Help needed: The Wide AP (A)

[beverage1982]

Hey all,

So after much tactical consternation I've finally got my head down and got a few seasons into a VIlla save. @Experienced Defender has given me multiple pointers that have helped me build a good starting tactic but now that I'm starting to evolve into a new team I'm struggling a little. 

It's mainly down to two reasons:

1) I want to build my team around Grealish and McGinn. Grealish has performed best for me as an AP (A) which is a role I've never used out wide before so I am learning how to use it. McGinn I just can't get to function properly.

2) Recruitment. I ended up buying players I liked rather than players that would fit around these players. Principally this has led me to have a tonne of playmaker types in midfield alongside targetmen as strikers and Jarrod Bowen on the right (a  narrow option when I probably need a wide one). 

The tactic

In the screenshot you'll see what I'm currently working with. Now I know that I have a couple of issues here. Firstly there is a distinct lack of penetration and also that I'm very narrow. I realize this is a case of me fitting roles to players rather than building a sound tactic. The end result is a bit of a mess. Often our attacks develop far too slowly and we're giving opposition a chance to get back into defensive shape (I can't diagnose this). We also don't cross enough for my liking (that narrowness I mentioned) and we take too many long shots or hold the ball for too long, passing side to side. 

The problem(s)

1. The AP (A) suits Jack perfectly though the knock on effect of this is that the rest of the tactic needs to built around him. That means the striker on support won't be doing anything for us and the holding midfielder (car) is taking away from our central thrust. Problem is my recruitment has hamstrung me here. How do I make the most of a targetman when I can't play him as a targetman? 

 

2. The McGinn problem. I just can't get him to perform consistently well for me. I've played him as a CM(a) and Mezz(a) and he just doesn't score. This partly due to his lack of pace / acceleration (11 I think) and also his trait (Comes Deep to get the ball - in fact my entire midfield has this). As a result how do I get him to be a cosnistent long shot threat and make the space for him to succeed? 

Possible solutions

I'm genuinely stumped. The one option I thought of was to continue to use the Targetman with Jack as an AP(A), but then use Bowen as a (IF(a) on the other side with a more support orientated midfield. The problem is this feels very one dimensional and counter to just about every 4141 (D) I've sen on the forums for a while. 

In conclusion 

I'm rambling. But hopefully I've explained my tactical woes somewhat. It's a problem of my own creation for sure and it's taught me a lot about recruiting for a system rather than just buying players you like. Any help would be greatly appreciated team! 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

While McGinn is a good player - and I really like that type of midfielders - I can hardly see him as a mezzala on attack duty. But I absolutely can see him as a CM on attack or BBM (assuming you want him as a runner from deep, as opposed to a holding or covering CM). 

The left side (including the carrilero) looks good in terms of roles and duties. But the right flank could be problematic due to a lack of attacking width. If you want an inside-oriented role in AMR, then the fullback should be a bit more attack-minded (preferably WBsu in this particular setup). But given that McGinn is likely to struggle as an attacking mezzala - which I already mentioned - the most obvious solution IMHO would be to play him as a CM on attack and Bowen as a winger on support. In such a setup, Guilbert would absolutely make sense as a FB on support (his current role and duty).

Last but not least, given that you use an AP on attack duty out wide, the lone striker should also be on attack duty. Two roles would make most sense as far as I am concerned - either PF on attack or DLF on attack (depending on what type of player your striker is). TM on attack duty, on the other hand, would likely struggle when played as a lone striker, simply due to the nature of the role. 

When it comes to instructions (including the mentality), I fear they might be a bit too ambitious for a team of Villa's reputation and strength. On top of that, looking at your tactic as whole, it's hard to figure out what is your intended style of play?

[beverage1982]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

While McGinn is a good player - and I really like that type of midfielders - I can hardly see him as a mezzala on attack duty. But I absolutely can see him as a CM on attack or BBM (assuming you want him as a runner from deep, as opposed to a holding or covering CM). 

The left side (including the carrilero) looks good in terms of roles and duties. But the right flank could be problematic due to a lack of attacking width. If you want an inside-oriented role in AMR, then the fullback should be a bit more attack-minded (preferably WBsu in this particular setup). But given that McGinn is likely to struggle as an attacking mezzala - which I already mentioned - the most obvious solution IMHO would be to play him as a CM on attack and Bowen as a winger on support. In such a setup, Guilbert would absolutely make sense as a FB on support (his current role and duty).

Last but not least, given that you use an AP on attack duty out wide, the lone striker should also be on attack duty. Two roles would make most sense as far as I am concerned - either PF on attack or DLF on attack (depending on what type of player your striker is). TM on attack duty, on the other hand, would likely struggle when played as a lone striker, simply due to the nature of the role. 

When it comes to instructions (including the mentality), I fear they might be a bit too ambitious for a team of Villa's reputation and strength. On top of that, looking at your tactic as whole, it's hard to figure out what is your intended style of play?

Thank you sir! Always appreciated.

Style of play is my biggest challenge at the moment. Put simply I can't define it. I like fast counter attacking football, I like crosses into the box, but I also like the build up to be short and probing rather than direct.

The instructions on the screenshot are actually part fo a side experiment I'm doing to learn more about LOE and DLine, while also stripping out as many TIs as I can. 

I think looking at the presets...I would like a more proactive version of the fluid counter. I'm three seasons in now with 2 5th place finishes under my belt so teams are starting to defend against me (hence positive). But defensively we are suspect, which is guess what you're alluding to. 

Also I'm intrigued, do you think there's anyway to use Bowen in the AMR as a goalscoring threat? He ha a host of PIs that made me think he could be on support and still get in the box, but if I put hium on attack I guess I'd need to change Grealish to a more supporting role on the left? I actually have toyed with him as an IW(s) occasionally which seems to suit him. 
 

Edited July 6, 2020 by beverage1982

[04texag]

I look at the left flank and don't like the roles and duties. I would want freakish to have plenty of space, and then something to do with the ball.

A carrilero won't get as far forward as a Mez, but he's designed to drift wide. So on the left you have an AP trying to find space to get the ball, but Car and the WB are both moving towards his area, potentially crowding him out. Let's say through passing and good possession he does get it, what's grealish going to do. His options all seem like risky passes to me, either crossfield balls or to the TM, who is likely to be heavily marked bc of his role/position and no one attacking the defense from the left. 

I'd try a fullback or IWB on support on the left. Won't push as high up. For the midfielder I'd try a BBM to give grealish a runner to lay through balls in for. Also can arrive late to the box for the TM to lay balls off for. 

Or a CMs with some custom pis.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

Also I'm intrigued, do you think there's anyway to use Bowen in the AMR as a goalscoring threat? He ha a host of PIs that made me think he could be on support and still get in the box, but if I put hium on attack I guess I'd need to change Grealish to a more supporting role on the left? I actually have toyed with him as an IW(s) occasionally which seems to suit him

Can you post a screenshot of Bowen's profile? 

[beverage1982]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Can you post a screenshot of Bowen's profile? 

Sure thing! 

[Experienced Defender]

57 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Sure thing! 

Well, looking at his profile, I don't see any reason why he couldn't be a goalscoring threat. He has both attributes and traits to serve that purpose. I guess IF on attack duty (AMR) would be the most logical choice for his role. But that would certainly require tweaking some other roles and duties in your tactic. 

[beverage1982]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, looking at his profile, I don't see any reason why he couldn't be a goalscoring threat. He has both attributes and traits to serve that purpose. I guess IF on attack duty (AMR) would be the most logical choice for his role. But that would certainly require tweaking some other roles and duties in your tactic. 

Yeah that's what I'm trying to juggle right now. I was thinking of switching the CM (a) and the Car in midfield then changing Grealish to IWs, but would he then get in the way of the CM a? 

I guess I'd need a striker dropping deep to enable the IF to run beyond too

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Yeah that's what I'm trying to juggle right now. I was thinking of switching the CM (a) and the Car in midfield then changing Grealish to IWs, but would he then get in the way of the CM a?

I personally haven't tried to pair an IW on support with a CM on attack, but I know that Rashidi has a tactic (at least one) in which such a combo works nicely (IWsu and CMat). So you definitely can try it out. But also pay attention to your RB role (remember what I told you about attacking width in my first reply). 

 

4 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

I guess I'd need a striker dropping deep to enable the IF to run beyond too

Usually yes, but not necessarily. If you want more of a counter-attacking or fast-attacking style, then DLF on attack duty can be a good choice. 

[beverage1982]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

I personally haven't tried to pair an IW on support with a CM on attack, but I know that Rashidi has a tactic (at least one) in which such a combo works nicely (IWsu and CMat). So you definitely can try it out. But also pay attention to your RB role (remember what I told you about attacking width in my first reply). 

 

Usually yes, but not necessarily. If you want more of a counter-attacking or fast-attacking style, then DLF on attack duty can be a good choice. 

Thanks as always for the thoughts. How would something like this look for my counter attacking tactic that tried to use Bowen as a goalscorer and Grealish as a wide creator? 

Defensive set up is because we are weakest down the flanks, so trying to funnel opposition into the middle. Then in attack I guess the only 'weird' TI here is "Lower tempo" which I put on as my team is slow, and doesn't have the best decision making. Possibly a little too passive? 

[Experienced Defender]

26 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Then in attack I guess the only 'weird' TI here is "Lower tempo" which I put on as my team is slow, and doesn't have the best decision making

Well, if you want to play counter-attacking football, then lower tempo definitely does not make sense. Btw, when you say your team is slow, does it apply to your forwards as well or just your players on average?

[beverage1982]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, if you want to play counter-attacking football, then lower tempo definitely does not make sense. Btw, when you say your team is slow, does it apply to your forwards as well or just your players on average?

Well the striker is definitely slow...a big targetman type. Bowen is fast, Grealish average I'd say but can obviously carry the ball. BTW I've been using the modified version of the AP tactic and still getting 6.5's across the board for McGinn, I think I may just have to give up on him as a goalscorer. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by beverage1982

[Experienced Defender]

What about Grealish as an AP on attack duty, but in MCL instead of AML?

[beverage1982]

So this where I am currently. I feel the direct attacking play gets the most out of our big striker and creates some good looking football, the only problem is the defence. We regularly concede 15-22 shots a game, even against poor opposition. I'm also conceding a lot of goals, mostly from longshots - especially one fullback crossing to the other to score from the corner of the 18 yard box.

I must admit I've tried a multitude of defensive settings on FM20 but with no real success. Obviously Villa aren't great, but I've made some solid additions and I'd hope to cut out these silly kinds of goals. Do I need to push my Dline up as my defence isn;t good enoug? 

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

the only problem is the defence. We regularly concede 15-22 shots a game, even against poor opposition. I'm also conceding a lot of goals, mostly from longshots - especially one fullback crossing to the other to score from the corner of the 18 yard box

Try the Get stuck in instead of more urgent pressing and change the CMsu (MCL) into a BWMsu (I guess Douglas should fit the role nicely). Because with both the fullback and wide fwd on the left flank being attack-minded, you need a more holding or covering type of CM there than is CM on support. 

 

8 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

Do I need to push my Dline up as my defence isn;t good enoug?

If your defense is not good (enough), then pushing DL higher is likely to cause even more troubles (logically thinking).

Be also careful with the Run at defence. If your players are not good enough running with the ball, then it can also lead to your attacks being intercepted and you consequently get counter-attacked. Remember, team instructions affect all players (except for those who have the opposite PIs hard-coded or manually added).

[beverage1982]

On 07/07/2020 at 07:59, Experienced Defender said:

Try the Get stuck in instead of more urgent pressing and change the CMsu (MCL) into a BWMsu (I guess Douglas should fit the role nicely). Because with both the fullback and wide fwd on the left flank being attack-minded, you need a more holding or covering type of CM there than is CM on support. 

 

If your defense is not good (enough), then pushing DL higher is likely to cause even more troubles (logically thinking).

Be also careful with the Run at defence. If your players are not good enough running with the ball, then it can also lead to your attacks being intercepted and you consequently get counter-attacked. Remember, team instructions affect all players (except for those who have the opposite PIs hard-coded or manually added).

Losing my mind trying to make this work. have tried changing McGinn's role, changing the striker role, pushing Dline up, moving to positive, adjusting width. nothing seems to get the desired results. I can only assume his "Comes deep t get the ball" makes him entirely unable to play a box to box or Cm A role. 
 

I guess pushing up the mentality is probably my best hope of a solution, would that be right? @Experienced Defender / @Rashidi any help would be greatly appreciated before the laptop goes out the window. At this point I don;t even want to win anymore, I just want to get Mcginn and Grealish to play well in the same game

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

I can only assume his "Comes deep t get the ball" makes him entirely unable to play a box to box or Cm A role

In my Bournemouth save (back in FM19), I played Lewis Cook who has that same trait (comes deep) as a CM on attack duty. I made him a quasi-PM by adding PIs such as take more risks and roam from position. He essentially acted as a creative BBM and was my best and most consistent player along with Ake. Now, my tactic was different from yours (including the formation) and Cook is a different type of player from McGinn (although not entirely different btw). But anyway, I gave you this example in relation to your question about the Comes deep trait. 

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

I guess pushing up the mentality is probably my best hope of a solution, would that be right? @Experienced Defender / @Rashidi any help would be greatly appreciated before the laptop goes out the window. At this point I don;t even want to win anymore, I just want to get Mcginn and Grealish to play well in the same game

I would prefer to leave this part to Rashidi, as he is definitely better in the game than me 

[beverage1982]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

In my Bournemouth save (back in FM19), I played Lewis Cook who has that same trait (comes deep) as a CM on attack duty. I made him a quasi-PM by adding PIs such as take more risks and roam from position. He essentially acted as a creative BBM and was my best and most consistent player along with Ake. Now, my tactic was different from yours (including the formation) and Cook is a different type of player from McGinn (although not entirely different btw). But anyway, I gave you this example in relation to your question about the Comes deep trait. 

Good to know. It's crazy as I don't think I'm asking the impossible of my team...my aim is in fact pretty modest. I'm just baffled that I can't make it work.

After reading RTHerringbone's old Villa thread I'm wondering if upping mentality is the answer. But then comes a. Entirely different kettle of defensive fish to deal with.

Thanks for the continued help BTW. Hugely appreciated! Also Lewis Cook...what a player. 

[Experienced Defender]

25 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Good to know. It's crazy as I don't think I'm asking the impossible of my team...my aim is in fact pretty modest. I'm just baffled that I can't make it work.

After reading RTHerringbone's old Villa thread I'm wondering if upping mentality is the answer

Believe me or not, I played on the Balanced mentality almost all the time and it did not affect Cook in a negative way by any means. To the contrary, he was assisting, scoring and making key passes on a pretty regular basis. 

[beverage1982]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Believe me or not, I played on the Balanced mentality almost all the time and it did not affect Cook in a negative way by any means. To the contrary, he was assisting, scoring and making key passes on a pretty regular basis. 

Good to know. I've clearly angered the FM gods in some way 😉

My other two ideas are tempo...maybe if I slow things down it will give us time to get up the pitch.... Or Jack. Having him as a playmaker, particularly on attack, means we're always getting the ball to him rather than looking for McGinn?

[beverage1982]

Just bumping this to see if anyone has any ideas? 

[Bitner]

For what i've seen, you still have only Bowen doing some work at the right side. You'll need some help  from the fullback, i'd try switching him to FB(A), as he would sometimes overlap Bowen and create some advantage situations to you, even tho it might be risky.

For me, early crosses and gols coming frrom midfield aren't helping each other, if your full back cross early, how do you expect their box to be packed enough to be a threat?

Cheers,
Bitner