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Maximizing Martin Odegaard's potential - Wolverhampton Wanderers


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Hello everyone.

I'm currently playing as Wolves in the premier league in the year 2021 and the last 2 season we played with this tactic.

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Main objective was trying to play quick counter-attacking football with short passes starting from the back, coupled with very intense high pressing in the opposition half, with Ruben Neves being the main creator of the team, often recieving it short from the defenders and launching quick long passes to the forwards. It worked great and we ended up 6th in the league and runner ups in the europa league in the first season, as well as achieving champions league football in the third season by ending up 4th in the league (as well as reaching the finals of the europa league again). 

Main problem was, expectedly, getting through more organized defenses, as well as not being able to completely dominate possession because of us playing so high and fast attacking footbal. Coupled with this, i wanted to make my team a bit more unpredictable as well as trying to play a bit more patiently (without moving to a slow patient tempo approach), a bit more toned down from our high and fast attacking football approach.

So i thought about bringing a more skilled midfielder with high attributes in vision, decisions, anticipation, teamwork and having the technical skills aswell to try to add a bit more creativity in midfield. Odegaard was available for rather cheap and him being only 22 seemed like a very good long term aquisition for the team. 

This are my tactics now. I've barely made too many changes as i wanted to test if by only bringing in Odegaard and changing his role in the tactic it would give me the edge im looking for.

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Right CD changed from BPD to CD because i wanted the ball to stay closer to the ground during early construcion phase and DLP changed to defensive duty to make him less inclined to make offensive passes and try to play it safe to Odegaard.

Counter-attack was removed to make the team a bit less offensive during transition and to have my midfield (specially Odegaard) more time on the ball during transitions. 

So far results have been good, keeping our form from last year, but the style hasn't suffered too many changes. Odegaard is making key passes but most of them are coming from the DLP (Neves). 

So what do i want to do now? I want Odegaard to create as many chances as he can. I want him to lead the team in key passes and chances created, as well as helping the team keep the ball better and trying to at least have more possession than my opponent in most matches. I would ideally like to keep the DLP (D) role as it is because i do want him to be the main ball distributor from deep and be the man responsable to transition the play from defense to attack. 

This is Odegaard in 2021. Thanks in advance if anyone can give their thoughts about my tactics. Cheers.

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PPM's are hidden in the picture but they include PLay One-Twos, Dictates Tempo, Look For Pass Rather Than Attempting to Shoot, Likes To Beat Man Repeatedly, Cuts Inside From Left Wing and i'm curretly teaching him to Try Killer Balls Often.

PS. If anyone saw today's Man City vs Real Madrid, think of De Bruyne's role in Guardiola's tactics during the game.

Edited by Sebas
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hace 2 horas, Experienced Defender dijo:

Which of the 2 tactics you want to get feedback and potential advice on?

Thanks for the reply. It's the second tactic (the one withthe advanced playmaker) the one i'm asking feedback for.

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15 hours ago, Sebas said:

Thanks for the reply. It's the second tactic (the one withthe advanced playmaker) the one i'm asking feedback for.

I definitely don't like the use of 2 playmaker roles (DLP and AP in this case) in close vicinity, even for tactics that are heavily possession-oriented. So that's something I would certainly change.

Not sure what's the point of an instruction such as pass into space in this type of tactic (with very aggressive defensive instructions and generally oriented toward controlling matches, at least in terms of intention).

 

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I would play with more width and also play Traore as a Winger rather than IF. 

I'm not sure if Neves suits it but you can play him as a Volante with another DM with him who's a pure anchorman or DM. Odegaard then becomes the only playmaker as an AP. 

I suppose you also have him on set plays he should be great on them. 

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You could perhaps turn the DLPd into a DMd, but with PIs like Take More Risks/ More Direct passing so that he still can play more incisive passes. Also set distribution to a specific individual and make that individual your DMd. That way when building out from the back, the DM will be to whom the keeper will try to distribute. 

Your team in general will try to seek out Odegard more as he will now be the sole playmaker in the team.

Edited by poobington
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hace 4 horas, Experienced Defender dijo:

I definitely don't like the use of 2 playmaker roles (DLP and AP in this case) in close vicinity, even for tactics that are heavily possession-oriented. So that's something I would certainly change.

Not sure what's the point of an instruction such as pass into space in this type of tactic (with very aggressive defensive instructions and generally oriented toward controlling matches, at least in terms of intention).

 

I wanted to have one player recieving the bal from deep and then moving it to more forward players (Neves) and another one tasked with being the main offensive hub in the team in terms of key passes and chances created (Odegaard). 2 playmaker roles made sense in my mind because of their relevance in transitions and offensive plays and having read lots of threads about possession football, there were lots of tactics with more than 1 playmaker in the middle so i thought why not?  They do tend to pass to each other too much (which is was generally happens with 2 PM close to each other i guess). Atm im more tempted to change Odegaard's role rather than Neves because i consider Neves to be the player i want the team to play through the most, having the better mental attributes and being in the best position to recieve the ball, make more passes and help me making switches from one flank to the other. What role would you suggest for Odegaard?

Regarding pass into space, i'm using it because i wanted to make my team a bit more patient in possession but still very offensive oriented and always looking to put pressure on the opponent on and in possession. I removed counter-attack to be a bit more patient during offensive transitions but without pass into space it risky passes numbers dropped a lot. I also have lots of great players upfront with great off the ball/anticipation/decisions as well as fantastic pace so i wanted to make the most of them and both Neves and Odegaard.

Having watched Man City against Real that's what i saw. The number of through balls KDB played in between CB and Fullback were a lot and i wanted to adapt that into my tactic. I may be wrong in that interpretation but that is why i didnt removed pass into space.

hace 2 horas, karanhsingh dijo:

I would play with more width and also play Traore as a Winger rather than IF. 

I'm not sure if Neves suits it but you can play him as a Volante with another DM with him who's a pure anchorman or DM. Odegaard then becomes the only playmaker as an AP. 

I suppose you also have him on set plays he should be great on them. 

I also thought it was weird using him but, first, i have offensive full backs that like to stretch the pitch so i didn't wanted to play two players in the same flank being wide. Second, i had already decided about playing with a striker in support duty in advance, and playing a winger with a striker dropping into midfield didn't make much sense to me. In the end. In the end it somehow worked out; Traore has been by far my best player in the last 2 seasons, scoring 10+ goals in the league both seasons and generally being very reliably for opening up defenses (although his end product in terms of passes is obv not the best because of his stats).

He also somehow has scored a couple of bangers (i can recall at least 10 fantastic finishes both inside and outside the area) which i have no idea how to explain lol since he has poor finishing and mentals to do them. 

Turning him into a Winger (either Attack or Support) would mean i have to make changes to the roles as well. Which ones would you suggest?

Also not sure about Neves being a SV since he has poor speed attributes and off the ball. I don't feel he has the physical attributes (nor the PPM's) to play such a dynamic role. Also i wanted him to stay back and orchestate from deep so that role doesn't make much sense to me.

hace 2 horas, poobington dijo:

You could perhaps turn the DLPd into a DMd, but with PIs like Take More Risks/ More Direct passing so that he still can play more incisive passes. Also set distribution to a specific individual and make that individual your DMd. That way when building out from the back, the DM will be to whom the keeper will try to distribute. 

Your team in general will try to seek out Odegard more as he will now be the sole playmaker in the team.

This is something i thought about a lot but ended up discarding. Mainly because i still want Neves to be the main playmaker of the team. I also don't necessarely wanted Neves to play too many through balls/direct passes and skip Odegaard while trying them. 

What i want from Neves is to recieve the ball, and try to play it quickly to any of the front three + Odegaard if they have space so that they can create chances. 

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31 minutes ago, Sebas said:

I wanted to have one player recieving the bal from deep and then moving it to more forward players (Neves) and another one tasked with being the main offensive hub in the team in terms of key passes and chances created (Odegaard). 2 playmaker roles made sense in my mind because of their relevance in transitions and offensive plays and having read lots of threads about possession football, there were lots of tactics with more than 1 playmaker in the middle so i thought why not?  They do tend to pass to each other too much (which is was generally happens with 2 PM close to each other i guess). Atm im more tempted to change Odegaard's role rather than Neves because i consider Neves to be the player i want the team to play through the most, having the better mental attributes and being in the best position to recieve the ball, make more passes and help me making switches from one flank to the other. What role would you suggest for Odegaard?

Honestly, I was initially thinking about Odegaard as a mezzala on attack duty, but his finishing is unfortunately too bad. But a mezzala on support could do the job (assuming you want Neves to remain a playmaker). 

But at the same time, I would probably make a couple more tweaks in order to get better overall balance and make your attacking patterns less one-dimensional. 

36 minutes ago, Sebas said:

Regarding pass into space, i'm using it because i wanted to make my team a bit more patient in possession but still very offensive oriented and always looking to put pressure on the opponent on and in possession. I removed counter-attack to be a bit more patient during offensive transitions but without pass into space it risky passes numbers dropped a lot. I also have lots of great players upfront with great off the ball/anticipation/decisions as well as fantastic pace so i wanted to make the most of them and both Neves and Odegaard.

Having watched Man City against Real that's what i saw. The number of through balls KDB played in between CB and Fullback were a lot and i wanted to adapt that into my tactic. I may be wrong in that interpretation but that is why i didnt removed pass into space.

First off, if you want more risky passes, you can use the player instructions "take more risks" for certain players. Secondly, pass into space and risky passes (killer through balls) are not the same thing in FM (passing into space includes all passes played into space in front of a teammate, not just killer balls trying to split the opposition defense). For example, your CB can play a pass into space for your fullback/wing-back, but that's not considered a risky pass in FM terms. Although it can prove risky for you defense-wise in case the CB makes a wrong decision in terms of the timing of such a pass. 

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hace 43 minutos, Experienced Defender dijo:

(1) Honestly, I was initially thinking about Odegaard as a mezzala on attack duty, but his finishing is unfortunately too bad. But a mezzala on support could do the job (assuming you want Neves to remain a playmaker). 

But at the same time, I would probably make a couple more tweaks in order to get better overall balance and make your attacking patterns less one-dimensional. 

(2) First off, if you want more risky passes, you can use the player instructions "take more risks" for certain players. Secondly, pass into space and risky passes (killer through balls) are not the same thing in FM (passing into space includes all passes played into space in front of a teammate, not just killer balls trying to split the opposition defense). For example, your CB can play a pass into space for your fullback/wing-back, but that's not considered a risky pass in FM terms. Although it can prove risky for you defense-wise in case the CB makes a wrong decision in terms of the timing of such a pass. 

(1) Tbh i'm still unsure on who should be the playmaker. I've practically discarded the option of using 2 PMs because they pass to each other too much and that slow downs my transitions, but having Neves be the PM i think goes against the main reason of this thread which is getting the best out of Odegaard and having lead the team in terms of key passes and chances created. I'm considering changing Neves to be a DM (D) in order to have his mentality low so that he doesn't take too many offensive decisions and ensuring he looks out more for Odegaard rather than playing it straight to the 3 more forward players. Odegaard would keep his role as an AP (S) as i think the role in itself does basically what i want from him.

In order to still get Neves to perform kinda of like a DLP, i'm tempted to have him learn some PPM's such as Drops deep to get the ball and perhaps play long passes (or something like that, i don't play in english sorry :lol:). He already has dictates tempo and likes to switch the ball for the other flank. I guess i'm looking for a Xabi Alonso kind of role from Ruben Neves.

What do you think of this? Would it be better to have Odegaard be the PM or Neves? And regarding both cases which changes (in term of player roles) would you make?

(2) Regarding pass into space, that's a very interesting point you make. Does the PPM plays killer balls often does not directly traduces to having a player basically play more passes into space as a PI? If Odegaard had that PPM (which i'm having him learning it) and was playing a role that didn't instruct him to play more through balls, would he still play those "defense splitting passes" as much as if he was playing with a role that instructed him to play more through balls (for example, AP (S)?

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This is quite an interesting one, as it's something I'm trying to do with Asensio in my Madrid save as well haha. (And tried with Zaniolo in my Roma Save but only shortly cause I didn't want to make stuff collapse.)

While he gets around 2 to 3 keypasses a game, most of his chances created are set pieces. Now, I am an elite team so teams park the bus against me so I rarely see through balls.

Like you, I play with a DLP(D) as DM (used to be support but he was stealing Asensio's thunder in terms of distributing). Initially I've set his and the passing of the partner to take less risks. While they do find him now, I still find the DLP to just completely skip over the rest of the midfield to get it to the wingbacks or wingers. 

I haven't tried it yet, but I'd try changing the DM to a different role. Perhaps the Defensive Midfielder one or maybe even Half Back. I find that allowing the Playmaker to roam helps out cause he just finds pockets of space.

Alternatively, if you want to keep Neves as DLP (Can't blame you. He's just that good.), you might want to switch Odegaard to either Mezzala (I didn't really have success with Attack this edition unlike the last 2 editions tho) but switvh him around with Dendoncker cause I found that the Inside Forward and Mezzalla get into each others' spaces a lot so you intially get a clash where 1 just drowns. 

Alternatively, perhaps a Central Midfielder(a) with roam position and get further forward might ve a possibility. He'll get a lot more in and around the box. This coupled with the PPM "Looks for pass rather than attempt to score" might help.

Otherwise, relatable, since I've been trying to unlock the puzzle of the 'creative midfielder' in this edition as well to little success in terms of stats from open play.

Edited by RVP32
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hace 4 minutos, RVP32 dijo:

This is quite an interesting one, as it's something I'm trying to do with Asensio in my Madrid save as well haha. (And tried with Zaniolo in my Roma Save but only shortly cause I didn't want to make stuff collapse.)

While he gets around 2 to 3 keypasses a game, most of his chances created are set pieces. Now, I am an elite team so teams park the bus against me so I rarely see through balls.

Like you, I play with a DLP(D) as DM (used to be support but he was stealing Asensio's thunder in terms of distributing). Initially I've set his and the passing of the partner to take less risks. While they do find him now, I still find the DLP to just completely skip over the rest of the midfield to get it to the wingbacks or wingers. 

I haven't tried it yet, but I'd try changing the DM to a different role. Perhaps the Defensive Midfielder one or maybe even Half Back. I find that allowing the Playmaker to roam helps out cause he just finds pockets of space.

Alternatively, if you want to keep Neves as DLP (Can't blame you. He's just that good.), you might want to switch Odegaard to either Mezzala (I didn't really have success with Attack this edition unlike the last 2 editions tho) but switvh him around with Dendoncker cause I found that the Inside Forward and Mezzalla get into each others' spaces a lot so you intially get a clash where 1 just drowns. 

Alternatively, perhaps a Central Midfielder(a) with roam position and get further forward might ve a possibility. He'll get a lot more in and around the box. This coupled with the PPM "Looks for pass rather than attempt to score" might help.

Otherwise, relatable, since I've been trying to unlock the puzzle of the 'creative midfielder' in this edition as well to little success in terms of stats from open play.

Thanks for your reply and yes, i think that even if Neves is the better player now and he's one of the best midfields i can trust with orchestating from deep, if i want to unlock Odegaard's potential he will have to be the playmaker and Neves will have to take the second seat.

I'm leaning towards a simple DM (D) with no PIs because i need him in defense duty so he doesn't try to play too proactively and generally prefers a more safer option, hopefully directly to Odegaard. HB i think is not the best choice in my case because Neves, while having great mentals, doesn't have the attributes needed so that i can trust him to be a transitionally center back durings certain phases of play. PPM's i think will have to be carefully choosen in order for him to still take a more commanding role in midfield he already has dictates tempo and likes to switch ball to other flank which is nice, i'm guessing drops deep to get the ball would be a sensible choice too. No PI's because i don't want him to be too expansive with his passing (only options are play more through balls and more direct passing) and skip Odegaard.

Regardless of the role change, i think that he'll still see plently of the ball even if he's not the playmaker because of the TI's play out of defense and play shorter passes, which will keep the ball on the ground during early buildup stages and the ball will naturally flow through my DM (Neves) and then next to my AP (S)

Regarding Odegaard, as i wrote recently, AP (S) seems to be the role more closely to what i'm looking for. On paper Its set on a positive mentality so he will be proactive on the ball and instructed to play more through balls while refraining from shooting from outside the box. Midfield makes sense to me this way, it is perhaps the rest of the team which needs more tweaking as @Experienced Defender said, which i'm trying to figure out how to set.

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3 hours ago, Sebas said:

Tbh i'm still unsure on who should be the playmaker. I've practically discarded the option of using 2 PMs because they pass to each other too much and that slow downs my transitions, but having Neves be the PM i think goes against the main reason of this thread which is getting the best out of Odegaard and having lead the team in terms of key passes and chances created

Why do you think that you have to play a player in a playmaker role in order to get the best/most out of him, especially in terms of key passes and/or created chances?

A common misconception about playmakers is exactly that - i.e. the assumption that they are the ones supposed to create most chances and make most goal assists. But more often than not, the playmaker is actually the one that plays the pass preceding the assist, rather than being the assistant himself. Of course, it does not mean that a playmaker will never assist or make a pass leading directly to a goal chance. Sometimes your playmaker (role) can really happen to be your main assistant or chance creator. But that's not what playmakers are primarily about. Instead, their key responsibility is to organize your attacks. 

4 hours ago, Sebas said:

I'm considering changing Neves to be a DM (D) in order to have his mentality low so that he doesn't take too many offensive decisions and ensuring he looks out more for Odegaard rather than playing it straight to the 3 more forward players. Odegaard would keep his role as an AP (S) as i think the role in itself does basically what i want from him.

In order to still get Neves to perform kinda of like a DLP, i'm tempted to have him learn some PPM's such as Drops deep to get the ball and perhaps play long passes (or something like that, i don't play in english sorry :lol:). He already has dictates tempo and likes to switch the ball for the other flank. I guess i'm looking for a Xabi Alonso kind of role from Ruben Neves.

What do you think of this? Would it be better to have Odegaard be the PM or Neves?

Taking into account what I just wrote above, I would be more inclined to keep Neves as a DLP on defend duty in DM position and switch Odegard to a mezzala on support duty asking him via PIs to dribble more and take more passing risks (with an additional couple of tweaks elsewhere). Not because Odegaard is not a good choice for the AP role - to the contrary, I think he is perfectly suited to play as an AP. But the "problem" is that Neves IMHO is by far the best suited for a DLP (if I remember his attributes correctly). 

 

4 hours ago, Sebas said:

Does the PPM plays killer balls often does not directly traduces to having a player basically play more passes into space as a PI?

Killer balls are passes into space behind the opposition defense for a teammate (usually an attacking one) that - when successful - should lead to a one-on-one situation with the keeper (basically a clear-cut chance). Passes into space (team instruction) involve more types of passes than just killer balls (which I already explained in my earlier comment). 

 

4 hours ago, Sebas said:

play more passes into space as a PI?

There is no "pass into space" PI. Only TI. Do not confuse the pass into space TI with the take more risks PI. 

 

4 hours ago, Sebas said:

f Odegaard had that PPM (which i'm having him learning it) and was playing a role that didn't instruct him to play more through balls, would he still play those "defense splitting passes" as much as if he was playing with a role that instructed him to play more through balls (for example, AP (S)?

If a player has the trait of trying killer balls often, he will look to play those killer balls whenever possible regardless of his role. And the more intelligent a player is (anticipation, decisions, vision), the more likely he will be to make the right decision as to when he should attempt such a pass and when not (although that  - just like anything else - will be partly affected by certain elements of your tactic as a whole). 

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26 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

A common misconception about playmakers is exactly that - i.e. the assumption that they are the ones supposed to create most chances and make most goal assists. But more often than not, the playmaker is actually the one that plays the pass preceding the assist, rather than being the assistant himself. Of course, it does not mean that a playmaker will never assist or make a pass leading directly to a goal chance. Sometimes your playmaker (role) can really happen to be your main assistant or chance creator. But that's not what playmakers are primarily about. Instead, their key responsibility is to organize your attacks. 

This is often called a "hockey assist" because in ice hockey (possibly field hockey, although I'm not sure) an assist is awarded to the players who made the two passes before the goal. When playing with a Regista, many times they'd have a fairly small single-digit number of assists, because they were always playing the ball that allowed somebody else to make the killer pass.

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hace 43 minutos, Experienced Defender dijo:

(1) Why do you think that you have to play a player in a playmaker role in order to get the best/most out of him, especially in terms of key passes and/or created chances?

A common misconception about playmakers is exactly that - i.e. the assumption that they are the ones supposed to create most chances and make most goal assists. But more often than not, the playmaker is actually the one that plays the pass preceding the assist, rather than being the assistant himself. Of course, it does not mean that a playmaker will never assist or make a pass leading directly to a goal chance. Sometimes your playmaker (role) can really happen to be your main assistant or chance creator. But that's not what playmakers are primarily about. Instead, their key responsibility is to organize your attacks. 

(2) Taking into account what I just wrote above, I would be more inclined to keep Neves as a DLP on defend duty in DM position and switch Odegard to a mezzala on support duty asking him via PIs to dribble more and take more passing risks (3) (with an additional couple of tweaks elsewhere). Not because Odegaard is not a good choice for the AP role - to the contrary, I think he is perfectly suited to play as an AP. But the "problem" is that Neves IMHO is by far the best suited for a DLP (if I remember his attributes correctly). 

 

Killer balls are passes into space behind the opposition defense for a teammate (usually an attacking one) that - when successful - should lead to a one-on-one situation with the keeper (basically a clear-cut chance). Passes into space (team instruction) involve more types of passes than just killer balls (which I already explained in my earlier comment). 

 

(4) There is no "pass into space" PI. Only TI. Do not confuse the pass into space TI with the take more risks PI. 

 

If a player has the trait of trying killer balls often, he will look to play those killer balls whenever possible regardless of his role. And the more intelligent a player is (anticipation, decisions, vision), the more likely he will be to make the right decision as to when he should attempt such a pass and when not (although that  - just like anything else - will be partly affected by certain elements of your tactic as a whole). 

(1) I do agree that that it's not a requirement for him to be a playmaker in order to increase the amount of key passes/chances creates he makes. My B2B also racks a fair amount of key passes and hes not a playmaker. Its just that the reason for him being a playmaker is that i want the team to look out for him and have him on the ball a lot. Also, i fear that if i play Neves as a playmaker, then when Odegaard has the ball and the opposition defense is in good position, instead of trying to unlock the defense via a killer ball or a drible, or try to open the pitch with a ball into space to the wings, he will probably lean more towards a pass to Neves because now Neves is the main creator and the main ball magnet of the team. 

(2) Agreed and the only reason im hesitant to turn Neves into a DM (D) is that it may be a waste of his abilities. Will try both options though (DM+AP and DLP+Mez) as your idea makes sense too. 

(3) May i ask which other changes/tweaks would you suggest?

(4) Apologies for sounding too nooby with this but i've always had trouble understanding what each TI's, PI's and PPM's does exactly. In this case i always thought that the TI Pass Into Space was, in escence, an instruction to basically ask the whole (or most of the team) to Take More Risks the same way was asking my whole team to pass it shorter (as a TI) would reduce every players passing directness individually. Perhaps i'm way too old school but in pre 2010's FM team instructions would be show in the player instructions interface as having an effect directly on a specific player instrucion.

Althogh now that i think of it, perhaps the fact that they don't even sound the same was a big hint all along lol.

 

Edited by Sebas
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8 minutes ago, Sebas said:

(1) I do agree that that it's not a requirement for him to be a playmaker in order to increase the amount of key passes/chances creates he makes. My B2B also racks a fair amount of key passes and hes not a playmaker. Its just that the reason for him being a playmaker is that i want the team to look out for him and have him on the ball a lot. Also, i fear that if i play Neves as a playmaker, then when Odegaard has the ball and the opposition defense is in good position, instead of trying to unlock the defense via a killer ball or a drible, or try to open the pitch with a ball into space to the wings, he will probably lean more towards a pass to Neves because now Neves is the main creator and the main ball magnet of the team

Players - especially intelligent ones like Odeegard - do not behave so one-dimensionally ;) 

 

9 minutes ago, Sebas said:

(3) May i ask which other changes/tweaks would you suggest?

Besides toning down out-of-possession TIs, i would sightly modify the setup of roles and duties:

F9

IFat                                  IWsu

MEZsu     CAR

DLPde

WBsu    CDde  CDde   FBat

SK

In-possession TIs might also need a minor tweak or two, but better go step by step (as opposed to changing too much at once). 

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hace 46 minutos, Experienced Defender dijo:

Besides toning down out-of-possession TIs, i would sightly modify the setup of roles and duties:

F9

IFat                                  IWsu

MEZsu     CAR

DLPde

WBsu    CDde  CDde   FBat

SK

In-possession TIs might also need a minor tweak or two, but better go step by step (as opposed to changing too much at once). 

Thanks for the feedback, really apreciated. 

A couple of questions though:

1) Why the switch of wing of both IF and IW? Currently Traore has been fantastic as an IF on the right but playing as an IW i don't feel he has the technical/mental attributes to play a less offensive/direct role, let a lone a supporting role that restrics his main ability which is just running at the defense/into space as an IWs is not instructed to make forward runs more often. 

2) I thought that the B2B was maybe a role i could change as i felt that with a MEZs alongisde him and a very offensive trio, having another role that has the PI to roam from position would make my midfield to exposed for counter-attacks. I'm currently debating between a BWMs and a Carrilero. 

What i want to asked though (which is a bit out of topic though so if you want to you can answer me through a DM if you think i deviate too much from the main topic of this thread) is that the CAR's only PI is to stay wider. However, the role description seems to suggest that the role is designed for tactics without players in the wings (such as midfield diamonds or 3 atb formations with no wingers) and knowing that there are certain player roles with under the hood behaviours that go deeper than what their PIs may define, what i want to ask is basically what does a Carrilero do (does he just stays wider? is it just a more conservative Mezzala then?) and is there any difference in behaviour in using them in formations with wingers and without wingers (such as a midfield diamond)?

3) Regarding out of possession TIs and keeping in mind i want to still play a high-pressing system that induces mistakes from opponents defenders and helps us recover the ball in more advantegous positions, which TIs would you suggest to remove/add? 

As always, thanks for your time man.

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12 hours ago, Sebas said:

Why the switch of wing of both IF and IW? Currently Traore has been fantastic as an IF on the right but playing as an IW i don't feel he has the technical/mental attributes to play a less offensive/direct role, let a lone a supporting role that restrics his main ability which is just running at the defense/into space as an IWs is not instructed to make forward runs more often

i understand where you are coming from, but you have to consider the whole context of a tactic.

Btw, can Traore play in AML and Lozano in AMR? If they can, then it could solve the problem in a pretty easy way ;) 

12 hours ago, Sebas said:

I thought that the B2B was maybe a role i could change as i felt that with a MEZs alongisde him and a very offensive trio, having another role that has the PI to roam from position would make my midfield to exposed for counter-attacks. I'm currently debating between a BWMs and a Carrilero

Both roles fit nicely with the rest of the setup, so you just need to see which one would better suit the players you intend to use in that position (MCR). BWM is a bit more defensive-minded but also more aggressive with his tackling and pressing. Carrilero is more balanced in terms of what the role offers in both phases of play. 

 

12 hours ago, Sebas said:

What i want to asked though (which is a bit out of topic though so if you want to you can answer me through a DM if you think i deviate too much from the main topic of this thread) is that the CAR's only PI is to stay wider. However, the role description seems to suggest that the role is designed for tactics without players in the wings (such as midfield diamonds or 3 atb formations with no wingers)

Since FM19, the carrilero can be employed in any kind of system (formation), despite what the description says or suggests. Only in FM18 (when the role was first introduced) there tended to be some strange behavior on the part of carrileros when used in non-narrow formations. But that's no longer the case. 

 

12 hours ago, Sebas said:

and knowing that there are certain player roles with under the hood behaviours that go deeper than what their PIs may define, what i want to ask is basically what does a Carrilero do (does he just stays wider? is it just a more conservative Mezzala then?) and is there any difference in behaviour in using them in formations with wingers and without wingers (such as a midfield diamond)?

The carrilero is essentially a covering midfield role, which means his primary responsibility is to provide defensive cover for an attack-minded teammate on his flank (usually a fullback or wing-back). Alternatively, a carrilero can sometimes be utilized as a sort of link between an attacking winger and a more conservative fullback. You can also look at him as a lighter version of BBM (of sorts). A very useful role in general (provided of course that it's played by a suitable player). 

 

12 hours ago, Sebas said:

Regarding out of possession TIs and keeping in mind i want to still play a high-pressing system that induces mistakes from opponents defenders and helps us recover the ball in more advantegous positions, which TIs would you suggest to remove/add?

I always prefer to have the optimal level of defensive compactness, which means that the D-line should be one notch higher than the LOE (the exact opposite of your current setting). When it comes to pressing, I prefer a split block over an increased pressing urgency for the entire team. 

Which basically comes down to this:

- higher D-line, standard LOE + split block via PIs for the 4-5 most advanced players

That's the kind of setting that usually works best for me. However, that does not mean other combinations cannot work or that you must follow my example. 

P.S: I was thinking about how Odegaard could be employed as an AP without Neves being another PM. Here is what came to my mind:

APsu     CAR

HB

With Neves as the carrilero and Dendoncker as the HB. Because if I remember correctly, Dendoncker is more defensively reliable than Neves in terms of their respective attributes. 

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You can play him at AMR as an AP(a). That way when Neves hits him with a key pass, Odegaard can attack the box and thread the needle to the AML, ST, or onrushing central midfielders. He doesn't have amazing speed, but Odegaard is agile with extremely high flair and dribbling, so you should want to get him on the ball and in space to make defenders nervous. Of course, if you're going to to do that then you need a finisher at CM(a) and/or AML. I don't think you want to leave all of the goalscoring excellence to just the ST.

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On 09/08/2020 at 18:17, Experienced Defender said:

A common misconception about playmakers is exactly that - i.e. the assumption that they are the ones supposed to create most chances and make most goal assists. But more often than not, the playmaker is actually the one that plays the pass preceding the assist, rather than being the assistant himself. Of course, it does not mean that a playmaker will never assist or make a pass leading directly to a goal chance. Sometimes your playmaker (role) can really happen to be your main assistant or chance creator. But that's not what playmakers are primarily about. Instead, their key responsibility is to organize your attacks. 

THIS, so much this. This is a misconception I have had about the game so much. @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 's thread on the Caixa academy helped me to see this differently, as he would have Dantas playing like Neves as the deepest midfielder in a DLP-D or S role, but Dantas just merely pulled all of the strings. The players all ahead of that point were the players who got the goals and assists.

In my current save I'm working on adjusting the PRD right now of my midfield. My star has been an AP-S the last 2 years and one really well with about 5-8 goals and 10-15 assists, which is by far the best I have ever gotten out of an actual playmaker role. I'm now shifting his role to play further forward as a runner/creator, with a DLP behind him. I think this is what you need for Odeegard, he's dynamic and wants to move and then create. You want neves likely on DLP like others have said, but tell him less risky passes so he doesn't bypass the midfield. Then put Odegaard into a runner type position. Mez recommendation is good, but I would honestly go with a simple CM-S, with moves into channels and roams from position check on, also possibly dribbles more. 

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hace 9 horas, Overmars dijo:

You can play him at AMR as an AP(a). That way when Neves hits him with a key pass, Odegaard can attack the box and thread the needle to the AML, ST, or onrushing central midfielders. He doesn't have amazing speed, but Odegaard is agile with extremely high flair and dribbling, so you should want to get him on the ball and in space to make defenders nervous. Of course, if you're going to to do that then you need a finisher at CM(a) and/or AML. I don't think you want to leave all of the goalscoring excellence to just the ST.

That is something im having thoughts on, specially against more offensive team in order to move Odegaard from the middle and have a more competent defensive option in midfield. Would you still play a striker in a support role with Odegaard as a APs in the wing?

hace 5 horas, 04texag dijo:

THIS, so much this. This is a misconception I have had about the game so much. @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 's thread on the Caixa academy helped me to see this differently, as he would have Dantas playing like Neves as the deepest midfielder in a DLP-D or S role, but Dantas just merely pulled all of the strings. The players all ahead of that point were the players who got the goals and assists.

In my current save I'm working on adjusting the PRD right now of my midfield. My star has been an AP-S the last 2 years and one really well with about 5-8 goals and 10-15 assists, which is by far the best I have ever gotten out of an actual playmaker role. I'm now shifting his role to play further forward as a runner/creator, with a DLP behind him. I think this is what you need for Odeegard, he's dynamic and wants to move and then create. You want neves likely on DLP like others have said, but tell him less risky passes so he doesn't bypass the midfield. Then put Odegaard into a runner type position. Mez recommendation is good, but I would honestly go with a simple CM-S, with moves into channels and roams from position check on, also possibly dribbles more. 

I agree although i never said that i wanted Odegaard to be the one getting the assists. I want to make him the focus of our attacks and lead the team in terms of key passes and chances created. Following that example, in general, i want him to be the one making those hockey passes into my striker/wingers/full backs.

---0---

New tactic is shaping up like this:

(Jota) F9

(Lozano) IWa                                           (Traoré) IFa

(Dendocker) CAR          (Odegaard) MEZs

(Neves) DLPd

(Vinagre) WBs    (Coady) CB    (Ferro) CB    (Doherty) WBs

(Patricio) SKd

Team Instructions:

  • In possession:
    • Play out of the back
    • Shorter passing
    • Higher Tempo
  • In Transition:
    • Counter-press
    • Counter-attack
    • Distribute quickly
  • Out of possession:
    • Much higher defensive line
    • Higher line of engagement
    • More Urgent
    • Prevent GK distribution

Initially went with a bit of a lower block as @Experienced Defender defender suggested (higher DL and standard LOE) but i didn't felt the pressing was agressive enough. Keeping the principle of compactness he suggested (quite clever actually and meant we were a bit too stretched vertically when defending before) i then went with much higher DL and higher LOE. Counter-attack was added back as i didn't felt we were taking advantage of our speed on the counter (specially Traoré).

I tried a IWs and WBa combo on the left but ended up missing Lozano's runs on the left and felt that Odegaard didn't have enough options for through balls with just an IFa making runs.

Regarding Odegaard i went with a MEZs mainly because Neves is just too good to not be the more natural choice of playmaker in the team. After initially a very inconsistent start of the league from Odegaard he is now the third player in the league with the most key passes which is one of the objectives of the tactic, so that is great to have achieved that. I still think that he could be a bit more directly involved with more chances created but he's not taking set pieces and that may be the factor that is keeping his chances created numbers low in contrast with the best of the league (although Traoré is the player in the team with most chances created and he doesn't take any set pieces). I'm also fearing that his lack of consistency may be because of a lower number of that hidden attribute as the coach report mentions that he is an inconsistent player. If he is then i may be a bit hesitant to eventually move him into a playmaker role because i need someone that is consistent with his performances pulling the strings of the team.

On a side note, both Diego jota (F9) and Hirving Lozano (IWa as well as the times i've tried him in a IWs+WBa configuration) have performed very poorly. In particular, Lozano and whoever has played on the left wing generally recieves poor ratings, with him being usually uninvolved creating chances and not having too many chances on goal either. I've noticed that most of the time our attack flows through the right (usually a staggering 50% of our attacks go through the right, most of the time), which is odd as my playmaker is in the middle and i don't see a reason why our attacks would be more evenly distributed through both flanks. I think the performances of the left IW and the preferance of the right flank in offensive are correlated but i can't figure out how and how to fix it (or take advantage of it).

Finally, our performances have dropped comparing it to last seasons's, although we did overachieve last time finishing 4th in the league. Now with a better team (in terms of individuals) we are sitting 7th in december which is the predicted press league position, with a comfortable points difference to the 8th team. Nothing to suggest we are crumbling or anything but we definately are having a much harder time defending and creating chances.

PS. I didn't mention it, but i brought Illaix Moriba from Barcelona in the winter transfer window. This is him:

LQhh1cj.png

Initially i brought in a more of a medium/longer term idea, but injuries to both Coady and Lovren meant that i've had to slot in Dendocker in CB and i've tried Moriba in midfield with Odegaard and he has been pretty good. I though a Carrilero role might be too conservative for his qualities so that is why he's being played as a B2B.  If Coady's available, then Dendocker goes back to midfield as a Carrilero alongside Odegaard. I'll use him to give a more creative spark coming from the bench and allowing Odegaard to rest in certain games as i think he can play all Carrilero, Box To Box and Mezzala roles in midfield, before eventually he plays in the middle as a first choice starter alongside Martin Odegaard.

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