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My possesion based 433 tactic.


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18 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Great write up mate! Good to see people are still passionate with this game at this point in its lifecycle.

I have immersed myself too much in this save. :)   Btw I use your training schedules exclusively from I believe your Sociedad save and they are top notch.

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11 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I have immersed myself too much in this save. :)   Btw I use your training schedules exclusively from I believe your Sociedad save and they are top notch.

Thanks! I'm glad they work. I made a little change to it to include some more teamwork sessions, especially before big games.

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5 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Thanks! I'm glad they work. I made a little change to it to include some more teamwork sessions, especially before big games.

Rashidi frequently tells people that they aren't making enough use of match preparation sessions just prior to matches so the day before a match I set up almost exclusive match preparation sessions. It might just be a placebo for me but I do think it has made a difference. 

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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53 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Rashidi frequently tells people that they aren't making enough use of match preparation sessions just prior to matches so the day before a match I set up almost exclusive match preparation sessions. It might just be a placebo for me but I do think it has made a difference. 

No it definitely makes a difference. Especially in total football style systems.

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Potentially stupid question, but what makes this a "Bielsa tactic?" I ask because I associate him with 3313, which I'm trying to implement in my Frosinone save (the formation, not so much his approach to it). Is this more reflective of what he's done with Leeds?  

1 hour ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Rashidi frequently tells people that they aren't making enough use of match preparation sessions just prior to matches so the day before a match I set up almost exclusive match preparation sessions. It might just be a placebo for me but I do think it has made a difference. 

That's pretty much always been my approach. I don't really know what training "should" look like, so I just kinda go with what seems intuitive to me. I view the day before, and sometimes the day after, as "walk through" sessions. 

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2 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

Potentially stupid question, but what makes this a "Bielsa tactic?" I ask because I associate him with 3313, which I'm trying to implement in my Frosinone save (the formation, not so much his approach to it). Is this more reflective of what he's done with Leeds?  

That's pretty much always been my approach. I don't really know what training "should" look like, so I just kinda go with what seems intuitive to me. I view the day before, and sometimes the day after, as "walk through" sessions. 

It actually isn't a Bielsa tactic it's a variation on Rashidis Bielsa tactic. So I am using some of the exact same principles from that tactic but changing things up to make it more possession orientated. 

 

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12 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I have immersed myself too much in this save. :)   Btw I use your training schedules exclusively from I believe your Sociedad save and they are top notch.

 

12 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Thanks! I'm glad they work. I made a little change to it to include some more teamwork sessions, especially before big games.

 

12 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Rashidi frequently tells people that they aren't making enough use of match preparation sessions just prior to matches so the day before a match I set up almost exclusive match preparation sessions. It might just be a placebo for me but I do think it has made a difference. 

 

11 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

No it definitely makes a difference. Especially in total football style systems.

Teamwork Match Prep before game is a must in possession style tactics. Especially in first half of each season to help build team chemistry and cohesiveness. Not to mention it helps with pressing and develops teamwork attribute. After a while your team becomes so comfortable playing the style that is unfair to opponents. Especially if don't make crazy amount of transfers each window to disrupt the bonding process. 

@Crazy_Ivan

If you feeling adventurous, try moving your CWBs to WB positions. It helps with possession as on the ball provides better passing angles and support, while without the ball the WB positions close down better than the FB positions. However if you do move them there, I would suggest using Support duty with Overlap (it won't affect the mentality of IF-A). 

It's crazy how you can dominate games with 2323 shape. 

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Great read! I think i will use this as inspiration for my own game. I am really struggling with total football tactics in FM20, especially conceding goals from crosses. Does defending wide help with this?

Also, i do struggle to get the best from a false 9, do you think a Pressing Forward or CF could work?

Thanks!

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17 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I have immersed myself too much in this save. :)   Btw I use your training schedules exclusively from I believe your Sociedad save and they are top notch.

Where can I find this training schedule?

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42 minutes ago, MRAFTCT said:

Great read! I think i will use this as inspiration for my own game. I am really struggling with total football tactics in FM20, especially conceding goals from crosses. Does defending wide help with this?

Also, i do struggle to get the best from a false 9, do you think a Pressing Forward or CF could work?

Thanks!

It does help yes. Quite a lot of tactical problems result from not having the right players with the right attributes I find, so no doubt someone will tell me this tactic is awful and doesn't work for them, and certainly I have seen some of the best FM minds get told their tactics are rubbish but I find this is because a lot of people are putting literally zero thought in to the attributes their players have and a big one is the traits their players have. 

I haven't tried this with a forward that isn't a F9 but potentially it could very well work. The one issue is that both the RPM and the CAR can start from kickoffs really deep and if you have someone in the attacking role that isn't deep enough to help link up you are going to have a big disconnect between midfield and attack. If you find the right F9 and get him to learn the traits Comes deep to get ball, Tries Killer Balls often and Plays One Twos you should find an improvement. With a F9 don't discount the ability to dribble and especially their Agility as they have to turn on a dime and make smart passes. The main thing is that my F9 is there to link up play, he will chip in with 14-18 goals a season if he has a good one but he is not by any means the star of the team.

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20 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

It does help yes. Quite a lot of tactical problems result from not having the right players with the right attributes I find, so no doubt someone will tell me this tactic is awful and doesn't work for them, and certainly I have seen some of the best FM minds get told their tactics are rubbish but I find this is because a lot of people are putting literally zero thought in to the attributes their players have and a big one is the traits their players have. 

I haven't tried this with a forward that isn't a F9 but potentially it could very well work. The one issue is that both the RPM and the CAR can start from kickoffs really deep and if you have someone in the attacking role that isn't deep enough to help link up you are going to have a big disconnect between midfield and attack. If you find the right F9 and get him to learn the traits Comes deep to get ball, Tries Killer Balls often and Plays One Twos you should find an improvement. With a F9 don't discount the ability to dribble and especially their Agility as they have to turn on a dime and make smart passes. The main thing is that my F9 is there to link up play, he will chip in with 14-18 goals a season if he has a good one but he is not by any means the star of the team.

Thanks for the reply, its definitely food for thought! 

I have just started a Rangers save and Morelos doesn't fit the F9 mould i dont think, so i will test it with CFsup. Once I sell him (which i inevitably will have to) i think i will look for a F9 player.

Cheers!

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How does the RPM work with the carrilero? Im going to be honest, I started to love CAR once Rashidi talked me into trying him, but I'm still very doubtfull of the role partnering. Mezzala is cool but assists rarely, and I find the Mezzala on support completely minus 1 on the pitch.

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27 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

How does the RPM work with the carrilero? Im going to be honest, I started to love CAR once Rashidi talked me into trying him, but I'm still very doubtfull of the role partnering

Rashidi himself used a combo of RPM and carrilero in his Hannover 442 system with a lot of success.

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12 hours ago, Razor940 said:

How does the RPM work with the carrilero? Im going to be honest, I started to love CAR once Rashidi talked me into trying him, but I'm still very doubtfull of the role partnering. Mezzala is cool but assists rarely, and I find the Mezzala on support completely minus 1 on the pitch.

Its the least of my worries tbh. They do sometimes play a little bit too close to each other but I would put issues with the Carillero and Roaming Play Maker partnership as the least of my problems.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 1 year later...

@Crazy_Ivan seems like a fun way to play!

I know it’s been awhile, but just curious if you remember, who is the keeper set to distribute to here? I assume it’s the HB, as you could have just ticked CB’s, FB’s, or Defenders otherwise. And without counter, with short passes and play out of defense, I assume he isn’t trying to hoof it far up the pitch either.

Also wondering, was there a reason you added that, in terms of was the keeper doing something wrong with his own distribution choices?

Edited by Joey Numbaz
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1 hour ago, Joey Numbaz said:

@Crazy_Ivan seems like a fun way to play!

I know it’s been awhile, but just curious if you remember, who is the keeper set to distribute to here? I assume it’s the HB, as you could have just ticked CB’s, FB’s, or Defenders otherwise. And without counter, with short passes and play out of defense, I assume he isn’t trying to hoof it far up the pitch either.

Also wondering, was there a reason you added that, in terms of was the keeper doing something wrong with his own distribution choices?

It was the Halfback yes, I still use a variant of this as my go to tactic with most instructions the same however I removed the distribution to Halfback a while back and toned down the keeper to SK on defend because naturally he was trying long range kicks and was ill equipped to do that wasting possesion.

This tactic made a seemless transition through FM21 being very successful and has done well so far on FM 22 as you can see but there are still issues I'm trying to iron out now that we are in La Liga. I am starting to wonder if the update made tweaking necessary. 

image.png.a2807d000f25bbcd5c67a7552e17a233.png

 

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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Awesome thanks!

I'm still on FM20, and have a pretty great group of players, just won the 2024 Champions League - might give something like this a go. I build to a very similar DNA, and I can't ever stick with one tactic for more than a season or two.

Seems like a great fit for my players, especially thinking Lautaro as the IFs, Haaland as the IFa, Sancho as the F9 - although his teamwork (12) and anticipation (13) aren't great. Aouar could work as the F9 too, might even be better than Sancho with his 15 teamwork. Maybe I'll have Lautaro and Sancho swap positions throughout the game and see if we tend to do better with one combination than the other.

Camavinga, Florentino, Tonali, and Milincovic-Savic rotating through the midfield three should be fun with this too, as all four of them can play any of the three positions.

If I give it a shot I'll post the results and any tweaks that help here.

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6 minutes ago, Joey Numbaz said:

Awesome thanks!

I'm still on FM20, and have a pretty great group of players, just won the 2024 Champions League - might give something like this a go. I build to a very similar DNA, and I can't ever stick with one tactic for more than a season or two.

Seems like a great fit for my players, especially thinking Lautaro as the IFs, Haaland as the IFa, Sancho as the F9 - although his teamwork (12) and anticipation (13) aren't great. Aouar could work as the F9 too, might even be better than Sancho with his 15 teamwork. Maybe I'll have Lautaro and Sancho swap positions throughout the game and see if we tend to do better with one combination than the other.

Camavinga, Florentino, Tonali, and Milincovic-Savic rotating through the midfield three should be fun with this too, as all four of them can play any of the three positions.

If I give it a shot I'll post the results and any tweaks that help here.

Yes please that would be great.

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  • Crazy_Ivan changed the title to My possesion based 433 tactic.
On 27/12/2021 at 22:40, xLiamReynoldsx said:

Can you potentially upload the FM22 version of this for download please?

 

On 29/12/2021 at 01:16, JoOSTAR said:

Also interested in your FM22 version!

I will upload before the weekend is out as I believe I might have hit the sweet-spot between great possesion numbers and good chance creation which I think is the Holy Grail with trying to get a possesion tactic to work properly.

I have to be honest there are some key requirements I used to make it work in the CB, FB and HB roles which I believe are the keys to making it work.

I have also made a 3331 possesion based tactic which is hitting the sweet spot too but still requires some refinement which I will share at a later date.

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So one thing I'm noticing very early going on FM20 is a lot of headed chances in the box going over the bar. They aren't really listening to the low crosses TI all that much. This is just two preseason games without my full lineup due to the 2024 Euros and Olympics. But even the youth games going back and looking at the off target shots same thing. Not hitting that sweet spot of 50% shots on target that Cleon talks about.

Tacticial familiarity after 3 weeks of pre-season is here:

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I haven't noticed the keeper doing too badly as SK-A or SK-S. Pickford first game on SK-A 27-for-30 passing, next game as SK-S, 20-for-20.

This is rock solid defensively so far in my two away friendlies in a tour of Spain. Outshot Betis 15-4 in the first game, but as mentioned only 3 (!) shots on target for us in a 0-0 draw. I'll show the stats in case anything jumps out there.

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Here's a chart I love. We were out-possessed 62-38, right? I don't care about that at all.

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The circle numbers are all that matters. Where it counts we out-possessed them 63-37 (10:6). They passed it around the midfield for 38 minutes and spent 12 1/2 minutes trying to get out of their own third.

Also note that we managed to get 15 shots off in 10% of the time in their 3rd, or 1.7 shots for every minute. They were only able to get .74 shots off per minute in my third.

Second game completely dominated Getafe who set up in a defensive 4-1-4-1 DM. Outshot them 22-7 (10 on target, 2 CCC, 2 HC to 3-0-1 for Getafe), and won 2-0. First goal HB hit the CWBa in the right corner, who crossed it over the False 9 who slid to knock in right in front of the goal. Second goal was a counter where the IFa-R hit the IFa-L around mid-field and he dribbled it the rest of the way and finished.

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We were out-possessed 51-49, but where it counts we out-possessed them 76-24 (13:4).

1.88 shots per minute in their third, they did get 1.94 shots per minute in my third, but they only spent 3.6 minutes there :-) 

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The U18s "average squad" playing the same tactic, lost 0-1 (we outshot them 15-10, but only 4 on target, and got out CCC'd 3-1); game 2, scoreless draw, outshot them 19-7, but only 5 on target, 0 CCC again.

U23s, also "average squad", won 1-0, outshot a Vanarama NL team 26-3, 13 on target, but still 0 CCC (and just 2 half chances). The goal was off of a corner. Second friendly, played a couple of good senior "B" team playersat F9 and IFLa,  against a Ligue 1 U23 side , and won 2-1, outshot them 32-7 (14 on target) which is great, but again 0 CCC (3 half chances). Kind of funny, the two goals were similar to the Getafe game. HB to IF to F9 (this time a header - they seem to ignore low crossing). Second was a counter, and IF took it most of the way from midfield, but his time he did low cross it to the charging false 9 who placed it in the back of the net.

So I can kind of see what's happening, but still don't really know what tweaks to make. Playing Bayern in the last friendly before the Community Shield against United, we'll see how that goes.

Edited by Joey Numbaz
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Oh wow, that was awesome. Bayern friendly, the last before the Community Shield.

Bayern played a cautious 4-2-3-1. They are not as good as they used to be, but they aren't "bad" yet either. After finishing 4th in 2021-22, ending a 9 year streak of winning the league, they won the Bundesliga in 2022-23, but slipped to 5th last season. We outshot them 19-5. Completely dominated the first half, was outshooting them 11-0 at the 45+1' mark before the CWBa Max Aarons made a mistake out on the wing, and Alaba launched a cross to a fast regen who blew through the two CBs for an easy goal. Stuff happens. Haaland should be been man marking him, but I guess he couldn't get there fast enough.

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For the second half I dropped the lines (engagement and regular line) down to higher. Only outshot them 8-4 and didn't get a goal, but that's ok. A ridiculously solid 2-1 win at Goodison. Finally got 50% on target, 10 of 19 shots.

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Pickford was perfect again as SK-S, 49-for-49 passing. So I don't think I need to tone down his SK role any lower than support. Bayern spent 48% of the game with the ball trying to get it into the final third, and once they got it there we were able to get it out of there pretty quickly, again the opponent only had the ball in the final third for ~3.6 minutes.

Our first goal came from the IFL (Lautaro) dribbling all the way across the pitch to the right channel maybe 40 yards away, passing back across the field into space to the CWBL (Katterbach), outside of the box maybe 15 yards from the byline and dribbled a few steps and crossed it over to IFR (Haaland) who headed in into the corner.

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Second goal Katterbach (CWBL) stole it from the AMR in our third, passed it to Lautaro (IFL), he passed it back to the HB, who hit Katterbach flying uncontested down the line. He cut inside a little, passed to the RPM (MC-R, I flipped the CAR/RPM) (Sergej  Milinkovic-Savic) who played a beautiful through-ball for Haaland, who fought with Alaba a little in front of the post, fell down and kicked it in through the scrum.

1021229021_ScreenShot2021-12-30at2_42_24PM.png.c028f65b411d5dadd50f8039ceb3b428.png 

The play is awesome, really fun to watch, and super solid defensively. Still would like to get some more CCC but I think that may come with more familiarity.

I wonder if this is why Cleon says give it three games before you start making changes 😀

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I can, here you go! This was the lineup for the last friendly vs. Bayern. Ideally when internationals are over and everyone is back I'll lean towards having an A Team and a B Team, though injuries will mess that up I'm sure. I was just offered £64 million for Marco Kana bought for £23 million 4 years ago), but decided to keep him as the B Team Carrilero and injury depth - he's still only 21.

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Here's the A Team assuming everyone is healthy - I am going to move Tonali out to right wing back, as it lets me get Camavinga, Florentino, Milinkovic-Savic on the pitch as well. Tonali can pretty much play anywhere on the pitch.

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Here is the B Team. I think Aouar and Lautaro Martinez and maybe even Kulusevski might be better F9's than Sancho. But I think overall this fits better for now. If I could sell Sancho and buy a good left footed forward (I could move Kulusevski to F9 or RPM at that point) I would. Sancho feels like he's been a disappointment, but he was also the only one on my team to make all Premier League First Team last year, so what do I know. Recht is a 19-year old regen CB I just bought from Köln for £54 million. Retraining him as a HB.

2077881675_ScreenShot2021-12-30at8_39_09PM.thumb.png.c26da8447d60e5e25eb088688ad48ead.png 

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Edited by Joey Numbaz
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We just obliterated Manchester United in the Community Shield. It was 4-0 at halftime and we took it easy in the second half, brought on all six subs including three U23s at 50', final 4-0. Used the close it out version for the last half  hour. Manchester United won the league last year with 92 points, we tied, but they beat us on goal differential. They beat us 4-2 in the FA Cup Final. But then we beat them 2-0 in the Champions League Final after Captain Pogba picked up his second yellow early in the second half. So they are a great team is my point.

They line up in a 5-3-2 (WB) that is crazy great defensively, they only gave up 16 goals last season. Which reminds me - @Crazy_Ivan do you still man mark the wide players if they are in the wing back position? Also against 3 CBs do you man mark the best or the one in the middle? Just wonder if marking the guy on one side would throw the balance off.

We are still missing Tonali and Camavinga who are off Olympicsing, so it's a not a full strength squad. Which is brutal because I've had no time to train Tonali as a DR this preseason (Italy was also in the Euro quarterfinals), no time for he and Haaland to build a partnership either. Also, Tonali and Camavinga are both going to be exhausted when done (meaning a week or two vacation), and they'll get jaded all year because they didn't get a preseason so no boot camp fatigue etc. First world problems I suppose.

Anyway here is the squad we did play. Note Milinkovic-Savic is the CAR, Aouar the RPM.

1225975587_ScreenShot2021-12-31at12_22_54AM.thumb.png.ddb8ae1a95ed272298df2d658d9f733f.png

13 shots, 9 on goal, 3 CCC. Haaland with a penalty goal and two assists. Every highlight on key but for two were ours. They had one ball over the top 33' when we were up 2-0, Rashford had a clear one-on-one but Pickford saved it. I dropped the line back (which I should have done before the game). We scored twice more before halftime. Pickford as SK-S was 36-for-38 passing. Again, seeing no signs of him wasting possession.

The open play goals are fun with this. First goal, Aarons passes to Haaland in the channel just inside the box, he passes on the ground to Sancho in the middle who blasts it home.

But the rest were set play goals. So 4-0 overstates it some in terms of the tactic playing great. Second goal was a penalty from a foul on a corner. Third was a great header on a deep free kick to the far post. The fourth was a long throw in where Haaland assisted with a header to Milinkovic-Savic.

Again defensively, this tactic is amaze-balls. Other than the occasional ball over the top no one has touched us.

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We'll see what happens when the real games start. We open away to Tottenham at New White Hart Lane or whatever they call that place. So that should be a good test. But so far 8-1 through 3 toughish friendlies and the Community Shield isn't too shabby. After that the Super Cup with Lyon mid-week and then three days later we host Man City, who are still very good. So we'll find out quick what we need to tweak.

After 5 weeks we almost get this, just need some more work and creative freedom and the width. I am also fully invested training wise - everyone is training at their expected position (in the U23 and U18 also) to get that familiarity to 100% too. I guess I am all in on this system for better or worse.

895863289_ScreenShot2021-12-31at12_52_33AM.png.dd40004594fd83694878e2d7aa5ccb55.png

Edited by Joey Numbaz
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Opening day at Spurs. They lined up in a positive 4231.

835506906_ScreenShot2021-12-31at3_14_03PM.thumb.png.0b3f8bec92ef1be0ec9b1fc547857aef.png

LMAO, as much as I've been talking about Pickford not being wasteful, I'm watching the first 15 minutes, and literally his first pass, with everyone set up to play out of defense he launches it to midfield looking for Sancho, where a Spurs wins the header, 0-for-1 passing haha. Sergej won the second ball though. After 15 minutes everything looked great except for Pickford launching long balls, (he was 5-for-7 at that point) so I dropped him to SK-D - he was 34-for-38 the rest of the game. I wonder what Spurs were doing that made him think he couldn't play out of defense, at least for an initial pass.

Anyway, we played a good solid game. After a scoreless first half, that I think we edged, Haaland picked up a goal off of a long throw at 48'.

At 55' my DCL Josko Gvardiol dwelled on the ball some at midfield, near the touchline - Tottenham's striker Buitink stole it, passed across to runner Son Heung-Min who split the HB and DCR in acres of space and scored the 1-on-1. Ick. Not sure how that wasn't a "mistake leading to goal" but it was ugly.

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We dominated from there but couldn't break through. I switched to the Attacking chasing a goal tactic at 70'. At 79' Sergej launched a perfect ball from just in front of the center circle into space in the box where Lautaro dribbled to the byline, he cut it back to Sergej running at the top of the box, and in what is the longest 1-2 I've ever seen, Sergej blasted it home. We switched to the close out tactic and closed it out. Nice first away game. This tactic plays really nice, and I never feel like we are in any danger. 17 shots, 8 on target, 2 CCC. The didn't do much of anything outside of that turnover, which I don't think is a sign of an issue with the tactic or the player, he wasn't "nervous" though he doesn't love big games. He's 16 composure, 15 concentration, doesn't have the dwells on ball PPM, and is also 16 decisions. He just had a brain cramp. And the other team is allowed to make good plays sometimes too.
 

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Very curious to see how this plays with the B team in the Super Cup in a few days.

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I put out a better lineup for the Super Cup in Copenhagen than I wanted to, way too many injuries, Tonali on vacation, Camavinga only 91%, etc.

That being said I had to start a regen at CWBa-R that was a bit out of his depth. Based on the scouting/analyst report Lyon is strong down my right wing too, not a great matchup. I was pretty concerned, watched the first 15 minutes with the idea of making change early if needed, either a sub, or a duty or something. Here's the kid.

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We also rotated in at IFL, HB, one of the CBs and DL. I thought about flipping the CAR/RPM, moving the CAR to the right side to help out defensively putting Milinkovic-Savic on the R, and Aouar on the left, but that would have required adjusting all of my set pieces, and it's just the Super Cup. I guess I could have left the players and just made Auoar the CAR. But while Milinkovic-Savic can play anywhere, Auoar is much more suited to RPM than CAR.

Pickford completed every pass as a sweeper keeper, 48-for-48! He was taking long goal kicks during the first 15 minutes, but every time Kulusevski (IFRa) was open and received the pass, so I left it alone.

Lyon never threatened, outside of two balls over the top. The first came right after I switched to key highlights, about 17 minutes in. So I dropped the line as Martial is a fast striker. We dominated the game, an easy 3-0 win. Each IF scored on a header from close range and Sancho scored again from the F9 spot which is really nice to see, as he loves to shoot, which normally drives me crazy.

The Nikulásson played fine, a solid 6.7 rating, 20-for-24 passing with 1 key pass and one dribble. Three mistakes. I subbed him out up 1-0 after 60 minutes, so my regular for now right back was able to get a reasonable rest only playing 30 minutes today. After the second goal on 67' we switched to the close out tactic. At 82' I added in waste time frequently, and Pellagri iced it with a header at 86'.

This thing is humming along great right now. Other than tweaking the keeper, dropping the line/line of engagement if balls are going over the top and switching between the 3 tactics as game situation dictates, I really haven't seen any need to change anything.

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10 shots on goal out of 15 taken. No CCCs but that's OK. 62% possession, 9-6 (60%) on possession in the final third.

Edited by Joey Numbaz
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Summarizing the results so far:

914564652_ScreenShot2022-01-01at1_09_11PM.thumb.png.faa34689e4faf8f7e07f3c2c6aa121b8.png

Outscored opponents 13-2 over 6 games.

1444029598_ScreenShot2022-01-01at1_21_41PM.png.e8202e300585b532b13f34067485a667.png

I am maybe a bit concerned that we aren't generating enough CCC and we are giving up too many. In analyst report terms, we are getting one chance every 67.5 minutes, allowing one every 108 minutes.

But overall this is working really well, especially considering I don't have all of my best players playing yet.

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On 30/12/2021 at 12:32, Crazy_Ivan said:

 

I will upload before the weekend is out as I believe I might have hit the sweet-spot between great possesion numbers and good chance creation which I think is the Holy Grail with trying to get a possesion tactic to work properly.

I have to be honest there are some key requirements I used to make it work in the CB, FB and HB roles which I believe are the keys to making it work.

I have also made a 3331 possesion based tactic which is hitting the sweet spot too but still requires some refinement which I will share at a later date.

Any news about this? :)

 

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Really good thread.

I adapted some of your ideas and blended them with hose established in Rashidi's Bayern replication from FM21 and the results have been really fantastic for my Bologna side. Use CWBs (A) in tandem with IF (A) on either side of a three man midfield of DLP (D) in DMC and then a BBM and BWM (S) in MC and a F9 upfront. Play high tempo, short passing and focus attacks down the flanks.

We create bucket loads of chances, honestly if we had more clinical IFs we'd probably be top (we got a 0-0 v Inter who were yet to even drop points 11 games in and by rights could have won 5-0), the fundamentals of creating overloads down the flanks with your 4-3-3 has helped my refine my own. Now my Ifs are making runs into the box with the extra width the CWBs provide, they could be more clinical but I am happy they are in the right positions and the transitions work well, better it be a case of having less finished articles in my team in the right place than the tactic not working.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, JoOSTAR said:

Any news about this? :)

 

So I have just realised this might be the most realistic version of FM in terms of possesion in that you will dominate possesion against some teams but others it just wont happen like in previous versions where you could dominate possesion in most games, we were up to 60% possesion in the 2nd division but this is us now, I would anticipate a 60%+ possesion average if I had a superior team.

So I am running my own version of a Bilbao save where I am mostly developing youth and using only Aragon players(aside from the players I inherited) this is a team with a 37 year old Captain quaterbacking the team. I have played Barca three times(cup too) and Real Madrid twice and have lost just one of those games winning two and drawing the other two.

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The key roles for me are the CB's such a high line requires strong attributes in Anticipation, Concentration and Positioning. After that I look at pace and after that the traditional CB attributes. Only one of my CB's is 6ft, the rest are all under so if you can find a defender with height too then I think you have an elite defender.

Wingbacks are key, they provide the width and a lot of key passes so good engines required to get up and down the field are important especially key is the right wing back who needs to be good at crossing and passing. My best fullbacks in FM have always been converted DM's or Cm's who are naturally good at passing the ball. I don't have that right now but you can see how important this man is to me my setup.

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The Halfback not only provides the defensive solidity to the teambut he is the quarterback, the metronome that large amounts of the play will go through. He needs to be press resistant and have a great range of passing as well as obviously being able to be defensively solid. I am a massive fan of the HB role.

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Zapater is my 37 year old HB, still balling and racking up 113 passes in a win against Real Madrid.

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Zaragoza.fmf

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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Posted (edited)

BTW one of the key ways I help my defense and pressing is to set dimensions of my pitch to suit the very high line and press. You're playing half your games at home so it's best to set the pitch up to suit how you want to play. I am not trying direct passes over their defenders but I am certainly wanting to prevent the other team from having too much space behind me and this is no coincidence that we are unbeaten at home and in both seasons we have conceded less goals at home, so if you come up against teams away from home with similar specs to your home stadium then obviously your odds increase.

The converse is true too, if you come up against a team like say Valencia where the pitch is 115m long the suddenly you have an extra 15 meters your defenders need to account for and it's somethig you would want to especially account for if the opposition are playing a striker in a role that aims to get that strikers pace to get behind your defenders. It's an under utilised part of peoples tactics and can add marginal gains to get you higher up the table through the season.

image.png.b9a937f1609eee583682464fa0c7eca4.png 

You can see that my biggest issue arent through balls or balls over the top it's corners of which we have conceded from four corners in the last 10 matches but it's also been the biggest issue in the last 50 games too.

image.png.6ae9c81bb8e87122ea8e0acc3f606e37.png

image.png

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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36 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

one of the key ways I help my defense and pressing is to set dimensions of my pitch to suit the very high line and press.

This is pure genius, I have no idea why I have never thought about adjusting the size of the pitch to help with those marginal gains. 

Bravo 👏

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I am kind of hitting a wall. I've stopped scoring. No one can really score on me (FM20 version). I had 7 clean sheets in a row, and I have only given up 4 goals in 13 competitive games. Five of those were against the big English teams, two others were against Lyon and Madrid. Frankfurt is 3rd in the Bundesliga. It's been a crazy hard schedule for this early in the season.

But we are dominating the games without breaking through - a lot of missed chances. We've been shut out in 4 of the last 7 games.

I've tried switching the distribution from the HB to the CB/FB. I've tried some roaming on the inside forwards. I've tried the F9 moving into channels. I've tried a HB who is great but conservative despite being a great passer with vision, and one who is great but loves to spread the ball around and gets aggressive.

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In the loss to Norwich, we had to run a bad lineup out there. Both the left and right CWB, and their backups were injured! Katterbach, Digne, Tonali and Aarons all unavailable. I had to play 4 CBs essentially. Even though Ajer and Gvardiol are both capable outside, they have 8 crossing. We complete 31% of crosses normally. We were just 8-for-41 in that game.

Still we outshot them 19-5, 64% possession (11-5 final 3rd possession) hit the woodwork, had the only CCC in the game and 5 half chances. But only 6 shots were on target. Norwich with only 5 shots had 4 on target.

As I said we have played a crazy tough schedule. But our shots on target % is 17th in the league (46%). I guess 50% is aiming too low. The league average is 49% and top is 59%. That being said we take so many shots that we are still 3rd in the league in shots on target with 69 through 8 games (Chelsea and United have 84 and 83). We are 19th in shots converted % at 5%. Ick. That includes 2 goals (25% of our total) from set pieces.

Any ideas? I've thought about ticking creative freedom and/or increasing the tempo. But really that's just spitballing. I guess since I'm so dominant defensively, I could go for the counter press.

I could put Tonali in the HB spot, but he seems like such a great CWB (attack or support) and I've got so many good midfielders I really don't need him there. I love how awesome this is defensively. I would rather win 1-0 than 4-3, I am all about clean sheets. The problem is too many 0-0's. If we'd have lit up Norwich I wouldn't be so worried. We've got such an easy schedule coming up over the next two months, and the league is so competitive at the top. I cannot afford to throw a bunch of 0-0 or 1-1 draws in there. I need to win nearly all of these games and take control of the league.

Maybe I'm overblowing the issues. The 4 draws are all against good teams, and we only allowed 1 goal total in those games. Of course we only scored one too. The loss to Norwich is explainable with all of the injuries and the side being tired after playing 2 games a week for nearly a month. But something isn't quite right.

Edited by Joey Numbaz
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This might be tough to read, but here are all of the player stats. Maybe something will jump out here?

Sorted by minutes played.

Screen Shot 2022-01-05 at 11.45.07 PM.png

Here's one, Haaland is getting 6.0 non-penalty shots per 90, which is kind of incredible, as the IF on the right.

Here's another. Haaland has only scored on 3 of 55 total non-penalty shots. Yikes.

Lautaro Martinez, mostly playing IF left with occasional false 9 has only scored 2-of-28 shots. More yikes.

Edited by Joey Numbaz
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@Joey Numbaz To me sounds like you are having hard time breaking down defensive sides. Or more elite teams who have very good defenders. Looking back at your tactic, I see that you are playing with very aggressive pressing and high line and narrow too. Is it possible that you are compressing them so much in their own half that there is no space left for your attackers to run into. Also I'm not sure how playing more narrow against a side like Norwich that's already probably defending in a very  low compressed block against you could help. 

So I would try to bring more width to your tactic and some more penetration from midfield. Because right now all of your attacking roles are on the wings. Low block AI is very good in defending flank attacks. You need more off the ball movement and one-twos through the middle to break such sides. While elite defenders will also have little trouble defending crosses in current ME.

I'm not a fan of your midfield roles. RPM and carrilero. It's not a bad combo per say but might work better on a more aggressive team mentality such as positive. When on Balanced they will both start with balanced individual mentality which is too conservative to provide penetration in the middle. And especially since you already have a holding role in HB. I run a similar formation and having no problems currently scoring goals. I use AP(a) and BBM in front of DLP (D).

You can read more about my own 4-3-3 attempt here:

 

Edited by crusadertsar
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Thanks for the ideas @crusadertsar. I'll mess around with it a little bit.

I actually like the roles, but I think you are right, they need a higher mentality in the middle.

I think my plan is going to be this - first original mentality:

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If I change to positive with underlap on both wings, and drop the 4 wide players to support, I become very fluid instead of structured which is kind of cool, even if it is just a label - I do think it's more than that, as my teams creative freedom familiarity changes, but I digress. It also means those guys will have attacking mentality but play with support instructions/backend coding and help more in both phases of the game.

I get the same mentality in the wings, but the defensive three move from Defensive to Cautious - the Wide players stay Positive/Attacking. The F9 stays cautious and the keeper is very attacking which I'm fine with, since Pickford is arguably the best distribution keeper in the world in my save. I am also switching from distribute to halfback to take short kicks to the back four.

I do wonder with the CB/HB going from defensive to cautious if it still makes sense to have them "stay wider" if it still makes sense to have them stay wider.

I like the CWB on support does not have "cross more often" and "cross from byline" like the attack version does. The IF on support doesn't have "gets further forward" which I'm fine with, I can always add that back. They'll get forward plenty anyway.

I figure if I go up two goals or need to close things out I can switch back to the base tactic, which while frustrating offensively did still outscore a tough schedule 19-4, 15-4 if you don't count the Community Shield.

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One other option would be to keep split it up. IFs/CWBa on the left, and IFa/CWBs on the right. Which actually suits Haaland more as an attack duty. I've got options I guess.

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Edited by Joey Numbaz
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I think I have nailed the sweet spot between possession and still being able to have attacking intent. I have tested this over two saves, the other being Celta Vigo with very impressive results. There are instructions on individual players to make it not too staid a tactic otherwise your team are just passing it around for the sake of it. Nearly all the players on both saves are technically proficient intelligent players which allows us to throttle most teams possession-wise. Can't state enough again how key the Wingbacks are in this.

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Juego di Posicion Florence.fmf

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/01/2022 at 11:48, Crazy_Ivan said:

I think I have nailed the sweet spot between possession and still being able to have attacking intent. I have tested this over two saves, the other being Celta Vigo with very impressive results. There are instructions on individual players to make it not too staid a tactic otherwise your team are just passing it around for the sake of it. Nearly all the players on both saves are technically proficient intelligent players which allows us to throttle most teams possession-wise. Can't state enough again how key the Wingbacks are in this.

Juego di Posicion Florence.fmf 44.24 kB · 21 downloads

This intrigued me since it is so different from how I usually play, so I decided to give it a go with Parma, a club with a squad well-suited to a 4-3-3 and a perfect regista in Franco Vazquez.

I played roughly half the season with your set-up unchanged (aside from using my own set-pieces) and while we were winning matches and dominating the possession I felt we were a bit stale in attack, I'd say about 80% of our goals came from either a cross from a wingback into the centre of the area headed in by Bobby English, a set-piece, or a long-shot, while the two inverted wingers were passengers contributing very little in terms of goals, assists or chance creation. With that in mind I made a few tweaks to try and add some more variety into our attack:

215976567_ParmaCalcio1913_Overview.thumb.png.3c152f3a4f07848bd30057bfe94060f8.png

Overloading the left flank to create space for Dennis Man on the right, giving us more options in the box and more routes towards good goalscoring opportunities than just crosses. The AP-s will tuck in centrally and look for the overlapping wingback, a through-ball to the striker. switching the play to the other flank or recycling the ball back into midfield. Since the WB-a running to the byline and crossing towards the centre was creating many goals I tried to encourage him to do it more often, hence the overlap instruction. The WB-s has individual instructions to cross more often and cross from byline, so he mostly behaves the same as a WB-a with the ball.

622879743_SerieBKT_Stages.thumb.png.8671daa590f0f82b0a144bdf25b7f65d.png

We won the league. dominated the possession metrics and after the tweaks we played some really good, creative football with a good variation of goals (ignore the goals against, Buffon at 44 is leakier than Swiss cheese). Dennis Man went from having scored a single goal in the first ~20 matches playing as an IW-s before the tweak to scoring 10 goals in the final 18 matches as a raumdeuter.

My regista had a season for the ages:

926026103_FrancoVzquez_Attributes.thumb.png.8faa4057c619d80a50809233bde429ec.png

His stats are inflated as he was our primary set-piece taker, but with 5 non-penalty goals, about a half-dozen non-set-piece assists, countless key passes and a 92% pass completion percentage while playing in the DM slot is a fantastic season by any measure. Vazquez was born to play regista! Who is Andrea Pirlo anyway?

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14 hours ago, zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz said:

This intrigued me since it is so different from how I usually play, so I decided to give it a go with Parma, a club with a squad well-suited to a 4-3-3 and a perfect regista in Franco Vazquez.

I played roughly half the season with your set-up unchanged (aside from using my own set-pieces) and while we were winning matches and dominating the possession I felt we were a bit stale in attack, I'd say about 80% of our goals came from either a cross from a wingback into the centre of the area headed in by Bobby English, a set-piece, or a long-shot, while the two inverted wingers were passengers contributing very little in terms of goals, assists or chance creation. With that in mind I made a few tweaks to try and add some more variety into our attack:

215976567_ParmaCalcio1913_Overview.thumb.png.3c152f3a4f07848bd30057bfe94060f8.png

Overloading the left flank to create space for Dennis Man on the right, giving us more options in the box and more routes towards good goalscoring opportunities than just crosses. The AP-s will tuck in centrally and look for the overlapping wingback, a through-ball to the striker. switching the play to the other flank or recycling the ball back into midfield. Since the WB-a running to the byline and crossing towards the centre was creating many goals I tried to encourage him to do it more often, hence the overlap instruction. The WB-s has individual instructions to cross more often and cross from byline, so he mostly behaves the same as a WB-a with the ball.

622879743_SerieBKT_Stages.thumb.png.8671daa590f0f82b0a144bdf25b7f65d.png

We won the league. dominated the possession metrics and after the tweaks we played some really good, creative football with a good variation of goals (ignore the goals against, Buffon at 44 is leakier than Swiss cheese). Dennis Man went from having scored a single goal in the first ~20 matches playing as an IW-s before the tweak to scoring 10 goals in the final 18 matches as a raumdeuter.

My regista had a season for the ages:

926026103_FrancoVzquez_Attributes.thumb.png.8faa4057c619d80a50809233bde429ec.png

His stats are inflated as he was our primary set-piece taker, but with 5 non-penalty goals, about a half-dozen non-set-piece assists, countless key passes and a 92% pass completion percentage while playing in the DM slot is a fantastic season by any measure. Vazquez was born to play regista! Who is Andrea Pirlo anyway?

Great result💪🏻

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