Trying to understand the game better and this happens

[craiigman]

It's been a number of years since I last managed to get anything going on FM, even though I monitor the forums and watch Rashidi on YouTube, I just haven't really got anywhere. I think up a way of playing, then when it doesn't work, I end up just quitting. But I want to enjoy the game. So I decided I would load up an FM Touch save to speed things along, and concentrate on the tactics first. I wanted to pick a team I didn't' know in a smaller league, and a team aimed around mid-table. The objective is simple: achieve the media predicted position.

The setup:

Predicted to finished 12th

The squad:

It looked fairly reasonable, the comparison screen did show a couple of issues, but when I check the players who will play they seemed skewed by players not going to play those type of roles. Example was defending, our heading was lowest in the league. But the CB's all had reasonable heading, above average, so must have been the full backs. While still important, not much I could do with budget.

First thing I done was select the best players from the team and put them into a reasonable line up:

This wouldn't work so I had to move around until bit more realistic.

A very simple 4231 that looked balanced on paper. Idea: TM support to hold up play for in coming AM and IF or on receiving end of W crosses. As my other striker was not TM suitable, I change to AF and put AM into support so he becomes the person playing in the AF and IF. Positive as I wanted a bit of urgency with attack and take more risks. Play out from back and distribute to BPD as he had good passing and vision attributes.

And you know what, things started very well, until they didn't, and then they really didn't

I know friendlies are just that, but the draw with Nordsjælland and win vs Heerenveen were positives. Then the league started well, took a defeat in cup vs lower division team which made me wonder, but then we hit back with 2 very impressive wins. Then this happened:

And that was the start of the downfall.

Running out of ideas and what to do, I ended up adding a bunch of TI's and have this:

Results are slowly picking up, got a win and a few draws.

And I sit exactly 12th in the league, the target.

But what did annoy me, and still does really. How can I start so well, playing free flowing football, then all of a sudden just stop like that. Even though I am now getting points all the games are very much the same. We end up with around 20 shots, them around half the amount, ends in a draw. My win was only because of a penalty. I got Zirkzee on loan from Bayern, he should be scoring at this level. But the stats:

 

So while yes I am achieving 12th which is the goal, I also don't understand why the start was so good, and the rest so bad.

Edited August 4, 2020 by craiigman

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, craiigman said:

So while yes I am achieving 12th which is the goal, I also don't understand why the start was so good, and the rest so bad

I cannot know if that's the reason in your case specifically, but it very often happens to people that they begin to struggle after an initial overachievement, because the opposition (AI) starts to play more cautiously against you thus denying you the space you previously had to take advantage of. They basically adapt to your team's increased reputation. Again, I cannot claim that's exactly the case here, just citing what I've heard from others on the forum.

[craiigman]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I cannot know if that's the reason in your case specifically, but it very often happens to people that they begin to struggle after an initial overachievement, because the opposition (AI) starts to play more cautiously against you thus denying you the space you previously had to take advantage of. They basically adapt to your team's increased reputation. Again, I cannot claim that's exactly the case here, just citing what I've heard from others on the forum.

I could certainly appreciate that into the 2nd half of the season and I have had this happen to me before. But I only went a few game at the start there. I've not experienced a run of form like that before either. It felt like that 1-1 game where they scored with their 1 shot the game just flipped on me (I know that's not true, not conspiracies here). 

[Experienced Defender]

All the help I can offer is sharing an opinion on your tactic(s) from my personal perspective. Anything else is beyond my competence. 

[HUNT3R]

9 hours ago, craiigman said:

I know friendlies are just that, but the draw with Nordsjælland and win vs Heerenveen were positives.

See you say you know and then immediately after, you state the opposite. Results mean nothing in friendlies. AI teams don't care about winning at all - they're just showing up to get some match fitness and tactical familiarity. Often the entire team is subbed off at half time and you won't see desperate comebacks, because there's no need to win or even try.

 

9 hours ago, craiigman said:

A very simple 4231 that looked balanced on paper. Idea: TM support to hold up play for in coming AM and IF or on receiving end of W crosses. As my other striker was not TM suitable, I change to AF and put AM into support so he becomes the person playing in the AF and IF. Positive as I wanted a bit of urgency with attack and take more risks. Play out from back and distribute to BPD as he had good passing and vision attributes.

You started with this, but you played 7 friendlies before the season started. Did you watch the matches to see if your newly created tactic is doing what you wanted it to do? That you defended as high/low as you wanted, engaged when you wanted, were aggressive/passive enough in tackling? Did you look at passing options, possible disconnects etc? Did you make any changes from how the tactic started to when the season started? You haven't indicated that you did, so I'm wondering how you decided that the tactic was good enough to start competitive matches with.

The reason I ask is because you don't mention this, but to me this is one of the most important times of the season - before it even starts. I know almost exactly what each instruction/role etc does and I still need 2 or 3 friendlies to tweak a tactic to be ready for the season. Even when the season starts, I'll still keep an eye on it and tweak as I spot more (but smaller) issues. I've never created a tactic that doesn't 'need' tweaking in pre-season and I don't think I'll ever be good enough to just create a perfect tactic from scratch, first time.

I'm a little surprised to see you using Iyoha at IF/A when Baku seems to be the better attacker, imo. Also a little surprised at the AM/A role for Jae-Sung when the player there is more of a creator and even has 'looks to pass first rather than attempting to score'. Khalifi on the right as a winger, but his crossing isn't great and his balance just poor. He also has decent long shots, passing and vision which to me may be a bit wasted there. Why not Tedorovic as your winger instead? He's a better crosser, much better balance and you have Ignjovski who is a solid right back and you can still have Neumann as backup right back.

What made you have Serra as a support Target Man, out of interest? He's obviously superb in the air, with Bravery, Aggression and Jumping Reach, but he also has fantastic Heading which could make him a real goal threat in the air and he's not fantastic in terms of passing and vision, so he may have been worth a punt as an Attack Duty striker instead? Especially considering you have more of a creative type of player behind him. That player could then either play in the IF/A or switch it to the attacking fullback or winger to cross for Serra?

Why is Tesker the BPD on that side of the defence? I haven't seen the tactic in action, but I would have imagined that with his longer passing, he'd pick out the CM/S or W/S better if he's on the right? Your DC can still pass to Tesker or the CM/D.

Did you have any issues down your left flank? Both players on attack duties could leave that quite open?

How much is your AM/A involved? With your slower build up from the back, I'm struggling to see him linking with the midfield at all, so you're hitting it to the flanks and swinging crosses in, I assume?

The matches themselves - you showed results, but how did they go? Did you get enough chances? Were you tight enough defensively? What was the context of those early matches? Were you dominant throughout? Were you defensive and not creating a lot until later in the match when the opposition changed to more attacking or more defensive? Early goals for/against? Late goals for/against? Did you make any changes based on how the match went or did you just keep the same setup for 90 mins?

The reason why I ask - starting tactics only do so much. You'll face opponents who are quite cautious/defensive. You'll face teams at a similar level to you. You'll face teams who are considered better than you and will be more adventurous/attacking. Then also. your opponents react to match events and the context. If you're getting the play and the starts/leads or if you're still good enough to hold onto a 0-0 against a better team - you have to remember you're a bottom half club. Most clubs think they're better than you. Tighten up a little toward the end of a match? Or be aware they may throw more players forward and have a counter attacking plan B? Or if it's a weaker team and it's 0-0, they may go even more defensive to hold onto it. Do you make changes at all then?

---

I'm ignoring the rest of the season and trying to focus on the start instead. The changes to the tactic, being THAT attacking and aggressive for a lower mid-table team, is just not going to be a practical solution and even if it somehow works short term, it's not going to last.

[sporadicsmiles]

What is actually happening in the matches? What type of goals do you concede and from what area of the pitch? How does play go and what is working or not working? It is difficult to say what is wrong otherwise. We can all sit and pick things apart tactically but it will not help unless it is actually addressing the issues you see. 

One thing I will note (because it stood out to me) is that your left flank is very attacking, and so your left DC needs to be the very best defender you have. Probably with as much anticipation and decisions as possible, because he is going to have to cover his position and the left back position quite often. Having the DLP have good defensive stats will help too. Now while I actually do not mind the flank (I love me a good attacking flank), I can see how it would cause you to concede if you are not careful. Especially with a positive mentality, which sees players race up the pitch in transitions. And not just from attacks down that flank. Attacks starting there will destabilise your entire defensive shape and can lead to goals from other areas too. The first thing I would do is check that you are defensively stable when put under pressure in this way. And if not, then find a way to mitigate it. You lose 0% of the games where you concede no goals. Oof I just noticed the BBM as well. You are putting huge strain and the DLP and the two CBs here. You need very good players to pull this off (good for the level).

Then for the attack, What is the plan to score goals? Always ask yourself this. Look at your players and think of two or three scenarios you want to regularly score goals from, based on what they do best. Then set up the attack to best achieve these goals. Thinking about who is creating space for whom, and who can use that space and how. Which sounds complicated but really is not. For example an AF(A) will keep DCs deep, which frees space in front of them. So your AP(S) should have enough time to be able to pick passes. In the second tactic I can see the onrushing BBM being a threat by running past the AP and getting a pass. It is not as easy as getting a great player and saying "well he is good, he should score". You need to work at creating chances for him to score. For example is Zirkee much quicker than the average defender? Then you want to draw the opposition in and get the ball forward quickly so he can run at defenders. Thinking like that helps. 

[craiigman]

On 04/08/2020 at 19:33, HUNT3R said:

See you say you know and then immediately after, you state the opposite. Results mean nothing in friendlies. AI teams don't care about winning at all - they're just showing up to get some match fitness and tactical familiarity. Often the entire team is subbed off at half time and you won't see desperate comebacks, because there's no need to win or even try.

 

You started with this, but you played 7 friendlies before the season started. Did you watch the matches to see if your newly created tactic is doing what you wanted it to do? That you defended as high/low as you wanted, engaged when you wanted, were aggressive/passive enough in tackling? Did you look at passing options, possible disconnects etc? Did you make any changes from how the tactic started to when the season started? You haven't indicated that you did, so I'm wondering how you decided that the tactic was good enough to start competitive matches with.

The reason I ask is because you don't mention this, but to me this is one of the most important times of the season - before it even starts. I know almost exactly what each instruction/role etc does and I still need 2 or 3 friendlies to tweak a tactic to be ready for the season. Even when the season starts, I'll still keep an eye on it and tweak as I spot more (but smaller) issues. I've never created a tactic that doesn't 'need' tweaking in pre-season and I don't think I'll ever be good enough to just create a perfect tactic from scratch, first time.

I'm a little surprised to see you using Iyoha at IF/A when Baku seems to be the better attacker, imo. Also a little surprised at the AM/A role for Jae-Sung when the player there is more of a creator and even has 'looks to pass first rather than attempting to score'. Khalifi on the right as a winger, but his crossing isn't great and his balance just poor. He also has decent long shots, passing and vision which to me may be a bit wasted there. Why not Tedorovic as your winger instead? He's a better crosser, much better balance and you have Ignjovski who is a solid right back and you can still have Neumann as backup right back.

What made you have Serra as a support Target Man, out of interest? He's obviously superb in the air, with Bravery, Aggression and Jumping Reach, but he also has fantastic Heading which could make him a real goal threat in the air and he's not fantastic in terms of passing and vision, so he may have been worth a punt as an Attack Duty striker instead? Especially considering you have more of a creative type of player behind him. That player could then either play in the IF/A or switch it to the attacking fullback or winger to cross for Serra?

Why is Tesker the BPD on that side of the defence? I haven't seen the tactic in action, but I would have imagined that with his longer passing, he'd pick out the CM/S or W/S better if he's on the right? Your DC can still pass to Tesker or the CM/D.

Did you have any issues down your left flank? Both players on attack duties could leave that quite open?

How much is your AM/A involved? With your slower build up from the back, I'm struggling to see him linking with the midfield at all, so you're hitting it to the flanks and swinging crosses in, I assume?

The matches themselves - you showed results, but how did they go? Did you get enough chances? Were you tight enough defensively? What was the context of those early matches? Were you dominant throughout? Were you defensive and not creating a lot until later in the match when the opposition changed to more attacking or more defensive? Early goals for/against? Late goals for/against? Did you make any changes based on how the match went or did you just keep the same setup for 90 mins?

The reason why I ask - starting tactics only do so much. You'll face opponents who are quite cautious/defensive. You'll face teams at a similar level to you. You'll face teams who are considered better than you and will be more adventurous/attacking. Then also. your opponents react to match events and the context. If you're getting the play and the starts/leads or if you're still good enough to hold onto a 0-0 against a better team - you have to remember you're a bottom half club. Most clubs think they're better than you. Tighten up a little toward the end of a match? Or be aware they may throw more players forward and have a counter attacking plan B? Or if it's a weaker team and it's 0-0, they may go even more defensive to hold onto it. Do you make changes at all then?

---

I'm ignoring the rest of the season and trying to focus on the start instead. The changes to the tactic, being THAT attacking and aggressive for a lower mid-table team, is just not going to be a practical solution and even if it somehow works short term, it's not going to last.

 

On 05/08/2020 at 08:15, sporadicsmiles said:

What is actually happening in the matches? What type of goals do you concede and from what area of the pitch? How does play go and what is working or not working? It is difficult to say what is wrong otherwise. We can all sit and pick things apart tactically but it will not help unless it is actually addressing the issues you see. 

One thing I will note (because it stood out to me) is that your left flank is very attacking, and so your left DC needs to be the very best defender you have. Probably with as much anticipation and decisions as possible, because he is going to have to cover his position and the left back position quite often. Having the DLP have good defensive stats will help too. Now while I actually do not mind the flank (I love me a good attacking flank), I can see how it would cause you to concede if you are not careful. Especially with a positive mentality, which sees players race up the pitch in transitions. And not just from attacks down that flank. Attacks starting there will destabilise your entire defensive shape and can lead to goals from other areas too. The first thing I would do is check that you are defensively stable when put under pressure in this way. And if not, then find a way to mitigate it. You lose 0% of the games where you concede no goals. Oof I just noticed the BBM as well. You are putting huge strain and the DLP and the two CBs here. You need very good players to pull this off (good for the level).

Then for the attack, What is the plan to score goals? Always ask yourself this. Look at your players and think of two or three scenarios you want to regularly score goals from, based on what they do best. Then set up the attack to best achieve these goals. Thinking about who is creating space for whom, and who can use that space and how. Which sounds complicated but really is not. For example an AF(A) will keep DCs deep, which frees space in front of them. So your AP(S) should have enough time to be able to pick passes. In the second tactic I can see the onrushing BBM being a threat by running past the AP and getting a pass. It is not as easy as getting a great player and saying "well he is good, he should score". You need to work at creating chances for him to score. For example is Zirkee much quicker than the average defender? Then you want to draw the opposition in and get the ball forward quickly so he can run at defenders. Thinking like that helps. 

Thank you both for the detailed replies. Have thought about what you have both said and this is what I have ended up with:

AM has roam and risky passes. No other PI's.

First game went well:

However ST struggled with chances he was getting, which for Serra it was crosses due to nature of Winger and FB. Very little came through the middle, which I don't mind too much as setup was to put them into the box for him. I did bring Zirkzee on as an AF at around 60 mins and he had even less chances, no one looking to play passes to him.

So the score looks good, and the general play did as well. Looked a bit shaky at times going other way, but better than has been. Issue left is getting good chances for the strikers.

edit: The board have just accepted a bid for Lee so this might not end up being too good

Edited August 6, 2020 by craiigman

[craiigman]

The very next game we struggle for a 1-1 draw vs team below us.

[Urotsukidoji]

If you are winning every game the ai will figure out your tactics. So you have to make a tactic that is good at attacking and defending. to break down teams, to defend from counter, to counter yourself.

Also lots of TIs work. and they work in combination. High defensive line works with pressing and counter cuz your pressing high up pitch etc and then add offside trap

Edited August 6, 2020 by Urotsukidoji

[HUNT3R]

29 minutes ago, Urotsukidoji said:

If you are winning every game the ai will figure out your tactics.

They won't 'figure out your tactics'. That's just a myth. They do adjust to be more defensive or attacking depending on factors like club rep, player rep, form and league position, but they're not going to specifically come up with a plan to counter your tactic.