Tactical Challenges #5 (6?): White Board

[herne79]

I ran a series of challenges a couple of years ago which people seemed to enjoy (@westy8chimp).  I wasn't going to run any more but the above picture caught my eye recently and thought it might be a fun challenge.

The above is the white board background on the game's Main Menu.  Kind of an interesting formation I think.  (Edit due to comments - I'm fully aware it's actually a top down formation, but a 4123DM Wide wouldn't be something different for a "challenge").

So just for fun, the challenge:

Using any club you like (or create your own) develop a tactic using the above red bottom up "3232" formation.  Restrictions:

1) Avoid the sack.

2) The central Central Defender must be a Libero.  On the picture it has a small red line extending up, so I'm taking that as a defender who gets forward.

3) The left sided central midfielder should get forward more than the right sided one (again check the red line).

4) The central midfielder should also get forward (red line again).

(Tip - player Traits can also help players get forward, roles & duties aren't the only way).

5) Roles, duties, Mentality and all other tactical settings are your choice.

6) The player positioning is up to you, so long as you stay true to the original picture.  Be creative!  For example:

[BadAss88]

lol, red is playing without a keeper and an extremely advanced forward?

You totaly misinterpreted that white board 

[blackdevil]

Was going to say red is shooting down and blue shooting up...

Blue look to be playing a narrow 4-4-2 diamond whereas Red seem to be playing a 4-1-2-3 DM Wide or a 2-3-2-3 with wingbacks and a half back/anchor man.

On a side note I get the impression red is Barcelona and the blue is Real Madrid.

Edited September 7, 2020 by blackdevil

[warlock]

53 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

lol, red is playing without a keeper

Red keeper is standing in his own 6-yard box, clear as day.

But I am a bit confused. It looks to me like red is playing down, blue playing up so - for me - the lines indicate players dropping not pushing up. Here's a zoomed image that shows it a bit clearer:

In which case, I agree with @blackdevil - red is playing a 433dm with aggressive wingbacks and blue some kind of diamond with two strikers.

Edited September 8, 2020 by warlock

[BadAss88]

2 hours ago, warlock said:

Red keeper is standing in his own 6-yard box, clear as day.

But I am a bit confused. It looks to me like red is playing down, blue playing up so - for me - the lines indicate players dropping not pushing up. Here's a zoomed image that shows it a bit clearer:

In which case, I agree with @blackdevil - red is playing a 433dm with aggressive wingbacks and blue some kind of diamond with two strikers.

I know, but @herne79 didn't noticed that 

[blackdevil]

To bring the subject back to a tactical challenge what about using both of the formations in reverse as @herne79 initially thought, 3-5-2 variant and a 2-4-4 narrow diamond.  Could either or both during the season for some tactical variety. 

Could call it something like "Mike Bassett: white board challenge"

Edited September 8, 2020 by blackdevil

[herne79]

7 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

lol, red is playing without a keeper and an extremely advanced forward?

You totaly misinterpreted that white board 

Quote

I know, but @herne79 didn't noticed that 

I'm fully aware of the orientation of the White Board, but the "challenge" wouldn't be very original if I went with the top down 4123DM Wide formation.

I've updated the OP just to make it clear.

[Gegenklaus]

Nice idea. Isn’t it close to the tactic you are using in one of your saves? 

[herne79]

38 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Nice idea. Isn’t it close to the tactic you are using in one of your saves? 

Kind of similar.  That's based on a 4231 with just one striker and the back 4 shifted around to have 3 central defenders + a player at DMC with no fullbacks.

[westy8chimp]

good challenge as I was looking to just have a go at a quick 1 or 2 season save. you gave the game away a little bit in your second post.. my immediate thought was the middle image. But there's scope to be very inventive with roles and positions to achieve the right shape. ill let work know not expect me getting anything done this week. 

[Gegenklaus]

25 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Kind of similar.  That's based on a 4231 with just one striker and the back 4 shifted around to have 3 central defenders + a player at DMC with no fullbacks.

Interesting. Thomas Tuchel, in his time at Dortmund, talked about the 3-1-2-4 as the future of football. Because of the game and how all players are being trained to be more complete a formation like that would be doable - although Cruyff’s side played something similiar. Its a bit off topic, but it actually looks like a sort of 4-2-3-1 turned on its head. There is a short video of it here: 

The obvious main problem of systems like this is how you defend the wide areas - which is exactly what makes this challenge fun. I might give it a go.

 

 

[herne79]

31 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

ill let work know not expect me getting anything done this week. 

Pretty sure you don't need to tell them that .

20 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

although Cruyff’s side played something similiar

20 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

The obvious main problem of systems like this is how you defend the wide areas - which is exactly what makes this challenge fun.

Yup, 100% .

[westy8chimp]

@Gegenklaus Dortmund might be a good choice. I know its a big team...but I don't plan on making this a 10 year project and build a team for it. Gona have a look through some other squads now...finding a ready made libero writes off a certain level of team 

[Gegenklaus]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Pretty sure you don't need to tell them that .

Yup, 100% .

In theory a good way of defending in a formation like that is firstly with the ball. Control possession, recycle and have patience for the right opening for attacks. That's what I am thinking. Second is to do it from the front where you have the majority of your players. This is too interesting. Have to give it a go. 

[Gegenklaus]

12 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

@Gegenklaus Dortmund might be a good choice. I know its a big team...but I don't plan on making this a 10 year project and build a team for it. Gona have a look through some other squads now...finding a ready made libero writes off a certain level of team 

They have quite a versatile squad. If you use the newest database, they have Emre Can who could be functioning in a back three without support of fullbacks/wingbacks. 

Witsel might be a good choice for libero. Incredible intelligent and defensive capable. One of the best controllers in the game in my opinion. Sadly in the newest database they sold my favorite player Julian Weigl to Benfica.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Gegenklaus

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

In theory a good way of defending in a formation like that is firstly with the ball. Control possession, recycle and have patience for the right opening for attacks. That's what I am thinking. Second is to do it from the front where you have the majority of your players. This is too interesting. Have to give it a go. 

Pretty much spot on .

This has been my starting point (in a different save), just for some inspiration:

Which I've (rightly or wrongly) interpreted into (it's not a recreation, just some inspiration):

For this challenge I've then morphed that into:

(I may change Mentality from time to time).

The main issue (pretty much the only issue) is defending down the flanks.  So the steps I've taken to address this are:

1) Support duties at AML/R in combination with an unaggressive Mentality and players with decent levels of work rate.  This helps encourage my "wingers" to track back.  If I used attack duties, work shy players and/or an attacking mentality their defensive work would reduce.

2) An active midfield.  I could perhaps have kept a Carrilero role but with double BWM and complimentary players I get a pretty dynamic midfield.  (I also gave the BMW support the Get Further Forward PI to provide a little extra help in attack and to cover off the challenge).

3) Stopper duty central defenders.  As it says in game: "With a Stopper duty, the Central Defender will push ahead of the defensive line and close down players before they get to the area."  I don't have particularly aggressive CDs - if I did I may not need to use the Stopper duty as their own aggression might be enough to do this anyway.  Something to watch in your own defenders.

Hopefully you can see how I'm trying to defend from front to back, rather than just rely on my defenders to defend.

Overall this is a very possession heavy system which, as you rightly make note of, gets into defending with the ball.  This is from my recent match vs Fenerbahçe in the CL (we won 4-2):

However, having said all of that, issues are going to remain and with this formation we're not going to eliminate them all.  So it's more to do with managing as much of the risk as possible, not getting rid of it completely.  Here is Fenerbahçe's second goal as this demonstrates the defensive issues:

(Lemoine is my right sided Central Defender and he gets overloaded leaving a big hole in penalty area which they take full advantage of).

[westy8chimp]

interested particularly to see anyone who gets a libero working nicely. 

early days, but looks to me like the 'invisible wall' is still there. Little example here of build up where he does bring the ball out (has player trait to bring ball out and get further forward) .. lays it off... advances... all good but gets to halfway line and stops dead... and ends up in a flat 3. no difference in his behaviour from that point to his CB(d) partners. 

starts as the ball carrier … end of video you can see the player on the ball crying out for the libero to come and receive the pass short (tho it looks like I cut the clip short by a couple of seconds) 

 

[crusadertsar]

Yeah the invisible wall is still an issue for getting true libero behavior unfortunately. Even when he is on Attack Duty with aggressive traits.

[westy8chimp]

8 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah the invisible wall is still an issue for getting true libero behavior unfortunately. Even when he is on Attack Duty with aggressive traits.

does it ever get raised as a bug? id hoped when they went to the effort of changing it from a sweeper to a CB theyd also review its behaviour. 

maybe a new role will come out to address the increasing role of CBs in the attacking phase... get some Sheff Utd recreations on the go! 

its killing my setup a little bit, as in the short clip would help me recycle possession a lot better if the libero would come and show for the ball. 

[crusadertsar]

8 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

does it ever get raised as a bug? id hoped when they went to the effort of changing it from a sweeper to a CB theyd also review its behaviour. 

maybe a new role will come out to address the increasing role of CBs in the attacking phase... get some Sheff Utd recreations on the go! 

its killing my setup a little bit, as in the short clip would help me recycle possession a lot better if the libero would come and show for the ball. 

Unfortunately to my knowledge it's never been fixed. Libero still acts as CB mostly. Hopefully among many things it will be something they will address with FM21

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Pretty much spot on .

This has been my starting point (in a different save), just for some inspiration:

Which I've (rightly or wrongly) interpreted into (it's not a recreation, just some inspiration):

For this challenge I've then morphed that into:

(I may change Mentality from time to time).

The main issue (pretty much the only issue) is defending down the flanks.  So the steps I've taken to address this are:

1) Support duties at AML/R in combination with an unaggressive Mentality and players with decent levels of work rate.  This helps encourage my "wingers" to track back.  If I used attack duties, work shy players and/or an attacking mentality their defensive work would reduce.

2) An active midfield.  I could perhaps have kept a Carrilero role but with double BWM and complimentary players I get a pretty dynamic midfield.  (I also gave the BMW support the Get Further Forward PI to provide a little extra help in attack and to cover off the challenge).

3) Stopper duty central defenders.  As it says in game: "With a Stopper duty, the Central Defender will push ahead of the defensive line and close down players before they get to the area."  I don't have particularly aggressive CDs - if I did I may not need to use the Stopper duty as their own aggression might be enough to do this anyway.  Something to watch in your own defenders.

Hopefully you can see how I'm trying to defend from front to back, rather than just rely on my defenders to defend.

Overall this is a very possession heavy system which, as you rightly make note of, gets into defending with the ball.  This is from my recent match vs Fenerbahçe in the CL (we won 4-2):

However, having said all of that, issues are going to remain and with this formation we're not going to eliminate them all.  So it's more to do with managing as much of the risk as possible, not getting rid of it completely.  Here is Fenerbahçe's second goal as this demonstrates the defensive issues:

(Lemoine is my right sided Central Defender and he gets overloaded leaving a big hole in penalty area which they take full advantage of).

 

Really nice post @herne79. I think the point you raise here is important and something I also learned from Cleon's many threads: If you know your system, you also know it's weaknesses and the risk versus reward you take. An example; Cleon pressed high with one of his systems and wrote that this play style may result in a long ball over his defensive line that would eventually result conceding a goal. But he was fine with that because he knew that the reward you got from pressing high - in his specific system with the players he had - outweighed the negative sides of it. 
 

I am interested in how the Libero and Half Back combination looked like. What is your experience with that?

I myself has been using one formation only the last couple of FM's. And it's a flat 4-1-4-1 with a mid-high press. I like the defensive formation it gives you, and the attacking shapes you can create with it, so trying to make a system using a back three will be a fun challenge.
 

[herne79]

26 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

If you know your system, you also know it's weaknesses and the risk versus reward you take. An example; Cleon pressed high with one of his systems and wrote that this play style may result in a long ball over his defensive line that would eventually result conceding a goal. But he was fine with that because he knew that the reward you got from pressing high - in his specific system with the players he had - outweighed the negative sides of it. 

Exactly .

27 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

I am interested in how the Libero and Half Back combination looked like. What is your experience with that?

A bit meh tbh.  The Libero didn't really step up and the HB didn't really sit back.  If I could have been bothered I'd have changed it to maybe a CD cover + Defensive Midfielder or something but I was getting results so didn't bother changing things.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Malkael]

Real tempting to try out the top heavy 3-2-5 Wide formation for a challenge, so off we go to FC Edmonton in the Canadian Premier League to do some experimentation. Going to make full use of a long pre-season period to experiment with mentality, team instructions, player roles and duties, man-marking assignments and so on. Bearing in mind that it is only pre-season currently, still pretty chuffed that Ramon Soria produced this bit of play as my Libero in a pre-season friendly match against a 4-4-2. Given the number of teams that love to play a 4-4-2 in the Canadian Premier League, having Soria step up into and past the midfield line could be rather fruitful if we can get him to replicate this often in competitive games.

Be interesting to see how we fare once I lock in my finalised version of the tactic, definitely got some adjustments to make, and we achieve peak tactical familiarity. Will be keeping a keen eye on how 29 year-old Spaniard Ramon Soria performs as my Libero over a season.

[herne79]

4 minutes ago, Malkael said:

pretty chuffed that Ramon Soria produced this bit of play as my Libero

Soria is the player who made the final through ball?

[Malkael]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Soria is the player who made the final through ball?

Aye, that was Soria alright. Gleefully made the run up the middle to offer himself as a passing option for my AML (David Doe) that was driving through midfield and then played the final ball right down the middle for Tomi Ameobi (STCR) to finish in the box. 

[Amarante]

This was what i needed to play FM20 again. In FM17 i played a 3-3-3-1 diamond and dominated everything scoring  +100 goals every season.  I shall attempt to replicate this dynasty in FM20. Wish me luck! 

 

Major problems so far, we're being ripped apart on the wings and thats bad very bad. i know the weakness of this tactics but i have no clue on how to stop teams from tearing us a new one down the wings. 

v

Edited September 9, 2020 by Amarante

[herne79]

4 hours ago, Amarante said:

i have no clue on how to stop teams from tearing us a new one down the wings.

There's been some discussion on that above which may help give you some ideas.  If not then post your system + detail of some of some of your key players (such as your wide players) and someone may be able to help further.

[crusadertsar]

7 hours ago, Amarante said:

This was what i needed to play FM20 again. In FM17 i played a 3-3-3-1 diamond and dominated everything scoring  +100 goals every season.  I shall attempt to replicate this dynasty in FM20. Wish me luck! 

 

Major problems so far, we're being ripped apart on the wings and thats bad very bad. i know the weakness of this tactics but i have no clue on how to stop teams from tearing us a new one down the wings. 

v

Good luck scoring 100+ goals per season in FM20. Work on your set pieces.

[Amarante]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

There's been some discussion on that above which may help give you some ideas.  If not then post your system + detail of some of some of your key players (such as your wide players) and someone may be able to help further.

Yes, i went over some of them a think my issue might lie in how to get my wingers to track the runners if i should have them mark positions or mark players. I've never used the mark positions before so am bit unsure on how they work, Should the AML mark the rightback position and AMR mark leftback?

 

And what would that do to our defensive shape, wouldn't that pull us out of shape. 

[herne79]

20 minutes ago, Amarante said:

Yes, i went over some of them a think my issue might lie in how to get my wingers to track the runners if i should have them mark positions or mark players. I've never used the mark positions before so am bit unsure on how they work, Should the AML mark the rightback position and AMR mark leftback?

 

And what would that do to our defensive shape, wouldn't that pull us out of shape. 

Why are you using the AML/R positions?

I never use specific marking settings (others do I know).  Do my AML/R players track back as often as a fullback would?  No of course not but with the right player in the right system they'll still carry out some defensive work.  So if I used a work shy player, give him an attack duty and use the Attacking Mentality I wouldn't expect him to do much (if any) defensive work.  But if I used a player with a great work ethic, give him a support (or defend) duty combined with a more risk averse Mentality I'd expect to see him back in his own half more often.  This challenge is actually about balancing risk vs reward, not how to set up a 3232 formation .

But I've no idea what you're doing so can't really advise:

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

post your system + detail of some of some of your key players (such as your wide players) and someone may be able to help further.

 

[Malkael]

Personally, so far I have experimented with a Defensive mentality, support duties at AML\R, and then applying 'Look for the Underlap' to further decrease the player mentality even further. Seems to work pretty well in general for getting the AML\R to track back and be wary of runs from opposition players in the FB, WB or ML\R slots, still need to test against formations that use AML\R though.

Certainly not faultless when facing formations that have two wide players, because sometimes the AML\R will pass the more advanced opposition wide player onto our wide centreback to go press the second opposition wide player. Surprisingly, decently functional so far though despite being a Canadian Premier League team, which as you might guess means seeing AML\R's with a Work Rate of 13 or higher is kinda rare.

Going with the first, deeper lying, interpretation of the 3-2-3-2 offered by Herne (called 3-2-3-2 DM in the game) should allow for better defensive solidity, in theory at least. Currently, I figure the best way to protect my flanks is to utilise the top heavy advantage of the more advanced 3-2-3-2 (3-2-5 in the game) to play a high pressing game that forces the opposition into hurried clearances and inaccurate long balls, rather than letting them have time to measure an accurate pass out to the flanks. Anyone trying to play out of their half with 4 at the back is getting greeted by their whole backline being marked or harried, whilst the AMC makes it hard for a midfielder to drop back and casually collect the ball.

[g1nh0]

Hello all. I saw this yesterday, a great idea for a challenge this. It’s the first one I’ve taken up. =)

I ran this in originally a save I have second season in with Liverpool so I’ve got an extremely strong squad. Appreciate it could be tougher =) But nevertheless, expectations would be to win trophies so I figured it’s not a bad place to just judge whether this can work successfully as a formation.

After this, I decided to do a season with Chester in the Vanerama North for a harsh comparison.

A bit of information on my system before I go any further.

Well I went with the top-heavy version of the 3232 shape. The modern game is gegenpressing based, and with 5 players up top all in close proximity I chose to go this route, relying on quick / high quality defenders and a real workhorse in midfield to try and keep things as tight as possible at the back – which undoubtedly as a whole won’t be tight at all =)

I wasn’t 100% sure with the restrictions with players getting forward, so a brief run down on the roles and forward PIs I have in play.

1-      Libero on support

2-      Mezzala support as Left Centre Mid (get forward often)

3-      Ball Winning Mid support as Right Centre Mid (hold position)

4-      The Central Midfielder (I assumed was the effective AM of the midfield trio?) is on get forward often

The restrictions made me end up creating a tactic that for the first ever time has included a Raumdeuter role.

Here are my complete roles and TIs

A Focus Down the Left

The idea I ended up having, was without any natural width or full back support on the right side for the more usual role of a winger or inside forward, was to instead focus the play on the left hand side of the formation, whereby the left centre midfield who gets forward more often could effectively act as this flank support..

Using a left winger on attack for the natural width, a mezzala on support duty I chose to work in conjunction with the winger aiming to regularly create overloads. To do this, using the underlap option was also used to help bring the mezzala into play very regularly.

A deep lying forward would also drift deeper and a little wider.in the hope was it would create space in the middle for the AMC getting forward regularly or winger cutting inside to then exploit.

I also hoped that by focusing play down the left side with this additional movement, it will create some nice intricate play in this specific area of the pitch, with the objective of both causing the opponents problems and sucking them into that area.

Raumdeuter to Run Riot

With all this attention needing to be paid on this left side, I then hoped it would free a little more space for a roaming Raumdeuter on the far right hand side to move into and exploit from the additional space created.

Defensively of course this had to use a high defensive line / and I maximised the LOE to press very intensively, whilst immediately looking to hit on the counter once the ball was won high up the pitch, where we would be in a great position to do so with our offensive players positioning in their third.

Centrebacks would move wider to allow for better ball retention and progression up the pitch, on cover duties to cover both the highly exposed flanks and Libero moving up to support the midfield from a deeper position.

Success - Employment Status Remains

Well it’s by far from a great tactic, but I was happy enough with the results.

Firstly I was happy I didn’t get sacked playing this way =), and to my further surprise, albeit extremely lucky in both of my test seasons, we scraped past the line well in each save. I’ve always liked to think that luck is a skill =)

Liverpool

With Liverpool we won the EPL, albeit with a shy 87 points. But we also won the Carabao beating Arsenal in the final, and the ECL coming from 3 goals down to beat Man U 4-3 AET.

Surprisingly we weren’t that bad at the back, and I would have expected more goals going forward given the focus on a more offensive and high pressing game.

Having Van Dijk and De Ligt at the back though undoubtedly would help to cover the clear weaknesses in the system.

Chester

With Chester, again a very low general league points tally. We took home 1^st place again with only 80 points.

But a complete different contrast with our goals scored and against. Scoring over 100, but conceding not too far off that number as well!!

Somehow we managed to win more often than lose. Quite miraculous in all honesty. But I'm sure in another save with another club, sacking would be a great possibility

I’m sure a lot better variants will come in time, but I’m very happy I gave this one a go, and it was great for the first time to use and see the Raumdeuter role at work.

Edited September 9, 2020 by g1nh0

[herne79]

@g1nh0 Nice write up .  With that Mentality and the attacking roles you've perhaps gone down the overpower route which is great as you take full advantage of your well placed front 5 to hammer the opposition and outscore them.  As you've found at Chester especially, you're pretty much wide open in defence but with such a potent attack it doesn't really matter.

It's a different take on risk vs reward - maximum risk for maximum reward.

[Amarante]

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

Why are you using the AML/R positions?

I never use specific marking settings (others do I know).  Do my AML/R players track back as often as a fullback would?  No of course not but with the right player in the right system they'll still carry out some defensive work.  So if I used a work shy player, give him an attack duty and use the Attacking Mentality I wouldn't expect him to do much (if any) defensive work.  But if I used a player with a great work ethic, give him a support (or defend) duty combined with a more risk averse Mentality I'd expect to see him back in his own half more often.  This challenge is actually about balancing risk vs reward, not how to set up a 3232 formation .

But I've no idea what you're doing so can't really advise:

 

 

That's the new shape am going with. I was thinking of adapting a 3-2-5 with ML/MR but i'm not sure how the attacking output is. Also i've a weird Fetish with goal scoring inside forwards as I've never been able to repliate my MSN style tactic in FM 19/20 Where the IF is scoring and assisting. 

[herne79]

59 minutes ago, Amarante said:

 

That's the new shape am going with. I was thinking of adapting a 3-2-5 with ML/MR but i'm not sure how the attacking output is. Also i've a weird Fetish with goal scoring inside forwards as I've never been able to repliate my MSN style tactic in FM 19/20 Where the IF is scoring and assisting. 

You're not using the right formation.  3-2-3-2 is the challenge .

If you're not sure about using ML/R, try it.  See what you can come up with, perhaps use roles you wouldn't normally use.  It's all part of the challenge.

[westy8chimp]

I've been a little loose with the formation too; 

The 3232 is there tho as the WB is essentially winger. Volante the left sided mid of the 3 joins attack, as does BBM. Parolo and Savic have traits to emphasise this too. 

TQ is a bit of a con not naturally going to form a front two. Perhaps should be a SS or DLF instead... but its Luiz Alberto and i'm in Italy. 

Bastos should make a good Lib. Some of the key players and their traits; 

 

 

How we look in attacking transition.. not many numbers in the box, but the runs coming from SV and BBM. Immobile off the ball so good he's often enough on his own. TQ both shows for the ball and acts as second striker in many cases. 

Defense is terrible - goes to a very narrow and quite deep 442. This was the first match and immediately see going to have issue against any decent side that wants to play out from the back. Double pivot naturally pushes CBs a bit deeper I believe. Possible tweak could be to push the lines up to press more aggressively. Or rethink positions/roles to bring in carillero or bwm 

Libero I already showed rally doesn't contribute anything. It's nice to see like it could work though from the user above? So maybe mine is being hindered by the BBM or double pivot. 

The DW on defend offers a good outlet, but doesn't do much with it... so our attacks are one dimensional - but potent... coming from Lazarri. Alberto finds him in space time and time again and majority of goals are Alberto laying off to Lazarri to cross for Immobile. 

Was going to do a thread but haven't got as much time as id hoped to go into detail... I did end up changing things round a bit. 

this passage of passive defending against Utd was the trigger... poor pressing, too deep, was a game of attack vs defence where we lucked a 0-0 but could have been 4-0

Tactic 2.0 sees Savic become CM-A and acts much more like a second striker than the TQ was. DW changed to support. Anchor to DLP to do the ball recycling I was missing from the libero

D-line much higher. 

 

Works a lot better and Savic has since scored 5 in 8 with more direct runs into the box so he's now in and around the penalty spot when the cross comes in instead of on the edge. 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

Libero I already showed rally doesn't contribute anything. It's nice to see like it could work though from the user above? So maybe mine is being hindered by the BBM or double pivot. 

Yeh.  While there is certainly room for improvement on how the Libero functions, he needs a clear path through the midfield if he's going to stand any chance at all of making an impact much beyond the half way line.

[Malkael]

To kick off a discussion about how to possibly go about getting more from your Libero, here's my base tactic so far. The midfield duo are asked to 'Get Wider' to open up the space in between them, as you may notice in my earlier gif, so that the Libero has space to move into (or beyond) my midfield line. That allows him space to move into with the ball at his feet, or present himself as a passing option in midfield during ball circulation, or attack into said space either during transitions or when an opportunity to offer a third-man run exists. Which given Soria only plays on a Positive mentality for me at Libero due to my Team Mentality and other tactical considerations, it does make me wonder how he'd go with an even more aggressive risk-taking mentality.

And here's Soria profile, who due to the lack of any fullbacks, was deemed a good fit to convert into my Libero at this level due to his attributes and positional familiarity at centreback. As you can see though, he has no Player Preferred Moves to try and entice him further forwards like 'Gets Forward Whenever Possible'. So on paper at least, Soria could be made to be even more likely to get forwards with or without the ball at his feet. One other consideration to take note of is that formations like the 4-4-2 can be particularly vulnerable to how our midfield works, our AMC either has to be left free or marked by one of the opposition midfield two, which leaves the other opposition central midfielder with a lot of ground to cover to combat the deeper lying midfield 2 or 3 (depending on where Soria is at the time).

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Malkael said:

To kick off a discussion about how to possibly go about getting more from your Libero

I'll add a couple of clips below from my recent game vs Southampton.  For context, Saliba (transfer listed by Arsenal for just £4m the mugs) is my Libero with an attack duty, Guendouzi is my BWM defend.  Watch their movement.

In the first clip we can see that whilst Saliba never actually touches the ball, he's advanced well into opposition territory with Guendouzi staying back to cover.  (It's also a lovely cut inside off the wing + through ball from Asensio for the goal btw).  I like the Libero's movement here - he takes up a relatively advanced position to help out in case of need.  Which brings me onto clip 2:

Again Saliba is advancing with Guendouzi tucking in, but this time Saliba is involved at different stages of the attack.  He's positioned nicely as an outlet for his more advanced team mates.  ok the attack eventually breaks down, but that's not the point.

One thing I do want to look out for is the increased risk.  We're already dealing with a somewhat risky formation, so having an advancing Libero as well might be a step too far on occassion.  Again this comes back to balancing risk vs reward (the point of this challenge) therefore I want to keep an eye on this aspect.

[Amarante]

17 hours ago, herne79 said:

You're not using the right formation.  3-2-3-2 is the challenge .

If you're not sure about using ML/R, try it.  See what you can come up with, perhaps use roles you wouldn't normally use.  It's all part of the challenge.

Okay So i have to use that formation No probs. 

[herne79]

15 minutes ago, Amarante said:

Okay So i have to use that formation No probs.

Well, it's not a hard and fast rule .

[herne79]

17 minutes ago, herne79 said:

One thing I do want to look out for is the increased risk.  We're already dealing with a somewhat risky formation, so having an advancing Libero as well might be a step too far on occassion.  Again this comes back to balancing risk vs reward (the point of this challenge) therefore I want to keep an eye on this aspect.

This is kind of what I mean.  Guendouzi gets caught in possession with Saliba having stepped up from the defensive line.  We recover a bit to put the ball carrier under some pressure and he scuffs his shot, but this could have been much worse.

[Malkael]

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

One thing I do want to look out for is the increased risk.  We're already dealing with a somewhat risky formation, so having an advancing Libero as well might be a step too far on occassion.  Again this comes back to balancing risk vs reward (the point of this challenge) therefore I want to keep an eye on this aspect.

That balancing of the risk-reward ratio is something that is always on my mind, especially with trying to mitigate for potential player errors that could lead to turnovers in dangerous areas. So far though, Soria seems to have a good sense of when to be conservative and when to involve himself in influencing the play. For example, here you'll notice we are up against a 4-1-2-1-2 (4-4-2 Narrow Diamond) congesting the middle of the park and attempting to shut down our ability to play through the middle of the park. First, the presence of the opposition AMC made Soria a bit more conservative in his positioning to guard against threat of the opposition AMC during transitions. Secondly, playing a midfield diamond vastly simplifies marking assignments for our opposition, directly countering our own ability to make a diamond in midfield through our AMC, widened MCR and MCL, and Libero.

So a more subdued performance, however, that didn't stop Soria from still producing a key highlight by choosing the right moment to present for the ball, receive the pass and drive into the space available, all before threading it out wide to our AMR and picking up an assist thanks to Bruno Zebie (AMR) smashing the ball home into the bottom far corner. Which I must say is quite the finish for someone who supposedly has a 5 for Finishing ability...

[g1nh0]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

Yeh.  While there is certainly room for improvement on how the Libero functions, he needs a clear path through the midfield if he's going to stand any chance at all of making an impact much beyond the half way line.

That was something I didn't mention but it also influenced playing me playing very top heavy. Having room between the defensive and midfield I hoped it would naturally bring and promote the libero into the game. move into this free space and be a more telling influence.

If you wanted to try and use a more offensive libero, I'd probably try my luck dropping the two DMs from my system down maybe use a half-back / volante combo and end up pressing with a high LOE like in my first system but a lower defensive line, and tweak the style,  front 5  / offensive strategy a bit.

 

[Amarante]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

This is kind of what I mean.  Guendouzi gets caught in possession with Saliba having stepped up from the defensive line.  We recover a bit to put the ball carrier under some pressure and he scuffs his shot, but this could have been much worse.

Yes those are killing me. At this moment its really a 50/50 and am pulling my hair out. Will dominate the ball and do nothing with it then get hit on the counter. This one is making me having to micro-manage everything and watch full games. 

 

It's challenging.

 

Made some more aggresive tweaks combined some instructions from my Bayern Replication tactic:

Edited September 10, 2020 by Amarante

[scratchmonkey]

I wanted to give this a try using an older save file from my current career, that being that a while back at Torino, I had a defender who I feel has a lot of great attributes for being a Libero:

With this being such a top-heavy formation; I feel like the main challenge is mitigating the defensive frailties down the flanks. The obvious solution, and the one that would work best with this year's ME, is to go for a Gegenpress-style pressure-cooker of a tactic where you use your numbers up to to prevent them from getting a decent ball upfield and create chances via turnovers. I decided I wanted to try something more...Italian:

There's no traditional holding role in CM because I want the Libero to move up into that position, with the hope that the CAR and the BBM with 'Stay Wider' will allow for more defensive cover on the flanks behind the wide AMs. I've also instructed the LCB and the RCB to Stay Wide along with Defending Wide in the hope that this will help them close down/pick up attackers coming in from the wide AM positions. The Much Shorter and Much Slower ball movement, along with Slowing the Pace Down, and Holding Shape, is intended to allow the Libero time during the possession phase to get upfield and dictate play. Having a Standard Defensive Line and a Lower LOE is intended to provide vertical compactness while hopefully getting the AML and AMR closer to my penalty area when they take up defensive positions. The higher pressing is a shot in the dark to try and get my wide CBs to close down runners from out wide (in combination with their wider positions both in and out of possession).

So, first game is home, against a decent Genoa side. How did it do?

Well, pretty mixed. On the bright side, we totally dominated possession. On the other hand, they managed a ton of shots and actually had more good chances than we did. At home, against lesser opposition, that's pretty bad.

How did the Libero do though?

Actually, I'm pretty happy with this. Although most of his activity was within or just outside of our own third, he still managed to get on the ball and provide a presence in the middle third, and broke into the final third a non-insubstantial amount of times. He also managed three Key Passes, all of which were raking balls out to the wide attackers, one of which led to our goal.

I'm considering making the AMC a Treq as a way to potentially get more balls into the central area, as well as making as a little more adventurous going forward. I'm not entirely sure what to do defensively, aside from possibly pulling back my defensive lines even further.

[Malkael]

Been predominately occupied with a return to my attempts to help replicate Marco Giampaolo's 4-3-1-2 recently. However, I did have some time recently to try out the Libero with the deeper lying 3-2-3-2 variant of the formation to see how the presence of players in the DM strata would affect matters. Can definitely say that you have to be more thoughtful about your duties and roles if you decide upon having a midfield pair in the DM strata as it's a lot easier to nullify your Libero, far more likely to negatively impact your Libero's ability to influence games if he's being crowded out in the same areas of the pitch by the deep lying midfield duo in front of him. Either the midfield duo in front of the Libero need to split very wide to give him room to operate, be given roles and duties that push them up the pitch and vacate the space of the DM strata for the Libero, or a employ a combination of the two movement strategies.

Having a narrow central band of three deep lying midfielders during build up, perhaps understandably, in most cases takes away from the Libero's ability to make his mark on games. Really does not seem to help the Libero's ability to get beyond that deeper lying position and into more advanced positions either, though I guess that is still an improvement on the "doesn't go past the halfway line" that some people seem to experience. Certainly possible to work an aggressive Libero into the deeper lying 3-2-3-2 variant of the challenge's formation choices, but definitely got to give the player movement and positioning a lot more thought compared to using the more aggressive option of the '3-2-5 Wide' if you want the Libero to exert an influence on games. Having that midfield duo pushed up to the Midfield strata makes a world of difference in terms of ease of setting up something that will work, you can literally play two Central Midfielders on Defend and often still have the Libero be decently involved in play (Does work best if they are asked to 'Play Wider' too).