Call for Discussion:Does Home Advantage Really Exist in FM?

[mister.cool40]

I really love this game.The level of immersion,value for money,timekilling ability,sense of achievement,freedom of choice this game gives is simply unmatched by any other game in the universe.The world building ability of this game is exceptional and the actual match engine,although can be improved upon,possesses the technical depth and complexity that in my opinion is really a marvel of gaming/simulation/computing/coding.However the one thing that drives me nuts is the supposed presence of Home Advantage.I really do FEEL Home Advantage exists in FM,that is the players get some sort of boost in attributes in home matches,or rather some sort of attributes penalty in away matches.

However many in the forum seem to disagree including some moderators.They argue that it is just a matter of team mentalities.In away matches AI mostly play cautiously and don't press high up the pitch.So it feels easy to play expressive/attacking football for Human players.In AI's home matches they take more risks and want to win the match at any cost.They close down/tight mark/hard tackle more so as a result Human team's attacking play seems to falter.Although this theory is very plausible I think there is more to it than just that.

For instance in many of AI's home matches they play cautiously ( low press and low mentality) when playing against superior teams of Human manager.But it is still not easy for the human manager to exert the same level of dominance like in home matches.There are less successful dribbles/passes,the attacking players are less effective and defenders are more prone to mistakes.There are less highlights for away team as well.Same goes for the situation when AI is playing on positive/attacking mentality in human manager's home ground.It is very easy to defend in home matches for the human manager despite AI playing an attacking game.

And for the times when AI plays cautiously in Human's home ground,shouldn't it be difficult to break them down? I mean it is far too easy to score at home even if the AI is defending with their lives. Even against teams better than human manager's,winning 2-0,3-0 is pretty common despite AI team playing cautiously.Winning the Champions league is most of the time  a cakewalk because how easy it is to defeat/destroy the AI in home matches.

In real life home teams generally perform way better than away teams.This is generally attributed to teams' mentalites (home team taking more risks,away team playing cautiously),crowd and familiar surroundings giving players confidence,rise of testosterone to protect territory etc.So it is understandable if SI is trying to replicate that in FM.However in many instances it makes the game too easy and sometimes unfair.It breaks immersion when you can play your B team against title rival at home and still win comfortably.It feels disappointing when both teams play on positive/attacking mentality yet classics like 4-3,6-4 rarely happen because the attackers from away teams almost always have bad games.

So I will be very intrigued to hear about you have to say about this.So please join,and give some thoughts on this.It would be massive if someone from authority can confirm if there is indeed some built in home advantage ( and the extent of this if it exists) in the ME.I think for very good + elite FMers  (the likes of Rashidi,Cleon and so many...) this home advantage/away disadvantage (say 10% boost or penalty) would be trivial because they are so good in reading the game and exploiting the opposition weakness.However for average FM players like me the supposed 10% boost or penalty feels massive and can make or break our tactic.

[HUNT3R]

There's a slight advantage when playing at home and it's to try and reflect what happens IRL. You won't get detail on how exactly that works or any more specific than slight.

You'll find the bigger factors are in how teams line up though. So if you're to investigate any issues, human or AI, that would be where to look.  

[steam just is]

The interesting thing is  the ambiguity in the game of home advantage does really reflect real life. Home advantage exists but noone actually knows why. Familiarity with the stadium, feeling strong  in your own home, the crowd, opposition caution are all listed as possible reasons but psychologists have never been able to find the real reason.

I think it’s best if the game doesn’t define why but keeps home advantage

[White Flag]

25 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

There's a slight advantage when playing at home and it's to try and reflect what happens IRL. You won't get detail on how exactly that works or any more specific than slight.

You'll find the bigger factors are in how teams line up though. So if you're to investigate any issues, human or AI, that would be where to look.  

What about games played at neutral venues, cup finals and the like? I may be wrong but it seems to me that the first named club, the 'home' team, has a greater chance of winning. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about this. Thanks.

[mister.cool40]

19 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

There's a slight advantage when playing at home and it's to try and reflect what happens IRL. You won't get detail on how exactly that works or any more specific than slight.

You'll find the bigger factors are in how teams line up though. So if you're to investigate any issues, human or AI, that would be where to look.  

Hmm....so it does exist.Still is remarkable how accurately overall home/away records in a league in FM reflect real life.But some away matches can get insanely difficult though...especially when they have world class forwards. I tried various combinations of tackling/marking /mentality /DL/LOE  yet they seem unstoppable.

[mister.cool40]

 

15 minutes ago, steam just is said:

The interesting thing is  the ambiguity in the game of home advantage does really reflect real life. Home advantage exists but noone actually knows why. Familiarity with the stadium, feeling strong  in your own home, the crowd, opposition caution are all listed as possible reasons but psychologists have never been able to find the real reason.

I think it’s best if the game doesn’t define why but keeps home advantage

I personally don't like the advantage though...

[mister.cool40]

7 minutes ago, White Flag said:

What about games played at neutral venues, cup finals and the like? I may be wrong but it seems to me that the first named club, the 'home' team, has a greater chance of winning. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about this. Thanks.

Funnily if you played FIFA the left sided controller seems to have the home advantage regardless of venue selection....

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, mister.cool40 said:

But some away matches can get insanely difficult though...especially when they have world class forwards.

So like real life sometimes.

4 minutes ago, mister.cool40 said:

I tried various combinations of tackling/marking /mentality /DL/LOE  yet they seem unstoppable.

That's one way to try and counter teams/forwards. The other is fielding players who are specifically chosen to deal with them. In my save now, there's one team with a giant at AML. 19 JR, fantastic crossing and pace. A monster. I fielded my centreback at right back to deal with him and keep him quiet. In another match, their key player was at AMC. I have a DMC, but he's my playmaker and though he is decent defensively speaking, his tackling (11) wasn't going to cope against a dribbler (17) so I fielded someone much more capable defensively, but with some playmaking skills. Worked a treat.

[mister.cool40]

6 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

So like real life sometimes.

That's one way to try and counter teams/forwards. The other is fielding players who are specifically chosen to deal with them. In my save now, there's one team with a giant at AML. 19 JR, fantastic crossing and pace. A monster. I fielded my centreback at right back to deal with him and keep him quiet. In another match, their key player was at AMC. I have a DMC, but he's my playmaker and though he is decent defensively speaking, his tackling (11) wasn't going to cope against a dribbler (17) so I fielded someone much more capable defensively, but with some playmaking skills. Worked a treat.

Full back really pose a complex situation.The guys that can contribute offensively are most of the time not good defenders.Many of the AI goal come from the situation where  AI tries a cross field pass and a forward from other side beats the full back to score a goal.

[mister.cool40]

17 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

So like real life sometimes.

That's one way to try and counter teams/forwards. The other is fielding players who are specifically chosen to deal with them. In my save now, there's one team with a giant at AML. 19 JR, fantastic crossing and pace. A monster. I fielded my centreback at right back to deal with him and keep him quiet. In another match, their key player was at AMC. I have a DMC, but he's my playmaker and though he is decent defensively speaking, his tackling (11) wasn't going to cope against a dribbler (17) so I fielded someone much more capable defensively, but with some playmaking skills. Worked a treat.

And in terms of dealing with individuals,how helpful are Opposition instructions? Sometimes it feels that when I am having problem against certain individual no combination seem to work.And sometimes even not using any can keep a guy at bay.

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, mister.cool40 said:

And in terms of dealing with individuals,how helpful are Opposition instructions?

Like any other instruction, it can help, but also can make things worse.

[mister.cool40]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Like any other instruction, it can help, but also can make things worse.

This game is so complicated most of the time I feel giving up.Yet somehow I always end up giving it a go again.Honestly I think it would take at least 12-15 years to completely understand how everything works.I am amazed how this game manages to give a mostly realistic experience even after all those layers of complexity and with the scope of players screwing it up with nonsensical formations,TI,PI and OIs.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, mister.cool40 said:

This game is so complicated most of the time I feel giving up.Yet somehow I always end up giving it a go again.Honestly I think it would take at least 12-15 years to completely understand how everything works.I am amazed how this game manages to give a mostly realistic experience even after all those layers of complexity and with the scope of players screwing it up with nonsensical formations,TI,PI and OIs.

Well,

"Playing football is very simple, but playing simple football is the hardest thing there is" - Johan Cruyff

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, steam just is said:

Home advantage exists but noone actually knows why. 

I think the biggest contributing factors are about decently understood by people actually earning money off of this, e.g. Matthew Benham and Company. He had argued that travel distance can also be a thing IIRC, hence why odds look a little different in the MLS, plus it isn't super rare for even the winner of the conference to have a negative away record (Portland Timbers WDL 4 4 9 in 2017, for instance).

That's something that doesn't appear modelled into the game, as the MLS (Brasileira too) unlike actual Football doesn't appear much different from the rest.

[zyfon5]

2 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

Funnily if you played FIFA the left sided controller seems to have the home advantage regardless of venue selection....

i think this is down to human factor though since most people read from left to right. This kind of perspective advantage is also speculated in games like DOTA where the radiant side has a slight advantage over the dire side due to the human perspective in game.

[mister.cool40]

54 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

i think this is down to human factor though since most people read from left to right. This kind of perspective advantage is also speculated in games like DOTA where the radiant side has a slight advantage over the dire side due to the human perspective in game.

Not sure I meant that 😂

[USASoundersFan]

8 hours ago, steam just is said:

The interesting thing is  the ambiguity in the game of home advantage does really reflect real life. Home advantage exists but noone actually knows why. Familiarity with the stadium, feeling strong  in your own home, the crowd, opposition caution are all listed as possible reasons but psychologists have never been able to find the real reason.

I think it’s best if the game doesn’t define why but keeps home advantage

"Home-field advantage has long been far more significant in soccer than in most other sports. The great, unwelcome experiment running in Germany since May has demonstrated that what constitutes that advantage is not mere familiarity but, largely, the fans. The performances of home teams in the Bundesliga have, for all intents and purposes, collapsed in front of empty stands. The number of home victories slipped by 10 percentage points, to 33 percent of matches in empty stadiums from 43 percent in full ones."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/sports/soccer/soccer-without-fans-germany-data.html?campaign_id=51&emc=edit_MBE_p_20200702&instance_id=19939&nl=morning-briefing&regi_id=56380504&section=whatElse&segment_id=32405&te=1&user_id=f095570404e1c0e1d6f5bfa2514f07b0

[mister.cool40]

4 minutes ago, USASoundersFan said:

"Home-field advantage has long been far more significant in soccer than in most other sports. The great, unwelcome experiment running in Germany since May has demonstrated that what constitutes that advantage is not mere familiarity but, largely, the fans. The performances of home teams in the Bundesliga have, for all intents and purposes, collapsed in front of empty stands. The number of home victories slipped by 10 percentage points, to 33 percent of matches in empty stadiums from 43 percent in full ones."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/sports/soccer/soccer-without-fans-germany-data.html?campaign_id=51&emc=edit_MBE_p_20200702&instance_id=19939&nl=morning-briefing&regi_id=56380504&section=whatElse&segment_id=32405&te=1&user_id=f095570404e1c0e1d6f5bfa2514f07b0

The refereeing is also significantly influenced by crowd noise.Decisions tend to favour the home team.Away teams pick up more yellows etc etc.

 

[USASoundersFan]

2 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

The refereeing is also significantly influenced by crowd noise.Decisions tend to favour the home team.Away teams pick up more yellows etc etc.

 

Yeah, that article mentioned that too.

"In the 83 matches Gracenote analyzed, home teams were penalized more for fouls in empty stadiums than they generally were when the stands were full. They also had seen, perhaps not surprisingly, an increase in the number of yellow cards they were awarded."

[Svenc]

Yeah, the current climate may make for an interesting long-term experiment.

That said, that's still a reasonably small sample size. Back when the vanishing spray was introduced prior to free kicks, the number of free kick goals in the BL went up for months. Naturally, the spray had to be the cause -- only that the number of goals went back down again. And as some had noted, the Bundesliga had sported a statistical anomaly of only 30% home wins early in the Season with the high point being match day #6 (8 away wins). And that was in front of crowds still.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out over the longer term for sure… Recently read an article about how bookies had to adapt to the new environment too.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Svenc

[Spanner]

I can say that from my experience:

1. Playing at home in Europe ...yes, a big advantage.
2. Playing at home in the league ....hmmm....a small advatange.
3. Playing at home in domestic cup games...yes, a nice advantage.

That is a brief answer to your question. 

In summary, yes there is an advantage and if you can score 1st ....a massive advantage.

enjoy playing at home  

Edited July 16, 2020 by Spanner
miss-spelling of big (bit)

[mister.cool40]

27 minutes ago, Spanner said:

I can say that from my experience:

1. Playing at home in Europe ...yes, a big advantage.
2. Playing at home in the league ....hmmm....a small advatange.
3. Playing at home in domestic cup games...yes, a nice advantage.

That is a brief answer to your question. 

In summary, yes there is an advantage and if you can score 1st ....a massive advantage.

enjoy playing at home  

Playing at home is indeed really enjoyable...the level of football becomes majestic.That said,there is nothing like beating title rivals in their own backyard 😃

😎😎

[Cal585]

10 hours ago, USASoundersFan said:

"The number of home victories slipped by 10 percentage points, to 33 percent of matches in empty stadiums from 43 percent in full ones."

Interesting considering The Athletic posted a piece last week saying that Premier League games since the restart were still sitting exactly the same at 46% win ratio for the home team.

They also said that the data was representative of the start of the season where teams are still working out what they're doing and goals are down which makes sense.

Will be interesting to see how the data shapes up as samples increase and will be interesting to see if allowing some fans back in will change things.