I'm really getting sick of this...

[Manicbruv]

I pray they improve finishing in FM21

 

[Carambau]

Oh not again

[Huey Lewis]

48 minutes ago, Manicbruv said:

I pray they improve finishing in FM21

Yes because it's finishing which needs improving. These matches would have been much more true to life had they finished 2-4, 3-1 and 5-0. 

[Manicbruv]

 

5 minutes ago, Huey Lewis said:

Yes because it's finishing which needs improving. These matches would have been much more true to life had they finished 2-4, 3-1 and 5-0. 

Because scoring a single 1v1 out of 5 is realistic?

[Pasonen]

Theres so many other things than simple finishing to improve to get overall match experience better. Tbh the more I have watched and looked for bugs in fm20 the more I have learned how close this game is to be very good. I'm excited how good fm21 will be.. I got a feeling its going to be great.

[Huey Lewis]

9 minutes ago, Manicbruv said:

Because scoring a single 1v1 out of 5 is realistic?

Not every one of those chances would have been a 1v1, that's not what a clear cut chance is. But regardless, conversion rates for clear cut chances are anywhere between 25-50% as documented here - https://eplindex.com/27890/how-well-does-your-team-convert-chances-premier-league-stats-comparison.html

So yeah, realistically it's probably closer to 35-40%, so roughly 2 in 5 should be scored. So is it perfect? No. Is it in the ballpark of realism? Yes. 

[sporadicsmiles]

These things are posted periodically, and every time they show you nothing. There is zero context about the games, about the chances, about the shots. So nobody can say you were hard done by, or anything like that. What sort of chances were you creating? How were they missed? Why were they missed? 

And given that the game cannot tell the difference between a user team and an AI team when it calculates matches, why does this not affect the AI in the same way? Why did Manchester City score 2 goals from 5 shots total in the second post? What were those goals like? What did the AI do better than you to create those chances? I can also point out that you conceded 2 goals in the first screen shot after losing a player, but you do not indicate how you tried to defend the lead you had. What formation did you change to, how did you react to Manchester City likely going very attacking in that situation? Just posting stats without any context does not tell anyone anything about whether those games are fair or not.

Of course there are improvements to be made to the ME, which I have not particularly enjoyed this year. But posts like this simply do not show anything except that the OP is angry that he failed to win games or failed to score enough goals. 

 

[dolph11]

30 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

These things are posted periodically, and every time they show you nothing. There is zero context about the games, about the chances, about the shots. So nobody can say you were hard done by, or anything like that. What sort of chances were you creating? How were they missed? Why were they missed? 

And given that the game cannot tell the difference between a user team and an AI team when it calculates matches, why does this not affect the AI in the same way? Why did Manchester City score 2 goals from 5 shots total in the second post? What were those goals like? What did the AI do better than you to create those chances? I can also point out that you conceded 2 goals in the first screen shot after losing a player, but you do not indicate how you tried to defend the lead you had. What formation did you change to, how did you react to Manchester City likely going very attacking in that situation? Just posting stats without any context does not tell anyone anything about whether those games are fair or not.

Of course there are improvements to be made to the ME, which I have not particularly enjoyed this year. But posts like this simply do not show anything except that the OP is angry that he failed to win games or failed to score enough goals. 

 

I would say the evidence he has given is sufficient enough to show a bit of a problem. Of course, we know football is a funny old game but when something like this happens and it's consistent I tend to believe the player. I can't just dismiss another person's claim and what they've seen in their games.

I myself, currently playing in The Uruguayan Premier have encountered similar problems. I won the Second division in my first season and won the Premier in my 3rd as well as the Copa Sudamericana. I have no problems with success on this game, neither do I download tactics, I feel that's important to clear up. 

However, my striker misses countless opportunities. I do play with a lone striker but he just rarely scores. I'll upload a picture when I get chance but this season so far, 6 games, 18 shots, 5 on target, 0 goals. My team have scored 12 in 6 league games which is 2 per game. You'll have to take my word that he's had good opportunities. Last season he scored 3 all season. It's radically low for a team that won the league. 

I'm in a bit of a rush now but I will provide proof/evidence to backup what I'm saying when I get a chance. It's time consuming, otherwise I'd be here every day highlighting problems.

[herne79]

28 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

I would say the evidence he has given is sufficient enough to show a bit of a problem. Of course, we know football is a funny old game but when something like this happens and it's consistent I tend to believe the player. I can't just dismiss another person's claim and what they've seen in their games.

I myself, currently playing in The Uruguayan Premier have encountered similar problems. I won the Second division in my first season and won the Premier in my 3rd as well as the Copa Sudamericana. I have no problems with success on this game, neither do I download tactics, I feel that's important to clear up. 

However, my striker misses countless opportunities. I do play with a lone striker but he just rarely scores. I'll upload a picture when I get chance but this season so far, 6 games, 18 shots, 5 on target, 0 goals. My team have scored 12 in 6 league games which is 2 per game. You'll have to take my word that he's had good opportunities. Last season he scored 3 all season. It's radically low for a team that won the league. 

I'm in a bit of a rush now but I will provide proof/evidence to backup what I'm saying when I get a chance. It's time consuming, otherwise I'd be here every day highlighting problems.

I get what you're saying and there is always room for improvement, however by the same token as you saying this I could also highlight that my lone striker scores for fun and just won the Ballon D'Or, World Player of the Year, Golden Shoe and CL Golden Boot all in the same year (it's Moussa Dembele btw, hardly CR7 lol).  Then again in a different save my League Two lone striker scored 26 in 39 games last season (and has scored 10 in 20 appearances so far this season), being played as an F9.

So who's right and who's wrong?  Well both of us and neither of us because as sporadic correctly points out, it's all contextual.

[dolph11]

44 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I get what you're saying and there is always room for improvement, however by the same token as you saying this I could also highlight that my lone striker scores for fun and just won the Ballon D'Or, World Player of the Year, Golden Shoe and CL Golden Boot all in the same year (it's Moussa Dembele btw, hardly CR7 lol).  Then again in a different save my League Two lone striker scored 26 in 39 games last season (and has scored 10 in 20 appearances so far this season), being played as an F9.

So who's right and who's wrong?  Well both of us and neither of us because as sporadic correctly points out, it's all contextual.

I don't disagree with you here, but what I would say was that Sporadicsmiles' first couple of sentences were a little disingenuous, to say the least. I'm not saying it's an overall problem within the game, but it's quite obviously affected a fair few people who post on here, at least. I find some posters to be easily dismissive of the problem. 1-on-1's are definitely a problem and I do see a lot of easy chances saved by ordinary keepers. 

 

I have had players score a sizeable amount of goals before during a season (different save where I dominated the Welsh Prem) but a lot of the goals came sporadically and in big numbers. For example, a hat-trick one game but then no goals for 5 games followed by 2 goals in a game then no goals for 3 games (this is not the exact data! Just an example to give you an idea). I don't think I've had a striker on here score in 5 or six games in a row, for example, even in a season when I've won the league and the striker has had over 100 shots throughout the season.

 

It's early days but I'd say in a couple of seasons I'll be dominating the Uruguayan league so I'll look in-depth when that happens.  

Edited August 20, 2020 by dolph11

[dolph11]

Here is my last game, of course, this is a one-off and isn't empirical data, but it does show the type of game I see often and it is an absolute ball-ache to score despite creating great opportunities. Let me be clear, I'm not annoyed or posting out of anger, just showing what I see. This was away in the Copa Libertadores, how I didn't score is beyond me. 

[IbrahimAliMaher]

Easy fix, just go back to FM19 and get yourself a Valerio Ventola

[ajw10]

Heres some context

I batter Brighton, finally score on 48. Brighton score straight away from a corner. The scorer had 6 jumping reach and 8 heading. My players who have around 15-17 finishing as well as good composure/technique etc hit it straight at the keeper. Their keeper gets a 7.6 which is basically a 10.

I have loads of these examples, so many games where we miss loads of chances and concede from their first shot. 

[ajw10]

And then my team do this. I don't get it

[dolph11]

OK, a little more context here and with it I'll be a little more in-depth and hopefully we can have a discussion as it seems to have gone quiet on here. For some reason I can only upload two images at a time which is hugely frustrating and time consuming, but here goes. 

 

As you can see, I finished second in the opening stage of the Uruguayan league but again, it felt wrong. I was absolutely dominating but then out of nowhere my team folded. We were over-achieving despite winning it last year. I can't really complain with second place. That being said when I say my team folded it didn't feel like that, it FELT like it was scripted. CCC's seemingly not being counted and my forward players literally passing it back to the opposition keeper in what looked like a denial of physics when clear through on goal. If I knew how to upload highlights I would. 

 

I will follow with the games my team 'capitulated' in. Some were close but others were not. I know some of the feedback (if I get any) will be 'not enough context' or some scrutiny of my opportunities but when compared with the oppositions opportunities I feel that would be only to serve their own purpose of criticising people who show weaknesses in the game. 

[dolph11]

Before I go through the matches individually, here is my strikers' stats for the season. 1 goal in a team that scored 23 league goals. Incredibly bad. He had 40 shots in his 14 games, which is a decent amount, yet couldn't even hit the target. When he did, it was straight at the keeper. His one goal was a header. I really needed him to step up at the end but his inability to score when the rest of the team couldn't really was a problem. 

[dolph11]

So, the game against Progresso was a strange one. It was a fairly close game but we had some clear shots (orange arrows) which the keeper saved. Now, they weren't really good saves it was more of my forwards just not executing their strikes properly. They looked to be putting their laces through the ball but it was floating to the keeper like a balloon! It was all very strange. Nonetheless, the game was made difficult after Progresso's only real opportunity of the game went in against the run of play early on (a far post header from a deep cross). I have no real complaints about the result, more about why my forwards were shooting the way they did!

[Pasonen]

10 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

He had 40 shots in his 14 games

Are headers counted as shots? I hope not.

[dolph11]

Next up, Nacional, a very tough game. Again, it was close overall but look at the chances created. Their keeper made some great saves in this game whereas mine didn't unfortunately. My forwards were poor and theirs were incisive. We had a great opportunity to level at 1-0 and my forward passed it back to their keeper, that could have changed the game. Still, no real complaints from me here.

[dolph11]

2 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

Are headers counted as shots? I hope not.

Ok, 40 opportunites, semantics.

[dolph11]

This game was infuriating.  It shows 1 CCC! Not even close, genuinely! The keeper made 15 saves from opportunities inside the penalty area. That's an incredible amount. In addition, They only had 1 opportunity inside the penalty area. Their goal was a long range effort in the 80th minute. It's the type of goal that you know is coming as you know how the game works. It was a barrage of opportunities for us and my forwards weren't just not scoring, it was weird to watch. How my forwards didn't score is beyond me. 

 

Now, before you focus only on my forwards, look at the low number of chances the opposition needed, Furthermore, look at the lack of GOOD opportunities the opposition teams needed. I think this is where players become frustrated. You can set up your team to create great chances and get beaten by teams who don't create great chances, of course, this can happen in football, but that's not tactical when it happens in such a way out of the blue.

[Pasonen]

6 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

This game was infuriating.  It shows 1 CCC! Not even close, genuinely! The keeper made 15 saves from opportunities inside the penalty area. That's an incredible amount. In addition, They only had 1 opportunity inside the penalty area. Their goal was a long range effort in the 80th minute. It's the type of goal that you know is coming as you know how the game works. It was a barrage of opportunities for us and my forwards weren't just not scoring, it was weird to watch. How my forwards didn't score is beyond me. 

 

Now, before you focus only on my forwards, look at the low number of chances the opposition needed, Furthermore, look at the lack of GOOD opportunities the opposition teams needed. I think this is where players become frustrated. You can set up your team to create great chances and get beaten by teams who don't create great chances, of course, this can happen in football, but that's not tactical when it happens in such a way out of the blue.

Could you show header amounts too from your team in this game? Attacking area. I'm not saying theres no problem in ME because there is.

[dolph11]

Finally, the nail in the coffin, I lost 1-0 to a team who didn't have a shot on target yet had 1 CCC. Nonsensical, right? Again, their keeper made a few good saves, nothing out of this world, to be honest. That was mainly down to, once again, my forwards being poor. Their passing and decision making was so different to a few games ago. Everything about my team changed, seemingly without reason, so it was difficult to get them to play as before. Wanderers goal was an embarrassing own goal by one of my defenders. Again, I'm not saying I deserved a win, it's more of a why is it so difficult for my team to score consistently when we create good opportunities yet the opposition can have efforts that aren't that good that result in goals. 

 

Now, I'm still happy with my season and the outcome, but I'm here to provide a bit more evidence of how some strikers consistently miss good opportunities and how the opposition don't need a lot of chances to score. It does feel off, sometimes. I feel that the people who have complained on here before probably can't be bothered to go to this level (which isn't really that detailed) to show or prove their point but they should be heard.

[dolph11]

2 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

Could you show header amounts too from your team in this game? Attacking area. I'm not saying theres no problem in ME because there is.

I'm trying to do that for you, but can't find it. I found this though. CCC's and half chances. Got work now but will respond to more later. Plus, look at the opportunities the opposition needed to score in comparison.

[Pasonen]

13 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

I'm trying to do that for you, but can't find it. I found this though. CCC's and half chances. Got work now but will respond to more later. Plus, look at the opportunities the opposition needed to score in comparison.

Yeah. Its in aerial challenges section. When I see these games I start to think if ME counts header "shots" same as normal shots and because so many headers are missed theres punishment coming for missing so many chances/shots(headers). This is just my thinking outside the box maybe completely wrong. I know also players use poorly their feet when shooting. They also run angles too small before shooting. It has also been reported by SI in bug forum that finishing is being fixed.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Pasonen

[dolph11]

26 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

Yeah. Its in aerial challenges section. When I see these games I start to think if ME counts header "shots" same as normal shots and because so many headers are missed theres punishment coming for missing so many chances/shots(headers). This is just my thinking outside the box maybe completely wrong. I know also players use poorly their feet when shooting. They also run angles too small before shooting. It has also been reported by SI in bug forum that finishing is being fixed.

I see where you're coming from, however headers are or can be just as dangerous as using your feet if the player is in the correct position. 

The reason I've added these examples is I feel there is almost contempt for people who come on the forum to complain about this when there really shouldn't be. The AI really doesn't have to do too much to score in many games. The deep cross to the far post, the long range howitzer, the long goal kick from the opposition keeper that your defenders watch while the opposition striker takes down perfectly with his his first touch, Bergkamp-esq and fires into the bottom corner, the counter-attack from your attacking throw-in. It's rather boring and repetitive when you're jumping through hoops to score!

[Pasonen]

1 minute ago, dolph11 said:

I see where you're coming from, however headers are or can be just as dangerous as using your feet if the player is in the correct position. 

The reason I've added these examples is I feel there is almost contempt for people who come on the forum to complain about this when there really shouldn't be. The AI really doesn't have to do too much to score in many games. The deep cross to the far post, the long range howitzer, the long goal kick from the opposition keeper that your defenders watch while the opposition striker takes down perfectly with his his first touch, Bergkamp-esq and fires into the bottom corner, the counter-attack from your attacking throw-in. It's rather boring and repetitive when you're jumping through hoops to score!

I think theres some or a lot problems how game flows. Very attacking tactics being in constant control or cautious/def team just keeping the ball. Its not allways in balance and its quite challenging to make perfect because we can affect to the game in so many ways (too many?).

[Draakon]

10 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

I see where you're coming from, however headers are or can be just as dangerous as using your feet if the player is in the correct position. 

The reason I've added these examples is I feel there is almost contempt for people who come on the forum to complain about this when there really shouldn't be. The AI really doesn't have to do too much to score in many games. The deep cross to the far post, the long range howitzer, the long goal kick from the opposition keeper that your defenders watch while the opposition striker takes down perfectly with his his first touch, Bergkamp-esq and fires into the bottom corner, the counter-attack from your attacking throw-in. It's rather boring and repetitive when you're jumping through hoops to score!

Well, there's a saying that in football, the weaker team always gets at least one chance. And the question is how well they use it.

Shot stats are misleading. Perhaps it's really a question of ME why it shows so many attacks that end up with a shot, but when you watch highlights it's obvious that most of those shots are rarely dangerous to any goalkeeper - soft headers, soft attempts that are easily held or ambitious long range attempts that go wide. 

What matters is number of chances. And here's also a little difference in what you see in highlights vs. how ME plays out situations on screen. It could be counted as bug, but it's not so much ME bug as just how well (or poorly) it's represented in graphics. I can see the match and see a clear cut chance while ME doesn't count it even as a half-chance. So when it's missed or saved, it's not really surprising, because for ME it's not a chance.

And vice versa - some chances (in ME terms) do not look like chances. When striker is well-marked by defender and his shot  (although from the box) is contested and blocked as a result, it's often counted as CCC. How? He was not open, he had rarely a split-second to turn and shoot with one touch - is it really a CCC? Same with headers. Headers in real life a fairly difficult to direct and any header can rarely count as a CCC in my terms. Perhaps if you have some 2 meters of space around you and you're in a six yard box you can count it as a CCC. In other circumstances it's HC in the best situation. However, ME often counts contested headers as CCC-s, which does not look correct to me. 

 

TLDR: if you feel that you have a right to complain that ME has been unfair to you, just watch chances vs. goals ratio. In examples above there are some games that look a little harsh (one goal from 5 CCC-s is poor finishing or rotten luck, indeed), but most of the results is just down to the fact that despite getting many shots on target, you haven't created enough chances to score more than a goal or two.

[HUNT3R]

@dolph11 You've provided more than most, but it's not possible to conclude very much just based on those screenshots. While it shows where the shots are from, it doesn't give any context to them. Whether they're headed chances from a cross or whether they're shots is already a big factor. Then there are others, like just how open the player was or not, whether it was a snap shot or on the turn or with the wrong foot or if he was shooting with 3 defenders in front of him etc. When that is determined, the player's attributes need to be taken into account too.

In my last season, I have converted 13% of my shots and scored 3.5 goals/match while conceding (IIRC) 0.4/match. How does yours compare?

[dolph11]

Again, I see where you're coming from, but in all of those games I created one or two good chances, at least, as I did throughout the rest of the season. 

 

Now, take the focus off my team, look at the opportunities the opposition teams had. As you can see, I didn't concede many which means tactically my defence is quite sound, as it had been all season. However, a clumsy own goal and your archetypal long range howitzer from two teams offering nothing attacking wise is going to raise questions. 

If you look at the efforts I had, few are from long range, this is what any manager would be aiming for, high volume of chances within the area whether they be on the ground or aerially (as a UEFA 'B' holder I can assure you of this) and on the flip side we restricted the opposing teams to very few chances inside the area, again, this is the aim. Now, of course, there are anomalies in football where teams get countered after parking the bus but this isn't that. Parking the bus is to restrict opportunities, this hasn't happened so much in the games I've shown. 

My further point, which often gets overlooked, is what did the opposition do to deserve their goals? You can't simply say something as simple as they scored them, well you can, but that would be over-simplifying it.  What I mean is when you lose a few games and you see them being played out the same way without any way of knowing why, therein lies the problem. Of course, the game is fluid so you need to adapt a little but it was obvious in each game what was going to happen. Genuinely, it did feel scripted, and I say that without fear of being ridiculed. 

You may believe that I didn't create chances worthy enough of being converted into goals, but, I assure you neither did the opposition.

21 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

@dolph11 You've provided more than most, but it's not possible to conclude very much just based on those screenshots. While it shows where the shots are from, it doesn't give any context to them. Whether they're headed chances from a cross or whether they're shots is already a big factor. Then there are others, like just how open the player was or not, whether it was a snap shot or on the turn or with the wrong foot or if he was shooting with 3 defenders in front of him etc. When that is determined, the player's attributes need to be taken into account too.

In my last season, I have converted 13% of my shots and scored 3.5 goals/match while conceding (IIRC) 0.4/match. How does yours compare?

 

[dolph11]

37 minutes ago, Draakon said:

Well, there's a saying that in football, the weaker team always gets at least one chance. And the question is how well they use it.

Shot stats are misleading. Perhaps it's really a question of ME why it shows so many attacks that end up with a shot, but when you watch highlights it's obvious that most of those shots are rarely dangerous to any goalkeeper - soft headers, soft attempts that are easily held or ambitious long range attempts that go wide. 

What matters is number of chances. And here's also a little difference in what you see in highlights vs. how ME plays out situations on screen. It could be counted as bug, but it's not so much ME bug as just how well (or poorly) it's represented in graphics. I can see the match and see a clear cut chance while ME doesn't count it even as a half-chance. So when it's missed or saved, it's not really surprising, because for ME it's not a chance.

And vice versa - some chances (in ME terms) do not look like chances. When striker is well-marked by defender and his shot  (although from the box) is contested and blocked as a result, it's often counted as CCC. How? He was not open, he had rarely a split-second to turn and shoot with one touch - is it really a CCC? Same with headers. Headers in real life a fairly difficult to direct and any header can rarely count as a CCC in my terms. Perhaps if you have some 2 meters of space around you and you're in a six yard box you can count it as a CCC. In other circumstances it's HC in the best situation. However, ME often counts contested headers as CCC-s, which does not look correct to me. 

 

TLDR: if you feel that you have a right to complain that ME has been unfair to you, just watch chances vs. goals ratio. In examples above there are some games that look a little harsh (one goal from 5 CCC-s is poor finishing or rotten luck, indeed), but most of the results is just down to the fact that despite getting many shots on target, you haven't created enough chances to score more than a goal or two.

I really wish I could upload highlights to show you some of the misses!

[Draakon]

4 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

I really wish I could upload highlights to show you some of the misses!

That's what I'm trying to say - to ME it doesn't really matter how those misses LOOK LIKE in the video. It only matters if it's HC or CCC or just a shot.

It's question of graphical representation of chances, not if the final result was fair or not.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Draakon said:

It only matters if it's HC or CCC or just a shot.

This can be misleading too. I have had a shot with 2 defenders in front of the ball, so close they could touch the ball themselves, and it registered as a CCC.

 

7 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

I really wish I could upload highlights to show you some of the misses!

You can always upload a PKM and list when the chances occurred.

[dolph11]

3 minutes ago, Draakon said:

That's what I'm trying to say - to ME it doesn't really matter how those misses LOOK LIKE in the video. It only matters if it's HC or CCC or just a shot.

It's question of graphical representation of chances, not if the final result was fair or not.

I get what you are saying, but if your team consistently has better opportunities than the opposition but you lose 1-0 to a long range goal then you can see why people raise questions. Listen, my point here is to not be too dismissive of people who complain about this. It's been something I've seen over numerous saves but am extremely bust and can never be bothered to go into it but the eye test should be sufficient evidence. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by dolph11

[dolph11]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

This can be misleading too. I have had a shot with 2 defenders in front of the ball, so close they could touch the ball themselves, and it registered as a CCC.

 

You can always upload a PKM and list when the chances occurred.

Honestly, I'm not bothered by it, I just get on with it. My point is that there was a reply on here which denigrated the OP's point and I felt it was unfair. I think the OP had a point, as have many others on here who've complained about finishing, even though he didn't provide much evidence. Neither have many others but I think it's fair to say that they aren't idiots and if they are consistently seeing something in game and want to vent on here, no need to shoot them down. 

Of course, each game/save differs but my point stands, people are experiencing this and quite often it's difficult to know why, and that's the problem, as it's a game and as a 'manager' you want to rectify it and in order to do so maybe we need more information which would act as the tool to do so.

[yolixeya]

I had this happen to me a few times but I always viewed it as my wrong approach for that game. I don't think people are idiots if they complain about this but I think they are too stubborn if they have this happening to them consistently and they are not changing anything to adress it.

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

Honestly, I'm not bothered by it, I just get on with it. My point is that there was a reply on here which denigrated the OP's point and I felt it was unfair. I think the OP had a point, as have many others on here who've complained about finishing, even though he didn't provide much evidence. Neither have many others but I think it's fair to say that they aren't idiots and if they are consistently seeing something in game and want to vent on here, no need to shoot them down. 

Of course, each game/save differs but my point stands, people are experiencing this and quite often it's difficult to know why, and that's the problem, as it's a game and as a 'manager' you want to rectify it and in order to do so maybe we need more information which would act as the tool to do so.

I don't think people actually analyse their chances/matches very often. Stick a random screenshot on here showing 'dominance' and that's it. That's just my opinion, so that could be wrong too. Very few people post more than a screenshot with limited match stats though.

Credit to @blejdek for doing that here at least in the next thread. Here was my analysis of what (on the match stats screen) looked like dominance:

If I used the xG graphic in that thread:

In a one-off, it's not really an issue. If it regularly and consistently happens, then you can fix it by creating something (or tweaking, including maybe player changes) to produce better chances.

[dolph11]

4 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

I had this happen to me a few times but I always viewed it as my wrong approach for that game. I don't think people are idiots if they complain about this but I think they are too stubborn if they have this happening to them consistently and they are not changing anything to adress it.

But change what? If your tactics are working (creating chances and restricting chances) what more can you do without knowing more about the players' mentality going into the game?  The game isn't that deep so it should be kept as superficial as it is on the surface,.

Edited August 21, 2020 by dolph11

[dolph11]

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I don't think people actually analyse their chances/matches very often. Stick a random screenshot on here showing 'dominance' and that's it. That's just my opinion, so that could be wrong too. Very few people post more than a screenshot with limited match stats though.

Credit to @blejdek for doing that here at least in the next thread. Here was my analysis of what (on the match stats screen) looked like dominance:

If I used the xG graphic in that thread:

In a one-off, it's not really an issue. If it regularly and consistently happens, then you can fix it by creating something (or tweaking, including maybe player changes) to produce better chances.

I think it's fair to say you know more about the game than most so you probably (sub-consciously) have learned nuances within the game to accommodate your tactics in order to make more sense of it. I'll openly admit, I had no idea why my forwards decided to perform the way they did in those final few games. Were they nervous? It didn't say so. Did they feel pressure? It didn't say so. How was I to know? Again, tactically we were fine, my forwards, however, weren't. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by dolph11

[pheelf]

As regular as clockwork, threads like these.

Context is important, the one thing which hasn't been posted is the tactics used or the players expected to perform the tactical instructions. A player having 20 finishing doesn't mean they are good at taking 1 on 1 opportunities. There are far more factors which go into how likely a 1 on 1 is likely to be converted.

- Is there a defender nearby exerting pressure?

- Is the player shooting with their stronger foot and what is their angle of approach to the goal?

- How much angle do they have to work with when attempting to shoot / head the ball?

- How close is the GK and how much have they closed the angle available down?

- Is the player composed or are they displaying negative body language?

- How far out from goal are they?

- Does the player have a good first touch and are they able to set the position of the ball well enough to get off a good strike?

- Has the player expected to take the chance had a good game?

- Is it a high pressure game and are your players good at handling pressure?

If something is happening consistently in your save which doesn't happen as much in other peoples saves then I don't think it's reasonable to rule out management style and/or tactical decisions as contributors to the issue. Yes, there are deficiencies in the ME but laying all of the blame on it for what you're observing doesn't help to alleviate the problems given the ME for FM20 is in its final build.

I have to ask, when you see your team having all these shots and not scoring what changes do you make?

IF you sit idly by while your team struggles to score that's not effective management in my book. You need to react to what is happening and make changes based on what you are seeing.

Your striker is having a poor game, sub him off. Players don't have much space in the final 3rd, introduce more depth and width into your attacks. Opposition defence easily telegraphing your attacks, change things up and add some unpredictability. There are loads of tools at your disposal which the AI doesn't have the capability to use effectively, don't just accept that your team isn't going to score and actively try and influence things to change that outcome.

For a long time this game has been 'plug and play' tactically which has gotten players used to the notion that once you have a decent tactic and are a competent squad builder (two areas where the AI is woefully inadequate) you can just sit back press continue and win until you get bored. Now there is more of a requirement to engage in a match it's leading to a lot of frustration with players. When you set up a tactic to produce a lot of 1 on 1 opportunities and that is no longer effective you need to have a plan B.

People can complain as much as they like but seeing as this is a public forum, people should expect that others are going to voice their opinions too, some of which they may disagree with but that's fine, nothing wrong with a healthy debate. Unfortunately, the current climate seems to be so polarized. The ME is either the worst thing ever or as close to perfect as it's possible to make which has made people lose sight of the massive space that lies in between the two extremes. It seems that anybody not wanting to subscribe to either extreme camp is fair game to be ridiculed which isn't right when in reality they are the vast majority and the extremes are a small but vocal minority.

As I've said previously on these forums, these sorts of lop-sided statistics tend to be produced when playing on higher mentalities and more aggressively but then again this is not unique to FM20 and has been the case for many years. The only difference being that in previous years (FM18 and before) a lot more of those shots were going into the back of the net. The problem being that the amount of goals being scored with older versions wasn't particularly realistic either. SI have the difficult task of finding a way to deliver a fulfilling ME that also roughly coincides with reality otherwise it's not much of a simulation.

The issue a lot of users have with this approach is that the more the game veers towards trying to emulate reality more closely the less 'fun' it becomes. Real life management is stressful and not all that 'fun' even if you happen to be lucky enough to be managing a team that is being successful.

Having said that it's very possible to create a tactic in this version of the game that regularly scores loads of goals which should be the objective not having a lot of shots. I use a basic 4-4-2 and score plenty of 1 on 1s but then again I very seldom use mentalities higher than Positive (if I do it's only for a short period in a game and I never start with them) so maybe that's why my experience with the ME differs from others.

Best Regards

[dolph11]

3 minutes ago, pheelf said:

As regular as clockwork, threads like these.

Context is important, the one thing which hasn't been posted is the tactics used or the players expected to perform the tactical instructions. A player having 20 finishing doesn't mean they are good at taking 1 on 1 opportunities. There are far more factors which go into how likely a 1 on 1 is likely to be converted.

- Is there a defender nearby exerting pressure?

- Is the player shooting with their stronger foot and what is their angle of approach to the goal?

- How much angle do they have to work with when attempting to shoot / head the ball?

- How close is the GK and how much have they closed the angle available down?

- Is the player composed or are they displaying negative body language?

- How far out from goal are they?

- Does the player have a good first touch and are they able to set the position of the ball well enough to get off a good strike?

- Has the player expected to take the chance had a good game?

- Is it a high pressure game and are your players good at handling pressure?

If something is happening consistently in your save which doesn't happen as much in other peoples saves then I don't think it's reasonable to rule out management style and/or tactical decisions as contributors to the issue. Yes, there are deficiencies in the ME but laying all of the blame on it for what you're observing doesn't help to alleviate the problems given the ME for FM20 is in its final build.

I have to ask, when you see your team having all these shots and not scoring what changes do you make?

IF you sit idly by while your team struggles to score that's not effective management in my book. You need to react to what is happening and make changes based on what you are seeing.

Your striker is having a poor game, sub him off. Players don't have much space in the final 3rd, introduce more depth and width into your attacks. Opposition defence easily telegraphing your attacks, change things up and add some unpredictability. There are loads of tools at your disposal which the AI doesn't have the capability to use effectively, don't just accept that your team isn't going to score and actively try and influence things to change that outcome.

For a long time this game has been 'plug and play' tactically which has gotten players used to the notion that once you have a decent tactic and are a competent squad builder (two areas where the AI is woefully inadequate) you can just sit back press continue and win until you get bored. Now there is more of a requirement to engage in a match it's leading to a lot of frustration with players. When you set up a tactic to produce a lot of 1 on 1 opportunities and that is no longer effective you need to have a plan B.

People can complain as much as they like but seeing as this is a public forum, people should expect that others are going to voice their opinions too, some of which they may disagree with but that's fine, nothing wrong with a healthy debate. Unfortunately, the current climate seems to be so polarized. The ME is either the worst thing ever or as close to perfect as it's possible to make which has made people lose sight of the massive space that lies in between the two extremes. It seems that anybody not wanting to subscribe to either extreme camp is fair game to be ridiculed which isn't right when in reality they are the vast majority and the extremes are a small but vocal minority.

As I've said previously on these forums, these sorts of lop-sided statistics tend to be produced when playing on higher mentalities and more aggressively but then again this is not unique to FM20 and has been the case for many years. The only difference being that in previous years (FM18 and before) a lot more of those shots were going into the back of the net. The problem being that the amount of goals being scored with older versions wasn't particularly realistic either. SI have the difficult task of finding a way to deliver a fulfilling ME that also roughly coincides with reality otherwise it's not much of a simulation.

The issue a lot of users have with this approach is that the more the game veers towards trying to emulate reality more closely the less 'fun' it becomes. Real life management is stressful and not all that 'fun' even if you happen to be lucky enough to be managing a team that is being successful.

Having said that it's very possible to create a tactic in this version of the game that regularly scores loads of goals which should be the objective not having a lot of shots. I use a basic 4-4-2 and score plenty of 1 on 1s but then again I very seldom use mentalities higher than Positive (if I do it's only for a short period in a game and I never start with them) so maybe that's why my experience with the ME differs from others.

Best Regards

So, in a nutshell, you think the team mentality is a reason for players missing opportunities and the opposition scoring from very few good opportunities?

Edited August 21, 2020 by dolph11

[dolph11]

My following game which put me through to he knockout stages of the Copa Libertadores, which is huge for a team like ours, just to highlight I'm not here to say the game is against me!

[pheelf]

Just now, dolph11 said:

So, in a nutshell, you think the team mentality is a reason for players missing opportunities and the opposition scoring from very few good opportunites?

Yes, it's not the sole reason but when combined with other factors it certainly contributes. I base this on the fact that a lot of the time when these sort of complaints come up about 1 on 1s and having loads of shots and failing to score it's often the case that the player is using a tactic which is playing on the attacking mentality.

It works as a strategy when teams underestimate you and give your players space to attack but begins to lose effectiveness as teams begin to respect your team and compress the space that your players want to use. I definitely agree with the sentiment often expressed around here that mentalities need to be altered in the way they operate.

Playing a higher mentality may encourage a more expansive brand of football by creating more width and tempo to your attacks but it also compresses depth which works against you, especially if you have a lot of attack duty players in the formation.

To be effective in an attacking sense, your players need space and time to be effective. Whether that be space gifted to you by the opposition or space which your players create with their movement it is a vital requirement.

All the best

[yolixeya]

21 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

But change what? If your tactics are working (creating chances and restricting chances) what more can you do without knowing more about the players' mentality going into the game?  The game isn't that deep so it should be kept as superficial as it is on the surface,.

It's hard to say what and there is no definitive answer what to change. It could be anything depending on what kind of the opposition you face. If I have doubts I watch the match on comperhensive and if I think they are threat on counter, then I will still not risk too much and will leave some players to defend. If they are not threat at all I will risk more and maybe go all out attack. If I have more space on the wings I will try to exploit that etc. Breaking defensive sides can be difficult, however preventing them from scoring that 1 goal from 2 shots is really easy if you spot those sides before it's too late.

[pheelf]

42 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

My following game which put me through to he knockout stages of the Copa Libertadores, which is huge for a team like ours, just to highlight I'm not here to say the game is against me!

That result would be consistent with what I've been saying. Against Barcelona (ECU) they probably felt they would be able to compete with you so played more attacking which gave your team more space when attacking them in their final third.

You can tell they were being more attacking by the fact that they played a less defensively minded formation against you. In the game you played against the Wanderers on the other hand they had 1 striker and 0 attacking midfielders, against Barcelona (ECU) they had 2 strikers and 1 AM. Against Deportivo Maldonado they played a more attacking looking formation with a 4-2-3-1 DM but they played on the defensive mentality against you. 

What it shows is that your tactic is very good at exploiting space which opposing teams leave for you but is much less effective against teams which set up more cautiously and don't give you as much space.

Edited August 21, 2020 by pheelf

[dolph11]

I get your theory, but it really isn't the case. Of course, shooting in a crowded area is going to result in blocked shots and defenders 'putting off' the striker. Even in the match against Barcelona (ECU) my left inside forward (right-footed) cut inside, one-on-one with the keeper and hit it with his left foot! Stupidity, really. Of course, I won, so it didn't bother me as much, that's how it works, When you lose, you want answers so you can rectify it.

Where your theory falls down is the easiest of my games was Deportivo Maldonado yet I had numerous attempts, one of them was a beautiful opportunity, player found in space with all the time in the world on the edge of the 6-yard box and he passed it into the keepers' hands. Just mind-boggling stuff, really. The most difficult of the games was Nacional, who we also found it difficult to score against. Again, I reiterate, in no way was this tactical, my forwards just couldn't score for love nor money, yet the opposition scored creating next to nothing. 

It's ok to work off assumptions and theory, and here I believe you're working off the assumption that I missed obvious things like the things you mentioned a few posts ago, but I have to tell you that wasn't the case.

 

Take it easy!

[dolph11]

To add to that, it wasn't just the finishing, it was also the decision making in the final 3rd that changed dramatically without reason also. This is what leaves many players confused. 

[dolph11]

39 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

It's hard to say what and there is no definitive answer what to change. It could be anything depending on what kind of the opposition you face. If I have doubts I watch the match on comperhensive and if I think they are threat on counter, then I will still not risk too much and will leave some players to defend. If they are not threat at all I will risk more and maybe go all out attack. If I have more space on the wings I will try to exploit that etc. Breaking defensive sides can be difficult, however preventing them from scoring that 1 goal from 2 shots is really easy if you spot those sides before it's too late.

But why would you change a tactic that is working when it's only your forwards decision making and finishing that is the problem? I wasn't under any real threat in any of the games, apart from Nacional who had a great striker who punished me aerially. In the other games there was no threat, all I needed was a striker to put the ball in the net. The goals I conceded weren't because of the threat of the opposition, it was due to an element of bad luck/stupidity. 

[yolixeya]

23 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

The goals I conceded weren't because of the threat of the opposition, it was due to an element of bad luck/stupidity. 

Look. Odd game can happen here and there. But if you are having these games consistently that is not due to bad luck.

25 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

I wasn't under any real threat in any of the games,

Did you watch on comperhensive or full match because if you didn't then you will not notice it.

I will repeat, there is no bulletproof method with dealing with this. Even if you leave cover to protect you against counters they can still punish you with header fro a set piece or something like that striker from Nacional. But my personal exeprience is that I prevented concedeng some goals as I was facing some teams that played counter attacking 4-4-2. In the first part of the season I lost 1-2 games against such teams and also got knoced out of the cup so in the second part of the season I was more cautious and didn't allow them to repeat it. 

[dolph11]

2 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

Look. Odd game can happen here and there. But if you are having these games consistently that is not due to bad luck.

Did you watch on comperhensive or full match because if you didn't then you will not notice it.

I will repeat, there is no bulletproof method with dealing with this. Even if you leave cover to protect you against counters they can still punish you with header fro a set piece or something like that striker from Nacional. But my personal exeprience is that I prevented concedeng some goals as I was facing some teams that played counter attacking 4-4-2. In the first part of the season I lost 1-2 games against such teams and also got knoced out of the cup so in the second part of the season I was more cautious and didn't allow them to repeat it. 

You're totally missing the point. My team became ineffective in attack in every way, shape and form. Yes, of course you can get punished, but here we are talking 4 games out of nowhere in which my players played well and on the face of it did what they needed but just couldn't score. The opposition didn't really have to do anything to score. As people have complained about before, sometimes it seems there's nothing you can do to score, yet they AI just score a nothing goal. Those 4 games were not endemic of my season or my tactic, the games just went weird.