ strength, positioning and tackling at least.

I also find that you will be frustrated until the team is fluid in the tactic. I admit I rage-quit several games where we had tonnes of CCCs and woodwork hits (5 and 4 in one particular game) and concede by a single long shot. I also started changing the pressing instructions since at times we could be easy to pass through.

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Great thread @engamohd! I really like the way you set targets for the tactic you planned to build and kept your decisions clear and simple. I have a few questions if you don't mind

  1. Do you mind elaborating on your choice of roles/duties? Following the theme of 'everything in the TC being interrelated' it would be nice to here how your choice of role/duties helped you to achieve your pre-determined goals
  2. How did you decide what mentality setting to use? I always find this to be the most confusing part of the TC, which is awful because it's often called the most important part. Why did you choose Balanced to achieve this style?
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5 hours ago, engamohd said:

Thank you!

I agree there is nothing special at Millwall squad except for Jed Wallace. My choice is purely preferential, based on the fact that no one likes them and they are known for being "ugly" in playstyle, so it would be fun to develop this style with them.

My approach to recruiting is:

1. Suggest targets to DOF and leave negotiating and making offers to the DOF.

2. Players should have at least high workrate, teamwork, determination. Bravery and aggression are bonus but should be 12+.

3. Defensive players should have 13+ strength, positioning and tackling at least.

I also find that you will be frustrated until the team is fluid in the tactic. I admit I rage-quit several games where we had tonnes of CCCs and woodwork hits (5 and 4 in one particular game) and concede by a single long shot. I also started changing the pressing instructions since at times we could be easy to pass through.

With the DOF in charge - does he also favour a direct style of play to enforce the club ethos?

Sensible attributes to focus on for sure, and I'll recommend you anticipation in the mix as well for defenders, wingers and forwards ;)

The passing through issue I normally try to (usually works very well) nullify with TI regroup and placing either LOE a notch down from balanced or LOD a notch up. But this would mean changes to your TIs. Just a suggestion. 

Another thought:

Is this the style out of the presets in the game you see as the style closest to the one you have created?

image.thumb.png.3a2bea18371f4d83fb5ac730c5ede5cb.png

Reading the description, I'd guess this is the most similar one. So it's really interesting that setting up a style quite differently actually can give a somewhat equal style of play.

With your tactic 'getting way' with many fewer TIs, I'd believe it is easier for teams to learn.

Any thoughts?

 

Edited by nugatti
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3 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

Great thread @engamohd! I really like the way you set targets for the tactic you planned to build and kept your decisions clear and simple. I have a few questions if you don't mind

  1. Do you mind elaborating on your choice of roles/duties? Following the theme of 'everything in the TC being interrelated' it would be nice to here how your choice of role/duties helped you to achieve your pre-determined goals
  2. How did you decide what mentality setting to use? I always find this to be the most confusing part of the TC, which is awful because it's often called the most important part. Why did you choose Balanced to achieve this style?

Thank you!

In reply to your points raised:

1. The back 4 and the GK are really standard, I want them defense first and leave the attacking role to be secondary. My midfield is currently BWM-D and BBM-S. I chose these roles since I need them to be the players to chase the ball, instead of increasing the Pressing slider for the whole team. The wingers need to dribble and cross, hence W-A. I have tried to set them to WM-A but I found that the Wingers work better. Strikers are my favoured hardworking partnership TM-S and PF-A, which are ideally for crossing and long balls.

2. I almost always start on Balanced. I view Mentality as a risk-reward balance. High mentality = High Risk. In my tactic, I don't want to be gung-ho and ping risky long balls and press frantically around the pitch, hence the Balanced Mentality.

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38 minutes ago, nugatti said:

With the DOF in charge - does he also favour a direct style of play to enforce the club ethos?

Sensible attributes to focus on for sure, and I'll recommend you anticipation in the mix as well for defenders, wingers and forwards ;)

The passing through issue I normally try to (usually works very well) nullify with TI regroup and placing either LOE a notch down from balanced or LOD a notch up. But this would mean changes to your TIs. Just a suggestion. 

Another thought:

Is this the style out of the presets in the game you see as the style closest to the one you have created?

image.thumb.png.3a2bea18371f4d83fb5ac730c5ede5cb.png

Reading the description, I'd guess this is the most similar one. So it's really interesting that setting up a style quite differently actually can give a somewhat equal style of play.

For your tactic 'getting way' with many fewer TIs, I'd believe it is easier for teams to learn.

Any thoughts?

 

I found that he choose to sign players similar to the roles in the primary selected tactic. I am happy with his selections to date.

Thanks for the tip, I agree Anticipation and Positioning are very critical for defenders and wingers.

Once again, I agree with you, this is exactly what I have done in the prem, I let the pressing to default and added the regroup to solidify our defensive shape.

I prefer using less TIs for reasons like easier to learn, and easier to debug. The preset Route One is quite passive for my liking, I prefer having more options in attack. 

 

This is the current version of my tactic.

TXcmBiW.jpeg

 

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28 minutes ago, nugatti said:

The penultimate match for your challenge; Beat the master at his game.

 

Millwall was far off the pace tonight

 

20242391-DCF2-4B9C-BF58-D7367464765B.jpeg

Thats the real test lol.

Hope Burnley don't get relegated any soon, like watching them in the Prem..

 

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2 minutes ago, engamohd said:

Almost a third of my goals are headers.

I don't use a direct football style in my current save (was doing it a bit in the previous one), but I find so many headers get caught by the keeper or go over. Is there a secret to how players should cross?

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My TM-S and PF-A combo are supposed to be a big man-small man duo. However, I was getting frustrated getting the ball lumped to the PF-A instead to the TM-S. This is probably caused by the "Much More Direct Passes" shout and the PF-A is the furthest available pass at any given time.

My solution was to use TM-A and let the small man be the PF-S. I have never used a TM-A to lead the line, but I had some solace watching Conte use Lukaku ahead of Lautauro in his Inter side. 

The results were immense, we are MUCH more clinical going forward -especially against attacking teams-, while the TM works much better in attack than on support, flicking passes to his partner and the winger. I also dabbled a lot with the pressing instructions to find a sweet spot between passive and high pressing. This is my current formation and instructions:

NeVon9J.jpg

Edited by engamohd
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13 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I don't use a direct football style in my current save (was doing it a bit in the previous one), but I find so many headers get caught by the keeper or go over. Is there a secret to how players should cross?

Not really, I just pick wingers with good crosses, and players able to get at the end of these crosses. Mind sharing your wide players' crossing, passing and technique attributes?

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8 minutes ago, engamohd said:

NeVon9J.jpg

I've been following this thread with interest, since I love that real English football :brock: :thup:

And of all the setups of roles and duties you've posted in this thread thus far, this is the one I like the most. The only change I personally would be inclined to make is switching the DLPde into a CMde - simply because I don't see much need for having a playmaker in this style of football. But if it works for you, then ignore my comment and just keep going :thup: 

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Excellent thread. I always try a hoofball approach in my saves, mostly with limited success :( this setup looks really nice and not too much reliant on hitting the opposition on the break which is a good sign if I want to use it with a stronger team.

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7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I've been following this thread with interest, since I love that real English football :brock: :thup:

And of all the setups of roles and duties you've posted in this thread thus far, this is the one I like the most. The only change I personally would be inclined to make is switching the DLPde into a CMde - simply because I don't see much need for having a playmaker in this style of football. But if it works for you, then ignore my comment and just keep going :thup: 

Thank you! I love this style a lot, it is similar to our "default" style here in Egypt. 

I chose DLP-D ahead of CM-D purely for the lower pressing of the DLP-D. The CM-D presses more, coupled with the More urgent shout makes him run amok. The DLP is more conservative, plus the added bonus of slowing the play a bit by attracting the ball until the forwards are in position.

Edited by engamohd
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4 minutes ago, kingjericho said:

Excellent thread. I always try a hoofball approach in my saves, mostly with limited success :( this setup looks really nice and not too much reliant on hitting the opposition on the break which is a good sign if I want to use it with a stronger team.

Cheers mate! We certainly can be assertive and actually attack the opponent wave after wave, not just hitting on the break.

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The timing of this thread arriving is spooky as earlier this week I was listening to the Zonal Marking podcast about Dyche's Burnley, hence my comment/quote above about it being a long pass not a long ball. As with most football podcasts, as I'm listening I can't he;p but think about how to apply the theories etc to FM.

Link is below for anyone interested in their discussion about Burnley and their tactics over the past four seasons in the EPL:

https://theathletic.com/podcast/145-zonal-marking/?episode=16

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44 minutes ago, Bruce Drundrige said:

The timing of this thread arriving is spooky as earlier this week I was listening to the Zonal Marking podcast about Dyche's Burnley, hence my comment/quote above about it being a long pass not a long ball. As with most football podcasts, as I'm listening I can't he;p but think about how to apply the theories etc to FM.

Link is below for anyone interested in their discussion about Burnley and their tactics over the past four seasons in the EPL:

https://theathletic.com/podcast/145-zonal-marking/?episode=16

Thanks for sharing, will deffo listen to it.

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9 hours ago, engamohd said:

Not really, I just pick wingers with good crosses, and players able to get at the end of these crosses. Mind sharing your wide players' crossing, passing and technique attributes?

Crossing is around 14 or higher, Technique is better in the forward wide players, but no player has lower than 12 in either Crossing or Technique (the left wing back has 12/12). Passing is 12/13 in the wide defenders, wide midfielders have 15+  I am AC Milan. The previous team was Valencia, and they had decent crossers, too.

I notice players wait to cross until they are at the very edge of the goal line, almost out of play. This means they often get blocked. How quickly do your players cross?

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2 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

Fantastic!! Does this happen often enough for your liking?

Considering we are the 3rd worst team in the league, yes it happens often enough after switching the strikers to TM-A and PF-S

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The DOF is turning out great. 

vV8UeCI.jpeg

I have the final say in confirming the transfers. However, he suggested Onguene, Kalinic, Esposito, Munoz, Palombi and Musso + the free backup U23 options. He's making great business too negotiating the prices. I will certainly write about the experience of having a DOF responsible for the transfers and contracts.

 

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3 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Crossing is around 14 or higher, Technique is better in the forward wide players, but no player has lower than 12 in either Crossing or Technique (the left wing back has 12/12). Passing is 12/13 in the wide defenders, wide midfielders have 15+  I am AC Milan. The previous team was Valencia, and they had decent crossers, too.

I notice players wait to cross until they are at the very edge of the goal line, almost out of play. This means they often get blocked. How quickly do your players cross?

Agree, the players wait until the goal line and have their crosses blocked. They don't do however in counters and with supporting wingers, who are supposed to cross from deep. I personally think this is more of a ME issue than tactical errors, since almost all wingers have this same issue.

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1 minute ago, engamohd said:

Agree, the players wait until the goal line and have their crosses blocked. They don't do however in counters and with supporting wingers, who are supposed to cross from deep. I personally think this is more of a ME issue than tactical errors, since almost all wingers have this same issue.

Both teams I've tried have at least one forward who is good in the air, but despite having many crosses and set pieces (oddly, the initial tactic encourages short passes, but players still cross a lot), the conversion rate is miserable. Do you tinker with cross type (Low, Whipped, Floated)?

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1 minute ago, Bunkerossian said:

Both teams I've tried have at least one forward who is good in the air, but despite having many crosses and set pieces (oddly, the initial tactic encourages short passes, but players still cross a lot), the conversion rate is miserable. Do you tinker with cross type (Low, Whipped, Floated)?

I never do, I like leaving this to the players. However, do your forwards get into positions where they could be target of crosses? Do you have someone attacking the far post? I think these are factors too.

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Just now, engamohd said:

I never do, I like leaving this to the players. However, do your forwards get into positions where they could be target of crosses? Do you have someone attacking the far post? I think these are factors too.

Yes, but usually, those headers fail miserably. My players must have poor judgement, because they don't target the tall striker as much as they should. I'm not having knock-downs, either.

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1 minute ago, Bunkerossian said:

Yes, but usually, those headers fail miserably. My players must have poor judgement, because they don't target the tall striker as much as they should. I'm not having knock-downs, either.

Could be poor off the ball, decisions, anticipation, teamwork. Plus, if you a strong team, pinning your opponents in the box, the defenders usually mark the taller one tightly, so that may make him unable to get to the end of a cross.

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27 minutes ago, engamohd said:

The DOF is turning out great. 

vV8UeCI.jpeg

I have the final say in confirming the transfers. However, he suggested Onguene, Kalinic, Esposito, Munoz, Palombi and Musso + the free backup U23 options. He's making great business too negotiating the prices. I will certainly write about the experience of having a DOF responsible for the transfers and contracts.

 

Those are some brilliant signings 

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7 minutes ago, engamohd said:

Could be poor off the ball, decisions, anticipation, teamwork. Plus, if you a strong team, pinning your opponents in the box, the defenders usually mark the taller one tightly, so that may make him unable to get to the end of a cross.

Ibra is guilty of horrible Teamwork. He is probably marked, but his physical strength should help. As of now, bunkered teams can comfortably take a battering of shots on goals (headers mostly), and concede none. Even when I have a big presence in the box. It's something that troubled me in both of my attempted saves on FM 20.

Edited by Bunkerossian
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39 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

Ibra is guilty of horrible Teamwork. He is probably marked, but his physical strength should help. As of now, bunkered teams can comfortably take a battering of shots on goals (headers mostly), and concede none. Even when I have a big presence in the box. It's something that troubled me in both of my attempted saves on FM 20.

We just scored this. 

The movement from Esposito is excellent, allows Jones to cross from the goal line.

B28N6gQ.gif

 

EDIT:
Another one late in the game
rdNT9ux.gif

Edited by engamohd
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